You have a lot of chutzpah to “bear false witness” on something you obviously know nothing about, yet tell ME what I believe, repeatedly.

SkinnerVic on February 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Mormons are tricky and deceptive. Instead of honestly and openly telling people what Mormons believe (like Jesus is Satan’s brother) people like Skinner point out what they think are flaws in our soul, and how such bad we Christians are for rebuking the cult of Joey Smith and his magic rock. Mormons have to continually hide the dark side of their religion from the naive public. You’ve proven that in our debate Skinner by time and time again dancing around what Mormons really believe and not just coming out just telling us. You try to intertwining Mormonism with Christianity in some sick twisted infatuation in an attempt to get everyone thinking you’re Christians when that couldn’t be further from the truth. Mormons are NOT Christians.

I can tell you’re not listening, nor interested in having an intellectually honest dialog, and you’re attempts at “converting” me and showing me “Christian Love” are the type that’ll put anyone straight into intensive care. Good luck with converting that way…

It’s the doctrine found in any and all of the various books and official communications from the LDS Church that I find blasphemous (at the very least). What is done to my Lord by the Mormon doctrine goes well beyond a different interpretation. It’s sickening. It angers me greatly. The entire character of God is changed by the LDS Church (He is just one of many gods, but he is only special because he is our god), along with the changing of the divinity of Christ, and a twisted idea the Bible. And to make matters worse, good Mormon folks have no clue why Christians are genuinely shocked by any of this. Look at skinner, he genuinely believes it’s a personal attack to question their Mormon beliefs as a cult – and if I didn’t read the LDS Church doctrine either, I might honestly feel the same way. Folks, it’s doctrinal, not personal.

I wanted to ask you why African men weren’t allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978? I also wanted to know if Mormons believe that people with dark skin are cursed?

With that post out of the way to tie a bow on a couple points, I bid you adieu as I warned you about getting contentious and saucy with me!

SkinnerVic on February 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Fine by me. I’m glad I won’t be wasting my time on you anymore. I tried to help, but you just won’t listen. Funny though, you decide to take off just when I bring up Mormon history and the racial statements in LDS scriptures. I wanted to ask you why African men weren’t allowed to hold the priesthood until 1978? I also wanted to know if Mormons believe that people with dark sv

Galatians 1:6-9 has to do with a specific doctrinal problem confronting the early Christians. To apply this scripture to any other doctrine with which detractors disagree is to wrest the scriptures.

SkinnerVic on February 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Thanks for proving my point once more. Mormons have to change what the Bible says because it conflicts with their beliefs. Let’s break it down Galatians 1:6-9, and show you where you’re wrong Skinner. Here’s the biblical passage (it’s split up with commentary between each verse):

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:” Galatians 1:6

Verse 1:6 another gospel – The word “another” in this verse is heteros, meaning “another of a different kind.” That is, any gospel that is not centered on “the grace of Christ” is an alternative gospel, it is a false gospel–no gospel at all.

Next verse:

“Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Galatians 1:7

Verse 1:7 not another – In verse 7, on the other hand, the word for “another” is allos, which means “another of the same kind.” Galatians 1:6-7 stresses that the so-called gospel that was misleading the Galatians was not really one with just minor variations from the true gospel, but was altogether opposite to it, a false gospel. Thus, it is very appropriate to apply this Scripture to other doctrine!

The last part of the passage:

Verse 1:8-9 – “But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL UNTO YOU than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8-9

The book of Galatians clearly warns us about any man or angel bringing another gospel, while claiming that it is the same gospel. This is precisely what Joey Smith did when he wrote the Book of Mormon. The angel called Moroni in Mormonism allegedly gave the golden plates to Joseph Smith who was to translate them into English. This was supposed to be the “restoration” of the gospel, which assumes that the gospel needs to be restored. We are warned about false prophets like Smith and demonic angels like Moroni. How much clearer does God need to make it other than what is in Galatians? Think about it man, are you blind!!!!

But, as I wrote before, there are other clear warnings in the Bible about false prophets that you clearly ignore Skinner.

