Pew poll: Americans playing musical chairs with religion
posted at 2:17 pm on February 25, 2008 by Allahpundit
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44% have switched affiliations? Good, er, lord. Catholics bleed the worst, with roughly 1 in 10 adults describing him- or herself as lapsed, but overall numbers are holding steady thanks in part to John McCain: Illegals, it seems, are doing the jobs American ex-Catholics won’t do.
Biggest gainers? Unaffiliated, although about half of that number is comprised of people who consider themselves religious but subscribe to no particular denomination. Atheists + agnostics + secular unaffiliated (people to whom religion doesn’t much matter) = 10.3%, good for third place behind Protestants and Catholics and larger than all other faith groups combined.
Be sure to scroll down to the end for factoids about religious communities. The data on those with the biggest families and the highest degree of education is interesting, if only because it’s so unsurprising.
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Fine. Just make sure Islam ain’t one of them!
infidelpride on February 25, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Well I think people want the faith without the doctrine of a church. Its a belief in God rather than a belief in a single religeon.
William Amos on February 25, 2008 at 2:24 PM
I wish everyone would get the story straight.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:25 PM
ruh-roh…this is going to be a long thread. Haven’t had a good “red meat” religion post in a while.
*grabs popcorn*
JetBoy on February 25, 2008 at 2:26 PM
I’m one of them, I guess. I went to an Anglican church and now after we moved we go to an evangelical megachurch. I don’t know whether I’m “affiliated” with either at this point, though.
see-dubya on February 25, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Congratulations,…eh. Nevermind.
amerpundit on February 25, 2008 at 2:27 PM
Mwahahaha.
Allahpundit on February 25, 2008 at 2:28 PM
No, the straight answer is more people leaving Catholicism, more people listing “agnostic/atheist/whathaveyou” that USA Today story is both anecdotal and wishful thinking. Sorry
ernesto on February 25, 2008 at 2:28 PM
SUCCUMB TO THE ATHEIST rEVOLution!
Allahpundit on February 25, 2008 at 2:28 PM
look people want to have choice in religeon as much as anything else. They will bounce from one to another till they find one they are comfortable with.
This has gone on for centuries but leave it to the MSM to think its something new.
William Amos on February 25, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I’m one, too. Religious for sure, but not interested in church politics and afraid of hissing whispers from one denomination about the other. I guess I’m just not ready to go gumballs out and start hanging out at church functions. For now I study and pray at home. And watch Joyce Meyer on tv (oh, snap! a woman preacher!)
NTWR on February 25, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Muslims are just 0.6%? There goes CAIR’s “there are 7.3 billion muslims in America” canard.
madne0 on February 25, 2008 at 2:30 PM
I and my family have been trending the opposite way. I converted to Christianity in a big southern Baptist church. Then moved into the reformed Baptist mold (recognizing the five solas of the reformation) and now we are placed firmly in the Presbyterian mold. My wife and I are young and are really drawn to the high Church heavy liturgy order of service. No acoustic guitars for me, if you please.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:31 PM
put me in the 10.3% – a believer, but unaffiliated – and not as a musical chair player: been this way all my life, 50…ish.
jimbo2008 on February 25, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Aha! Now that the Southern Baptist co-blogger is gone, Allahpundit shows his true colors!
Slublog on February 25, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Chalk up another unaffiliated evangelical here.
Bob's Kid on February 25, 2008 at 2:32 PM
umm…it isn’t a USA Today story.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:32 PM
Atheism FTW!!
muyoso on February 25, 2008 at 2:33 PM
THE AGE OF EVANGELICAL ATHEISM BEGINS TODAY. YOU ARE WITNESS.
Allahpundit on February 25, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Me too. Christian, but only go to church about once every 2 or 3 months.
Of course it may have to do with me being a northerner currently living in Alabama. Just a wee bit too much ‘Amen!’ and shouting for my taste.
