Beliefnet poll of evangelicals: More value environment over abortion?
posted at 8:12 pm on January 23, 2008 by Allahpundit
The right-wing atheist’s dream come true:
Generally speaking, however, evangelicals ranked traditionally progressive or Democratic causes as more important than traditionally conservative or Republican ones. Twenty three percent said their views had become less positive about Republicans, twice the number who said they’d soured on Democrats, though half of respondents said they had become less positive about both parties…
Combining those who labeled an issue “most important” or “very important,” the results were:
The economy (85%)
Cleaning up government (85%)
Reducing poverty (80%)
Improving public education/access to health care (78%)
Protecting the environment (70%)
Ending torture (68%)
Ending Iraq war (67%)
Ending abortion (61%)
Combating sex and violence in the media and entertainment (59%)
Illegal immigration (59%)
Stopping gay marriage (49%)
Helping Africa (48%)
Winning Iraq war (46%)
Fighting Islamic radicalism (58%)
Exit question: When does “Conservatives for Separation of Church and State” get founded?
Blowback
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No for all answers.
ninjapirate on January 23, 2008 at 8:16 PM
Ah, crap…
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Not a good showing for illegal immigration.
Big S on January 23, 2008 at 8:20 PM
I guess I’m not too surprised at the environmental part because it gives people in churches something to do, but I am surprised that abortion was behind cleaning up the government. I mean, Mark Foley is more important than abortion? That’s as weird as Hunter endorsing Huck.
It doesn’t matter. As soon as you found it, some charismatic AR governor run up to claim the mantle saying he has always been for the separation of church and state because his soul told him too.
Spirit of 1776 on January 23, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Abraham Lincoln said; “Those principles taught in the public schools in one generation become public policy in the next.”
When people of faith begin to adopt the positions of the dominant culture it proves Lincoln was right.
The first amendment is all about prohibiting the government from regulating communications or punishing people for what they believe. So what do we do? We take the weakest, must vulnerable members of society, little children, put them in a government institution, public schools, and force feed them government information. This is the most egregious violation of the first amendment I can imagine.
Is homeschooling going to be the last place the principles of liberty are taught?
The Rock on January 23, 2008 at 8:22 PM
Can we blame Rick Warren for this?
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 8:23 PM
“It’s the economy,
stupidHuckabee (updated)”CABE on January 23, 2008 at 8:25 PM
I just wish the farging rapture would happen, so we’d be rid of these dill weeds. Two millennia and counting…
peski on January 23, 2008 at 8:26 PM
second look at realignment.
phronesis on January 23, 2008 at 8:26 PM
So these are people who frequent beliefnet? Hmmmm.
jjjen on January 23, 2008 at 8:26 PM
the only prominent bloggers at beliefnet that I’ve heard of are the leftist Jim Wallis and Crunchy-Con (ie. anti-corporate anti-consumerist anti-capitalist) Rod Dreher, so I’m guessing we don’t have allies there.
phronesis on January 23, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on January 23, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Then He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s; and to God the things that are God’s.”
peski on January 23, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Environmentalists have been quietly making inroads with Christian thinkers and theologians for a while now (since at least the early 1990s, actually). Phillip Sherrard, Sallie McFague come to mind off the top of my head. Maybe that finally trickled down?
Wineaholic on January 23, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Let’s look at the methodology
It’s self selected to people who actually visit beliefnet, get their newsletter, and are willing to fill out little survey. Sorry, but the only people who visit beleifnet are people who don’t know what they believe and wish to put that into action. This is like finding out what conservatives believe out of self identified conservatives in a population of NYTimes subscribers.
ninjapirate on January 23, 2008 at 8:36 PM
Doubleplusundead is on the same wavelength as I am.
Somewhere in Maryland, Bryan is writing up a humdinger of a Rick Warren post.
see-dubya on January 23, 2008 at 8:36 PM
Ah, I can see it already “the Church of Christ the Environmentalist” not to be confused with the ever popular “Church of Environmentology”.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:37 PM
AP, I’ve always wondered what someone with your background considers adequate separation. Care to shed some light?
