Kosovo’s independence
posted at 5:40 pm on February 17, 2008 by Bryan
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I don’t have a strong opinion on whether Kosovo should or shouldn’t be independent, but there is a legitimate thing to fear from it and that’s that it may encourage separatists elsewhere into launching breakaway movements. Kosovo is majority Muslim; we might be seeing the birth of a new Islamic and Islamist state in Europe. Or we might be seeing the birth of a genuinely Muslim democracy in Europe. Time will tell.
Russia undoubtedly fears that Kosovo’s moves not only destabilize its longtime ethnic allies in Serbia, but that it may also renew separatist movements around the Caucasus, in Dagestan and Chechnya particularly. The Russians have fought two brutal wars in Chechnya, both of which started out as more or less conventional separatist movements but morphed into true jihadist movements. The jihadists in Chechnya have turned up as fighters as far away as Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Palestinian territories. Chechnya’s wars have influenced the global spread and ambitions of al Qaeda. The Chechen wars have largely died down in the past couple of years, but Kosovo’s independence, if it succeeds and turns in a jihadist direction, may encourage what’s left of the Chechen jihad to renew its fight. There isn’t much left of that jihad; most of its former leaders are dead and the rest have chosen to side with Russia. But that latter can change, and it’s always possible to recruit new jihadists to a fight. That’s a fight that Russia ought to win and the free world needs Russia to win, if it happens. Whatever we might justifiably think of and even fear from Putin and a resurgent Russia, the world doesn’t need a jihadist republic with caliphate ambitions anywhere, anytime, in European Kosovo or in the Caucasus. If Russia stands in the way of that happening, then Russia is in the right.
That’s not to say that Kosovo will become an Islamist state. It’s too early to say.
So where I come down on Kosovo’s independence is to hope for the best but be aware that it’s likely to encourage some of the world’s worst actors and jihadist revolutionaries to get on with their own separatist schemes.
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Be interesting to see how many dems push for democracy for Kosovo as opposed to one in Iraq.
But again we arent for making an Islamic state in Europe (Is already that with Albania) but a free state that has muslims.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:46 PM
We should not be involved in that crap.
Notice why Spain is not recognizing this? Russia and Georgia with South Ossetia and Akbazia.
Will these nations recognize Tibet and East Turkestan (Xinjiang)They both have a historical presidence of independent nation-states.
Win Win Win on February 17, 2008 at 5:46 PM
I hate to be pessimistic, but ever since Billy Jeff started bombing Serbia from six miles in the air, I have been concerned that we were backing toe wrong side. I hate to agree with Putin on anything, but I believe he’s gotten this one right from the start.
sondiehl on February 17, 2008 at 5:49 PM
Spain is doing what it is doing for the same reason it pulled troops out of Iraq–no cajones.
davidk on February 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM
Oops! “…”the wrong side.”
sondiehl on February 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM
I wish this & many other troubles upon Putie-Putie & his thugs. It will keep them occupied, preventing them from any imperial ambitions.
jgapinoy on February 17, 2008 at 5:52 PM
Can we really fail to allow people the right to self determination ? If we dont stand up for that in Kosovo how can we in Afganistan and Iraq ?
We are required to do no more for Kosovo that say “Good for you”. Its their democracy let them stand up for it.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 5:52 PM
Clinton bombed the Serbs into submission. What say you, Mrs. Clinton?
SouthernGent on February 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Good or bad? Hard to say. On one hand their are Europeans, and all wanting their health care, four week vacations, and
and unions. On the other hand extremists could step in and start a hornets nest. We are looking at what is basically a big city state. Don’t know how they expect to support themselves.
Limerick on February 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM
Kosovars will now have no jobs, electricity etc. and will be a welfare state relying on EU support.
Good work.
Win Win Win on February 17, 2008 at 5:58 PM
I’m Orthodox. This chaps my ass.
We bombed Christians to save muslims, and we got 9/11 in return. What shall we receive for supporting this abortion?