BadgerHawk on February 25, 2008 at 2:33 PM
That’s just it with this study…note the “disclaimer” if you will…that, for example, the research puts one in the “Catholic” category, simply because one states they’re Catholic…but not if they are a practicing, church-going Catholic.
And there’s a big difference.
JetBoy on February 25, 2008 at 2:34 PM
My faith is only in God and Jesus Christ. My faith is not in any denomination.
Any decline in religion is directly attributable to 2 factors.
1. Socialism, inasmuch as the State is god.
2. The narcissism and hedonism that has existed in this country since the 60s.
Divorce, abortion, alcoholism and drug addiction, the destruction of the family, and the rejection of God and Jesus Christ – all result from EITHER of the aforementioned factors.
When you serve either the State, or yourself, all of the above will logically follow.
OhEssYouCowboys on February 25, 2008 at 2:34 PM
HA!
Good News…there is no God!
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:34 PM
A number of people are leaving organized religion and starting independent churches because they feel that organized churches have strayed from the New Testament church as it was established by the apostles. These churches use only the Bible as their authority and not a ruling body which often contains people who don’t even believe the Bible is true.
Rose on February 25, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Eh. I highly doubt Allah will get many converts to the “You must join us for a life of nihilism and despair, with no meaning to anything!!!” view of the world. :D
He might get some traction with the “a life of debauchery without guilt” strain of Atheism though.
Vanceone on February 25, 2008 at 2:35 PM
question before comment: how does this poll relate to the last census?
I’ll freely admit, that I left my church after my father’s death because of the way I was treated by them. My father wasn’t a particularily religious man, and left rather specific directions on what to do in the event of his passing. Yet I was pressured by the pastor of our church, and his lacky, to have some sort of rememberence service at the church, even though it went directly agaisnt my father’s express wishes.
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on February 25, 2008 at 2:35 PM
@ OhEssYouCowboys on February 25, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Yes, the ONLY reason people don’t accept God is because of socialism and narcissism. There are NO other reasons why someone might not accept the concept of God. /sarcasm
muyoso on February 25, 2008 at 2:36 PM
One of the churches near my house has a sign out front that reads:
Good news! Heaven is real!
Bad news. So is hell.
BadgerHawk on February 25, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Because of the US Catholic Church’s stance on illegal immigration, I have cut off all donations etc., but will continue to pratice my faith without the aid of a mass or church affiliation.
Pam on February 25, 2008 at 2:37 PM
No kidding. I’ve run the table just myself:
born Catholic
by the time I became an adult – Christian but not Catholic
Then agnostic
Then essentially atheist
Then “spiritual but not religious”
Then Christian again, or “non-practicing Catholic”
now back to practicing Catholic again.
I know a lot of other people who’ve taken the same, or a similar, journey. Like William says, it’s nothing new, no matter how the MSM tries to spin it.
crazy_legs on February 25, 2008 at 2:37 PM
My Catholic parents have 7 kids who grew up to be: 3 Catholics, 1 Jew, 1 Hindu, 1 Unitarian, 1 athiest.
One thing I have noticed is that people tend to fall away from religion in their 20s and then come back in their 30s and 40s. Maybe Allah can be saved yet!
Bad Penny on February 25, 2008 at 2:38 PM
@ crazy_legs on February 25, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Looks like you hit your intellectual peak about 4 steps ago, lol.
muyoso on February 25, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Heh! Looks like those crazy legs of yours have really kept you on the move.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:40 PM
I notice that Pastafarianism has been excluded, I will consider that to be evidence of it’s one-true-religioness. Man, talking about religion always makes me hungry.
Ars Moriendi on February 25, 2008 at 2:41 PM
Religionism is a disease, and Jesus is the cure.
saved on February 25, 2008 at 2:42 PM
play nice.
BadgerHawk on February 25, 2008 at 2:43 PM
I was a Christian missionary for more than a few years in various foreign countries, and I can tell you that there are a lot of non-denominational Christians around the world that believe the emphasis on Christianity should be one’s relationship with Christ, not one’s religious dogma.