“But there were false prophets (ie, Joseph Smith) also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies (Mormonism), even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” 2 Peter 2:1

All throughout Scripture, the Lord unequivecally condemns consultations with spirit mediums, fortunetellers, astrologoers, witches, and all other occult sources of supposed knowledge and guidance. For you to ignore God’s warnings just to follow a blaspheming, plagiarizing, lying, heretic with a magic rock and a hat, is… is…. it’s just mind-boggling.

First, it wouldn’t matter what mechanism he (Joseph Smith) translated the Book Of Mormon to you – you don’t believe he was divinely inspired anyway! SkinnerVic on February 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Of course I don’t. Are you nuts! Joseph Smith was a lying cheating sod with a magic stone and and some golden plates and some books he wrote for Satan. What if Joe went on Larry King Live tonight and said that by placing a rock into a hat, and with his face in the hat, he got messages from God he needed to write the sequel to the Bible. What’s wrong with you man! you’re placing your faith into a liar! I suspect that the magic rocks aren’t often mentioned in LDS conversation because they make Joseph Smith seem peculiar (in a bad way) and reinforce the fact that Joseph was heavily involved in folk magic practices. Click here (scroll down page) to learn about the 1826 court trial held in Brainbridge, New York where Joseph Smith was arrested, tried, and found guilty of using a magical stone for the purpose of finding hidden treasure buried in the earth.

The history surrounding it you can’t even get right as I can’t find any source where Emma was ever quoted about the stone/hat – that’s David Whitmer. If you’re going to slur my beliefs, get it straight!

The history surrounding it? Joey dropped a magic rock into his hat, then buried his face in the hat and proceeded to dictate the Book of Mormon. That’s really REally REALLY strange man. Show me one picture where the Mormon church has published Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon like that. They hide it. Here’s your Emma source: (History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols. (Independence, Missouri: Herald House, 1951), “Last Testimony of Sister Emma,” 3:356.)

“We (Mormons) believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

Yes, I know that. You’re heretics. No Christian would EVER say what you just said. Mormon Article of Faith #8: “We Believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” Why do you only add the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” to describe the Bible and not after the book of Mormon when in fact there are far more translating errors in the Book of Mormon than the Bible?

LDS claims of divinely inspired translation of the Book Of Mormon – that means it’s from God (not man).

The book of Mormon is from Satan, not from God. But, another point I want to bring out, when we look at David Whitmer’s explanation of how it was translated, where he says, “and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” If that’s really how it happened, why do we have so many editions of the Book of Mormon with corrections made to it? There’s no margin for error if that’s really how it happened. Remember, it would not go on to the next set of characters until it was read back correctly. So why does the Mormon church feel it necessary to make corrections to this book, that was supposedly translated by the gift and power of God?

Just posting a scripture expecting that everyone has your (correct) interpretation reeks of arrogance.

SkinnerVic on February 12, 2008 at 12:38 PM

I am only forwarding what the Bible says. It’s not my interpretation. I don’t change God’s Word like Mormons do. Of course, I expect this kind of response from you though. Mormons MUST make the Bible say something other than it does, otherwise they are exposed as heretics. Thing is, the requirements for being a Christian is that he/she believes and accepts the whole teaching of the Bible. A Christian cannot just ignore part of the Scripture and still claim to be a Christian.

I read your link, and I can understand why people fight with such knee-jerk reaction about it when it disrupts their sense about the Bible (KJV) being the “infallible Word of God”.

See. There ya go again denying the Bible is the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God. You prove my point again. A Mormon MUST attack the Word of God in order to defend his beliefs. Why? Because Mormonism and the Bible contradict each other. God is unchangeable. God’s Word is unchangeable too. In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” Psalms 12:6-7 says, “The words of the LORD are PURE words… Thou shalt KEEP them, O LORD, thou shalt PRESERVE them from this generation for ever.” This is a whole nother debate, “which Bible is the correct version”, but when Mormons say the Bible has “errors” they are essentially calling God a liar when the Bible says, “it was impossible for God to lie” (Heb 6:18). Jesus Christ, in the parable of the sower and the seed, said, “The SEED is the word of God… then cometh THE DEVIL, and TAKETH AWAY the word…”.

Look what we find at the LDS website:

The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph Smith to RESTORE TRUTHS to the Bible text that had become LOST OR CHANGED since the original words were written. THESE RESTORED TRUTHS CLARIFIED DOCTRINE AND IMPROVED SCRIPTURAL UNDERSTANDING.

