Are You Ready For That “Virtual Fence”?
posted at 12:27 pm on February 23, 2008 by see-dubya
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They seem to have worked some of the software kinks out of Boeing’s “virtual” border fence and Michael Chertoff says it’s ready to install, and may be online this summer. Here’s a sneak preview of our new secure homeland:
Chertoff said the virtual fence already is working.
On Feb. 13, an officer in a Tucson command center — 70 miles from the border — noticed a group of about 100 people gathered at the border. The officer notified agents on the ground and in the air. Border Patrol caught 38 of the 100 people who tried to cross illegally, and the others went back into Mexico, said a Homeland Security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he isn’t authorized to speak publicly.
Good thing they decided to go back. But what if they hadn’t? And while the Border Patrol swarmed on these 100 people, how many other groups took advantage of their distraction to run across elsewhere?
I’m not opposed to this virtual fence technology; in fact it makes a lot of sense–but in the same way an alarm system for your house is a good supplement to strong locks and stout doors. It backs up the first (physical) line of defense and identifies breaches. But on its own, an alarm system or a virtual fence–no matter how sophisticated–doesn’t make me feel much safer. I think it was Ace of Spades who noted that the fence they built around the White House itself is very much the real kind, and that security cameras alone aren’t sufficient to guarantee the President’s security. Even though they’re deemed so for ours.
Now, this 38% arrest rate is (I would think) an improvement over current border patrol capabilities. But what happens when the smugglers and migrants figure out how to evade the towers? As I wrote in my initial look at this technology last June, it seems like a guy in a ghillie suit with a .270 could easily blind our “unblinking eye” any time he wanted to.
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Or how long before some hacker starts marketing the fence-blinder box.
Limerick on February 23, 2008 at 12:31 PM
Well, I think your underestimating the effect this would have. With 38% of the Mexicans getting caught, isn’t that going to persuade their family members and friends not to try and meet the same fate? I’m not a desperate Mexican, so I can’t really answer that question.
The lure of illegally crossing the border now is that it’s so damn easy, and barely anyone gets caught doing it. If this virtual fence catches a whole lot more than we have been, then I think that would send shivers down the spines of other Mexicans contemplating the same thing.
Think of it as a burglar prowling for a house to break into, sees the alarm sticker and says, ah, to hell with that, and moves on.
Seixon on February 23, 2008 at 12:33 PM
I’m still skeptical about these virtual, or actual, fences…simply because of the numerous tunnels they’ve found, and continue to find, at the Mexican border. It’s just too easy to go under this thing…
JetBoy on February 23, 2008 at 12:34 PM
Seixon–I think that analogy breaks down because the burglar is deterred by the alarm and thinks “I’ll go break into a house that’s a softer target”. But we’re the only house on this blog. Well, Canada.
JetBoy–Yeah, they’ll dig tunnels, and we’ll develop seismographic detectors or begin interviewing arrestees and figuring out where they bring them through. They’ll also start putting them in shipping containers (they did this with illegal immigrants in England) or ship them around through Canada. But those are costly. And if we can raise the costs of smuggling in immigrants, it takes out some of the incentive for the smugglers to do this.
see-dubya on February 23, 2008 at 12:41 PM
So a group of 100 people got noticed by this thing? So it does what one guy with cheap binoculars can do from a lawn chair on top of a single wide? And the result if a 38% arrest rate? So give the guy with the binos on top of the single wide a M1903 .30-06 Springfield Bolt Action Rifle with iron sights, and you’ve got the exact same thing as the “virtual fence.” Or just let the Minutemen do what they’re volunteering to do anyway.
My tax dollars are well and wisely spent. Then again, my tax dollars pay my paycheck, so I can’t complain too much.
Spc Steve on February 23, 2008 at 12:48 PM
The lure of illegally crossing the border now is that it’s so damn easy, and barely anyone gets caught doing it. If this virtual fence catches a whole lot more than we have been, then I think that would send shivers down the spines of other Mexicans contemplating the same thing.
Think of it as a burglar prowling for a house to break into, sees the alarm sticker and says, ah, to hell with that, and moves on.
