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One can only hope.
fiatboomer on February 26, 2008 at 11:32 PM
The Turks dabble with fire.
BL@KBIRD on February 26, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Reminds me greatly of the way the King James Bible came into being. Of course, Turkish Muslims will still burn in hell alongside American atheists.
highhopes on February 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM
Good news…especially for Turkey’s potential entry into the EU.
Not too much hope for this impulse to spread to Saudi Arabia, Iran, and like minded places, however.
The_Freeze on February 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM
I think we can predict conservative Turkish reaction… and the likely reaction of our
friendsthe Saudis (or at least the more radical wahabists in that kingdom).“There will be blood.”
darkpixel on February 26, 2008 at 11:41 PM
This should look good on the Turks next membership application to get in the European Union.
c3ichief on February 26, 2008 at 11:42 PM
You were alive in 1611?
Frankly, I don’t see how anyone can not see this is a huge positive.
p0s3r on February 26, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Onto which mosque door are they nailing this ?
SouthernGent on February 26, 2008 at 11:43 PM
Well then why not enlighten us, smartypants.
highhopes on February 26, 2008 at 11:44 PM
You can take your god who burns people in hell for not believing in his invisible blood sacrifice demanding ass and shove it up your own.
peski on February 26, 2008 at 11:45 PM
The Reformation was less about changing the interpretation of what was written down but more about getting The Word back into the hands of the people and letting them read it for themselves and not just doing what the Pope or the Bishops told them to do or simply trusting them as to what was written.
- The Cat
MirCat on February 26, 2008 at 11:48 PM
The first was a big enough mistake…
JeffreyLloyd on February 26, 2008 at 11:49 PM
This is not good news. It is gesture politics of a strain so fraudulent, reluctant and barely relevant (to Islam) that only someone who is desperate to believe in it could believe in it.
If upholding the sanctity of the Two Winnable Wars requires flooding Europe with 70 million Turks then bye bye Western world.
aengus on February 26, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Looks like this post might reach 500 comments.
fiatboomer on February 26, 2008 at 11:50 PM
Some of my HA friends may enjoy reading this article on “Abrogation in Islam.”
ColtsFan on February 26, 2008 at 11:51 PM
This will interesting to watch as it plays out.
AbaddonsReign on February 26, 2008 at 11:52 PM
I don’t care what some of you think. The fact that a group is attempting to bring the Hadiths into the 21st century I find as hopeful.
p0s3r on February 26, 2008 at 11:53 PM
In the days of the reformation, most people were illiterate. That’s not what the fracture was about.
AbaddonsReign on February 26, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Nah, I got it out of my system.
Correct. On some levels a true religious revolution, and in many ways a true political revolution. The Roman Church at that time was as much a political institution as anything else.
peski on February 26, 2008 at 11:54 PM
A Turkish interpretation and an Arab interpretation.
Great.
What razor sharp journalist likens this to a reformation?
I read the article. Total fluff piece, per BBC usual.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:01 AM
I’ll take any hope we can get.
Limerick on February 27, 2008 at 12:01 AM
It looks like a little tinkering with some minor women related issues on traveling alone and such. Eyewash for the EU.
And it is hadiths , not the Qu’ran they are dealing with.
I hope they resurrect the woman vs. male co-worker breast suckling fatwa. I liked Islam for a fleeting moment with that one.
BL@KBIRD on February 27, 2008 at 12:01 AM
To copy the name of a movie. “There will be blood”
conservnut on February 27, 2008 at 12:04 AM
OT,
John Gibson, in his 2nd hour of todays raido show, made made mention of Hot Air blogging the Koran.
Especially the latest one.
jharada on February 27, 2008 at 12:06 AM
If the laws of logic (law of non-contradiction) are not universal and invariate, then they are conventional.
If the laws of logic are conventional in nature, then they can be broken at a moment’s notice and we are left with arbitrary human opinion.
If the laws of logic are conventional in nature, and can be broken even by God, say (using the article) the Islamic God, then we are left with the real possibility of an arbitrary, capricious evil deity.
The Islamic doctrine of abrogation is an open epistemological invitation of Evil for the followers of Islam.
ColtsFan on February 27, 2008 at 12:06 AM
There’s that word “hope” again.