AbaddonsReign on January 23, 2008 at 8:37 PM
I not at all surprised by this poll. Look at who is supporting Mike Huckabee.
Anyway, the key insight that lead me to identify as an atheist conservative is that there is so little difference between the Christians I know and the atheists I know. The worst thing people do acting under the influence of Christianity is they go out to an anti-abortion march or two or oppose gay marriage–but they get over it. The weirdness is also minor in most other major religions. It’s just a religion whose weirdness is to go out and kill the unbelievers that I have problems with. I believe that is called self-defence.
thuja on January 23, 2008 at 8:40 PM
Am I supposed to believe that any Christians voted in this poll?
Buddahpundit on January 23, 2008 at 8:40 PM
Certainly the ‘slims with their fun and games are incomparable to the Christians, but when a lot of them self-organize to vote for Huckabee because he says “Jesus” a lot, their delusions have a negative effect on the real world.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:44 PM
The effects of the liberal/conservative split among evangelical congregations couldn’t stay localized forever. Real people leading real lives in the wider world are involved. This was bound to happen sooner or later. Huck serves as a catalyst.
JiangxiDad on January 23, 2008 at 8:44 PM
If it is merely people visiting that site, I have a hard time believing it is representative of Evangelicals on the whole.
Nevertheless:
It used to be called the Baptist tradition.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 8:47 PM
And therein lays the problem with the republican party today. Somebody screwed up our evangelicals!
conservnut on January 23, 2008 at 8:47 PM
Heh.
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 8:48 PM
@ thuja on January 23, 2008 at 8:40 PM
No, I think the weirdest thing Christians do is try and get Intelligent design taught in our schools, even though there isnt one shred of scientific evidence for it, all of its thesis’ have been proven wrong. That is a far cry from how dangerous Islam is, but its still something that shouldn’t be occurring. As for marching against abortion and gay marraige, thats fairly mild, and pointless, because they arent going to convince anyone either way, and they certainly already have their own minds made up.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 8:48 PM
@ Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:44 PM
Very true, there is that also.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 8:49 PM
I always get a kick of them attacking the “weird” Mormon beliefs. Talk about pot/kettle/black!
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:50 PM
What a crock of @%@* .
.
Add beliefnet to the MSM list.
shooter on January 23, 2008 at 8:51 PM
If they were allowed to have a voucher system, we could bypass all that, but the NEA mafia won’t let it happen.
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM
The worst part of being pre-disposed to accept any kind of irrationality simply because it’s the thing to do, is that it makes you much more likely to accept some much less benign form or irrationality.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:54 PM
So Darwin isn’t a THEORY now but a FACT?
mred on January 23, 2008 at 8:54 PM
@ mred on January 23, 2008 at 8:54 PM
No, its a theory, and will always be a theory. It is supported by thousand and thousands of facts though, something ID simply doesnt have.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 8:55 PM
I’m for the voucher system overall, but if it’s implemented nationwide it will result in MORE kids learning about the “intelligent design” as the only “truth”, not less.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:56 PM
@ doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 8:52 PM
I agree. The school system we have is destined to fail miserably.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 8:56 PM
There are no “facts” in science, there are only theories that have not been falsified. There are also no “facts” in religion, there are only beliefs that don’t “require” any evidence.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:58 PM
@ Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Oh I know, its like a scientologist attacking the People’s Temple led by Jim Jones as crazy.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 8:59 PM
No, it’s a theory. If you had any understanding of the scientific method, you’d know that almost nothing qualifies as a fact. It just a very well developed theory that fits all the evidence we have.
“Intelligent Design” (aka “God did it, and probably my God since he’s the true one) is just Huckabee-esq BS.
peski on January 23, 2008 at 9:01 PM
So what, I don’t believe ID either, but people should be allowed to teach their kids how they see fit, liberty is not a dirty word.
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 9:04 PM
Why care about the environment when Jesus is going to come back and create a “new heaven and new Earth”?