Seixon on February 23, 2008 at 12:33 PM
So damn easy? I thought Illegal Aliens were dying in the desert, being killed by coyotes, and getting shot by Border Patrol Agents. You need to get your story straight! The burglar thing is a joke….right?
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 12:51 PM
I trust Boeing with my life everyday (hence the 737 on my name) and that of my wife, but as mentioned above, this vitual fence oughta be *in addition to* the REAL fence. If BOEING builds it, it’ll work, but build a real wall behind it (which they are, from what I’ve read elsewhere).
Tony737 on February 23, 2008 at 12:52 PM
I always thought those cute little alarm signs posted on front lawns only encouraged thieves – they could learn what makes them trip and how to disarm them. You’re really paying to post an open invitation.
Better a fierce dog and/or a couple of firearms.
Mommynator on February 23, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Hey Juan “Z-Visa” McCain, “build me my goddam fence and deport the Illegal Aliens that are here”! Call it a banana if you want to!!!!
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Seixon’s right, this is all about the economics of breaking in, which really comes down to risk vs. reward ratios, or the built in “price” of crossing the border. If that price is high enough, it will not only discourage those who travel back and forth across the border illegally from doing so, but it will also reduce the incentive for future potential illegal immigrants to do so. It’s exactly the same argument that the “attrition by enforcement” advocates (who will probably be unhappy about this method) use. The question is whether the 38% chance of getting caught is a high enough “price” to change behavior. I think it is, but I guess we shall see.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 12:57 PM
see-dubya,
I think you were a bit too hard on the virtual fence idea in the main posting, though you gave it a little more credit in the comments. America has very long borders. Practicality, cost and environmental litigation prevent physical barriers along a lot of it. Adding virtual fence is a lot better than the status quo, which is effectively nothing in a lot of places.
Faster please!
cool breeze on February 23, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Absolutely ridiculous solution, in fact nothing more than a money wasting farce. The pro-amnesty, anti-American crowd points to this joke and claims to hear the voice of the people and is taking action…isshh! Hi tech crap, what’s wrong with the tried and true 50 yard wide cleared kill zone with 2 or 3 10 ft. constantina/razor wire top fences, you could even run a continuity circuit (i.e. railroads) for all the techies.
dmann on February 23, 2008 at 1:00 PM
You can fund this fence with my “Virtual Taxes”
multiuseless on February 23, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Finally. America’s using its collective head. Thank god the folks in Washington decided against the next Great Wall of China or 38th Parallel. Even I could have pole vaulted or dug around those rediculous ideas. For once I’m glad the politicians in Washington didn’t listen to the folks. Now, let’s take care of that tamper proof identification, get a guest worker program established, and throw employers who break the law behind bars.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 23, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Sorry to disappoint you, but your not living near the border apparently means you really don’t understand these people very well. They mass and swarm with no concern for how many of their numbers get caught because of the certain knowledge of what the consequences for getting caught are.
The consequences are a couple of free meals and a ticket back to Mexico. If you think they care even in the slightest about being told that they can never return legally to the United States you are sadly mistaken.
The only thing they care about is the money. In Mexico, they are damned lucky to earn $2.00 a day, $12.00 a week if they work six days a week. Here in the US they make more than double in one day, what they can earn all month back in Mexico.
Think about that for a little while, they can earn more in two weeks here than they can in an entire year in Mexico. No, sorry until you start to understand what is motivating these people you cannot even begin to grasp the risks they are willing to take or the lengths they will go to. No virtual fence is going to stop or even slow them down, they will simply learn to Zerg Rush the virtual fence.
So they get caught, processed through the American legal system stuck in the system for maybe a couple weeks to a month, and then sent back to Mexico, its nothing more than a minor inconvenience. The potential reward on the other hand is the possibility of earning more in a few short years than their entire extended family can make in several generations.
