Good lord: 18 people shot at Northern Illinois University? Update: At least one dead; Update: Five Six dead
posted at 5:15 pm on February 14, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Sounds like another VTech. Not much information yet. Standby.
Update: The university webpage says the scene is secure but no word on victims.
Update: VTech redux: It happened inside a lecture hall and the gunman’s suspected dead by suicide.
Update: Like I say, VTech redux: “A viewer who e-mailed CBS 2 said that her brother was in the lecture hall where the shooting happened. ‘He says that the gunmen was a white male dressed in all black. He kicked the door in and opened fire. My brother dove under the desk, and popped his head up to see the gunmen was reloading. He grabbed his girlfriend’s hand and ran to the library where they been in lockdown since.’”
Update: Another student says it was a shotgun. I’m skeptical.
Update: CNN has backed off the number 18 but it’s in the ballpark of 15, and three or four of them have head wounds.
Update: A pistol and a shotgun:
Sophomore Geoff Alberti of Geneva told his parents he was in geology class when the gunman, carrying both a piston and a shotgun, entered the auditorium-style classroom through an emergency exit. The shooter did not say anything before opening fire on the class, he told his parents.
“He said at least 20 rounds were fired,” said his mother, Marilyn.
Update: The gunman’s dead and at least one other person.
Update: Oddly, the hospital is keeping a running tally on its website of how many victims have arrived. 13 and counting.
Update: “Calmly”:
The man entered the room from the back, behind the professor, and began shooting without saying a word, Sundstrom said, firing in the general direction of the students. He emptied his clip of ammunition and calmly reloaded before resuming firing.
Update: An odd detail:
Student Edward Robinson told WLS that the gunman appeared to target students in one part of the lecture hall.
”It was almost like he knew who he wanted to shoot,” Robinson said. ”He knew who and where he wanted to be firing at.”
Someone suggested in the comments that there might be a Valentine’s Day connection here. Maybe he was aiming for someone in particular?
Update: 17 victims at the hospital, three of them critical.
Update: The earlier report of one killed has been walked back. Keep hope alive.
Update: Awful. Five dead, says the Tribune.
Update: Six dead now.
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Please ban this idiot!
Ballistic on February 14, 2008 at 8:40 PM
Nichevo, of course it’s a horror, and point taken. I just expect to see lots of calls for gun control starting, well, tonight or tomorrow, and Barry O and his magic Act leading the way.
It’s all about preparation for what’s to come.
I have kids in school, so it kind of goes without saying that it’s gut-wrenching to hear about these things.
funky chicken on February 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM
Please ban this
idiotlunatic!Ballistic on February 14, 2008 at 8:42 PM
Of course the solution is to take away all our guns in the name of safety even though none of us or millions of other law abiding gun ownders had anything to do with this tragedy. Liberal logic at its finest.
Yakko77 on February 14, 2008 at 8:43 PM
out of curiosity is it a gun free zone?
oldernslower on February 14, 2008 at 8:46 PM
Don’t hurt me, Ballistic! Don’t hurt me, please! I’m just saying, we need you for the war on al-Qaeda.
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 8:52 PM
Missed your meds today? Are you one of those folks in need of some redirection as you put it? I am getting that feeling.
USBB on February 14, 2008 at 9:02 PM
Isn’t Illinois a gun free zone itself? That is one of the worst, gansters and cops are only suppoesed to have guns in Illinois. They prefer to keep that oligarchy on security strictly between the two. Being in DC I sympathize for how the people in the hall must have felt, helpless because you follow the law. Call 911 if you survive. At least I have Virginia to fall back on but with the way NOVA is filling up I will probably be in the same boat in the near future.
Now colleges by design aren’t very armed areas, and I don’t think that all students should be armed, some drink more than they can handle at that time. But responsible ones, I would envision many engineering majors should, Responsible ROTC members, I knew a bad one but that goes back to the drinking, and others that don’t drink every weekend. Preferably majors that are logical and grounded in some reality.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Dude.
For those with functioning brains, may I suggest invoking the 48 Hour Rule*?
(* 48 Hour Rule: no intelligent information will be forthcoming for 48 hours, so keep your powder dry.)
Jaibones on February 14, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Update to AP’s Trib update link:
6 dead.
yo on February 14, 2008 at 9:13 PM
Kralizec:
You’ve got the profile all backwards.
This type of killer is the type that Al-Qaeda would recruit. They specialize in this sort of thing. You know, unarmed, unsuspecting people just going about their business…perfect target for Al Qaeda.
The kind of people the US military look for are the type that can bring the fight to the armed and dangerous.
Do you know real violence up close and personal, or are you just a theorist?
Saltysam on February 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM
Neither. Kralizec’s just a Lefty troll. A particularly vile one, at that. He/she must be posting from the Code Pinko parking spot in front of the Berkley Marines Recruitment Center.
wearyman on February 14, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Oh, come on, USBB, have a heart, will you? I’m a writer, not a killer!
But more to the point, do you really want to read one more heartfelt comment as to how awful this tragedy is? This is an awful tragedy. But USBB, I don’t write comments like that, because I’ve got people to do it for me. I’d rather write a heartfelt comment that angry young men are valuable but dangerous, and that some need to have it explained to them that there’s honorable work ahead for them, as long as they don’t go batsh1t crazy and start shooting decent people. This kid may have had real potential as a sniper or a Predator operator, popping people who really need to be popped. Instead, he’s hurt innocent people and wasted his talent, USBB. It’s an awful tragedy.