USA Today can call Catholics “traditional” but if you really want to go back to the roots of traditional Christianity, Catholicism is almost antithetical to that.
apollyonbob on February 25, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Some seem to embody the name of this site. Relax, jax.
Never confuse polls with reality.
Doug on February 25, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Christians don’t need to feel guilty either. It’s a wasted emotion.
There’s nothing prohibiting me as a Christian from debauchery. I have the choice just as any other person has the choice. The only difference is that I and other Christians believe our lives are better when we refrain from those things.
And as a Christian, I’m perfectly fine with seeing a downfall in religion. Jesus wasn’t so big on religion either.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 2:47 PM
Look what has happened to “organized religion” in the last 40 years. Once upon a time, denominations like the Presbyterians and the Episcopalians stood for something. These days they’ll fall for anything. There was a time you could take anyone, point then into any church regardless of the denomination, and at least know they were going to get the Gospel. These days, you’d need a psychiatrist before you send anyone into any church. It is not that the churches have just fallen away from what they used to stand for, it’s like they have retreated from it at a mad dash. The few churches that are out there right now are holding on for dear life, while wacked out fringe churches like the Westboro Baptist Church aka the GOD HATES FAGS church have pretty much given the churches in general a bad name. What is more, giants of the faith like we used to have like Billy Graham and pretty much either too old to preach anymore or have long since passed on, while loonies like Pat Roberston get up on TV each week and spew nonsense to the masses.
Frankly, I think it is long since past the time for revival in the churches. Maybe what the churches need to do is return to their roots. Kind of like look at the faith of the Native American. Because to be honest, long before the missionaries came by and tried to “convert the heathens, faithwise, the Native Americans had it right.
pilamaye on February 25, 2008 at 2:47 PM
I’ll continue to fight the power.
I don’t know what’s so strange about that; I grew up in, and still attend, Baptist churches, and we’ve always done a communion service on the first Sunday of each month, so upping that to weekly doesn’t seem like that big a deal.
Frozen Tex on February 25, 2008 at 2:48 PM
And you wonder why people think atheists are narcissists.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 2:52 PM
Esthier:
I suppose it depends on which branch of Christianity: those who believe Christ’s sacrifice is a “do what you want, it won’t matter cuz Christ paid the bill completely” and those who believe that Christ requires us to do the best we can before He makes up the difference (you know, actually do the Sermon on the Mount).
Vanceone on February 25, 2008 at 2:53 PM
It’s not strange for those who are practicing Christians, but it would be considered as something strange for those who are on the outside looking in, who think that only Catholics have the Eucharist weekly. And in their defense, that is the typical pattern, though not a hard and fast rule as you point out. This was US News and World Report’s cover story in Dec. (or was it Jan?), and I found it very interesting.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 2:54 PM
@ Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 2:52 PM
It was a joke. Laugh a little will you?
muyoso on February 25, 2008 at 2:56 PM
I’m attending a Calvary Chapel these days. The large non-denomination denomination :-)
Several have already made the point. Jesus wasn’t so hot on religion. Believe in Him and that He died for your sins and was raised again, and then get into His inspired Word, the Holy Bible. Pretty simple really. I think it makes sense that people might be moving away from “church politics” and the like. Just remember that people are not a perfect representation of who God is. Only God (Jesus) is! If you find the perfect church, don’t go there. You’ll ruin it :-)
Absolutely!
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Yeah, I don’t get that either.
In fact, the church I grew up in (and visit when in town) now has month healing services. There’s currently a huge debate within Baptist churches on whether or not the gifts of the spirit no longer exist. The cessationists (those who believe the gifts no longer exist) look down on those healing services and that pastor the same way people look down on Truthers.