Also this:

The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel. Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

The Mormon Church was founded by a con man named Joseph Smith who stole from the Bible.

You have a lot of chutzpah to “bear false witness” on something you obviously know nothing about, yet tell ME what I believe, repeatedly. I can tell you’re not listening, nor interested in having an intellectually honest dialog, and you’re attempts at “converting” me and showing me “Christian Love” are the type that’ll put anyone straight into intensive care. Good luck with converting that way…

That said, I’m suggesting an article that exemplifies our discussion here, a parody if you will. It’s a must read and the irony is delish.
Cya.

If you want to disagree with me fine, but don’t call me a liar when I’m providing legitimate evidence for my argument.

I don’t consider proof by assertion as proof. Secondly, just posting a scripture expecting that everyone has your(correct) interpretation reeks of arrogance.

See, you make my point for me Skinner about Mormons beliefs about the Holy Bible. Mormons claim the Bible (and I’m referring to the 1611 King James version, not these modern day watered down versions) has errors. You believe 1 John 5:7 shouldn’t be in the Bible. Thus, the Bible is corrupt. That’s blasphemous to Christians. You wrote, “This intrusive text ended up in the King James Bible.” First of all, I don’t agree with the Mormon claim, this passage is called the Johannine Comma and is a wonderful testimony to the Heavenly Trinity.

OK, who’s spinning now. Let’s formalize what you said above into points:

1) Mormons claim the Bible has errors. You believe 1 John 5:7 shouldn’t be in the Bible.

I do think it’s questionable as do many others as I posted in my 2:27PM post, which you poo-pooed as being a Mormon bias. How about this guy? – he’s not LDS and comes to the same conclusion. I read your link, and I can understand why people fight with such knee-jerk reaction about it when it disrupts their sense about the Bible (KJV) being the “infallible Word of God”.

2) Thus, the Bible is corrupt.

That is both cataclysmic and intellectually dishonest to assert that’s my position when I have said nothing of the sort. You later used this to springboard into an anti-Mormon rant (see #5).

3) That’s blasphemous (sp) to Christians.

Now you’re spinning that I’ve insulted someone (when I haven’t).

4) Obviously, this verse carries the clearest and most explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity to be found in the Bible.

Must not be that obvious to the many sources that refute your assertion with empirical study of the texts.

5) Look, Joseph Smith and the Mormons have to attack the Bible and come up with this lie such as this, otherwise Smith’s fantastical ideas and “new religion” would be exposed as fraudulent because it doesn’t line up with the Bible, but, I mean, you don’t see that… Skinner, Joe HAS TO say the Bible is corrupt or he’s a conman and a fraud. We can debate 1 John 5:7 a little later, but I can assure you it is not an error.

I appreciate you trying to “assure” me, but the premise for your current logical argument is flawed given you’ve based your whole conclusion on a false premise of 2) above (of which I didn’t even say – you did). People (not just Mormons) call that a logical fallacy.

some rant about seer stones, dictation after a pre-mature mulligan call.

First, it wouldn’t matter what mechanism he translated the Book Of Mormon to you – you don’t believe he was divinely inspired anyway! The history surrounding it you can’t even get right as I can’t find any source where Emma was ever quoted about the stone/hat – that’s David Whitmer. If you’re going to slur my beliefs, get it straight!

And Smith clearly violates Galatians 1:6-9 by writing the Book of Mormon.

Once again, you keeping bringing this passage up not knowing what it means. First, let’s replay the Eight Article of Faith for you…

“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

1) Nowhere do you see us stating that we believe the Book Of Mormon to be the word of man. This is an important point, because your being disingenuous like it’s some fantasy of Smith. Later in Gal 1:11, Paul talks about the gospel he’s preaching is not of man. LDS claims of divinely inspired translation of the Book Of Mormon – that means it’s from God (not man). Ergo, it’s consistent on that point. An even better way to see if it’s the same Gospel is a look at the underlying beliefs, laws and ordinances to see how well they actually do align with the Church of Paul’s day.