As if the Turkish State can somehow just go *poof*, and the moslem world is in the 21st century in the time it takes to get through a 30 minute episode of “Friends”.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:07 AM
So once again which Muslim extremists get their interpretation of the religion from Turkish schools?
freevillage on February 27, 2008 at 12:07 AM
Islam needs to join the modern world. There has to be a first step. This is a positive thing.
joewm315 on February 27, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Will the new Koran’s come with a pistol pointed at your head?
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Ah, Islam & Hijackers. Like chocolate and peanut-butter.
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Here is a place that dissects the Qu’ran with a bit of humor.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm
BL@KBIRD on February 27, 2008 at 12:16 AM
As long as they don’t show up at my door handing out religious pamphlets or hang out in airports and train stations and karaoke bars trying to convert me.
Until then, I would rather keep this an Islam Free Zone.
Kini on February 27, 2008 at 12:16 AM
What does logic mean?
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:16 AM
And how long does it take to get through a 30-min. episode of Friends?
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:18 AM
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:15 AM
I paused at that sentence too.
So typical.
IMHO, the true context would be:
The argument is that Islamic tradition has been gradually hijacked by various –
often conservativeoften secular – cultures, seeking to use the religion for various forms of social control.Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:19 AM
What’s wrong with hoping that this drives a stick in the eye of the Saudis?
p0s3r on February 27, 2008 at 12:20 AM
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:18 AM
LOL
It would probably take me about 30 minutes.
I don’t know, since I’ve never seen it.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:21 AM
Yeah, we noticed.
The reformation was about a change in beliefs but was used to wrest power from the church back to the kings, the result was a testament to the violence of the people willing to perpetrate on the European continent to keep it or take it away.
The Turks can construct a reformed Koran but will other Muslims accept it?
Speakup on February 27, 2008 at 12:22 AM
The foundations of all logic rest on the law of non-contradiction (LNC):
“A cannot be not-A at the same time and in the same relationship.”
So I was using “logic” in the sense of the LNC.
The relevance of my comment above is that any excitement over “Islamic reformation” must be tempered with the somber understanding of the Islamic doctrine of abrogation, cited earlier.
I am not trying to be a pessimist here, only pointing out the madness that results from that doctrine of confusion and epistemological relativism.
ColtsFan on February 27, 2008 at 12:22 AM
NEW! ISLAM LIGHT. HALF THE CAR BOMBS, ALL THE VIRGINS!
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:22 AM
God loves you despite the opinion of everybody else, including me.
highhopes on February 27, 2008 at 12:23 AM
AHHHH. This is what we got in trade for letting the Turks invade Kurdistan.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:24 AM
I’m not sure. I think that it’s more like the religion hijacks the people, tapping into their violent tendencies, rather than that violent people tap into the religion. Call it (to mix two Dawkinsisms) “the Selfish Meme”.
As for Friends, I couldn’t say how long it takes to watch an episode, as I’ve never actually gotten through one.
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:24 AM
A 30 minute episode of Friends without commercials would take about 22 minutes.
BL@KBIRD on February 27, 2008 at 12:24 AM
Once a moon-worsbhipping fascist death cult,
always a moon-worshipping fascist feath cult
yawn………..
Janos Hunyadi on February 27, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were truly “hopeful”, as in “hopeful”.
So we see the same outcome, except I haven’t the fondness for it, like you do.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:29 AM
The Hadiths are not the “word of Allah” (located in the Koran, only) so why these random collections of bizarre folklore were ever treated as sacred is symptomatic of the irrationality of Mohammedans.
They should void them all completely, since they contain the worst that Islam has to offer, and do not have the imprimatur of “Allah’s transmission”.
Just a mess of medieval maliciousness.
Then they can get to work on civilizing the Koran’s dismal dogmas.
profitsbeard on February 27, 2008 at 12:29 AM
This was probably conditional to join the European Union. They haven’t been admitted yet, right? They had better let those bastards in cause they own the Med and all those shipping lanes.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:31 AM
But you seemed to be getting at something bigger, and I remember a few days ago you proposed that the existence of logic necessitated the existence of God.
Now, I certainly have no problem with God and I’m no atheist. But I don’t see it. (I’m also just a simple dude.) I mean, what is logic but a pattern of how the mind works? Why can’t A be not-A at the same time and in the same relationship? Because the mind says no.
How we actually act depends on this kind of thinking. But it isn’t proof. Similarly, we act (I believe) as though there is either an omnipotent god or at least some kind of universal standard we’ll be liable to after this death. But that isn’t proof either.
And then, what is proof except that which convinces? To be sure is simply to be sine cura (“without care” as to the truthfulness of an idea.