Let me put this in terms perhaps easier for an American or European to understand. Let’s say you have a nice job and make $50.000 a years. You earn roughly $200.00 a day, thats $25.00 an hour. Now imagine that you could earn $2500.00 an hour just by illegally crossing the border, and the worst thing likely to happen to you is you get caught and sent back to your country of origin.
doriangrey on February 23, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Using your examples, that works out to a “minor convenience” of about $2,000 to $10,000.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:07 PM
minor inconvenience, that is.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:08 PM
cool breeze on February 23, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Your argument is based on the current sad reality we face. The environmental considerations for this necessity are very much like those shackling our ability achieve greater energy independence. Decisions made regarding border,energy and national security must reflect the will of the vast majority of citizens and not the shrill voice of special interest groups!
dmann on February 23, 2008 at 1:09 PM
doriangrey on February 23, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Your dossier writing is way too long. Shorten it up dude.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 23, 2008 at 1:10 PM
Each line of defense needs to be complete from east to west. If installation of the virtual fence (including seismic sensors for tunnel attempts) precedes the installation of the concrete fence, and both extend across the entire border, fine. The augmentation of forces manning our Border Patrol is another obvious necessity, the third line of defense.
Beyond utilizing our Border Patrol, Sheriffs and our National Guard empowered for their prime purpose, a deputized citizen force is the next alternative.
Not everyone has family or church to remain occupied when they retire. It’s time for developers to creatively meet our needs outside of the box. If organized retirement communities posted facilities along the border providing our working senior citizens low income housing room and board and social interaction as a deputized work force manning the virtual eyes via duplicate computer stations and look-out towers, such a room and board program for the elderly work force could provide additional eyes as well as “meaning” to those senior citizens who feel the desire to participate and enjoy some sense of social relevance in their elder years. Living inside of urban America is not every senior citizen’s desire, though life deposited them there. Some folks want to return to the open air enjoyed during youth. If I were a commercial developer, I’d look into buying border property in relative proximity beyond major cities, San Diego, Yuma, Tucson, El Paso, Brownsville. Build hostels outside of town where major medical support is readily available for the elderly from the cities and areas extending to the border.
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:15 PM
I’m ready for some more La Gran Marcha’s.
Of course the open borders gang doesn’t want to shake things up right before an election.
Maybe now would be a good time to introduce some really stiff enforcement bills in the house.
Making illegal residence a felony would be a great start.
Speakup on February 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Actually attrition by enforcement would work well with a virtual fence. We already have a well tested national employment verification program; it’s just not mandatory. The “take away the jobs” strategy seems to be proving effective in the localities that are trying it.
Also, 38% got caught and the rest went back into Mexico = 0% were successful. A bad day in the desert for the illegals, if you ask me.
You are right that it is all aboout raising the price.
cool breeze on February 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Dorian’s posts are top notch. I don’t agree with him on everything, but he often sheds light on a point or will cause me to recalibrate my position. I page-down past a lot of posts but regularly stop to read his.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Work camps for the elderly? Awesome!
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:20 PM
I second that motion.
McCain can be absent for that senate vote.
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:21 PM
What’s wrong with it, among other things, is that it’s a fantasy that’s mildly diverting to immigration hawks and virtually no one else. You might as well recommend fleets of B-52s dropping napalm and neutron bombs, which would also solve the immediate problem, but meet with some amount of opposition, I suspect.
CK MacLeod on February 23, 2008 at 1:22 PM
You must be a member of the treason lobby. Physical barriers don’t work, that’s why you have a lock on your front door. I am so glad to read that you support our electeds not listening to the citizenry. There is a word for that: tyranny.
There is already a guest worker program in place, Einstein. It’s called the H2-A and H2-B visa.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:22 PM
A solution to the aging boomer population–a win-win. ;-)
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Want to stop the flood of illegal aliens? Invade and give the country back to its citizens. The power structure there is similiar to ours during the guilded age when the likes of Carnegie, Rockfeller, Vanderbilt, and Morgan controlled ninety percent of the world’s wealth. Thank god for Teddy Roosevelt, a republican.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 23, 2008 at 1:25 PM
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:15 PM
That has Monty Python skit written all over it ;-)
dmann on February 23, 2008 at 1:26 PM
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:22 PM
again. How do you beat a billion dollar fence? With a twelve dollar shovel and a thirty dollar ladder. Work smarter, not harder people.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 23, 2008 at 1:27 PM
Geezers with Alzheimer’s manning machine gun towers!