2) I think I will quote scholar Stephen Gibson, where he discusses the problem that Paul was actually having (not the perversion you’re alluding to):

Paul was writing to the Galatians to warn them about what he perceived as a growing problem within the Church itself. People had entered his flock, attempting to mislead it by preaching another gospel, a perverted one, different from the one that Paul himself had preached to these Gentiles who had just joined the Church.

Galatians 1:6-9 has to do with a specific doctrinal problem confronting the early Christians. To apply this scripture to any other doctrine with which detractors disagree is to wrest the scriptures.

FWIW: F.F. Bruce isn’t LDS either – he’s Evangelical.

As for your contention from Revelation that we’re adding to Bible, you seriously need to read this.
He was clearly referring to his book, the Book of Revelation – as there WAS NO BIBLE (as you have it exists like the KJV) in mid first century – it was a collection of Canon and Apocrypha. I’m going to pull a statement you made earlier to make a point about this (@6:06PM):

“For almost two millennia Christians used the King James Bible for virtually all gospel preaching. It was the universal standard for Bible believing Christians of the world.”

Once again, a patently false statement as it’s pretty hard to “preach” something for 2000 years with a translation that’s been, by your own admission later dating the KJV at 1611 (which is correct). Most of the KJV translation (~80%) came directly from William Tyndale, and we know what fate he received for that…
That said the KJV, even with it’s faults, is what the LDS used for their Bible as it’s the most widely-published text in the English language. But to call it “the universal standard” for everyone Christian, when other faiths clearly use a variety of Apocrypha and Canon in addition to common Canon, is a real insult to Orthodox Christians, Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons alike since each has their own take, none of which diminish or alter the Book of Revelation.

Phew.

Aw shucks, you know we were trying to keep this secret in public view. /sarc(asm)

You’re being a little disingeneuos. How many people know Joseph Smith put a rock into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face, and then wrote the Book of Mormon that way? Are you kidding me. Hardly anybody knows that! Your answer just reinforces the idea that Mormons are tricky and deceptive. The Mormon Church have published many pictures of Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon. They show Smith seated at a table looking at down at the gold plates examing them carefully and translating what he saw to write the Book of Mormon. But, this scenario does not square with the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses to Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon. They include Joseph Smith’s wife, Emma Hale Smith who say Joseph dropped a magical seer stone into his hat, then buried his face in the hat and proceeding to dictate the Book of Mormon. Show me one picture where the Mormon church has published Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon like that.

And Smith clearly violates Galatians 1:6-9 by writing the Book of Mormon. The angel called Moroni in Mormonism allegedly gave the golden plates to Joseph Smith who was to translate them into English, thus making the Book of Mormon. They made a different gospel other than ther Bible. How much clearer does God need to make it other than what is in Galatians?

“But though we, or an ANGEL from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9

I’m far more inclined to focus on the product of an event verses the process. Even though much has been written about that process, let’s stay focused on discussing the product shall we?

This is standard for Mormons, they want to ignore their past. You say “focus on the product”. I think you’re being a little sophmoric about the history of the Mormon church Skinner. You said, Mormons have nothing to hide. I’m calling you out on that. I think Mormon history is an embarrassment. Throughout the years in the church Blacks were a cursed people. This changed after the great Civil Rights laws were passed and the Mormons looked like fools to still call them cursed of God.

That is just silly. Okay.

I’m not calling you personally a liar – It’s disengenous to pass off that anti-Mormon Kool-Aid rhetoric as fact, especially when I’m here to call it out.

SkinnerVic on February 11, 2008 at 4:39 PM

Sorry, it’s just that you have repeatedly insinuated I am a liar and I’ve distorted facts about Mormonism. Looks kinda like you’re trying to spin it now. If you want to disagree with me fine, but don’t call me a liar when I’m providing legitimate evidence for my argument.

Regarding your claims about 1 John 5:7:

See, you make my point for me Skinner about Mormons beliefs about the Holy Bible. Mormons claim the Bible (and I’m referring to the 1611 King James version, not these modern day watered down versions) has errors. You believe 1 John 5:7 shouldn’t be in the Bible. Thus, the Bible is corrupt. That’s blaspemous to Christians. You wrote, “This intrusive text ended up in the King James Bible.” First of all, I don’t agree with the Mormon claim, this passage is called the Johannine Comma and is a wonderful testimony to the Heavenly Trinity.