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 9:28 PM
Gun free zones are really not the big issue, I really don’t think it is enforced to the point that they actually search people. It’s the fact that places like Illinois regulate and restrict firearms to the point that many don’t bother. I guarantee you if they overturn that DC Gun ban they will make getting a gun so invasive and so restricted that you run a better chance of going to jail because it’s not in the trunk or the registered room or whatever, than actually defending yourself and it becomes more a liability depending on the area. They used to keep guns out of newly freed blacks and poor people’s hands by requiring a fee. The laws have evolved but this still exists in principle in some areas.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Terrible! I went to college there my first two years, stayed in Stevenson Hall dorms. It’s a great place, just way in the middle of nowhere…now that I work with grad students, I keep my eye out for the ones who seem a little too tightly strung.
PattyJ on February 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Why not just let anyone over 21 who obtains a concealed-carry permit bring their weapon if they choose? Splitting it up by major doesn’t make sense because then shooters will just target those buildings or classrooms.
If students in fuzzy subjects go through the hassle (and it is a hassle) of getting their firearms license, they’re just as responsible as students in the sciences who do the same. Restrictions on carrying in government buildings, military installations, businesses whose primary purpose is serving and consuming alcohol, and political events I can understand. Schools and churches I don’t… it just turns them into free-fire zones.
Stashiu3 on February 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Any responsible citizen should have the right to carry.
After a few stupid college students drew an arm in any non-life threatening situation were thrown in prison for a few years, the rest would get the picture. And the ones who
act responsibly would always retain the right to engage in life on a level playing field.
This country is in big trouble because reasonable people don’t understand their right to life.
Saltysam on February 14, 2008 at 9:32 PM
I wonder why we didn’t have things like this happen when I was in school.
Connie on February 14, 2008 at 9:39 PM
And enlightened HuffPo commenter gets to the root of the problem:
RightWinged on February 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
I’m not the enemy, Saltysam! I’m on your side. And I’m not the issue! The issues are the issues.
So, as for the murderer, I know the conventional wisdom, that he was unworthy from the beginning, Saltysam. But I doubt he was so devoid of potential. I wish someone had somehow gotten to him early; liberty needs more well-trained, disciplined killers and more uninjured, untraumatized students.
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Stashiu3 on February 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM
I wasn’t prescribing legislation, merely giving a suggestion from my college days which aren’t that far off. The way I see it, the Second Amendment doesn’t really allow me to infringe on the rights of the less responsible, just protect myself from them.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:44 PM
This kind of thing doesn’t happen in Israel. Whenever some Pali nutjob bust into a wedding with guns blazing, he gets drilled from six directions within a few seconds–everybody’s packing heat over there. Israel is the poster country for the proposition that guns don’t kill people, people kill people.
smellthecoffee on February 14, 2008 at 9:45 PM
I hope they never release the shooters name. I have had enough of the MSM making superheroes out of these nothings. Here comes the weeks of the news plastering his face all over the news and reading his manifesto, making the next potential mass murderer peak up with interest at this morons infamy. So annoying.
muyoso on February 14, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Where did I call you the enemy? I made no attack on you.
Anyway,
I agree with you that it would be nice to get to someone like this early on.
But, I completely disagree with you that the actions taken by this predator implies potential as a soldier or marine. That’s absolute nonsense.
Saltysam on February 14, 2008 at 9:46 PM
Sorry, above is a response to:
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Saltysam on February 14, 2008 at 9:47 PM
Now if they are irresponsible in a violent manner or mentally insane that is a different story, but the amount of crimes that do not allow you to own a gun is ridiculous nowadays. There really has to be better prosecutorial discretion in those cases, among many others and changes in legislation in the form of deregulation. If someone is sane and not a violent offender then there is no excuse why they should not be able to defend themselves, trying do defend us from the extreme cases as the politicians “allege” hurt so many innocents and endanger many more.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:52 PM
How many fewer victims would there be if a terrorist like him could be incapacitated before he did so much evil?
I, along with many others, would very much like to be able to carry concealed at my university. As it stands, just waiting to graduate… then off to buy a Colt .45 (M1911).
knob on February 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM
We’re agreeing… I was just trying to plug what I considered a hole in your suggestion. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.
Stashiu3 on February 14, 2008 at 9:54 PM
I wish they covered this like they cover many political scandals, give us a blurb in the news and then it goes down the memory hole. I wish they covered politicians as thoroughly as the describe the plot of these shootings. That way only people with the will to learn will really learn the finer details.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:54 PM
One can trust wearyman, or one can go to Google and search for
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I wasn’t clear on that one.
muyoso,
Do you think they should cover this like they are covering Sibel Edmonds or is that too much?
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 9:58 PM
The count of dead is five.
The so-called sixth is the murderer, and good riddance. The murderer does not count. The murderer is simply vermin, and counts as greatly as a cockroach would. Which is to say not at all.
TABoLK on February 14, 2008 at 10:09 PM
I hate to say it, but I think this is just going to get worse. So many kids just don’t care anymore. For them life and death have become the same. Neither gun free zones or armed security guards can end this madness. God help us indeed.
bojack on February 14, 2008 at 10:11 PM
Check out this comment over at Reddit.
Prayers to the families.
Ugly on February 14, 2008 at 10:22 PM
And I hate to see good killers go to waste.