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:31 AM
Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on February 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 12:24 AM
Maybe.
But, much like the inquisitions in Christian Europe, it was the secular state that used religion to subjugate.
Religion at it soul, belongs to the people. The movers and shakers that concern themselves with power, controlling trade and moving armies, use religion to intimidate, motivate and subjugate. Its the same the world over.
Religion in itself is an attempt to lift the human animal from its pitiful condition.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM
By itself this may not amount to all that much. Taken together with this, http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JA15Ak03.html, sort of like the dead sea scrolls of the Koran, I’m maybe beginning to feel the very first stirrings of
hope, ok, guarded optimism. Maybe if enough reform-minded Muslims (and a huge contingent of the world’s best body-guards) could occupy the same place at the same time for long enough, something might come of all this. But I can be awfully naive at times.smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 12:38 AM
The fundamental change is that burkhas will now be allowed to come in pastels …
lgdaub on February 27, 2008 at 12:40 AM
profitsbeard
A good Muslim will pose a question about a verse in the Qu’ran, he will then consult with other Muslims and refer to hadiths (anecdotes and sayings attributed to Mohammed) that explain the “practical” way that the alleged prophet Mohammed acted on or implemented or spoke of this verse in his daily life.
Some hadith are strong and some are weak in acceptance among Muslims. In essence they are what and how Mohammed did about what the Qu’ran said.
BL@KBIRD on February 27, 2008 at 12:41 AM
And then you can chop heads with legal religious alacrity.
BL@KBIRD on February 27, 2008 at 12:43 AM
Is this blog no longer being patrolled by the “your comment is being reviewed for moderation” police, or did this bit of vitriol (I give a rating of 8 on Kos-ter scale) just not contain any of the right key-words? And don’t start up with me–I’m Jewish and I don’t have dog in this fight. I just know offensive when I see it, and that was offensive.
smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 12:44 AM
Good thing Hotair isn’t hosted out of Europe, cause they’d probably kick in every one of our doors.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:46 AM
You are correct.
I did not mention the “bigger picture” because I did not want to “hijack” this thread and veer off-topic.
My sole purpose here was to point out that Islam maintains a very controversial and dangerous view of the immaterial laws of logic, thus giving rise to an evil and capricious demon God.
Again, I do not want to hijack this thread.
But here is “some midnight philosophical snack”:
the laws of logic are universal, immaterial, atemporal, and a-causal. They are also known as or called “abstract entities.” That is, the LNC and the laws of logic have no causal powers whatsoever. The laws of logic can’t force me to think them. The laws of logic do not force themselves on us. They exist, and they exist necessarily. In short, they are necessary truths.
Yet our human minds possess these laws of logic in our thinking, whether we are in outer space, another country, another time zone, or wherever. The laws of logic are the foundation of rationality. This leads to a pressing question:
how do our human minds “latch onto” (or “connect”) these immaterial abstract entities known as the laws of logic?
It is a tough philosophical question that has haunted philosophy for ages. And I have an answer.
If you are just a “simple dude”, and not a boring philosophy type like me, then at least you have a personality. Us philosophy types like myself are kinda dry and uninteresting folks…:-)
The short answer is that the immaterial laws of logic cannot be reduced to brain waves, C-fibers, psychological laws, or laws of sociology.
They are in a sui generis class by themselves.
I am trying to be charitable to others here.
But, tomorrow, if Allahpundit reads this, and has no problem, then maybe I can go into more detail on my answers.
Is that cool with you?
Take care for now, and thanks for the excellent questions my friend,
ColtsFan on February 27, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Is this blog no longer being patrolled by the “your comment is being reviewed for moderation” police, or did this bit of vitriol (I give a rating of 8 on Kos-ter scale) just not contain any of the right key-words? And don’t start up with me–I’m Jewish and I don’t have dog in this fight. I just know offensive when I see it, and that was offensive.
smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 12:44 AM
The only moderation this crew needs is should we nuke them, invade them, or invade them and then nuke them.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:57 AM
smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 12:44 AM
There is nothing more offensive to me than people that willfully enter the public arena and call for a censor for offensive speech.
Yes, I agree, it’s offensive. Horribly offensive.
However, when you quote someone you should include their username so we know who owns it.
Then when I read another post by that username again, I can judge for myself how much credibility I want to give it.
No need to play God.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 12:57 AM
I am an American.
“Hope” your not offended.