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 5:59 PM
A cautious stance is appropriate. You see the same split you see in countries like Iran: urbanites are secular, rural poor are more fundamentalist.
As it is, the folks in charge are pro-western and secular. Hey, they seem cool with Israel:
BillINDC on February 17, 2008 at 6:02 PM
Kosovo is majority Muslim because of ethnic cleansing by the Communist regime against the Serbs. Heard of the KLA? The Kosovo Liberation Army is Islamofascist and is now being handed it’s American aided victory.
It’s not playing the apologist for the Serbs to point out that the Croats served the Nazis during WWII, that the claims against them for war crimes have ignored the war crimes of the Croats and Muslims and that we have in fact aided an Islamofascist terror movement to create another Gaza-stan right in the Balkans.
We are already seeing the consequences in the Islamofascist attacks in Macedonia and we will live to see the terror exported to Bosnia, Greece and yes… Serbia.
I am not an apologist for the Serbs, neither am I seeking to divert the public’s attention from 72 blow-jobs from an intern by bombing the nearest non-Muslim country of convenience.
If we had stayed out of the region the 500 year old struggle would be sorting it self out just fine and we wouldn’t still be there perpetuating the violence by virtue of taking sides.
DANEgerus on February 17, 2008 at 6:03 PM
*slaps head* There’s a separatist movement in Spain for crying out loud.
The mythical “Kosovars” are Albanians whose new independent state shares a border with Albania. They’ve already publicly discussed unifying with Albania.
But you’re okay with the imperial ambitions of Albania?
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 6:08 PM
It’s my impression that most Americans still really don’t know what our war over there was about.
CP on February 17, 2008 at 6:08 PM
thanks aengus…..any and all info helps. Must admit I know few ‘facts’ about the place.
Limerick on February 17, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Monica Lewinsky.
SouthernGent on February 17, 2008 at 6:14 PM
We went to a restaurant a few years ago in the city we live in in Belgium, and the owner, upon discovering that we are American, glowingly declared himself to be from Kosovo, “the 51st state”. He came damn close to giving us our meal on the house. Anecdotal, but it gives me hope.
JS on February 17, 2008 at 6:14 PM
The war was about supplying arms to a group of Muslim Extremists aka, The KLA….remember? Clinton backed them instead of the country, and it’s leader(s) who opposed the NAZIS during WWII….remember?
DfDeportation on February 17, 2008 at 6:16 PM
At this point in history, how will they stop it from becoming a jihadist stomping ground? W/O a great or small Satan in there to keep the order, what can the average peace-desiring person do when the bad boys come to town? Who will stop them from roasting them alive at will? Really, I see nothing good coming from this.
bbz123 on February 17, 2008 at 6:19 PM
And which muslim democracy might they use as a model??
There is NO democracy ALLOWED in islam. islam is all.
Surely they are not going to model their new democracy from past experience…
All I see here is new training camps and a new front.
Talon on February 17, 2008 at 6:28 PM
They seem pretty good at making themselves our saviors while simultaneously being among our greatest threats.
Kosovo needs KFOR. Whether KFOR will prevent Jihadists from showing up is unclear, but there will be Westerners there to help keep order (unless, of course, Serbia or Serbians go nuts, a genuine concern, and the other reason Kosovo independence is not unvarnished good news). As JS mentioned, most Kosovars and Albanians seem to love America, so that’s a good starting point, even if it hasn’t quite been terror-free.
calbear on February 17, 2008 at 6:28 PM
We didn’t go into Kosovo because we loved the Kosovars, agreed with their politics or thought their religion was super. They invented ethnic cleansing in the 80’s and they supported terrorism. But at the end of the day, they were also the victims of (attempted) genocide. And no matter who the victim is, and no matter what they did to bring it on, genocide is one of those crimes that we as free people cannot tolerate.