That’ll deter you!
cool breeze on February 23, 2008 at 1:27 PM
‘Can’t build an actual fence’ is claptrap. Why? Because the ’survey’ takes 5 years? Because of the ‘labor’. I’ll volunteer. Donate say two weeks of my back. I’ll even bring a pickup of cinderblocks.
Across the street the neighbor just had 200′ of 12 foot fence put in by a crew of four. Time to build. One day.
200′/3000 miles/200 ‘crews’ you could have that fence in 396 days.
Now granted, the neighbor’s fence isn’t going to keep out illegal immigrants, but you get the idea.
If 9000 men, in 52BC, could build 35 miles of 20 foot fence, and 70 miles of 12 foot deep trench, in 20 days, then how is it that Catapiller and the U.S. Army Corps of engineers can’t build a damn fence that fast? Not because they can’t, because they don’t want to.
Limerick on February 23, 2008 at 1:28 PM
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Careful with immediate sarcasm. Have you visited retirement settings for our less priviledged citizens?
For the past many decades, I have visited retirement communities regularly to donate services. I see how people without alzheimers waste away with nothing much to do but gather to look out the entry window.
It’s easy enough to project what alternatives you’d like to have available should the time and need come. There are many senior citizens today who still work minimum wage to stay afloat. Maybe you haven’t visited WalMart, either.
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Smarter? You do have a lock on your front door, don’t you?
Isn’t your position nothing more than malodorous hypocrisy?
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Chew got et mann…..
dmann on February 23, 2008 at 1:31 PM
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Yes. Don’t use it.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 23, 2008 at 1:33 PM
They’ll need to expand those and also increase green cards in order to keep pace with the decreasing size of the workforce over the next 20 years. With fewer workers supporting more retirees, it would be possible to have negative GDP for a decade or more.
Decreasing the illegal entry across the Southern border is a positive, but without matching that reduction with an increase in legal immigration the economy could shrink.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 1:33 PM
The real solutiuon to the economic problem in Mexico (which is at the root of the immigration problem) is internal reform there. Property rights are a good place to start. The state of private property law and regulation in many Latin American countries (including Mexico) effectively makes their citizens “illegal” in their own countries, at least economically speaking. Read de Soto if you’re interested in this angle.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:35 PM
Decreased workforce means higher wages. That’s basic supply and demand economics, which is apparently something you know nothing about. Real wages for the American worker have remained relatively stagnant for 30 years. You obviously want to destroy what middle class is left.
There are no limits on the H2-B visa. Employers just don’t want to comply with the law. It’s interesting to watch commenters on here supporting criminal employers who don’t want to abide by the laws.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:40 PM
Also, you should probably be a bit more informed before you intentionally mislead people.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:41 PM
Emphasis on “basic.” That kind of analysis ignores the fact that there are many sectors to an advanced economy like ours, and that they are imperfectly coupled. You can’t just generalize “workforce” anymore.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 1:43 PM
cool breeze on February 23, 2008 at 1:27 PM
manning the virtual eyes via duplicate computer stations –
Utilize seniors’ abilities and allow them interaction and sense of purpose. Whatever they see gets reported by proper channel of communication to the acting authorities.
Traditionally, the elders of the community had the time and interest in watching over the community. Until hoodlum violence over-ran our cities, and before American culture tossed anyone over 30 away, the elderly were looking out and witnessing from their front porch, and the adults all gathered around in the evening to socialize and BE a community.
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Uh-huh, and your semantic word game shines light on your contempt for the American worker. The manufacturing sector is hollowed out, so enjoy your chinese products.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 1:48 PM
It’s all about not respecting current employment laws. Our politicians, on both sides, are derelict in their duties and intentionally don’t respect our laws. It’s the wasps being attracted to the steak. No fence, of any kind, can prevent that drive, so long as the attraction is there.