Kralizec on February 14,2008 at 8:36PM
Kralizec: I assume your directing this comment to
the United States Military,Sniper school maybe!
canopfor on February 14, 2008 at 10:25 PM
I don’t know…I first thought it might be Valentine’s-related…but if this kid was a former student, now attending a local community college…and the first person he killed was the professor…
Maybe he got expelled last year?
And he, well…
JetBoy on February 14, 2008 at 10:29 PM
um i think it is time to bring back God to our schools.
custer on February 14, 2008 at 10:40 PM
The Socialist State of Illinois is a “gun free zone” I doubt that the gunman was concerned about anyone defending themselves, what safer place for him than a college campus in Illinois?
May God Bless the defenseless victms and their loved ones.
Dr Bob on February 14, 2008 at 11:02 PM
Lawmakers and anti-gun rights folks should start explaining right now why they have consistently and systematically resisted giving people a fighting chance against this type of scenario. They should be held accountable for the dis-arming society for their false and disingenious arguments.
Perhaps charges of negligent homocide? Manslaughter? Fraud? ?? The real irony is that you can’t go after these gun free zone dolts in the legislature due to the “no duty” clauses in the state statutes whereby they exempt themselves from liability.
The morons that advocate gun-free zones across the country need to be held accountable for defending “victim disarmament zones”. When the violent offender knows he will not face potential sudden and violent death, these “zones” create nothing but opportunities.
AZ_Redneck on February 14, 2008 at 11:10 PM
Why? So Christopher Hitchen’s can show up and try to kill him?
doriangrey on February 14, 2008 at 11:11 PM
funky chicken, I took a look at the Global Poverty Act and although it is plenty lame, it doesn’t have any gun control language in it. That “light weapons and small arms” language is from the UN Millennium Declaration and was quoted by Kincaid in the National Ledger piece. The guy at thelineishere.org (that you linked to) probably probably didn’t realize the quotes were from two different documents.
For whatever peace of mind that may bring…
Missy on February 14, 2008 at 11:17 PM
Right now, it doesn’t sound like anyone has a clue about what the motive is - I agree with the earlier poster who noted that the shooter, who USED to be a graduate student at NIU, appears to have shot the professor. Perhaps he was expelled or passed over for an important post. We don’t know yet.
On the other hand (and please excuse the impending rant), it WAS Valentine’s Day and, unfortunately, four of five of his victim’s were women.
(rant)
If it turns out that shooting was because this guy had been jilted by some girl, I swear that we have a friggin’ national crisis on our hands: guys who can’t handle when they get rejected by women because they have absolutely no self-esteem or self-respect.
I am so ****ing tired of hearing about guys who go and beat or kill their wives, ex-wives, ex-girlfriends, lovers, etc. when they break up with them. I would say to these people (hopefully before they go on their spree) “Have some self-respect! Get over it! There are a thousand other women out there! Things will get better!”
I am constantly amazed at how some people can completely go insane when their wife or girlfriend says goodbye. It is crazy.
(/rant)
God bless all of those in DeKalb. It is truly a sad day for the Huskies.
furytrader on February 14, 2008 at 11:21 PM
AAARRRRRR!!!!thar she blows!
That great whale Kralizec, a Moby dick!
BL@KBIRD on February 14, 2008 at 11:22 PM
We don’t need to ask God yet, we still have a few tricks up our sleeve before we get really desperate. Bringing gods into the school causes problems because we have to figure out which god we will use and people fight over that. Greek Gods are still permissible, the caricaturing of polytheism that the Greek Gods seem to be is nonissue for some reason unless that has changed, there is still much to learn in there and they are considered art.
The overall decline of society is a result of socialism and the victim mentality that it creates, resentment to an existing inferiority complex. You can see it around you depending on where you live. The title of Hayek’s most famous book wasn’t just a catchy metaphor, we are on “The Road to Serfdom”. We are drifting towards mediocrity in so many categories and they are creating a gradual decline that is picking up momentum. When education declines, so does the quality of politicians, the amount of decency, the quality of news reporting, the respect for life, the validity of the laws, the fairness of competition, and the balance of power. This all plays on the overall satisfaction of life for so many, whether consciously or more likely subconsciously and extreme cases commit violent and vile acts on docile masses, whose docility is a product of what was discussed.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 11:26 PM
Also this shows our deficiency in the market of campus security. They are a service that is purchased by every university and you would think they should be adequate to handle this. You do not need to militarize this. We have plenty of young veterans that are coming back, many with a new respect for the quality of life and good skills for the job, and their have to be entrepreneurs out there that can screen for non PTSD types and provide a non invasive service to meet campus needs.
The school should be liable as well. Banks guard their money, stores take at least some inventory control measures on the whole to guard their product, and universities can take much better measures to guard our students from these types of attacks when they are in their buildings. It’s not like they are not getting enough government money.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 11:38 PM
I’m not sure what you’re asking, canopfor. At any rate, when I say, “I hate to see good killers go to waste,” I mean, without sarcasm, that it seems men who kill easily, as dangerous as they are, have a capacity that, in itself, is valuable to a free society. It seems such emotional states as anger, vengefulness, pitilessness, and remorselessness all have their uses. Crimes such as the one committed today obscure the value of anger, vengefulness, pitilessness, and remorselessness. Yet I have enough self-directed cruelty to be able to make myself say publicly, to good and just people, that it seems anger, vengefulness, pitilessness, and remorselessness are under-valued qualities; that it seems one should attempt to understand those qualities and their uses; and that one should attempt to find the persons who have those qualities and make prudent use of them.