I come down strongly on the side of Kosovo independence. I sure as hell would not to live in their country, but I think they need a country. Just as the Jews need Israel, because the Germans, Poles and French can’t be trusted to protect them, so too do these Muslim Europeans need a country because they can’t count on their European neighbours, Serbian masters or Obama’s America to stand up for them.
rjjago on February 17, 2008 at 6:28 PM
Most of the ethnic Albanian Muslims in Kosovo entered illegally. This is never mentioned by the MSM. When these Albanians became the majority, they promptly demanded independence. Bush supports them, of course. We all kow he loves illegal immigrants.
It won’t be long before Mexicans become the majority in Arizona and Southern California; and if they proclaim independence, will the UN back them?
infidel65 on February 17, 2008 at 6:30 PM
Let’s just give back the southwestern states to Mexico too. Hey Canada–you want a few of those northern states? Why not. I didn’t back the bombing of Serbia in 1998 and the news out of Belgrade has been nothing but sour against the Albanians ever since.
My grandfather was a Chetnick during WWII. He fought Hitler AND Tito’s Communism. Eventually his land was taken away and his family murdered–parents and sister. He eventually made it to Italy, met my grandmother and then to Germany to live in a refugee camp before being permitted to come here in the early 1950’s. He always recognized Serbian Royalty until the day the man died.
Giving Kosovo BACK to those KLA terrorist, drug-running, Osama Bin Ladin thugs is just freakin’ wonderful. Way to go State Department.
robblefarian on February 17, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Some must-read opinions on this issue:
http://www.vdare.com/misc/070614_kleen.htm
http://www.vdare.com/fallon/070709_chronicles.htm
http://www.vdare.com/sailer/balkans.htm
bucktowndusty on February 17, 2008 at 6:36 PM
This reminds me of the line in Hillary For You And Me about “not go to war, negotiate” or something like that. I wanted to respond with the question, “Like President Clinton negotiated with the Serbs, Senator?”
Bigfoot on February 17, 2008 at 6:38 PM
SELECTIVELY SECOND LOOK AT RON PAUL!!
Reaps on February 17, 2008 at 6:40 PM
I think the lesson of Kosovo is that nation states are drawn on cultural lines. Ethnicity, language, religion being the most salient aspects of culture. Kosovo was set on the path to independence in the ’70’s. During that period ethnic Albanians became the overwhelming majority, replacing the ethnic Serbians, once that happened independence was inevitable. Assimilation preserves the nation state, multiculturalism dissolves it.
Kosovo could very easily become a jihadist state. Now that they are independent the Saudis can become an even bigger influence, fertilizing them with more Wahhabism. When Kosovo forces their women to wear headscarves and bans alcohol it will already be too late.
Theworldisnotenough on February 17, 2008 at 6:44 PM
Everyone relax, Mav’s gettin ready to be pres. He’ll clean up that mess.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 6:45 PM
There’s so many things wrong with this I don’t know where to start. There are mass graves of Jews and Serbs littered throughout the Balkans.
The real Srebrenica Genocide by Peter North (Warning: garaphic photographs)
As soon as the Serbs fight back suddenly they’re mass murderers who need to be bombed to kingdom come and have their country divided up like pumpkin pie.
Also if the Poles, French and Germans are to be judged eternally evil for their conduct in WWII could you please hold the Croats, Albanians, “Bosniaks” and “Kosovars” to the same standard?
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 6:47 PM
There was no genocide in Kosovo. We were told by the Clinton administration, the MSM, the Europeans and the UN that at least 100,000 people had been slaughtered. Some claims were as high as 250,000. The real number was 3,000. Tragic, yes, but not unusual in a civil war.