In addition, our government in its latest action…
Also, the highest percentage of illegals who stay here…educated folks from India. Yes, not Latinos…the higher paid, but much lesser paid than educated Americans would demand, and technology-related jobs get filled by people who come here legally, from India primarily, then lose the jobs, which makes them instantly illegal. They don’t go back because they are mostly young/single, and love it here. Yes, most bring their families, eventually, though all kinds of means, including arranged marriages. This is not discussed much in the media but cuts deeply into legal/educated Americans’ opportunities and earning power.
Entelechy on February 23, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Hundreds of millions of dollars for a fake fence. (covers eyes, runs away sobbing)
OK, female moment over. How much does tall chain-link with concertina wire fence cost again?
Fine, use the “virtual” fence in those places where geography or water rights make it impossible to build a real fence. But put real fence where it can physically be installed.
It appears they are using the multi-million dollar stuff on places where cheapo regular fence would be more effective. Of course it is a government project, so I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Dorian’s rep on this site outshines yours by miles, both in quality of posts and longevity as a poster. You seem to think enough of your opinion to crap all over threads like a flock of geese with dyspepsia, and cap it off with condescention to dorian’s one, thoughtful post? Cool.
TexasDan on February 23, 2008 at 1:52 PM
LOL…..I agree. It is like hiring a contractor to figure out just where, exactly. to put that nail in the wall for hanging Mom’s photo up.
Limerick on February 23, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Funny that you jump to conclusions about someone’s views based on a few sentences.
I thought the quota for H2-B visas was 66,000. I’m more familiar with H1-B visas and have had to deal with the yearly quota being reached within the first month of the year.
A decreased workforce wouldn’t ensure higher wages. The wages are also a function of wealth and earnings. The U.S. economy is at the very early stages of moving boomers from the peak of their productivity into retirement. As they age they will consume fewer goods (e.g., cars) and more services (e.g., physical therapy). It is much more difficult to achieve efficiency gains with those services. If the GDP declines, since it is roughly (workers x productivity), and investment values decline–as houses are now–then boomers will have less wealth to throw at the shrunken labor pool.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 1:55 PM
You’re free to ignore any comment, here or elsewhere, and we are free to ignore yours, or anyone else’s.
You live up, or down, to your nome de plume, nicely.
Entelechy on February 23, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Limerick :-) or requiring the office staff to wait around because you have to have a union member “facilities maintenance officer” change a burned out lightbulb.
On the plus side, perhaps our government health care will just give us all a quarterly full body MRI instead of an annual physical exam conducted by a PA or nurse practicioner.
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 1:56 PM
We know politicians can be bought with all that drug cartel money. Think how easy it will be to just buy a Boeing project engineer. No muss, no fuss, no ladders, no tunnels, just a little technical knowledge. And, it isn’t just drug money. If there wasn’t profit in smuggling illegals, big business would have no interest. Hell, maybe Boeing itself already has a contract for another “related” project. Come to think about it, this could be the perfect self perpetuating concept.
a capella on February 23, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Boeing’s time would be better spent giving the DHS and FBI a computer system with an organized database.
Limerick on February 23, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Can you quantify a bit?
Misleading? Is there something tangible you can point to to demonstrate that it wasn’t accidental? You seem to be speculating about my intentions.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:00 PM
The battle to seal the border has been lost. For now. This virtual fence is only for show.
For those of us who continue to believe that the concept of sealing our sovereign borders and enforcing existing immigration laws is a noble endeavor, well we’d best come to grips with the fact that we’re beaten. At least for the present.
We need to examine where we went wrong and ananlyze why we lost this battle. All of these so called border watch groups didn’t do nearly enough to help presidential candidates like Hunter, Tancredo and FDT. Especially in the area of fundraising. And these groups deserve harsh criticism for it. They became too involved in the promotion of their own little group and lost sight of the mission. A collection of small, selfish, self centered egomaniacs.