Religious politics are just another reason people leave church.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 2:57 PM
I was raised in the Methodist church. Lapsed during college and young adult life. Became born-again in my early 30s and found the Methodist church and Presbyterian church to not be focused on the Bible as much as I wanted. Also, there were groups in both denominations that were trying to push the social liberal agenda too hard (e.g. homosexuality isn’t a sin even though the Bible states that it is).
My wife and I now attend the Evangelical Covenant Church. They are an affiliated denomination. In fact the only protestant denomination founded in America. The Bible is their creed and they have a well-balanced emphasis on worship and praise, Bible study, fellowship, and missions.
Part of the migration of believers from mainstream denominations is that we are in a post-modern world and the traditional approaches to worship etc. don’t appeal to the new generation. The churches need to update without losing their foundation in the Word.
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 2:58 PM
What you will find is that conservative churches are growing and liberal churches are falling apart. Christian churches supporting abortion, homosexual marriage and transsexual/homosexual leadership are bleeding members. This is based on folks wishing to remain Christian and not just belonging to a social activist club trying to parallel post modern agendas.
Hening on February 25, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Since when did atheists become a “faith group?” Is there really faith involved in denying God’s existence? Sounds more like muddled thinking from a bunch of people destined to burn in Hell to me.
There really isn’t anything new here. My mainstream Protestant church is about to leave the denomination for a smaller affiliated denomination. The reason is primarily that the central church government got too much into the politics of secular humanism and away from faith-based worship of Christ. Put another way, ordaining homosexuals and boycotting Taco Bell are not activities associated with the worship and glorification of Christ’s message to the world.
highhopes on February 25, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Sure. I don’t use sarc tags, but I wasn’t being serious either. The timing was just good.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 2:59 PM
By the way, AP, is this just a bit of red-meat bait, placed on your little atheist hook, whereby you intend to identify the new cross-over Christian posters from Captain’s Quarters? Sneaky…very sneaky.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I really don’t care what others think, believe or practice, when it comes to religion. If it works for them and it does no harm to others, then have at it.
But when it comes to someone else trying to cram their beliefs down my throat, because they think they are right or just more righteous, then you’ve stepped over the line in my book.
Live and let live. It’s a simple yet effective doctrine.
fogw on February 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM
I guess I need to modify my procedure now. It used to be:
1) Check byline of a religion thread.
2) If “Bryan Preston,” continue
3) Else end.
Now I’m stuck in an atheist red-meat undefined state.
Hey Captain, please post a religion article pronto so I can bet back to equilibrium.
Anton on February 25, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Haha. I was listening to a podcast yesterday (reclaimingthemind.org) about what makes a “true church,” and they used that line when talking about how all churches are imperfect because we are imperfect. First time I heard that line was yesterday. Now two days in a row!
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Somebody comes up to Huckabee and says I got good news and bad news.
Huckabee says: Give me the good news.
Dude says: Jesus has returned!!!
Huckabee says: THAT IS GREAT!!! Uh, whats the bad news.
Dude says: He is on the phone, he wants to talk to you…and he is calling from Salt Lake City.
Roger Waters on February 25, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Yo, PollyFlob: I’m sure you’re afraid of the truth, but what do you think Christ was saying in Matthew 16:18?
corona on February 25, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Not to worry. Sooner or later, one of us will get our grubby little hands on a photo of AP. Rest asssured we will post it on our web-sites for all to see. The caption will read.
“SEE! This is what YOU will turn into if you succumb to the atheist rEVOLution.” Sort of like the old TV ads saying “This is your brain on drugs. Any questions?”
My collie says:
CyberCipher on February 25, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Of course. The Bible says that creation testifies to who He is. To look at the awesome design of the Universe around us and deny that there is a designer takes more faith then believing there is a designer IMHO.
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 3:04 PM
I was raised Catholic, and I tell ya, the Catholic church does a great job of creating atheists. After all, the God of Catholicism gets hung up on whether or not you eat meat on Fridays during Lent. There’s simply no way that any God worth worshipping would be such a petty micromanager on one hand, while on the other hand completely ignore the culture of child-rape that the Catholic church has fostered.
