Video: Anonymous flyer attacks McCain’s years in the Hanoi Hilton
posted at 1:35 pm on January 17, 2008 by Bryan
The South Carolina primary has gone bare knuckle, with push-polling and a swipe at, of all things, John McCain’s military service record. That’s the one and only aspect of McCain’s record that’s unassailable. As a military man, he was absolutely heroic. As a politician, though, he leaves much to be desired.
The question is, who would be dumb enough to attack McCain on the former and not the latter? It’s hard to believe that any actual campaign had anything to do with this.
Update: Here’s the flyer’s source.
Blowback
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Here is a series of three articles written by an individual in North Carolina who has researched Sampley’s antics.
Who Is Ted Sampley and Why Do I Care, Part I. http://www.bluenc.com/node/3783
A Darker Shade of Ted. http://www.bluenc.com/node/3796
Disreputable, Despicable, Dishonest: http://www.bluenc.com/node/3820
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 4:56 PM
OR that true or false or mixed bag someone is trying to create a sympathy backlash for Juan McVano as that is the likely outcome.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 4:57 PM
You didn’t feel that way about John Kerry, did you? How come the records and claims by all of these other POW Vietnam Veterans don’t “stand on their own?” Instead, you simply label them “gutter mouthing characters.” You do know that those who are accusing him were also POW Vietnam Veterans, don’t you?
Again, I’ve done research and only found evidence to SUPPORT the claims while finding nothing to disprove them. Do you get this simple concept? I simply asked if anyone else had found anything different. So far, nobody has. You don’t seem to care.
Those POW Vietnam Veterans who you called “gutter mouthing characters” DID do exactly that, but you choose to ignore it because you don’t like the results.
Be off with you.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 4:58 PM
Here is a pretty detailed debunking of Stapley’s accusations:
http://www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 4:58 PM
LoL. I’d like to introduce you to a friend of mine, though I suspect you’ve already met. Her name is Shameless… Oh, look! She recognizes you.
Lehosh on January 17, 2008 at 2:12 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Good line.
tickleddragon on January 17, 2008 at 4:59 PM
Oh, and for the record, I’ve got quite enough to dislike McVain for without examining his Vietnam record. It’s just not worth the time, when there’s sooooooo much else to slap him for.
tickleddragon on January 17, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Here’s what’s amusing about this. First off, not one of these articles even attempts to disprove any of the accusations. They simply attack Sampley’s credibility.
Wouldn’t it have been easier just to explain what is false about the accusations and why?
And why is it okay to slander and attack Vietnam Veteran Sampley, but not McCain?
I won’t get any answers to these questions, will I?
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 5:03 PM
romeo gregor, et al. If the testimony of McCain’s roommate, MOH winner Bud Day and MOH winner Admiral Stockdale isn’t enough to put this to bed …
BillINDC on January 17, 2008 at 5:04 PM
McCain’s willingness to withstand torture is a trifling qualification for the Presidency.
Kralizec on January 17, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Thank you. Reading it now.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 5:07 PM
Gregor -
I addressed the two main accusations against McCain about 50 comments ago. One (that he gave up intel) is sourced to the North Vietnamese media, thus has little merit.
The second says that McCain broadcast anti-american sentiment for 3 years during the war. If so, the burden of proof is on the accuser to provide a recording.
You ignored this comment in your quest to simply promote fair inquiry. No, theoretically it is not out of bounds for a vet to question a vet with similar experiences, nor to examine proof. You are not adding any proof, nor presenting
any detail that bolsters the case you are wondering about. In the absence of proof, and with contradictory testimony from 2 MOH winners, the benefit goes to McCain.
BillINDC on January 17, 2008 at 5:09 PM
You mean like saying that the plain McCain was sitting in that was blown up while he was sitting in it awaiting take off on the Forestal should be counted as a “plane lost” by McCain? Or the that he “he failed to avoid a surface-to-air missile” in the plane that was shot down in? That somehow that was a “plane lost” and should somehow make us mistrust McCain today? Hey, McCain never clamed to be a good pilot. Isn’t that just common sense?
The rest of the stuff is pretty much debunked in the link and subsequent links from that site that I posted.
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 5:15 PM
Ironic….not at all. A soldier disparages the character of another soldier. They just gave up any claims they might have had of honor.
Really don’t care what their excuse is. IF they were soldiers, and they have lifted themselves up on the bones of another, they….are…scum.
Limerick on January 17, 2008 at 5:17 PM
This is America. We still have the First Amendment, although McCain-Feingold has weakened it.
Nothing is blasphemy.
I have always looked at McCain as not a hero nor a villain vis-a-vis Vietnam, but as a victim. A victim of being a bad pilot or just bad luck or some of both, I don’t know.
Kind of like Christopher Reeve or Tony Snow with his cancer.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Hmmm… I simply said these allegations have been out there a long time… and IF untrue, it could have easily been litigated by now.
And it is a FACT he lost 5 aircraft. Call it being inept, or bad luck… either way not somthing I want in a President.
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 5:19 PM
I see… so you can call THEM scum… and question them… but its NOT OK for them to speak their opinions?