I also feel that the above mentioned candidates share some of the blame. Especially FDT. He ran such an extreme poor campaign. No winning strategy whatsoever. It should’ve been obvious to him early on that Rich Galen was working for McCain long before he, FDT, drop’d from the race. And all were too afraid to rock the GOP applecart.
Where do we go from here? I suggest learn to speak Spanish and smile/bow a lot. Learn to pack 2 or 3 families into one house. The elites have won this battle, for now, and will prove to us that this nation will no longer sustain a strong middle class. And we’d best be submissive. Darvin Dowdy
Darvin Dowdy on February 23, 2008 at 2:00 PM
From virtual fence to virtual health care. More than likely.
TexasDan on February 23, 2008 at 2:02 PM
I’ve seen the H2-B visas throw an entire town of farmworker African-Americans out of work. Ft. Valley, GA was never super rich, but about 10 years ago all the big pecan and peach orchards started using the H2 visas to bus in Mexican laborers to work….presto! no more jobs for the natives.
The Mexicans are housed in dorms on the property and bussed to town once a week to buy stuff with their cash salaries.
A year ago some dumb LA Times reporter wrote what was supposed to be a sob story piece about how the local merchants were suffering because they didn’t have their weekly visit from cash-carrying Mexicans due to the drought.
She included some BS line about how “diversification of the economy” meant that the orchard owners couldn’t hire locals any more. I read it waiting to see a doctor in Perry, GA, and probably looked like I was trying to catch flies or the flu or something. The only “diversification of the economy” in Ft. Valley is that seasonal laborers are now unemployed and depressed year round, and there are now taquerias to serve the illegals.
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 2:03 PM
There is a solution to your problem: hire American workers. Oh wait, there is that contempt again, because you would have to pay them a decent wage. Nice work you do, displacing American workers.
As for the rest of your analysis–if that is what you want to call it–you are saying that a decreasing supply of workers does not drive up real wages, and you are clearly misrepresenting laws of economics because you are blinded by your own political agenda and self-interest. Why don’t you just hire Americans like a good patriot instead of working against your fellow citizens?
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:03 PM
You are intentionally misrepresenting the laws of supply and demand to suit your own political agenda, which happens to be adverse to the American people.
‘Nuff said.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Coming in 2008!…Virtual Fence…a new game from DHS & Boeing Entertainment…available on XBOX, Wii, and Playstation…Es muy bueno!
CP on February 23, 2008 at 2:08 PM
In regard to tunneling under the fence…would this not be a great area for the Armed Services to test out their new munitions??
PappaMac on February 23, 2008 at 2:08 PM
With that I have to make a beer run. Just spewed my last one all over the monitor.
Limerick on February 23, 2008 at 2:09 PM
The “virtual fence” has not proven effective:
They do not know that this “virtual fence” works before they spend 64 million more of your money. This is a boondoggle, comrades.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:09 PM
You assume I’m still hiring people. Also, your economic assumption is that wealth would remain constant but only the size of the workforce would decrease. That isn’t going to happen.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:09 PM
PappaMac….no, just put lots of javelina on the US side of the fence. And gila monsters.
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 2:10 PM
What’s my agenda? I haven’t posted one, but apparently, through divine intervention, you’ve received a copy.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:13 PM
Which American workers? With 4-5% unemployment (much of which can be accounted for by considering workers in transition between jobs), the vast majority of workers already fill jobs. Your plan involves artificially inflating the value of low skill jobs to the level of higher skill jobs in order to allow the mythical “American workers” to take them. Who replaces them in their old jobs, though? The reality is that we have a labor shortage in this country, concentrated at the lowest and highest skill job sectors, which is being solved by two processes. The first is immigration, i.e. bringing the labor here to fill jobs that we need to get done; the second is outsourcing, or sending the jobs to where the labor exists. We can choose between these options, or put up with a greatly decreased standard of living due to economic collapse. Other countries face the same dilemma. The best way to help current and future American workers is to educate them so the can compete against others, worldwide, for the best jobs available, not to simply deem some jobs worthy of keeping based on nostalgia, and artificially inflate their value locally while the rest of the world passes us by.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 2:14 PM
So let me get this straight: less workers does not make an increased demand? Can you say this with a straight face?