SouthernGent on January 23, 2008 at 9:05 PM
Yes they should. I was just arguing with the premise of the original statement. I love the liberty to teach whatever to whoever, especially one’s kids. I also like the liberty to call someone’s belief crap no matter how sensitive they are about it.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:06 PM
I’ll buy that as long as it’s not a public school. And if that means trash the public school system, I’ve argued for that in the past as well.
peski on January 23, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Wait a minute. Slow down. Plenty of conservatives care about issues like reducing poverty and the environment. The difference is what role Government plays in solving them. I bet these people think the way to solve poverty for example, is through a better economy, education and private charity, not welfare or other form of government handouts.
People love to jump to conclusions.
TheBigOldDog on January 23, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Well since they already acting irrationally, how can you rationally explain more irrationality?
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:08 PM
Muyoso, I suppose I was being a little glib above, so let me answer you seriously. I hold that Creationism is not a big problem, but anti-abortionism is. The practical effect of children not understanding evolution is that they don’t understand how the environment works. However, I don’t believe that that environmental ignorance has much practical effect on how badly we do environmental policy. The problem for environmental policy is that it has got caught up in a sad game between the left and the right.
On the other hand, I think the “pro-life” movement has the plurality of responsiblity for the breakdown of the family by virtue of its contribution to teenage pregnancy. Admittedly, our libertine entertainment is a close second, but still where do kids get the idea that it is ok for them to have kids?
thuja on January 23, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Good points.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:10 PM
It seems likely that if someone is polling you about “issues” and presents you with the list mentioned above they are talking about political issues, not what’s generally important to you like “video games” or “early Impressionist paintings”.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:11 PM
Conservatives trust people to make the right decisions for themselves and their families. Liberals don’t.
TheBigOldDog on January 23, 2008 at 9:12 PM
They don’t get that idea. They get the idea that they want to have sex. The consequences just happen.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:12 PM
Kids get the idea that it’s ok to have sex out of wedlock; babies don’t enter their minds until it’s too late. That idea, they get from their peers, their parents and the culture. The pro-life movement’s ideals cut against all of that, but aren’t heeded.
There are, to be sure, generations of kids who have kids when they’re still kids. They’re not learning that behavior from the pro-life movement. They’re learning it from their parents and grandparents, all of whom had kids when they were kids.
Blaming the culture of teen pregnancy on the pro-life movement is one of the most insane pro-abortion arguments I’ve seen in, well, ever.
Bryan on January 23, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Absolutely that’s what I mean.
Totally, but people who believe ID or creationism(I believe in evolution), as much as you or I might not believe them or even think they’re silly or stupid, they deserve some sympathy for having their hands forced when it comes to the type of education their kids receive, that’s the real problem here.
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 9:14 PM
I’m not a fan of the “pro-life” movement but it’s not obvious that kids learn to make more kids because it’s not OK to have abortions. I doubt that “let’s go make some kids” works as a pick-up line.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Eh still a bunch of Huckleheads
William Amos on January 23, 2008 at 9:14 PM
Lot of assumptions there for someone who cares about “truth.” I have no idea what the nature of the poll was, how it was presented and what people were thinking when the responded. Do you?
Let me point out however that one of the major functions of most Christians churches is charitable work. therefore, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say devote Christians consider the reduction of poverty to be a big issue for them. That does not presume however that they think the best way to reduce it is welfare.
TheBigOldDog on January 23, 2008 at 9:15 PM
@ thuja on January 23, 2008 at 9:10 PM
I dont think abortion has any relation to teenage pregnancies. Teenage pregnancies have been dropping consistantly, and abortion is for the first time in a while down this year. All of these problems, abortion, teen pregnancy, etc, result from a breakdown in family structure. Christian leaders always want to blame other things for this breakdown, whether it is video games, abortion, teh gayz, etc, but will never just OWN the fact that its the parents, the Christian parents just as much as any other parents, which is what is failing. And also, on the issue of abortin, if you dont like it, dont have one, its very simple. Only associate with people who havent had one, only serve people who havent had abortions at your place of business, but dont go out and mandate that no one should be able to have one.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:17 PM
I agree. I also hate it that politically correct public school teacher pressure or bully kids into not voicing any objections to their liberal crap.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Isn’t there a more interesting, less worn out, subject to debate than ID and Evolution that arises out of this post? The course of the conversation is so predictable, the same assertions will be made by both, and no one will convert. Let’s at least talk about abortion and the environment.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Once again, I’m all for vouchers for this very reason, I was arguing with the premise of the initial statement, that the NEA by opposing the voucher system is cause ID to be taught.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:19 PM
Yeah, my college GPA can attest to that…
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Yep Abortion. Unlike evolution I’m sure we’ll have a reasonable conversation and quickly reach a consensus.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:21 PM
You may very well be right, but are “ending the Iraq war” and “improving public education” topics that churches are discussing with abandon?