Since that Pew poll seems to indicate that there are a lot of new “unaffiliateds,” I’m starting a support group for new atheists/agnostics who also happen to be attractive single women. We meet at the bar.
No need to thank me, I’m here to help.
Enrique on February 25, 2008 at 3:04 PM
Sure. Die and be dead. If it works for you, go for it.
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 3:04 PM
We Oregonians need to stick together (even though I’m in Arizona these days)
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 3:06 PM
Weekly observance of the scrament of communion and saying the Nicene creed is hardly “downright Roman Catholic.” If anything it is a return to the basics of faith. Observing the Westminster Confession of Faith instead of long rambling documents that amount to nothing more than social activism in the name of religion. It is the next logical step in the growing evangelical movement that is replacing the moribund mainstream denominations.
highhopes on February 25, 2008 at 3:07 PM
How about those who believe in the book of Romans?
You’ve completely missed my point.
The Bible teaches (even the Sermon on the Mount agrees) that humans can be saved only through grace, which means it has nothing to do with us. I can’t do anything to deserve it, and neither can you.
This also means that neither of us can do anything that will prevent us from receiving it aside from absolutely rejecting it.
However, to quote Paul, “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?” (Romans 6:15) I’ll not insult your intelligence by quoting the conclusion, but hopefully now you understand where I’m coming from even if you still believe that Christians must never sin in order to be Christians.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Once again, the blithe bigotry of the practicing Christian is laid bare.
Love thy neighbor. Unless thy neighbor’s gay.
Enrique on February 25, 2008 at 3:10 PM
The Church of Christ observes communion every Sunday.
Not to be confused with the United Church of Christ which is a relatively new denomination that Obama’s church is part of.
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Because of the US Catholic Church’s stance on illegal immigration, I have cut off all donations etc., but will continue to pratice my faith without the aid of a mass or church affiliation.
Pam on February 25, 2008 at 2:37 PM
I usually avoid posting during the work day and I always avoid the religion threads because, well, for the same reason I don’t do my own dental work.
Pam, I agree with you. The Church’s stand on immigration is very discouraging so I understand your reaction and respect your decision.
However to say that you will continue to practice your faith “without the aid of a Mass or Church..” confuses me. Are you saying you have officiall left the Catholic church or are you saying you will continue to be Catholic, but just not go to Mass? I am assuming the former. Obviously one cannot be practice “Catholicism” without the Mass and sacrements.
Dirthead on February 25, 2008 at 3:11 PM
Yes. The point of the article is not that everyone is becoming Roman Catholic, but that the traditional forms of service are being utilized in many denominations.
Weight of Glory on February 25, 2008 at 3:12 PM
Sometimes you love someone by telling them that their chosen behavior is harmful. You don’t have to accept homosexuals as leaders of your church to love them. I think Jesus would say, I love the sinner, but go and sin no more lest something worse happen to you.
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Lunch break is over. Back to work.
Thanx for the red meat for lunch AP! I enjoy defending faith in God through His Son Jesus! When all this is done and gone, that’s what will be left. That’s a message worth proclaiming! God Loves All Y’all :-)
Ordinary1 on February 25, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Not ordaining homosexuals is to hating homosexuals as not letting men work as waiters at Hooters is to hating men.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 3:18 PM
Good News! The Easter Bunny is real.
Bad News! http://hotair.com/archives/2008/02/25/video-jew-hating-rabbit-threatens-danish-cartoonist/
Wah. wah.
ronsfi on February 25, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Ah, there it is, the Christian Payoff, it’s not just that you are in heaven, the extra satisfaction of knowing that those that don’t worship your Sky-God are “burning in hell”.
Got to love that Christian ‘tude.