Your sophistry and word games (e.g. “weath”) demonstrates your inability to comprehend a simple concept. You want to introduce vague abstractions to support your political agenda.
Then you hire American workers.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:17 PM
And your plan artificially introduces workers into an economy that does not need them to drive down wages. There is no labor shortage in this country, and your own unemployment statistics prove that. Stop spreading libelous fear mongering about a “labor shortage.” That’s just a code word for importing more unskilled slavery-lite.
When did Hot Air become a soapbox for the open borders and unrestricted immigration treason lobby?
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:22 PM
No, it reduces supply. Demand can decrease concurrently.
“Wealth” is something that governments and economists measure, in real or nominal terms. Adam Smith called his book “The Wealth of Nations”. Usually that book comes up when folks are talking about “supply and demand”. I haven’t heard Smith called a sophist for his use of the term, but maybe he has.
Past tense.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM
Calling the American worker “mythical.” That’s classic contempt for your countrymen. Shame on you.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:27 PM
We wanted this, but got this instead.
How much more then brick and steel does this thing cost?
It’ll only be any real use if they hire more Border Patrol to cover it. Unless it has the flash bangs and other non-leathal goodies it was supposed to have been equipped with.
- The Cat
MirCat on February 23, 2008 at 2:30 PM
Okay, so you are saying the law of supply and demand doesn’t exist. Thanks for that, professor. I’ll make a note of it.
And a debate about 17th century mercantilism isn’t going to help your argument, I’m sorry to say.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:30 PM
So they arrested 38 out of 100 and the rest went back to Mexico. Big deal. That was yesterday. What have they done today?
cjs1943 on February 23, 2008 at 2:31 PM
I was merely stating that you’re conjuring new American workers out of thin air in order to suit your own preferred (and misguided) policy ideas. Who is playing semantic games again? This is getting silly, so I’m done arguing for now. Adios!
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 2:32 PM
I’m saying that demand isn’t constant nor is it guaranteed to grow.
If we keep the supply of workers fixed against a demand curve that decreases, wages will decrease.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Making illegal residence a felony would be a great start.
Speakup on February 23, 2008 at 1:19 PM
I second that motion.
McCain can be absent for that senate vote.
maverick muse on February 23, 2008 at 1:21 PM
And Obama can vote….PRESENT. BWahahahahahahaha
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 2:48 PM
Yes dedalus, that’s the whole point, isn’t it?
And the way you get the demand curve to decrease? By bringing in low wage workers to fill jobs.
If you keep the supply of workers fixed against a demand curve that increases (due to not hiring illegals) wages will increase.
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM
My goddam fence would work great! That’s why the OPEN BORDERS ZEALOTS fight against it so hard.
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM
“Conjuring new American workers out of thin air?”
We have an unemployment rate in this country. You apparently do not want to recognize this or you are deliberately ignoring it to suit your own political agenda, which again, is adverse to the American worker. The chicken-little-labor-shortage lie is getting really old.
If you need a comparative analysis, Japan has an older population, and they are not importing slaves and driving down wages of their own citizens.
I call them how I see them, and you appear to not like your countrymen very much. Hopefully people like you will be marginalized and shamed out of this absurd discourse about this false need you have for importing more unskilled, uneducated, illiterate and impoverished to replace Americans to make a dollar.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 2:49 PM
The Federal Government should be deporting all Illegal Aliens with the same efficiency as collecting tax dollars out of my paychecks….
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 2:51 PM
Students and unskilled American workers can’t get jobs because the OPEN BORDERS ZEALOTS want to give the jobs to the Illegal Aliens over those Americans…
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Oh wait! Obama said that’s not happening to blacks here in America! What was I thinking?
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 2:55 PM
Bringing in additional workers would increase the supply of workers and bring wages down if demand for workers remained constant. However, to the extent those workers increased demand by engaging in consumption (eating at Burger King, buying goods at WalMart, etc.) they would increase demand. Enough to offset their depressive effect on wages? Depends.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Once again our government finds a cheap and ineffective way to protect us. Doncha’ just love em?
pocomoco on February 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Show me how the American people have benefitted from Ted Kennedy’s Immigration Act of 1965? They haven’t.