Maybe there are still undiscovered mass graves, but I doubt it. Kosovo is only about the size of Rhode Island.
infidel65 on February 17, 2008 at 6:48 PM
some more links:
http://www.vdare.com/fallon/060720_neo_ottoman_empire.htm
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/060312_serbia.htm
bucktowndusty on February 17, 2008 at 6:48 PM
Ok, so, my family and I are traveling to Greece around Junish… Will this be a problem for us? Is the potential for violence in Greece greater because of this?
spmat on February 17, 2008 at 6:49 PM
Indepdendence for Kosovo is inevitable. Therefore, we should not fight it. However, the parts with Serbian majorities and containing Serb scared ground (battle sites, monasteries, etc.) should be detached from Kosovo and given to Serbia. This solution was available years ago and made even more sense then as the Serb minority was then much larger, but Milosovic “tried to have it all” by attempting to cleanse the Albanians and claim the area entirely for Serbs. The Serbs both in Serbia and Kosovo have paid a high price for his folly.
“DANEgerus” unfortunately has it wrong. The “solution” that would have occurred from staying out of the fracticide would have been the killing of hundreds of thousands of Albanians and the dispersal of the survivors throutout Europe. I do agreee that this was a European problem that we should not have had to get involved in. Unfortuntately, while the Europeans talk big about taking responsibilities in their areas of influence, they are craven cowards.
ptolemy on February 17, 2008 at 6:56 PM
I fully support the right of the Texican people to their own independent state free from their American masters. /sarc
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 6:57 PM
Well, we are talking about muslims.
SouthernGent on February 17, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Agree, or not, with the independence of Kosovo, or with Clinton’s involvement, the statement by ptolemy is absolutely true.
Entelechy on February 17, 2008 at 7:02 PM
I have read reports of violence in Greece….perpetrated by Albanian immigrants. Maybe if we give them Athens they’ll be mollified.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Thought experiment:
What is a ‘nation’?
Quoting William Amos :
Berkley should take notice of this event. They should organize the bay area, with 4 times the population, much larger economy, and do the same. Declare independence from the US. You know they want to. They could make their own drug laws, raise the minimum wage to a value they believe to be appropriate, set their own immigration policy, make their own tax laws, and print their own currency.
Once the newly independent state of Northern California signs a mutual defense treaty with their natural allies, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and Iran, the US Federal government would not be able to do anything about it. We certainly are not going to risk nuclear war over a break away province like Berkley.
rockhauler on February 17, 2008 at 7:10 PM
I think that’s precisely the wrong message. Think of the most stable nations of the past century or so: United States, Canada, and Switzerland are the ones that come to mind. See a pattern there? They are among the most heterogeneous countries in the West. States defined strictly on cultural lines have severe problems, since cultures don’t stay still. (Japan is a notable exception here, but any nation that expands so rapidly, then gets rolled back, can’t truly be called “stable.”)
calbear on February 17, 2008 at 7:15 PM
Excuse me for injecting my California perspective here, but I’ve long looked at the Kosovo problem through the prism of the Mexican reconquista of the Southwest.
The fact that at the time of the war in Kosovo everyone downplayed the possibility of Kosovan independence convinces me that people just don’t understand the power of demographics and cultural invasion.
I fear for the future of an American California.
Nessuno on February 17, 2008 at 7:18 PM
Which is why I support the cutting off of all US money to Berkeley and insitution of a fee for any incoming goods to pay US taxes for use of US sovereign space to Berkeley.
William Amos on February 17, 2008 at 7:28 PM
bucktowndusty
Thanks for those links. Should clear up a few foggy minds who have fallen for bald faced lies.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 7:29 PM
I assume this comment is satirical but the reason Bezerkerly should not secede is the same reason Indian independence could not have happened prior to 1945. Japan would have seized India and Mexico will hypothetically seize Northern California.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 7:33 PM
I was in Greece last Spring. We were on the Sea Diamond (The week before it sank.) I had friends go last August/September. They could not get into some ports due to forest fires. My parents were there in October. No problems. I am guessing that you are going to tourst type places. Everyone was friendly. Enjoy your trip.
dentalque on February 17, 2008 at 7:37 PM
The minute the Kosovo Islamists start dying is when the Liberals will start screaming for our military to “step in”. There will be George Clooney and Bruce Springsteen making statements in the press, and Madeline Albright will rear her ugly head to give us her opinion about why we should intercede. And all the while, the Iraqis will be watching with great interest.
davecatbone on February 17, 2008 at 7:38 PM
The unreformed Koran will cause nothing but terror.