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 11:40 PM
and again no one else was armed and no one fired back. When will the liberals learn. government can not protect you, schools can not protect you. The only thing in this world that will protect you to the upmost of its ability is YOU. Allow students to be armed, quit having are young adults being sitting ducks. What happens if an armed gang of terrorists come to one of our campuses? We need to relearn personal responibility. This is insane. Have gun classes, tech students how to shoot back allow them to carry guns with them. Teach them what to do in a event like this. Liberalism is killing our country one student at a time.
unseen on February 14, 2008 at 11:42 PM
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Security can not be everywhere all the time. Teach them how to protect themselves and allow them the means to do so. One person should NOT be able to kill/shoot 18.
unseen on February 14, 2008 at 11:44 PM
Yes I agree that people should defend themselves, but the fact of this situation is that campus security, which they have, was deficient. Most campus securities are deficient. This isn’t the first time, its been happening in high schools it was only a matter of time before it graduates to college. We had VA Tech before. Pretty soon they will get the message.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 11:50 PM
One could start by giving the professors training at arms. I know; you don’t have to say it. I know.
Kralizec on February 14, 2008 at 11:50 PM
furytrader on February 14, 2008 at 11:21 PM
you sound like a woman. Not sure if you are or not. Just an observation. Men are very different than women. They do not commit easily, however when they do it is a very strong emotion. It is not a matter of “sucking it up and moving on” for some. A long term releationship to the majority of men is a matter of great importance. It involves every aspect of that man’s ego and self. A women does not do this. Add into the fact that a man in this society has no option once the woman decides to end a relationship. In most states in the present day a woman can slap a “protection form abuse” order on the man if he just calls or shows up trying to work things out because the woman does not want to deal with the after effects of a broken relationship, is scared of the reaction, or does not know how to handle the problem. Years of liberalism and involving the government in our personal romantic relationships has lead to this. When a man is heartbroken, has lost his ego, can not see his self any longer and has no option or outlet for the emotions raging within him, some man turn to violence as rage overtakes their rational thoughts. I am not saying this is right. I’m just saying this is reality. The more women try to avoid the “bad parts” of the relationship the more they corner a man into a no win scenrio the more violent these men get.
Men and Women are different, they react different ways to different problems. The major problem in today’s society (that is basised towards women) is that the reactions men have to breakups have become ileagal. How do you make human nature illeagal? the net effect is you have more of the behavior you are trying to do away with. You want to stop this? give men an equal shot at getting custody of the children, give men alimony, make it harder for no fault divorces, give men more control over their children’s lives when they do not have custody, change child support rules to reflect when the woman is living with someone else, give men more freedom to express their anger, sadness, disgust, etc. By outlawing these emotions the only thing you accomplish is to bury these emotions until they burst from deep inside in a killing rage.
unseen on February 15, 2008 at 12:08 AM
Most campus securities are deficient. This isn’t the first time, its been happening in high schools it was only a matter of time before it graduates to college. We had VA Tech before. Pretty soon they will get the message.
LevStrauss on February 14, 2008 at 11:50 PM
there is no way you can be 100% secure unless they lock you in a box and bury it 10 feet underground. There is no way for the police, security, the government to be there 100% of the time. It matters not how much money/effort you put into it a person bent on killing is going to kill. Since there is no way to avoid this the question then becomes not how do we stop it from happening but how do we protect and limit the damage and destruction when it does. That answer is that we arm and teach our selfs and our children how to do this.
Police/security should keep order I agree, they should also protect us to the best of their abilities. It is up to us to protect ourselves when they can not.
I have guns, I have taught my son how to handle guns, just like I taught him to tie his shoes when he was young, how I taught him about money as he grew up, it is just part of becoming an adult learning how to take care and protect yourself.
unseen on February 15, 2008 at 12:17 AM
You know, Ive been an NRA member from time to time and I believe in the concealed carry laws but I’m not persuaded that it would make much difference in this case. The odds of you being caught in a firefight on a college campus are miniscule. Even given a concealed carry law and rules allowing students to carry guns, why would anyone carry one? Colllege campuses just aren’t that dangerous. If I thought I needed a gun for self protection in a geology class, I’d drop the class.
This attack sounds so fast and furious, I doubt any kid would have the presence of mind to draw a gun out of his backpack before it was all over in time to intervene effectively.
The only good thing lifting a gun ban on campus would do would be to present a general threat which could deter armed criminals. As it is now, posting a “Gun Free Zone” sign in front of a school is like saying to criminals that this is a game preserve just for them where all their targets have been disarmed for their protection. It’s as if the schools were working to make safer working conditions for criminals on campus.
Pro-gun as I am, I don’t know that I would have wanted my dorm-mates in college to have guns close by because a lot of them were idiots. These were guys who drank peppermint Schnapps and upchucked it in the restroom, swirlied each other, walked into parties stoned and naked, rapelled out the seventh floor of the dorms, etc. I wouldn’t trust them alone with a pizza let alone a gun.
Tantor on February 15, 2008 at 12:23 AM
Psychobabble. There’s no excuse for this and to blame society is what liberals do. If you really believe all that, get help. A healthy ego does not lash out in a “killing rage” from being dumped.
Stashiu3 on February 15, 2008 at 12:26 AM
Pro-gun as I am, I don’t know that I would have wanted my dorm-mates in college to have guns close by because a lot of them were idiots. These were guys who drank peppermint Schnapps and upchucked it in the restroom, swirlied each other, walked into parties stoned and naked, rapelled out the seventh floor of the dorms, etc. I wouldn’t trust them alone with a pizza let alone a gun.