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 1 John 5:7

Obviously, this verse carries the clearest and most explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity to be found in the Bible. You’re arguing because there isn’t much manuscript evidence for it, it shouldn’t have been included in the Bible. That’s not quite true. There is sufficient evidence. Read here. Besides, your argument does not eliminate it as genuine. This verse fits in quite nicely with the verses before and after it. The continuity and sense are beautifully structured and sequenced if it is included. You’re not proving a thing. The Trinity does not depend on this verse, of course, it is implied in many other Scriptures (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14).

Look, Joseph Smith and the Mormons have to attack the Bible and come up with this lie such as this, otherwise Smith’s fantastical ideas and “new religion” would be exposed as fraudulent because it doesn’t line up with the Bible, but, I mean, you don’t see that… Skinner, Joe HAS TO say the Bible is corrupt or he’s a conman and a fraud. We can debate 1 John 5:7 a little later, but I can assure you it is not an error. Here is a short history how the King James Bible came to be. Please watch it. Also, we have NOT agreed on the Trinity at all. We’re miles apart. Let’s go one topic at a time. You are skipping WAY ahead here and missing a whole bunch. There’s no point debating the Trinity when there are other HUGE differences between Mormons and Christianity. We will deal with the Trinity all by itself a bit later. Skinner, if we want to learn the truth about a subject we have to start at the beginning. You say Mormons have nothing to hide. That is just ridiculous. I mean, how can you say that with a straight face. Please wait until I respond to the other half of you post. We’ll start from there if it’s okay. Thanks.

I have NOT lied or distorted any information in our debate, and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar. Everything I’ve posted here is factual. We’ll get into the Trinity in a moment, but I want to challenge your assertion first that I’ve lied and distorted things. Mormon’s have EVERYthing to hide and you know it.

I’m not calling you personally a liar – It’s disengenous to pass off that anti-Mormon Kool-Aid rhetoric as fact, especially when I’m here to call it out. This exercise is about determining the validity thereof. I don’t tolerate proof by assertion and neither should you.

Don’t let your feathers get ruffled because I disagree with your assertions, and please don’t “own” that rhetoric as you will find it’s not that reliable (as shown in my 2:27PM post above with 1 John). As for LDS “hiding” everything, see my answer below…

Are you trying to tell us that Joseph Smith didn’t put a rock in a hat and hold it up to his face to translate the Book of Mormon?

Aw shucks, you know we were trying to keep this secret in public view. /sarc

As an person of reason, I’m far more inclined to focus on the product of an event verses the process. Even though much has been written about that process, let’s stay focused on discussing the product shall we?

Have we flogged that Trinity topic enough with my 12:05PM and 2:27PM posts? If so, I’m going to throw a question at you from my hardcore agnostic days arguing with street preachers. It will be an object lesson that will answer a couple of the next paragraphs in part 1 of your 3 part post.

That said, you’ve got a lot of lies, inaccuracies, smears…. 1) Mormons have nothing to hide, and if we did – would I be here discussing it? (rhetorical)

SkinnerVic on February 11, 2008 at 12:05 PM

I have NOT lied or distorted any information in our debate, and I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar. Everything I’ve posted here is factual. We’ll get into the Trinity in a moment, but I want to challenge your assertion first that I’ve lied and distorted things. Mormon’s have EVERYthing to hide and you know it.

Are you trying to tell us that Joseph Smith didn’t put a rock in a hat and hold it up to his face to translate the Book of Mormon?

For there are three that bear record in heaven
the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost
and these three are one
and there are three that bear witness in earth
the spirit and the water and the blood
and these three agree in one

The text in bold derives from the Vulgate (the Latin translation made chiefly by Jerome) and is found nowhere else in the ancient textual sources for 1 John. The inserted text introduces a strong statement in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity and is clearly secondary. Erasmus later added this passage to his published Greek text of the New Testament, but only after some individuals had produced a New Testament Greek manuscript with this reading. This intrusive text ended up in the King James Bible. [cited]

But don’t take LDS sources word on the subject that the passages in 1 John are corrupted, look here at this third party evaluation.

Hint: Don’t hinge a weak argument on a point which is known to be false.