JayHaw Phrenzie on February 25, 2008 at 3:21 PM
It’s as much a part of the “Christian tude” as it is a part of the “atheist tude” to be arrogantly smug about the belief that God does not exist, treating those who believe as though they are children who haven’t learned that Kris Kringle died a very long time ago.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 3:24 PM
I converted to Judaism in my 30’s….I’m in it for the education and money. /sarc
ihasurnominashun on February 25, 2008 at 3:26 PM
Born Catholic; during rebellious teen years in the 1970’s – instead of sex, drugs, rock and roll – went the Osmond family path for a couple of years searching for utopia; when I saw Pope John Paul II in US in 1979 I realized there’s no place like home and I haven’t looked elsewhere ever since.
deedledee on February 25, 2008 at 3:27 PM
I forget where this quote originated, but I heard it in a Hitch lecture once and it is quite on the mark re: god.
JayHaw Phrenzie on February 25, 2008 at 3:28 PM
The Kris Kringle mythology is a good comparison. There are many similarities between the Santa and Jesus mythologies.
1) Same Birthday
2) Reward you if good
3) Punish you if bad
4) Omniscient regarding Children
And of course,
5) Both are fictional characters used to influence human behaviour.
JayHaw Phrenzie on February 25, 2008 at 3:32 PM
How do you come up with that crap?
You have no idea what my personal beliefs are? Based on what I said you only know I am accepting of all beliefs as long as people behave themselves and do no harm to others.
I take it by your comments, you are not as tolerant. But I am curious to know what religion teaches it’s followers to tell people they disagree with to “Die and be dead”.
The way you express yourself is exactly what disgusts me about others cramming their beliefs down someones throat. You’ve done it to me, yet you no nothing, nada, zip, about my personal religious beliefs.
Thanks for making my point.
fogw on February 25, 2008 at 3:34 PM
1) Surely you know this, but Jesus was not born on December 25th, and neither was Mr. Kringle. People celebrate the birth of Jesus on the 25th of December, but no one is celebrating Kris’s birthday that day.
2) Jesus does not offer a reward for those who are good. The “reward” is for those who choose to accept it. That’s why when Jesus was here, tax collectors and prostitutes were apart of His crowd.
3) The negative consequence for reject God is merely that you get exactly what you want, the absence of God in your life. Call it punishment if you like, but it would be self-imposed punishment.
4) I don’t know if Santa is exactly omniscient. He “sees you when you’re sleeping and knows when you’re awake” and “knows when you’ve been bad or good,” but does he know when you’re doing something that’s neither bad nor good? And maybe he knows when you’re awake, but does he see you then? There are some holes in that theory.
5) Actually, both were historically real people, and considering the Bible teaches that it’s impossible to be Good (as in absolutely Good) without Christ, it would be stupid of someone to change his/her behavior due to a belief that Christ exists. The fake religious people are the only people Jesus actually despised.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 3:47 PM
What the article misses is that while many Catholics lapse, only a small minority of them convert. And there is a huge difference between the two (the word for the day is “apostasy.”) But even when I was a kid in the duck-and-cover era, I (as a Catholic) was stricken by how frequently protestants switched churches, often because they didn’t like something the pastor had said or done.
rightwingprof on February 25, 2008 at 3:49 PM
That’s your anti-Christian bias showing pal.
In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (TNIV), Paul says:
“ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
NOT ORDAINING homosexuals to leadership positions in the church isn’t the same thing as hating gays. The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin. Christians don’t hate sinners but they don’t condone the sin either. You simply can’t be an active homosexual and have a right relationship with God.
highhopes on February 25, 2008 at 3:50 PM
friends, it doesn’t matter what your opinions are or how sincere you are, what matters is:
Is. It. True.
I don’t care how strongly you believe it or how good you are.
Is it TRUE?
All of us assumes something is true based on what you have been taught or what you have discovered to be true, it is all FAITH.
Do you know for sure that there is no God?
For me, it takes more faith, more disregard for the truth, more disregard for intelligence, more disrespect of human reasoning to become an atheist. You can believe all you want that there is no God, we are still friends. But do not think there is no diety because you KNOW it to be TRUE.