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Yeah – because pro-life/Christians are for segregation, and hate people who’ve had abortion. Caricature.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:24 PM
So we don’t have all the evidence. Then Darwin is as “proveable” as IT?
mred on January 23, 2008 at 9:24 PM
@ thuja on January 23, 2008 at 9:10 PM AGAIN
Also, for your point about creationism/ID not being a problem. It is PARAMOUNT on how the education system in this country is failing. There are no standards anymore, when someone comes up with a theory that an intelligent designer did it, with no facts, its forced into the curriculum in some places because the school board has a load of supporters of the theory on it. When Global warming gets a single study behind it that shows that the earth is actually warming, and we put out more carbon dioxide, OMFG, they must be related, ITS IN THE TEXTBOOKS without barely any fight. This is the education of our children we are talking about. Believe me, CHINA isnt having this problem. I lived in Beijing for two years, and their education system freaking OWNS ours.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:25 PM
Point well taken.
I should have said – the relationship between the different priorities “evangelicals who took this poll” place on abortion and the environment.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:26 PM
They are topics all Americans care about and discuss. Again, what makes a conservative a conservative is not the issues, they are what they are for all of us. It’s the solutions to our common issues that make people Liberal or conservative.
TheBigOldDog on January 23, 2008 at 9:27 PM
No – I actually know someone who works in IT.
Sorry…
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:27 PM
@ mred on January 23, 2008 at 9:24 PM
No, you see, when you have thousands of facts, and they all line up to say, wow, there is this force which pulls crap to the ground. And there are no facts which state otherwise, you can make an accurate assumption that there is this thing called gravity. The same applies for evolution. There are thousands of facts, they all point one way, and there are no facts which disprove the theory. Therefore, you can make an assumption that the theory is valid. With ID, there are multiple theories, none of which are supported by the facts, so to make an assumption that the theory is valid, you would have to be an ass.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:27 PM
@ nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:24 PM
No dummy, If you read what I said, I was saying that christians can take all of the actions they want in their personal lives without forcing others to accept their way of thinking. Therefore if you want to only associate with people who havent had abortions, or serve people who havent had abortions, that is your god given right. But to have the government force everyone to follow your thought on abortion probably isnt the right way to go. But what do I know.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Again, the typical confusion about the scientific method. “Darwin” will never be provable as “IT”. There is a lot of evidence for it and no evidence against it’s basic premise. There is no evidence that God can speak to someone about to “sacrifice” their son.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:31 PM
OK, it was just my interpretation that that was obviously a political poll. I may be totally wrong about that.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:31 PM
How confusing is this? The Constitution was written over two hundred years ago. The people who think that’s not sufficient don’t want freedom OF religion; they want freedom FROM religion.
As for whatever-the-hell Beliefnet is: if 61% of the people there are opposed to abortion and 80-85% believe that the main role of government is charity, then their “belief” ain’t got nothing to do with Christianity.
Oh, OK, I went and looked up what these whackoids are into: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/76/story_7665_1.html
Belief-o-Matic(TM)
God save us from these moonbats.
logis on January 23, 2008 at 9:32 PM
# nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:18 PM
I am sure people on HA are REALLY going to change their minds on Global warming and abortion, are you serious?
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:32 PM
Name 3 please.
mred on January 23, 2008 at 9:33 PM
The problem that you have with our education system can be solved by doing away with one thing: local control of schools. Is that what you want? I assure you because I’ve been among them, it’s exactly what Beltway bureaucrats want.