Of course you don’t. It’s completely different from mainstream Christianity like I said. That’s what I’ve been saying from the start, but you won’t admit it. See, this why Christians think Mormons are tricky and deceptive. Praise God, there’s nothing that the Christian needs to hide. Mormons have to continually hide the dark side of their religion from the naive public. They don’t believe in Christ’s deity. They deceitfully claim to believe in the Godhead; BUT, they only believe that Jesus is “a god,” not God Almighty. Jesus clearly declared that He and the Father were ONE (John 10:30, 1st John 5:7).

OK, couple points (and I’m going to integrate/copy some things from previously quoted material because I’m figuring you’ve not read it).

1) Mormons have nothing to hide, and if we did – would I be here discussing it? (rhetorical)

2) LDS believe Jesus is the Christ, and therefore is divine. If you don’t believe my testimony, look at the testimony of the leaders of our Church in 2000.

3) So, by your scriptural reference to ONE God, I’m expecting you hold a Strict Monotheist view of Christianity. Let’s consider the following:

a. There is only ONE God (Assumption of Strict Monotheism).

b. The Father is God.

c. The Son is God.

d. The Father is not the Son.

The affirmation of any three of these premises entails the denial of the fourth. From premise a, b, and c it follows that the Son and Father are identical. That said, some people view that the Father and the Son are merely different modes of manifestation of the only God. But such a view must deny the very fundamental Christian assertion that the Father is not identical to the Son. The mediator between the Father and humankind cannot be identical to the Father.

A clear distinction between the divine persons allows a coherent notion of three divine persons united as one God. For example, it is coherent to assert the conjunction of: (a) There is only one Godhead;
(b) the Father is a divine person;
(c) the Son is a divine person, but
(d) the Father is not identical to the Son.
The reason that these propositions are conjointly coherent is that the word “God” functions differently when it refers to the Godhead than when it refers to the individual divine persons.

It also stand to reason that such a structure is Biblical and shown rather clearly in Matt 3, 16-17, where all three divine personages are shown separate, beings (Jesus in the water, a Dove (Holy Ghost), and a voice (God the Father).

Therefore, LDS theology states very clearly, “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”

So, are we understanding (not necessarily agreeing) on this topic and can I move along?

If I didn’t know any better from shotgun blast of material, you’ve been drinking good dose of Decker, Tanner, et al. Anti-Mormon Kool-Aid. I sincerely appreciate your last post where you state, “Mormons are not the enemy, Satan is the enemy.” Here here. Let’s work from the place, it’s less contentious.

That said, you’ve got a lot of lies, inaccuracies, smears and I’m going to work, paragraph by paragraph, of which I may lump a couple together because they are related. Please stay with the flow of we’re discussing, it will help put some thoughts together.

After finishing the Book, Joseph Smith said, “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.” (History of the Church, 4:461).

This is the EXACT kind of person we were warned us about. Jesus Himself said, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits”… from such turn away.” (Matthew 7:15-20 and 2 Timothy 3:5).

Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet…When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408-409) [Whole sermon click here.] – Joseph Smith: founder, prophet, seer, and revelator of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

If these Mormons would devote even 5% of their error-detecting attention to Mormonism like they do to Christianity, they would see the lies, wild exaggerations and distortions used to support the silly idea that Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, was a prophet called by God to give mankind the truth about the plan of God. Joseph Smith (1805-1844), the founding prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claimed that as a 14-year-old boy he had a vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The official account of this first vision found in Mormon Scripture (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:14-20). Smith proclaimed in the year 1820 God Himself had designated the Mormon Church as “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” (Doctrines & Covenants, Sec. 1:30).

Joseph Smith’s mother, Lucy Mack Smith, gives some insight into Joseph’s imagination even before he supposedly received the “gold plates”:

“During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelling, and their animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.” History of Joseph Smith by his Mother, 1954 edition, p. 83)

If you’re a Mormon get out of this cult. Converted Mormons make great Christians.