Not.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:00 AM
Now that’s funny!
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:04 AM
I applaud Turkey for their guts,a la Denmark,
but we now know were the Jihadys super highway
will lead to, Turkey!
canopfor on February 27, 2008 at 1:12 AM
Nuke who? What are you talking about?
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Tzetzes on February 27, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Anyone who doesn’t understand the carrot.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:16 AM
There is hope yet, my friends, for Muslims.
amkun on February 27, 2008 at 1:19 AM
Actually, I think they outlawed them, but a new law allows head scarves. The universities are fighting the law and not letting students with head scarves enter. Interesting that this development comes on the heels of that.
Connie on February 27, 2008 at 1:20 AM
καταλαβαίνω καταλαβαίνω?
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:21 AM
διόρθωση. καταλαβαίνω καρότο?
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:23 AM
That’s pretty encouraging stuff coming out of Turkey. However, the changes Turkey’s government are trying to achieve are not going to come about without a lot of blood spilling. The Christian Reformation, I’m afraid, will likely provide a good template for how long and bloody Islam’s coming to terms with modernity will be. Perhaps a few hundred years from now, assuming no suicide nuking of the planet takes place between now and then, we’ll finally be able to live in peace with Islam.
BryanS on February 27, 2008 at 1:26 AM
It’s all Greek to me.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:26 AM
No need to translate Salty, your smart enough to know the difference between the carrot and the stick.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:30 AM
It was a great comeback.
(“Anyone who doesn’t understand the carrot”)
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:33 AM
This is all about cold hard cash. Turkey wants to be viewed as modern by the EU so they will be admitted. The strange thing is that the EU ought to be kissing their ass, because Turkey is the key to the mediterannean. Without them Europe, especially Eastern europe will be at the mercy of PUTIN AND THE RUSKIES.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:33 AM
The Jewish Bible does not say that God demands blood sacrifice. It simply notices that men seem insistent on it, and so gives a bunch of stringent requirements about how it should be done. In several places it says God does not want it. For example, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah%201:11&version=31, it comes right out and says “I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.”
Sinners burn in hell for their sins, not for failing to believe. As for whether an eternity in hell is just punishment, I will simply point out that we know from general relativity that what appears to take forever to one observer can be very fast to another. For example, objects falling into a black hole will appear to take an infinitie time to do that even though they are moving at nearly the speed of light towards a smallish object. The light is delayed as it leaves the vicinity of the black hole, and so it looks from far away like the object is moving very slowly.
pedestrian on February 27, 2008 at 1:34 AM
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:33 AM
Thanks, I’m pretty proud of that one, but hey, no credit for THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 12:57 AM? I don’t really feel that way, but I decided to speak up on behalf on the Hotair hardliners.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:35 AM
Some things never change.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:37 AM
smell the coffee-
Your 12:38 A.M. link -above- needs the extra comma that glommed on after the final “.html[,]” deleted when trying to click through to the AsiaTimes article on the “Koran controversy”.
You get an error message otherwise.
profitsbeard on February 27, 2008 at 1:39 AM
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Dude, after this new registration, my moderate ass is lookin like Falwell. There are some real, ummm, ummm, different opinions here now. How about me and you bury the hachet, regardless of how weak your positions are?
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:40 AM
More
Connie on February 27, 2008 at 1:41 AM
LOL
Kiss my ass.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:42 AM
Yeah, the KOS types have slithered in, huh?
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:42 AM
Goodnight Salty, what a great way to hit the hey. See you on the flip side. Out.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 27, 2008 at 1:44 AM
Easy Answer
Chakra Hammer on February 27, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Amen. Good night.
Saltysam on February 27, 2008 at 1:50 AM
Bl@kbird-
The Hadiths, of course, are the excusology for any cruelty or self-serving power grab that later Islamic leaders wanted to implement.
“But Mohammad said…” has probably killed more people than any other three words in history.
profitsbeard on February 27, 2008 at 1:51 AM
Everyone happy with their comments?
Everyone so clever with their wit?
No one remarks our current victories of battle that have not seen the light of day in Iraq, but it is OK to joke about the possible 4th or 5th World War in Kosovo, or does this history of this region baffle only the smartest of us?
I tell you what,….. Google “Start of the WW1″ or “What Started WW1″ and work your way up from there, and in the mean time have this running in the back ground.
Then go back to your school yard politics and “play” soldier and/or politician.