Tantor on February 15, 2008 at 12:23 AM
well freedom is not neat and tidy at times. I know alot of people that I wouldn’t trust with a knife let alone a gun. but they have a right just like I do to be armed. It might make life a little bit more unsettling at times but freedom’s basic tenent is to trust the individual. So if you believe in freedom and in the founding documents then you must accept the good with the bad. All individuals are not saints nor are they reponsibile but they all have the same basic rights. Liberalism says they know better than you do. That they will decide who gets to protect themselves and who doesn’t. That it is their judgement that is important not yours. I will take freedom with all its warts and freckles any day to the heavy hand of know it all governments.
unseen on February 15, 2008 at 12:31 AM
I carry everywhere I am legally allowed to even though I’ve never had to use it, or even tempted to reach for it. I’m pretty sure that if the shooter had time to reload, there was plenty of time for someone to return fire even if they were caught completely off guard at first.
Stashiu3 on February 15, 2008 at 12:32 AM
Psychobabble. There’s no excuse for this and to blame society is what liberals do. If you really believe all that, get help. A healthy ego does not lash out in a “killing rage” from being dumped.
Stashiu3 on February 15, 2008 at 12:26 AM
You werent paying attention. We are not talking about a healthy ego. If they had healthy egos they would not be lashing out in a killing rage. the healthy ego was destroyed in the breakup. egos are fragile at times. You call it psychobabble, I call it reality. look at the news, read the headlines, study the “progress of society” thru out the last 50 years and track the amount of killings, abuse etc against that “progressive society” society has a huge effect on the psychie of an individual. you think people think the same in a free society and a closed society or a progressive society and a religious society?
And telling someone that you do not agree with to get help is a sure way to show you are closed minded. study history, study different cultures, read and try to understand what is going on under the radar. you think honor killings just happen for the hell of it?
unseen on February 15, 2008 at 12:41 AM
I’ve studied history and different cultures. I’ve also studied Mental Health and worked in the field for over 15 years. Healthy egos are not “destroyed” from getting dumped. A healthy ego will be hurt, angry, confused… all the things you are describing. What it won’t do is snap because someone broke up with them. If they do, they didn’t have a healthy ego in the first place.
Society isn’t perfect. Blaming society for murder is excusing murder. “It wasn’t his fault because society is so horrible!!” Wrong answer. I meant what I said… if you believe all that stuff, get help. If you’re so stressed about society’s faults that it seems reasonable for someone to murder innocents, you’ve got problems.
It’s not just that I don’t agree with you. You’re wrong. Absolutely, positively wrong. There is no excusing this. Comparing it to honor killings is wrong as well. The root causes are completely different. Besides, we’re not talking about honor killings, are we? We’re talking about these murders and how they might have been prevented or the damage minimized by students having the ability to protect themselves.
Stashiu3 on February 15, 2008 at 1:03 AM
A special place in hell for that pathetic murderer. A place reserved for weak, impotent, small spirited men who kill defenseless and innocent people.
I hope he suffers.
Montana on February 15, 2008 at 1:20 AM
So tragic…..how long do you suppose it will be before the gun-grabbing liberals and Sarah Brady are using this as a rallying call. Gun free zones work, alright - for idiot psychopaths like this to get high body counts….disgusting.
Livefreeordie on February 15, 2008 at 1:42 AM
Here in Oregon we can carry anywhere except secure areas of airports and courthouses. We’re allowed to carry at all public schools, colleges and universities because they’re funded with taxpayer money. Private schools and businesses can choose not to allow guns but even if you do carry anyway, and they find out, the most they can do is ask you to leave. If you don’t leave then they can charge you with trespassing, that’s all.
Afterimage on February 15, 2008 at 1:55 AM
I think were seeing good skin go to waste here with this commenter…
Tragedy. There’s too much of this going on…
DMeNTe on February 15, 2008 at 2:24 AM
NIU is reporting that 22 people were shot, 6 fatalities. 4 women, 2 men (one of whom was the gunman who committed suicide).
The gunman, age 27, is a former NIU graduate student who transferred to U of Ill in 2007. As of 10pm, he was not publicly identified (though they do know who he is), nor have any of the other fatalities.
The campus is closed until further notice. Most students have left. We will be picking up my daughter early this morning. She’s an RA and is on duty until Friday morning.
(BTW, she is alright and was at the other end of the campus when it went down).
Some facts about IL’s gun laws.
1. Guns can be possessed by anyone who has a state issued Firearms Owners ID card. You must be 21 to be able to purchase a handgun, 18 for a long gun. Illinois, the state, is not a “gun free zone.” Chicago’s gun registration ordinance is very similar to DC’s and prohibits the possession of handguns, though long guns can be registered. In addition to Chicago, certain suburbs (Morton Grove, Evanston, Wilmette, Oak Park, and a few others) prohibit the ownership of handguns. These locales ARE “gun free zones,” for all intents and purposes.
2. Concealed carry of firearms is prohibited state wide, making Illinois one of only 2 states that refuse to allow law abiding citizens to carry (Wisconsin is the other). In that sense, Illinois, the state, is a “victim disarmament zone.”
3. Northern Illinois University bans the personal possession of firearms by students and non-law enforcement employees. No exceptions. That makes NIU a “gun free zone.”