A search for “seer stone” in the Gospel Library at lds.org turned up these articles and many others. David Whitmer was one of the Three Witnesses who saw the Book of Mormon written. The majority of the translation work took place in the Whitmer home. Here’s his testimony:

“I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man. I, as well as all of my father’s family, Smith’s wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation.” (An Address To All Believers In Christ, by David Whitmer, Richmond, Missouri, 1887, p. 12)

Emma Hale Smith, Joseph’s wife, was the first person to serve as his scribe. Here is her testimony as recounted to her son Joseph Smith III:

“In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us.” Eyewitness Accounts

He’s looking at a MAGIC ROCK folks. Any flags going up here!! He’s looking at a magic rock that he found while digging a well with his brother Hyrum. He put a rock in a hat. And holds this hat up to his face to translate the Book of Mormon. It’s really folk magic, folks. that’s what it is. This is the kind of character we’re dealing with here.

Video: A Seer Stone and a Hat – “Translating” the Book of Mormon

Continued below… Part 3

I have a couple issues to deal with in your assertion here. First, we do not hold a “conventional” view of Godhead

Of course you don’t. It’s completely different from mainstream Christianity like I said. That’s what I’ve been saying from the start, but you won’t admit it. See, this why Christians think Mormons are tricky and deceptive. Praise God, there’s nothing that the Christian needs to hide. Mormons have to continually hide the dark side of their religion from the naive public. They don’t believe in Christ’s deity. They deceitfully claim to believe in the Godhead; BUT, they only believe that Jesus is “a god,” not God Almighty. Jesus clearly declared that He and the Father were ONE (John 10:30, 1st John 5:7).

Look Skinner, we can debate whether or not Jesus is God Almighty, or just “a god,” like the Mormons believe, but I want to put things into perspective first. For almost two millennia Christians used the King James Bible for virtually all gospel preaching. It was the universal standard for Bible believing Christians of the world. Christians believe it to be the infallible, inspired, inerrant word of the living God. In it, there are clear warnings about changing it’s Words (Revelation 22:18-19) and false prophets claiming to have a different gospel other than the true saving gospel of Jesus Christ. The apostle Paul in his letter to the Galatians wrote about this:

“I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him (God) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:6-9

The book of Galatians clearly warns us about any man or angel bringing another gospel, while claiming that it is the same gospel. This is precisely what the Book of Mormon does. The angel called Moroni in Mormonism allegedly gave the golden plates to Joseph Smith who was to translate them into English. This was supposed to be the “restoration” of the gospel, which assumes that the gospel needs to be restored. Dear friend, approach carefully when you tread upon areas that God forbids. How much clearer does God need to make it other than what is in Galatians?

There is another Scripture passage that is important to our discussion. In 2 Corinthians 11:3-4, we are warned a second time about “another gospel.” “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent (Satan) beguiled (tricked) Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”

Paul here asserts and confirms that the Genesis record of Eve’s temptation and fall is true and historical, and not allegorical. The “serpent” in Genesis is explicitely identified as Satan, the arch deciever (2 Corinthians 11:14) who turned Adam’s bride against her Maker, in similar fasion to what he was doing at Corinth, using false apostles (instead of a serpents body) to turn the Christian church away from Christ (see Revelation 12:9). Much can be written about the contradictions between the Bible and all the different Books of Mormonism.

In Isaiah, we see that when someone claims to be hearing from God, and it does not agree with the Bible, this disagreement proves they have no light within them. “And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word (Bible), it is because there is no light in them.” Isaiah 8:19-20

All throughout Scripture, the Lord unequivecally condemns consultations with spirit mediums, fortunetellers, astrologoers, witches, and all other occult sources of supposed knowledge and guidance. The “law and testimony” –that is, the written Word of God — provide all the counsel and guidance we need (2 Timothy 3:15). See Joseph Smith’s use of the Seer stone he used to write the Book of Mormon here and here and here.

Continued below…..

The issue of the Trinity alone proves that. This alone proves Mormons worship a different god than Christians do.

I have a couple issues to deal with in your assertion here. First, we do not hold a “conventional” view of Godhead – there are MANY denominations claiming to be Christian (Catholic, Lutheran, etc), based on the diverse view of that, many based on the Nicene Creed. One of the best articles on this is a talk by Jeffrey R. Holland entitled, The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent. I highly suggest reading this before we go further on this point. He does far greater justice than I ever will. Ultimately, you may not consider them “Christian” either – but we already established (and recounted in my 6:10pm post that we are using the Bible the same way to define a Christian. From where I sit, there’s no conflict, as we seemingly meet the requirements detailed in that Scripture.