Sadly.
Look for a bad future from this folly.
profitsbeard on February 17, 2008 at 7:48 PM
These are Christian lands, and we are ceding them in a religious war. This is good, how? Have any of you idiots read the history of this region? Our government is surrendering to the enemy in Kosovo.
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Mr. Amos. on February 17, 2008 at 7:28 PM
I would like to suggest that perhaps you miss the implications or unintended consequences of your position. Perhaps I misunderstand your position.
I would suggest that warfare has a preliminary stage that is based on demographics where propaganda is the primary battlefield. In the example I’ve posed above, once Berkley becomes independent of the US Federal government, the residents of Berkley then advance their campaign on their immediate neighbors. A war of conquest by non violent means.
You are apparently looking at the movement of ‘self determination’ as an expression of a group, whereas I see it as a sign of maniacal politicians pushing and pulling at the levers of human behavior as a means of gaining for themselves greater and greater power over a region.
Aengus on February 17, 2008 at 7:33 PM
I was imagining Northern California aligning themselves with other socialist/communist nations for mutual support and defense against the US Federal government.
But to extend the analogy, Southern California switching allegiance to Mexico would be similar to German expansion in 1938. Or your example of Texas. Presuming that the leadership of the Mexican government is as expansionist as that of Germany in 1938.
So the point I would make is Kosovo declaring independence is only a symptom of greater forces at work.
How far the leaders of those forces are willing to go is an open question.
rockhauler on February 17, 2008 at 8:13 PM
From the Daily Mail:
At least they’re ready to fly out. Must not be any Iranian Navy nearby to surrender to.
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:16 PM
These are your grandfather’s muslims. Nothing to fear here. One thing I dislike more than an angry muslim, an angry russian. Serbs and Russians are one in the same. The new republic of Kosovo will be a good thing.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Not to rain on your comment, but hold your tongue. Serbs and Russians, while comming from a similar cultural, ethnic, and linguistic background, are most certainly not “one in the same.” Hell, I’ve been chewed out by a Russian for suggesting something similar about them and Ukrainians. There is something to be said for Slavic Pride!
the goddess anna on February 17, 2008 at 8:23 PM
I agree with you 444%.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 8:25 PM
Check this article out by Bad Eagle:
http://www.badeagle.com/journal/archives/2008_02.html
bucktowndusty on February 17, 2008 at 8:28 PM
They are both Russian Orthodox Christians.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 8:29 PM
I was trying to inject some levity into this subject, considering that it doesn’t seem to be the best news of the week and all.
the goddess anna on February 17, 2008 at 8:32 PM
I think this is great news. We’ve got iraqi’s on our side and now a country will blossom due to our support of a muslim people. Badmouthing the good ol’ USA in Kosovo might get you an a$$whoopin.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 8:36 PM
At least they’re ready to fly out. Must not be any Iranian Navy nearby to surrender to.
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Comment of the year. Nice.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 8:38 PM
funky chicken on February 17, 2008 at 8:44 PM
Huh??
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:44 PM
Serbs and Russians are both Russian Orthodox Christians. Please correct me if I have mispoken, but I believe this is the case.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 8:50 PM
robblefarian:
To your grandfather and his family: Memory Eternal!!
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Wow. Britain sent multitudes of troops to displace the Serbs and capture their territory for the worthless “Kosovars” and yet when it comes down to it all glory be to the US and its Muslim allies.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 8:52 PM
OK..I misunderstood you. Sorry.
That said, you did “kind of” mispeak. There are Orthodox Christians. Serb, Russian, Greek, Fin, American, Antiochian, Alexandrian…. those are administrative jurisdictions. All Orthodox are in communion with each other.
No biggy. Most people confuse us for Catholics……
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 8:54 PM
Lets see,on one hand it looks promising,Democracy.