John Lott’s studies show that mass murders occur predominately in “gun free zones.” or “victim disarmament zones.” This is certainly true in this case.
Illinois has had, in the last 2 weeks, 2 mass murders where the unarmed victims were shot. One was at a Lane Bryant department store in Tinley Park, IL, where 6 women were shot execution style - 5 fatally. The other was at NIU on Thursday.
4 weeks ago, a store owner in Crystal Lake, IL, foiled a robbery by using his own firearm. It is alleged he fired his firearm outside his store (if true, this would be a misdemeanor), but because his store was within 1000 feet of a grade school, he was charged with felony aggravated firearm discharge. His case has not yet been heard.
The Illinois legislature is controlled by Democrats and the Chicago Democrats are very hostile towards guns and gun owners. The governor, Rod Blagojevich (also a Chicago Democrat) is a hard-core gun grabber. Illinois’ two US senators, Obama, and Durbin, are shrill opponents of the Second Amendment. Both do the bidding of Chicago Mayor Richard M. Daley, an extreme anti-gun Democrat. Look for him to demand banning of guns in Illinois. Look for Obama, Durbin and Blagojevich to join him. Look for the Chicago-run state legislature to introduce and possibly pass gun bans and other draconian gun control measures.
On the bright side, Crystal Lake, mentioned above, is in McHenry County. The McHenry County board is supposed to vote on a resolution (to be sent to Springfield, the state capitol) that upholds the Second Amendment and opposes further gun control laws. If passed (and as of Wednesday, all the board members except perhaps 1 were in favor of it), McHenry County would be the 66th Illinois county (out of 102) to approve this resolution. It will also be the first “collar” county of Chicago to buck the anti-gun machine run from Chicago. This would be a good thing if they pass it, BTW.
Concerning this incident, as pieced together by eyewitness reports (some of which other posters have noted).
The shooting was concluded in a very short period of time, apparently the elapsed time was on the order of one or two minutes at most. A number of students were able to dial 911 and the first campus police vehicle arrived in less than one minute. By that time, the shooting was over and the gunman had committed suicide.
A poster above hypothesized that even if legal concealed carry were allowed, that it might not have done any good, given the size of the campus, the number of enrolled students, and the speed of the engagement. The poster is possibly right. But we will never know because no student or instructor was permitted to be armed in the “gun free” and “victim disarmament zone” that is the campus of Northern Illinois University in the state of Illinois. As a result, the victims never had a chance.
These killings in “gun free zones” (churches, shopping centers, college campuses) will go on because the killers know that their victims CANNOT RESIST the slaughter, because the state (or the mall owner) has disarmed them.
These incidents won’t stop until the victims are allowed to shoot back.
My prayers go to my daughter’s class mates and their families.
And as soon as the real estate market recovers (and my 2 remaining kids in college graduate), we will be leaving Illinois for a state that allows concealed carry. The decision to leave was made well over a year ago, but the incidents of the last month listed above have confirmed that it is the correct one.
[Back to lurking, now]
georgej on February 15, 2008 at 3:28 AM
Most sorry to disappoint, but the U.S. Army would not have wanted the guy anyway, if that’s what you had in mind.
Marines? Maybe, but pretty darn unlikely.
Now that he is gone, maybe you could go in his place?
MB4 on February 15, 2008 at 3:39 AM
And not even a very original one. I have been watching the 1st Season of Dexter on CD and Kralizec’s suggestion of channeling the aggression is almost word for word from the
He needs to quit watching so much TV.
This shooting is a tragedy, as they all are.
My heart goes out to the families of the victims. The time for pop psychology will be next week, after the funerals. The MSM might not even wait until then though.
schmuck281 on February 15, 2008 at 4:09 AM
almost word for work from the Dexter character’s foster father.
A line got dropped somehow.
schmuck281 on February 15, 2008 at 4:10 AM
I read that students said he was wearing something red like a scarf. Anyone else read this?? I read it on some local news site, redirected from drudge, I think.
JellyToast on February 15, 2008 at 7:25 AM
Unseen - I appreciate your comments. And to answer your question, no, I am a man who has witnessed firsthand and with friends how screwed up relationships with women can become.
No matter how bad it has gotten (and believe me, I’ve seen some real horror stories), this is no excuse for killing innocent sons, daughters, husbands and wives, because someone feels bad about their own situation.
My argument is not that society has it in for men, it’s that some men (and some women) have such a poor sense of self that they cannot imagine existing without their significant other. When that significant other leaves (and this could be a reason WHY they leave), they take it as a threat to their very existence and behave as if the world has, literally, ended, when in truth any rational, sane person knows that it’s not.
Couples break up everyday and most men, with a healthy sense of self, learn to acknowledge the loss, regroup and move on. To me, it’s tragic that innocent people have to suffer (not only the victims, but their families, etc.) due to the emotional immaturity of others.
(I realize that this all may sound like psychobabble and we still don’t know the motivation behind this particular shooting. The point I am trying to make here really struck home with me last year when that young cop in Delavan, Wisconsin killed a house full of people because of a jilted girlfriend.)
furytrader on February 15, 2008 at 7:43 AM
Like I said earlier, these are the types Al Qaeda nurtures. Saddam Hussein did it. Stalin was a master at this too.
Every person has your so-called “under-valued” qualities to varying degrees. So, your missing key components to your theories.
To indiscriminately execute the unarmed, nonthreatening, and unsuspecting is the act of a murderous psychopath.