In which case you have to KNOW ALL knowledge to be certain there is no God – which is simply UNTRUE.
maynila on February 25, 2008 at 3:54 PM
From a different perspective. I’m glad you “found your home” but here in very Catholic New Orleans, there is more than a little intolerance of Protestants. Catholic churches refuse to participate in organizations like Habitat for Humanity because they aren’t Catholic. Kids’ sporting events are scheduled for Sunday mornings under the premise that the kids can go to Saturday night mass instead (ignoring the fact that non-Catholic families have to make a choice that Catholic families do not). I am constantly getting mailings telling me to come back to the Catholic church in terms that demean Protestant denominations.
highhopes on February 25, 2008 at 3:56 PM
Interesting poll…. but I think some of you are missing some of what this poll is saying…
Folks like me are TIRED of being categorized into convenient labels and treated according to group identity.
Do I think theres a God? Yep…
Do I think any person here on earth is smart enough to tell me what God wants? uh… no…
Do I think theres a Plan?… yep…
Do I think any of the religions have it right??…. uh, no..
But then, I’m an independent cuss… I don’t think the Rep or Dem parties have it right either….
Actualy it would be interesting to check this trend line against the trend of independent VOTERS out there….
Romeo13 on February 25, 2008 at 3:57 PM
Esthier, I think we are once again running into the whole “grace versus works” thing. I know Protestants seem to view it as settled that the only way you can be a Christian is if you totally swear off good works, but lots of Christians believe works are necessary too (including Christ, I might add).
I agree that there is grace (as in, none of us can save ourselves–that is a gift from Christ) but it seems to be rather stupid to say that since we can’t save ourselves, we need to do nothing at all.
And I never said I believe Christians are not Christians until they have overcome sin completely. Salvation is a process, not an event.
In fact, I view salvation as two parts: one is, indeed, unconditional on our part and we do nothing at all. That’s being resurrected. That’s a free gift of Christ, our unearned grace as it were. Nothing we can do will either qualify or prevent us from receiving that gift.
Salvation from sin IS up to us–or at least our accepting Christ’s conditions for that gift. Is a gift of a trillion dollars less of a gift because the person giving it says you have to fly to New York wearing a blue suit and orange socks to pick it up?
So that’s my view on salvation: just because we don’t merit grace nor can we earn it doesn’t mean there are no conditions attached to salvation from sin (as, indeed, you “grace only” Christians also believe–you view someone has to accept Christ to be saved: an act on the part of the person).
Vanceone on February 25, 2008 at 3:58 PM
The issue that I find most important is why do people who leave religion come to believe in moralities as childish as those they left. The Bishop of Canterbury’s recent support of some degree of Sharia in the UK is no more insightful into the human condition than a fundamentalist Christian denouncing homosexuals. Yet most atheists end falling in line behind liberal Christian moral leaders like the Bishop of Canterbury! Indeed, they may inspire even inspire some of the silly liberal Christian moral beliefs. Nietzsche documented this phenomenon in the 19th Century and it has sadly gone unaddressed in 20th and 21st Centuries.
I suspect that part of the problem is that most people refuse to think seriously about morality. Even people who talk about morality spew thoughtless nonsense. For instance, to give the most common example we see on Hotair, there are those people who rant on about “objective morality” and make some claim that the left rejects objective morality. But, of course, objective morality means using a small number of rules to determine morally acceptable behavior. Unless the moral subtlety of the left has eluded me, the left makes moral judgments on a small set of rules which they naively take for granted. (For the record, we should attack the morals of the left by hammering away at the evil ideology of pacifism.)
thuja on February 25, 2008 at 3:59 PM
Isaiah 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. …
2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, … [4] … lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
OhEssYouCowboys on February 25, 2008 at 4:03 PM
Amen!