On the otherhand,it might not be promising,free Jihads
roaming in a state that could go either way.
And if it does go badly,take a peek at some videos on
how well the Russian soldiers were treated by the Chechens!
canopfor on February 17, 2008 at 8:55 PM
Not if your a Muslim among Muslims.
I’m afraid for your bubble THE CHOSEN ONE.
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 8:56 PM
BL@KBIRD on February 17, 2008 at 8:56 PM
No bubble here blackie. There is a civil war amongst muslims going on right now. Not just Sunni v Shia either. I truly believe there is a silent contingent of muslims who like the US and the way we do business. Problem is though, they are fearful to say so. Maybe it won’t happen in our lifetime, but sooner or later the good in all humans will defeat the hate that divides us. God willing, or allah willing.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 9:06 PM
I’m not sure that’s such a bad thing, as long as it’s in a peaceful and democratic manner. Is there anything a priori wrong with having an independent Basqueland or Flanders or Frisia or Scotland or…Kurdistan? Or, for that matter, an independent Quebec? (I think a lot of Anglophone Canadians would love it!)
Aren’t self-determination and local government at the core of conservatism?
Tzetzes on February 17, 2008 at 9:15 PM
As for jihadism, which is different from an independence movement, I’ve been given to understand (though can’t say if it’s true) that one Russian way of dealing with those bastards is to slit their throats, put their genitals in their mouths and send them home to their families sewn up in a pigskin. Anyone know if that’s true? (Don’t think it’s on Scopes.)
Tzetzes on February 17, 2008 at 9:18 PM
That’s what it comes down to for a lot of pseudo-conservatives such as yourself. The “Kosovars” put on a (phony) ostentatious display of pro-US support complete with placards, paintings and the re-naming of streets (Clinton Avenue, Blair Boulevard etc.).
The British, whilst providing thousands of troops for both Gulf wars and the “liberation” of Bosnia and Kosovo, fail in their duty to worship the US (an unpardonable sin).
Therefore the “Kosovars” are great people whilst the British deserve to be destroyed and the more Europeans (i.e. evil people) that perish with them the better.
You are not operating from a moral or principled stand. You are operating from the idea that those who flatter you are the good and those who fail to buttress your self-love deserve damnation.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:19 PM
The wrong message? It is a fact, period.
The US, Switzerland, and Canada are not heterogenous in the ways that I described. Do people of different religion, ethnicity, and language live within the borders of these nations? Sure. Do each of these countries have a single dominant language, religion and ethnicity? Absolutely. In the small areas of these countries where this is not true you always have conflict.
Canada is “heterogenous” and still stable, duh. No one immigrant group has sufficient numbers to promote a unified seperate identity. Also, Canada does not share a border with a country with whom differs from it greatly in ethnicity, language or religion. What Canada does have is a province that speaks French predominantly in a country that speaks English predominantly. That’d be Quebec.
If the majority of Canada spoke French or the majority of Quebec spoke English that idea of a sepearte Quebec would never even come up.
The US is heterogenous? We have one major ethnicity, one major religion, and one major language. (Black people in this country have no relevant connections to any culture outside of America. We all speak English, go to Christian churchs) European immigrants did not differ significantly in ethnicity, and share Christianity. Where they did differ was language and they were assimilated through public and private means. The imperative to assimilate was very high back then. We have Asian immigrants that readily learn English and are majority Christian. We have one unassimilated group that differs from the majority in two areas, instead of one, ethnicity and language it is any suprise that they took to the streets to demand their “rights”?
Switzerland as an example is a poor one. Swiss immigration has has not been widspread until recently and the Swiss have never, ever been open to allowing immigrants full access to Swiss society. (Brief timeline) Switzerland has 3 official languages. And like all stable nations is has one dominant language, German. And not the German spoken in Germany. Swiss German is distinct to the country and the language broadcast on television, spoken on news broadcasts. And note that Switzerland is not a EU member state and determines their own immigration policies, which means they have a stable border. Again, stable dominant language, stable dominant ethnicity, stable dominant religion, is a stable country. When Swiss immigration got out of hand, at least from the Swiss citizens perspective. Things changed quickly.