To follow your logic, a sound military is “prudent use” of murderous psychopaths. If that’s your position, then I suspect your maturity, and if you are a teenager, forgive your attempts to try to make sense.
If you are actually a mature adult, and you are taking yourself seriously, I think you should try getting some sunlight.
Saltysam on February 15, 2008 at 8:41 AM
Thank god this school was a gun free zone…
first off… if the guy reloaded, there was time to shoot back… and maybe even maneuver for a clearer shot. 2: I don’t know anyonewho carries who carries their handgun in a place where you would have to “dig it out”. That defeats the purpose.
3: noone has ever proposed allowing guns in dorms. Just that a teacher or student (who lives off campus) who has a legal CCW permit, be allowed to carry on campus. but I guess the entire state is anti-CCW. Lotsa good that is doing for them…
BadBrad on February 15, 2008 at 8:51 AM
Bad Brad:
Why shouldn’t anyone propose that a student with a legal CCW carry in a dorm?
I don’t get it.
Saltysam on February 15, 2008 at 9:04 AM
When I graduated high school several decades ago,
I had a part time job at a state mental hospital. There were 1200-1500 patients. Now at same hospital there are only 200-300. Where are the rest?
On the street.
Farmer62 on February 15, 2008 at 9:18 AM
“Police were on the scene within a few minutes …” How often have we read that line after a shooting? Do you understand how many shots can be fired “within a few minutes”? Unless law enforcement were actually there in the classroom when this happened there is absolutely nothing - I repeat nothing - that law enforcement could do except stretch out that yellow tape after everyone is dead. Law enforcement, in this situation, is reactive, not proactive. Law enforcement clean up the scene and discover clues, not prevent the shooting from happening.
Illinois does not allow the carrying of loaded, concealed weapons in the state. Despite repeated efforts by the gun lobby to legalize concealed carrying of guns, the fear mongers has been instrumental working with Illinois residents to prohibit the carrying of loaded, hidden handguns in public. What the fear mongers forgot to tell the Illinois legislators is that criminals don’t obey the laws, leaving all the law-abiding student unarmed and easy prey. If a concealed carry law could save the life of just one innocent student it would be worthwhile.
Illinois state law requires Illinois residents to obtain a Firearm Owner Identification card (called the FOID card) to purchase or possess firearms. The FOID card system is under the purview of the Illinois State Police. A criminal background check is run on all FOID card applicants, and if the background check is passed, a FOID card will be issued within 30 days. Did this ID card or criminal background check apply to the shooter? Does anyone believe that failing or not applying for any criminal background check deterred the shooter in any way in possessing a firearm?
The Illinois Council Against Handgun Violence has recommended that the Illinois General Assembly make immediate and sweeping reforms to the state’s gun laws. Can someone tell me what law would have prevented this shedding of innocent blood?
Illinois state law requires a 72-hour waiting period for all handgun sales and a 24-hour waiting period on all long gun sales. Did either of these laws do anything at all to stop this shooting?
Under state statute, no guns are allowed inside schools or on school grounds, unless carried by on-duty law enforcement personnel (who apparently were nowhere around). But did the shooter obey these state statutes? Did the state statutes against having a gun at school deter in any way the shooter from killing innocent people? From what we’ve seen the only people that actually obeyed the state statutes are the ones that are dead.
What gun-control advocates fail to grasp is criminals, by definition, do not follow the law and therefore any attempt to keep them from carrying a gun into a given establishment will fail, often with tragic results.
(stepping off soapbox now)
shamalama on February 15, 2008 at 9:32 AM
But it’s so much more humane, don’t you think? Er, no.
funky chicken on February 15, 2008 at 9:38 AM
I would have to agree.
If you want to be an idiot please do not try to come around and lower the collective IQ of this blog.
There are some fairly intelligent people here and your thinly veiled attempts at trying to incite the “right-wing radicals” by implying that somehow murdering lunatics are excellent candidates for military service is inanely foolish. You should think before you speak.
regal on February 15, 2008 at 9:46 AM
Law cannot prevent. Law can only punish.
And what punishment is there when someone is determined to die?
There is no law, in any shape or form, that can ever prevent this kind of thing. Even making all guns illegal won’t stop it — how many guns did McVeigh need?
TABoLK on February 15, 2008 at 9:47 AM
One things’s for sure–my two boys will be attending a college where concealed carry is permitted. My alma mater, the University of Utah, allows concealed carry, but it took a lot of work to change the laws (and Utah is a pretty gun-friendly state!). In order to effect change parents, students, and alumni need to pressure schools and their state governments to allow their students and teachers to protect themselves and to increase their on-campus security. I’m sick of our children being sitting ducks for homicidal creeps because liberals think guns are icky.
drflykilla on February 15, 2008 at 9:56 AM
7
Jimmy the Dhimmi on February 15, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Nope. The shooters here are reacting in horror at the thought of facing a twelve gauge completely unarmed … as well they should.
Your comment about the media spectacle, unlike the rest of your comment, is completely spot on.
In a sane society, we would not ever see the shooter’s face or be told his name, and his body should be cremated and the ashes flushed down the Coroner’s Office toilet.
No fame for him. Period.
Kristopher on February 15, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Spot on.
I know this is burried in comments now but I hope AP and Bryan take note. Please, please, please do not post this man’s photo or his manifesto or whatever.