I was living the sinful, narsisistic lifestyle of a homosexual until a I was saved by Jesus and the wonderful people at Ex Gay Ministry.
calicon on February 25, 2008 at 4:05 PM
One of the reasons for so many unaffiliateds is
that societal pressure to conform by belonging to/go to
a church has definitely decreased, so people are free
to not go to church, and yet not be ostracized.
Anyone who has belonged to an evangelical protestant church knows what I mean by “social pressure to conform”, in attendance, style of worship, etc.
mitchmcc on February 25, 2008 at 4:05 PM
I know of no Protestants who say that. I’m not saying it now either.
I’m not saying this either. I hoped the Paul reference would help explain my position, but I think you took too much from what I wrote earlier.
I’m partially arguing this point.
Christ’s conditions are merely that we refrain from sinning. Refraining from sinning is the key to being free from sin, so it’s not exactly that you have to accept Christ’s conditions. It’s more that Christ’s conditions are the solution.
What I’m saying, as plan as I can put it, is this:
Becoming a Christian is a gift that cannot be earned. Once we become a Christian we are freed from the laws of sin and death (paraphrased scripture). However, once we are freed we still have the choice to make ourselves slaves again, meaning that despite the fact that Jesus has let us out of jail, as free people, we can choose to walk back in.
Christians can sin if they choose. Most just understand that they don’t want to sin.
Esthier on February 25, 2008 at 4:08 PM
calicon, you just made my day. Seriously. Thank you for your testimony, and God bless you.
OhEssYouCowboys on February 25, 2008 at 4:09 PM
I grew up in a somewhat mixed household — when my parents got married, they were both Catholic. When I was about 3 years old, my dad became Born Again, while my mother went in the opposite direction (I would consider her a lapsed Catholic with atheistic overtones). I think because of that and the lack of faith in televangelists that we would watch when we couldn’t make it to church (I remember watching PTL a lot as a kid) I never really subscribed to any particular faith. I consider myself a follower of the Christian faith, but I’m not of any particular denomination.
With that being said — this does not surprise me that many would consider themselves unaffiliated. After the numerous scandals in the different churches over the years, I wouldn’t affiliate myself with any particular church, either.
ScoopPC11 on February 25, 2008 at 4:09 PM
Dude. You said your belief or philosophy is “live and let live.” Fine. I think that is a dead end, literally, and we need to go a little further than “que sera, sera.” Am I not allowed to comment on a comment? I disagree with you. Big time. Is my disagreement automatically ‘cramming my belief down your throat’? Please.
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 4:10 PM
I don’t understand this.
The atheist says, “I can’t see any evidence to support the notion of God, and many of the claims about him are contradictory. Furthermore, the arguments for his existence appear to apply equally well to Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, Unicorns, and other things that we all agree don’t exist.”
The believer says, “That’s because you don’t have the magical gift of faith; because you don’t have the ability to reject facts, evidence, and rationality and just believe. Too bad you’re gonna burn in Hell while I enjoy the spectacle from my ring side seat in Heaven.
And you find atheists smug and arrogant?
student on February 25, 2008 at 4:16 PM
You’re kidding, right?
JetBoy on February 25, 2008 at 4:16 PM
The libs never read the story about the stoning of the adultress to the end. The crowd brought the woman to Jesus with the intent of stoning her for her sin. Jesus said that whoever is without sin, cast the first stone. Eventually the crowd dropped their stones and dispersed. This is where the libs stop reading. Jesus then told the woman that she was forgiven and to GO AND SIN NO MORE. Jesus didn’t okay what she did nor give her the ‘wink and nod.’ He acknowledged that she had sinned and urged her to change her ways to be in tune with the way of the Lord.
Jesus loves us all. But that love doesn’t mean that he will overlook our sins e.g. the deviant sexual lifestyle is really okay.
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Um, yeah.
Mallard T. Drake on February 25, 2008 at 4:19 PM
Ah, way, way to long since we’ve had a religion thread.
Let the good times roll!
SouthernDem on February 25, 2008 at 4:25 PM
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