And immigration in general hasn’t been exactly smooth in Switzerland. The SVP has gained 27% of parliament on a populism an hostility toward immigrants.
The US Switzerland, and Canada are not heterogenous in the ways that I described.
If you want good examples of heterogenous countries that are stable, sort of, try Belgium. Two major groups and languages Dutch 60% and French 40%. And they cannot form a national goverment.
And this is in the middle of a stable Europe. Imagine if this was in the Middle East? Well we do not have to imagine. The Lebanese fell victim to their multiculturalism. They were the only ones foolish enough to allow the “Palestinians” into their country after Israel was formed. What did they get after the “Palestinians” had a generation to change the demographics of the country? 15 years of civil war thank you very much. Jordan, Syria, Egypt never had the problem because they never let them in.
Kosovo had one major ethnicity and religion that was replaced with another ethnicity and religion. The war was predictable, and Kosovo’s independence is as well.
Nation states are drawn on cultural lines, period. Had Western powers not drawn the lines in the Middle East the countries would have formed very differently and would have formed along cultural lines. There is no way Sunni and Shia would have come together to form Iraq. They would have been two smaller countries or combined with Saudi Arabia and Iran most likely. You can easily see the difference between an area with a single ethnicity Kurdistan, a single religion Sunnis in Anbar, and the ethnic cleansing in a mixed Baghdad.
Since it is your opnion that culture is a poor choice to define a nation state what exactly do you suggest define us in 2050, when whites are a not the majority and 30% of the nation is Hispanic? Our recent experience with illegal immigrants and their open rebellion against our laws and their lack of recognition of our border suggests that particular demographic change may not happen all that smoothly.
Theworldisnotenough on February 17, 2008 at 9:22 PM
I presume that you are being sarcastic but I would be willing to wager one of those large gourmet coffees that Putin sees it as NATO/EU/US hegemony.
rockhauler on February 17, 2008 at 9:24 PM
As for jihadism…..
Tzetzes on February 17,2008 at 9:18PM.
Tzetzes: The only stories I remember is that was done
by Serbs,to the father and sons,while each
watched,lets not forget the horrors that were
done to the woman!
canopfor on February 17, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Not sure if you should always call Canada stable, after all we did have 2 referendums on quebec seperation, and 2 constitutional messes put forth, neither of which have solved any of the problem with our constitution. And at least one of the referendums on quebec came very close to passing, had it not been for certain violations, they probably would have.
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on February 17, 2008 at 9:25 PM
I don’t know where he’s operating from, but I’m operating from the standpoint that those who surrender even an inch of Christendom to the enemy are not doing their duty. (And the Brits are surrendering an entire island).
HerrMorgenholz on February 17, 2008 at 9:26 PM
We protestantinized Catholic immigrants, we must do the same to Islam. Our efforts in this area have been lacking as well as all assimilation efforts.
Though a protestantinized, properous Iraq would go along way in that effort. It would be hard for the hardliners to keep rattling swords when thier citizens have friends and relatives that live side by side with other sects, and Americans in a bustling growing independent Iraq.
Theworldisnotenough on February 17, 2008 at 9:28 PM
I tried to tell him….
Theworldisnotenough on February 17, 2008 at 9:29 PM
A lot of variables to consider here. I think it is impossible at this point to figure out which way the ball will roll.
But it can get very ugly very quickly. Will Putin get involved with troops? Where will the EU come down on this? I lot of countries have a vested interest in the outcome. As do some groups like AQ. This is troubling for me. It is the kind of unstable and undetermable situation that the world faced in this area in 1914. We all know where that one went.