You want to import the third world. You should be considered in the Kennedy camp of thought, like Juan McShame. Enough of your theories, just admit you would rather make a buck and betray your countrymen and we’ll call it a day.
petit bourgeois on February 23, 2008 at 3:02 PM
Just to clear this up, most of the unemployment rate is due to workers in transit between jobs, and does not represent a permanent group of people without opportunities for employment. As a simple illustration, imagine someone loses their job in Chicago tomorrow, and goes on the job market. Just because there is an open position in Atlanta doesn’t mean that that person can easily transition to the new job., since both he and the employer in Atlanta are tied down, in many ways, to their own support structures in their own localities. The person in Chicago also has limitations on what kinds of jobs he may fill due to training, education, physical ability, and his own needs to support his lifestyle or pay off previous debts. It may be advantageous to him to pass up a menial job opportunity and hold out for something better, depending on the circumstances. Issues like this contribute to the unemployment rate that we have, such that most economists consider 4-5% unemployment near “full employment.”
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 3:05 PM
Talk about getting things backwards. HotAir remains a soapbox for different points of view mainly on the right, but, if it has any bias, it’s rather obviously been one for extreme immigration hawks who believe that anyone who disagrees with any of their (not always explicitly stated or mutually consistent) policy prescriptions, or the self-destructive way that some of them choose to express themselves on the candidates and issues, cannot be “true conservatives” and deserve to be considered “traitors” or members of a “treason lobby.” If and when dissenting voices are chased off the site, and only people who ardently support the views of
CK MacLeod on February 23, 2008 at 3:09 PM
If and when dissenting voices are chased off the site, and only people who ardently support the views of less than 5% of the electorate are welcome, then it’ll have all of the relevance and appeal of a nut-group newsletter.
CK MacLeod on February 23, 2008 at 3:12 PM
You think I support that immigration act? Nope.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Once again our government finds a cheap and ineffective way to protect us. Doncha’ just love em?
pocomoco on February 23, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Cheap and ineffective? Just who pays for the medical treatment at the emergency rooms where employers of Illegal Aliens send their workers?
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM
It’s called….”Privatizing the profits…..Socializing the costs”!
DfDeportation on February 23, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Illegal Immigrant Charged With Homicide in Deadly Minnesota School Bus Crash
TheBigOldDog on February 23, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Computers may be great for the Shuttle, in fact it requires four of them working in parallel to insure that, if a ‘glitch’ occurs in one of them, one of the other three will take over, which doesn’t speak well of NASA’s confidence in computers.
And, as one who has worked in the computer industry for 30 years, in no way would I trust them for the safety of my life.
The ‘virtual fence’ is a joke, and has been stated in this thread they will, eventally, be circumvented.
pocomoco on February 23, 2008 at 3:24 PM
Off Topic: Ras has McCain up over Obama 46 to 43 in the daily tracking poll, FWIW.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 3:27 PM
If your car has anti-lock brakes, an air bag, or stability control you are trusting computers for your safety. Depending its embedded systems you a probably trusting computers just to get it to start.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 3:33 PM
I’m surprised, but glad to hear. Since we aren’t preparing for a Rudy v. Hillary race, I’ll give it appropriate weight.
dedalus on February 23, 2008 at 3:35 PM
Yeah, it’s 8 months out, and anything could happen. What you can take away from it though is that a McCain vs. Obama race isn’t likely to be the kind of slaughter that many conservatives think, based on the current state of the race.
Big S on February 23, 2008 at 3:39 PM
Big S, that 4-5% unemployment rate doesn’t count all the folks I talked about in small rural towns like Ft. Valley, GA who were seasonal agricultural workers who now have not even seasonal work.
Here’s another reason to be sorta OK with McCain (or at least see that he’s better than Obama)
funky chicken on February 23, 2008 at 3:42 PM
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