Bryan on January 23, 2008 at 9:33 PM
So – poll done on Beliefnet website – so, it is only that site’s readers that accessed the poll. Is all of “evangelicalism” represented evenly in Beliefnet’s readership? And they chose the one’s that identified as evangelical… Do people realize that Evangelicalism, or Christianity for that manner, is not a monolithic entity?
I think that the methodology for this poll is anything but scientific, representative, or reliable. It would be somewhat disingenuous to make too much of these findings.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Vouchers and competition are a much better and also acceptable solution.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:35 PM
Please see my correction/explanation here:
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:26 PM
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:37 PM
Haven’t the NEA, states, Feds, text book manufacturers,and sports interests already done this?
mred on January 23, 2008 at 9:37 PM
I don’t know, dummy. ;)
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM
That’s convenient since the Chinese also own a lot of our debt, currency, and lately banks. At least if they own our education system students will learn early who they’ll be working for. Unless by own you meant…oh, ok, I see.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM
@ Bryan on January 23, 2008 at 9:33 PM
The problem I have with our education system is that the government runs it. I think that the private sector could run a very performance oriented system, which would thrive on the students doing well. Let the kids who fail at the private schools get a government education, which will teach them the basics they need to survive in our country. There is no reason a child who is excelling should be held back because half of her class is either goofing off or plain stupid. There were so many times in school that freaking tests were postponed because some idiot just couldnt get the material and asked a thousand questions that had already been covered, that is unacceptable.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:39 PM
@ dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Give it about 10 years, and they will own our education system too. We will be learning about the GLORIOUS triumph of chairman Mao.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM
That’s a good point. I’m an evangelical, for instance, but I’m not a fan of Beliefnet because it’s too ecumenical for my tastes. I never visit the site. So I wouldn’t be among those who self-selected for this survey, and I would skew much more conservative across the board than their numbers do. My point is, Beliefnet probably attracts a more liberal set of evangelicals than is representative of evangelicals in general. A survey of evangelicals who read Hot Air would yield a very different result.
Bryan on January 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM
@ nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Touche!
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM
I think Rupert bought them. Maybe he’s planning a MySpace tie-in.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Was that “an eye for an eye” or “turn the other cheek”?
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Yet you laud the Chinese system, which is centrally-controlled and not privately run at all. Odd, that.
Just fyi, private schools aren’t a panacea either. Some of the battiest educational ideas get tried in private schools just as often as public schools. And there’s nothing to stop a private school from going all ID all the time if they want and the parents will pay for it.
Bryan on January 23, 2008 at 9:43 PM
It makes sense to me that, as a Christian, I am as free to vote my ethical conscious on abortion as you, me, or anyone else is, on, say, illegal immigration or fighting Islamic radicalism. I wouldn’t consider that trying to impose my, or God’s, will on anyone else. I would consider it adding my voice to the democratic process.
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:43 PM
What’s next “BigBrotherNet” or “YouWillParrotWhatWeSayOrWeWillDestroyYouNet”?
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Holy crap! They’re starting to sound like the Jews (except for the few social issues).
Attila (Pillage Idiot) on January 23, 2008 at 9:44 PM
@muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:40 PM
Ni Hao! Gotta learn more Mandarin.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:45 PM
True, but those schools will ultimately fail in a competitive society when people see they don’t work.
doubleplusundead on January 23, 2008 at 9:46 PM
I love the sound of “the Jews” first thing in the morning!
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:46 PM
That was me loving my neighbor!
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:48 PM
It’s my hope that we can discuss all these issues without acrimony. Even with humor!
And to those who would be too harsh in attacking others here, I urge you to remember that the left watches what we write. It’s a better for conservativism and better for us as a community to be respectful.
thuja on January 23, 2008 at 9:49 PM
@ mred on January 23, 2008 at 9:33 PM
I am not going to NAME any, if you are interested, which you probably arent, you can read about them here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_common_descent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_history_of_life
And enough with the typical argument against wikipedia, attack the content, not the source.
muyoso on January 23, 2008 at 9:49 PM
Either that or “Christianity for Dummies”.
Igor R. on January 23, 2008 at 9:50 PM
Much agreed. Good point.
dedalus on January 23, 2008 at 9:51 PM
Good one!
nailinmyeye on January 23, 2008 at 9:51 PM
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