Watch carefully my friends.
conservnut on February 17, 2008 at 9:34 PM
If it does get sticky, thank god we have Mav on the way to keep Putey in check.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Putin can think what he likes. I just find the canonisation of Iraqis and Albanians ridiculous. Sistani is as anti-Israel as they come but no one cares.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Not sure if you should always call Canada stable,….
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on February 17,2008
at 9:25PM.
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog: Yes we had a referendums
but its peacefull,if Quebec thought that they could
seperate through force,than it would be the murdering
part I would object to!
canopfor on February 17, 2008 at 9:41 PM
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:19 PM
I’m not a pseudo conservative dude. I am a proud member of the SILENT MAJORITY. A moderate if you will.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Then get ye to Michigan or Minnieapolis. Or Kosovo for that matter.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:44 PM
To hear Geraldo report it on FOX tonight, the “secular Muslims” of Kosovo feel nothing but warmth and gratitude for the United States now that they’ve declared independence.
Oh reeeeaaaalllly???
This video puts the lie to his (as per usual) mistaken viewpoint:
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/191291.php
Alalazoo on February 17, 2008 at 9:45 PM
I’m quite finished with hopes and well-wishing in these matters.
Kralizec on February 17, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Bush’s critics want to call Iraq the biggest foreign policy blunder of the last century, or in history, or whatever. But if, God forbid, another war breaks out over this or Kosovo (which is very pro-American now) becomes Islamist and anti-American in the future, then Clinton’s unauthorized and unilateral war there may turn out to be a huge blunder. History will judge. Let’s hope there’s not more chaos.
CP on February 17, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Albanians are actually very secular muslims. They identify themselves as Albanian first and Muslim second.
Its Tommy on February 17, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Pardon. Ignore that video.
When it was sent to me, I was told it was in Kosovo, but it’s actually in Belgrade.
But Geraldo is still wrong, as time will prove.
Alalazoo on February 17, 2008 at 9:48 PM
You’re not silent enough for me.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:49 PM
Like fun they do.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:51 PM
Exactly, the only people who were doing the mass murder were the Muslims there. The Serbians were fighting to stop the mass murder and guess whose side Billy took? The 6th Century murdering bastard’s side.
Tim Burton on February 17, 2008 at 9:52 PM
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:49 PM
We only make ourselves known when neocons like yourself put the Republican party in a bad light.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Okay its bedtime for me. Goodnight.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:53 PM
Much thanks to you!
Also, someone made the point of Serbs and Russians being one and the same–this can’t be farther from the truth. After we split Europe into Communism states, a lot of Serbs (like my grandfather) had their lands confiscated. Tito was backed by the Russians. Trust, there’s no love there. My wife’s grandmother was Ukranian and she had to enter the US as a Serb. The animosity towards Russia has always been there. Slavic peoples have their own identities and are very proud.
Also, Russian Orthodoxy is not quite the same as Serbian Orthodoxy. Which isn’t quite the same as Greek Orthodoxy. All Christian, obviously–but different in small ways.
robblefarian on February 17, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Um, I’m not a neocon and I didn’t even mention the Republican Party.
Night.
aengus on February 17, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Clinton bombed the Serbs into submission.What you say
Mrs.Clinton?
SouthernGent on February 17,2008 at 5:55PM.
SouthernGent: And don’t forget, Clinton accidently took
out the Chinese Embassy at around Christmas
time!
canopfor on February 17, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Tim Burton on February 17, 2008 at 9:52 PM
Blatant lie.
THE CHOSEN ONE on February 17, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Why wait for time to tell?
I can tell you right now.
OK, well I can not tell you if a “genuinely Muslim democracy in Europe” will occur, although I do think that it is rather unlikely, but I can tell you what will happen to it if it does.
You recall that old bit about how a democracy will eventually bankrupt itself as the people find out more and more that they can vote themselves more and more from the public treasury?
Well when the Muslims find out that they can vote themselves more and more Sharia, which will be basically right away, that’s what they will do and whamo gazamo !!!! there goes any democracy down the you-know-what pretty damn fast.
MB4 on February 17, 2008 at 10:01 PM
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