12thman on February 15, 2008 at 10:45 AM
Kralizec,
I think the military wants more than just stone cold killers.
bojack on February 15, 2008 at 10:48 AM
The now identified shooter was a flaming Lib who was an ‘expert’ in “parasuicides“:
Buy Danish on February 15, 2008 at 10:56 AM
NIU is holding a news conference at 9:30 CST.
Shooter had 3 pistols and one shotgun. Former NIU student, current UI Champaign pupil. Friends at UI state he went off medication a few weeks ago and had become “erratic”.
southsideironworks on February 15, 2008 at 10:57 AM
Shooters name: Steve Kazmierczak
more
RushBaby on February 15, 2008 at 10:59 AM
How many more school and university students and faculty will have to suffer the consequences of blood thirsty evil people? I will pray for peace for these families and God’s shoulder to cry on. But something has to be done - it is getting out of control. Do the schools have to start putting up security check points before entering the campus? Why not? Perhaps it is about time. If I were a student, I would start taking my classes online. Screw these campuses that do not take any action to protect the students.
txstar on February 15, 2008 at 11:00 AM
They claim to be taking plenty of action to protect the students. In truth, the only actions they are effectively taking are those that endanger the students.
“Gun Free Zones” are a direct violation of the 2nd Amendment. No government body, agency or employee has the authority to impose such law/policy. Debate over the merits of such zones is pointless, as the entire basis for creating them is illegitimate and unconstitutional. Period. It all needs to stop, and the vulgar fascists that dare to believe they have the authority to dictate others’ liberties need to be publicly repudiated and fired.
LimeyGeek on February 15, 2008 at 11:12 AM
I agree. I don’t claim to be one of the bright ones myself, but Kralizec could probably learn something from Paul Miller.
Or possibly Mark Twain.
High Desert Wanderer on February 15, 2008 at 11:15 AM
Does anyone know if this guy is linked to the threats made in December?
Scanning the blog … I haven’t seen anything.
upinak on February 15, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Dang, what happened to my link.
Meet John Lindsay, the anti-conservative.
Buy Danish on February 15, 2008 at 11:45 AM
I’m sure there’s going to be a ton of phony Steve Kazmierczak info posted on the web, so here’s the early Google poop. He was the vice president of the NIU Academic Criminal Justice Association (a student association). A tiny bio reads:
There’s also this academic citation for him:
Thomas, Jim, Margaret Leaf, Steve Kazmierczak, and Josh Stone. 2006. “Self-Injury in Correctional Settings: ‘Pathology’ of Prisons or of Prisoners?” Criminology and Public Policy 5(1):193-202.
Mike Antonucci on February 15, 2008 at 12:28 PM
http://dclies.blogspot.com/2008/02/steve-kazmierczak.html
Hiney Von Pewps on February 15, 2008 at 12:43 PM
If any school did what was needed to truly protect its students, there would be a massive outcry. Curfews, walls around the school with access points (monitored by armed guards and vehicle searches with dogs), metal detectors, drug testing and ramdom searches (the list could go on and on). Tuition would go out the roof!! Also, the liberals on college campuses would go nuts. This is typical of an open society. The real question is: how many rights are you willing to give up to feel secure?
Claimsratt on February 15, 2008 at 12:47 PM
Are school exempt from liability if a gun is used in a classroom??
Claimsratt on February 15, 2008 at 12:53 PM
Tuition is already out and in the pin pricks of space.
Do you really think this will not happen?
You have people who are mentally ill, taking meds for whatever reason in school, and there is a claus that says the Doc’s and Nurses are not allowed to speak about it due to confidentiality.
Have you noticed lately, it is the people who are on the drugs for mental illness, who happen to be doing these things?
So what now? Do we 1. start breaching the confidential claus to keep all manners of ones self private? 2. Make the Parents and Student take large insurance policies out for college “rampages”, due to someone else emotional and mental issues?
And since there are those who just do not do well in society, and have emotional crisis’s constantly, what do we do about these people? These people who can’t cope… and I know a lot of them.
To many variables. But make no arguement about tuition… it is going to go up whether or not something like this happens. Will you be able to afford it and actually keep up with it and the payments is the other thing.
God help the Parents of the Students who have died.
upinak on February 15, 2008 at 12:59 PM
Like I said, “what are you willing to give up to feel secure?”
Claimsratt on February 15, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Claim I am not giving up anything. I may not be able to take a gun everywhere.. but that doesn’t mean I don’t have a taser.
What are you thinking about giving up? Because unlike the rest of the world, I don’t feel like giving in.
upinak on February 15, 2008 at 1:12 PM
We need more gun laws that would ban people from doing this! Umm…oh yea…these cowards don’t follow the law! What we need is for the American people to wake up and arm themselves and quit being victims! Then these cowards will slink off and just kill themselves without taking others with them!
sabbott on February 15, 2008 at 1:32 PM
Something we might all keep in mind is the pattern these things all demonstrate. The weaponry isn’t probably as much an issue as is the outcome. All these events end in suicide by the perp or suicide by cop. The same thing, mass slaughter ending in suicide, is not something that is most efficiently done with firearms. These things are the Americanized version of suicide bombers, and once the unbalanced crazies catch on that explosives or toxic gases will accomplish the same thing in higher volume, there will be escalation. A guy with a vest can’t be stopped. Happens too fast once he’s inside the killing ground.
a capella on February 15, 2008 at 1:34 PM
I don’t know if there is anything specific about liability in the law, but I’m sure that any lawyer could find something to sue the school about if it happened.
Here’s an article about the law:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18355953/
drflykilla on February 15, 2008 at 1:44 PM
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