Please feel free to comment…… I feel “Pinky” is with me…
Seven Percent Solution on February 27, 2008 at 1:56 AM
Hey Turkey: uh, good luck with all that.
CP on February 27, 2008 at 9:55 AM
Interesting. My crude scatological comment is more offensive to you than the idea that someone could be doomed to an eternity in flames for lack of belief in someone else’s god?
Nice moral compass.
peski on February 27, 2008 at 10:56 AM
I’m not calling for a censor, Saltysam. There is, or used to be a moderator for this blog. Sorry to goof up on your citation protocol; I was assuming you’d read the thread. Here is the citation in case you really needed it.
Playing God? Good heavens. No need to get theological here Saltysam. Is the idea of a moderator that foreign to you? One of the reason why I
appreciate, have appreciated this blog, is that people exercise restraint, so it doesn’t look like one of those comment threads on youtube, where after the first three intelligible comments it degenerates into pointless name-calling. If this is the new standard of since the reopening of registration, I guess I’ll have to find somewhere else to go.Anyway, I thought that the comment that prompted Peski’s
intemperate response,
was meant to be ironic. In trying to imagine the “divine court” that would be judging liberal Turkish Muslim reformers, and American atheists together, I got a mental error message, so I assumed that highhopes was being a touch facetious. Call me naive.
smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 10:59 AM
I have to agree with the point that you seem to be making.
peski on February 27, 2008 at 11:13 AM
I cannot stress enough how hopeful this is. Please let this work. It could be just what is needed to pull the rug out from under the feet of Wahhabists and their ilk.
MadisonConservative on February 27, 2008 at 11:16 AM
Perhaps, and perhaps my response was “intemperate”, but the point is that religious hate speech against atheists is perfectly acceptable to most, but when the tables are turned the “offensive” and “moderator” bleating won’t be far behind.
peski on February 27, 2008 at 11:19 AM
I hope you’re right. It’s hard for me to picture a real change, but it is a bright spot in the clouds.
peski on February 27, 2008 at 11:21 AM
Posts made between 1:56 AM and 5:38 AM(mine) disappeared. Any explanation?
I’m reposting mine:
You have to remember that Turkey’s formal application to join the European Union—was made on 14 April, 1987. And since then it has been refused by the Europeans, not just for political reasons, but for the fact that Turkey is an Islamic nation. The Europeans are demanding reforms: political and … religious.
Also remember that the European idiots are suffering from their own afflicted wound by opening the door to Muslim invaders, so they do not want to add more to the pain.
You can see now why Turkey is trying to reinvent an Islam suitable for its political and economic ambitions, a more secular Islam, a “new Islam” more suitable for an Atheist Europe.
That should not be good news. It’s normal, regular, expected news for the keen observer.
In fact, Turkey’s reforms -either political or religious- which began in the early 20th century had no influence whatsoever on the Arab-Islamic World. And I don’t expect that this “new Islam” will change the minds of Al-Qaeda or Al Azhar’ scholars (the largest Islamic University in the World located in Cairo, Egypt). It never did and never will.
By the way, the Turks are not Arabs. It says it all.
Indy Conservative on February 27, 2008 at 12:08 PM
Wasn’t Islam always a social control mechanism? It was my understanding that Mohammed was pretty awful at getting people to follow him under religious pretenses, but once the pillaging began Islam was the new hotness. I’d say this is a nice attempt by Turkey to make Islam’s savagery relevant in the 21st century…or at all, but unfortunately it will have to do it over the ‘dead bodies’ of the millions that would still want to use Islam to suit their personal agendas. Since Mohammed’s personal agenda was the basis of Islam that would make Turkey guilty of rewriting the pretext of the religion. Balls. I hope they write in something about “the peacemakers” or they’re toast.
blankminde on February 27, 2008 at 4:49 PM
In the hate speech department I think atheists get off pretty easy in the grand scheme of things (in the Western world, that is). Anyway, was what highopes dished out [highhopes on February 26, 2008 at 11:37 PM--had to throw that in there for Saltysam] “hate speech,” that he deserved the response you gave? Personally I don’t really care whether or not people believe in God; I’m too busy worrying about where I’m holding. Anyway, I’m still not convinced that highopes wasn’t being ironic. Wouldn’t it be funny if you went off on someone because you missed the point of what they wrote? Save your venom for the ones who really hate us–and are ready to back it up with deeds.
smellthecoffee on February 27, 2008 at 4:59 PM