As for this “Mormon Maze” you speak of, I can possibly see it being confusing if you’re holding on to a lot a views that are contrary, but I will state unequivocally in 10 years of knowing about the LDS Church, 5 years of watching it from being married to a member (while I was a NON-MEMBER AGNOSTIC), and finally months of hardcore investigation before my baptism – it’s one of the clearest doctrinal views of the Bible, not marred from centuries of apostasy, that I have ever come across. So much so, it was the first faith that was actually able to answer questions that I had for decades with no avail. I would suggest that Bible is not as clear you say it is, and all the denominations with differing interpretations is indicative of that.

That being said, and from reading your post to Skidd, if you’re going the fire & brimstone route you can forget it; save that action for someone that doesn’t know better. I’m not interested in arguing and slinging that crap around is a straw man at best and contentious at worse. I’m not having it. Back to getting focused on one issue at a time, let’s work Godhead over.

From my read, many points. Try to distill it down to say 5 – 10 points and number/letter them like:

SkinnerVic on February 8, 2008 at 7:03 PM

I think it’s fair to say Skinner, and surely you must admit, that I’ve already shown clearly with my two posts above that Christians and Mormons worship a different Jesus. The issue of the Trinity alone proves that. I mean, that’s a HUGE difference. I don’t see any reason for me to list them 1 thru 5, etc.

You know our little discussion here has me doing a little reading about Mormonism again, and y’know, the more reading I do, the more dumber it gets. Is there any such thing as endless rabbit holes upon rabbit holes? Read about Mormonism. This little exchange with you has reminded me of something called the “Mormon Maze.”

For mainstream Christians we have one Book, the Bible. Very easy to understand. One Book. Very clear. End of story. Mormon’s though, teach that the Bible is in error and Scripture was not closed when the Bible was completed. You guys have three other sources in addition to the Bible, all of which they believe contain God’s revelations — the Book of Mormon 2 (changed in more than 4,000 places since 1830), Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price… and you guys follow the teachings of these three books even when they contradict the Bible. For example, Mormons teach that the Bible is the Word of God “as far as it is translated correctly.” Then whenever a Mormon belief contradicts Scripture, the Mormons say that particular part of Scripture is translated incorrectly, and that the correct translation is in one of the Mormon scriptures. Thereby, the Bible is rejected as the infallible Word of God. And if that wasn’t enough, you have other books in your history you refer too! This is what’s called the MORMON MAZE.

Christian’s have one Book and one Book only – The Holy Bible.

Anyways, as I said Skinner, I think it’s fair to say that I’ve already shown with my two posts above that Christians and Mormons worship a different Jesus. The issue of the Trinity alone proves that. This alone proves Mormons worship a different god than Christians do. What say you?

5 years ago I didn’t care much for anyone. I thought of me first, second and third. Now, I care for everyone. People that make fun of me, annoying people, angry people, and people that I don’t even know much at all. I understand the precious nature of life now. Something that’s impossible to understand when separated from God.

Good luck, guys. Be nice.

Skidd on February 9, 2008 at 12:36 AM

That’s a great testimony, Skidd. The Bible says, “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) I’ll be looking for you in heaven.

In the meantime, yeah, I always try to be nice, but it’s important to recognize that “Some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire.” Jude 22-23

What that means is our witnessing should normally be with “compassion” but sometimes with sober warnings of hell, depending on circumstances. It should, of course, always be biblical, truthful, and done in loving concern. So if I come across agressive fighting the scoffers to help get them saved this might fall into the, “saving with fear” category. Others, including yourself, may want to take a more compassionate approach. I don’t see any problem with either. Both are Scriptural. Thanks for your nice post.

…many nice words and commentary…
Good luck, guys. Be nice.

Skidd on February 9, 2008 at 12:36 AM

I appreciate your testimony. I think all of us here have one or we wouldn’t even give a rip to have such a discussion. Bookmark this, check in and read what we’re up to… I don’t mind at all – it’s my goal to have an intelligent, peaceful discussion that at the end, we’ll probably agree to disagree, but at least you’ll walk away with an understanding of some points in LDS Theology.