Pot…. meet Kettle…
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 5:22 PM
If true, would be good evidence that torture works…
tommylotto on January 17, 2008 at 5:23 PM
Proudly blackening my face as I type.
Limerick on January 17, 2008 at 5:25 PM
Romeo, one of the planes that guy said he “lost” was a plane he was sitting in on the Forrestal waiting to take off. It was hit by a missile accedentally fired from another plane preparing for take off. McCain survived by inginuity and luck. He then helped his fellow pilots. The experience was probably character building and should reflect positively on someone who wants to be president. Here’s the story:
Lt. Commander McCain was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal off the coast of Vietnam. On July 29, 1967, McCain, an A-4 Skyhawk pilot, was preparing to take off on a bombing mission over North Vietnam, when a horrifying disaster struck. A missile accidentally fired from a nearby plane, striking the fuel tanks on McCain’s plane.
In the ensuing explosions and fire, McCain escaped from his plane by crawling onto its nose and diving into the fire on the ship’s deck. He turned to help a fellow pilot whose flight suit had burst into flames. But before McCain could reach him, more bombs exploded, blowing him back 10 feet, … After the Forrestal disaster, McCain could have returned home. But he would have none of that. Instead he volunteered for more combat duty aboard the carrier USS Oriskany, It was a fateful decision that would stop the clock on John McCain’s life and separate him from his family, and from America, for five and a half years.
http://www.friendsofmccain.com/about/
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 5:27 PM
Within a few months of McCain’s becoming a prisoner of war, his father, Admiral Jack McCain, was appointed commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific. The North Vietnamese, sensing a propaganda prize, offered McCain early release.
But McCain refused early release, citing the code of conduct that prisoners of war should be released in the order in which they were captured. His captors demanded he accept their offer. McCain refused, over and over again. For his repeated defiance, his communist captors savagely beat him.
Before it was over, John McCain spent 5 years as a prisoner of war, two of them in solitary confinement.
http://www.friendsofmccain.com/about/
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 5:28 PM
More: The attacks on John McCain can be traced largely to the work of one man, Ted Sampley, of Kinston, NC
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM
This quotation speaks very well for me. We may not owe McCain the Oval Office (at least I don’t believe so), but we owe him our gratitude for enduring a living hell, to protect the freedoms we have now. That includes the right to participate in this electoral process.
HOO-rah.
manwithblackhat on January 17, 2008 at 5:33 PM
Let’s just all agree to compromise and put McCain on Mount Rushmore and just bypass the Presidency.
I could go with that.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 5:36 PM
Those who have never been to war or not understand the torment of war, should never question others who have been and will be going.
If you don’t recall, Forbes said to McCain on live National TV for all the United States and the World, “I do not believe you are or have been a POW!” In which McCain turned red and gave Forbes a verbal lashing like a good Veteran should on National TV.
If the Proof is in the Pudding, i.e. his DD214 which state what he did, what medals he has, and also states his Status when in the Military, I am more then likely to believe a Government issued document, then anyone who says otherwise.
Have a great day!
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 5:37 PM
That means a whole lot of people saying contradictory things that can’t be questioned.
You can’t get there from here.
- New York City cab driver
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 5:42 PM
Just finished reading it. An interesting perspective. There was one paragraph in particular that I thought was important:
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 5:43 PM
I don’t know.
To me, McCain just gives unwarranted publicity to nutbars like Sampley and Kiley when his campaign responds to these libelous attacks.
It’s like trying to debunk the LaRouchies.
The only thing you accomplish is drawing attention to a group of insular lunatics.
Gerard on January 17, 2008 at 5:45 PM
It also gives McCain a backlash vote. If I didn’t know so much about what he has been doing with Shamnasty and First Amendment, etc., it could almost make me vote for him.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 5:51 PM
UH … notice I said BAD LUCK?
Fact is that after loosing THREE prior aircraft, he probably would not have still been flying if he were not an Admiral’s son.
Sometimes crap just happens… but when it continues to happen to the same person, you have to start looking at the situations pretty hard.
Just like back when I was in… we considered the Purple Heart the Enemy Marksmanship Medal… not really somthing to be proud of (not negative… just not all that positive either)…. and when people had multiple Hearts with very little combat time??? Not someone I wanted on my team… it meant they were either taking WAY too many chances, or just plain had BAD LUCK.
From a bit O research…
1,248,00 Fixed wing sorties flown in VietNam.
900 Navy aircraft lost (not all combat losses… )
1737 Air Force planes lost to combat losses…
Loss rate of about 1 plane for every 473 sorties…
Interesting that McCain after loosing three planes during flight, and another to “wrong place wrong time” was unlucky enough to get shot down after about 23 HOURS of combat time…
Once again… not pointing fingers, but it is interesting.
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 5:52 PM
What an absurd statement. Apparently, you believe that ANY attack of a fellow soldier’s actions makes you scum, even if the accusation is true. You wrote that you don’t care what their excuse is. So I guess with you, no matter what a soldier does, it’s off limits to comment on it. How about the guy who tossed the grenade into his fellow solier’s tent? Is that off limits? Are those who testified against him “scum?”
Is your theory on this the same with cops? Cops should never say anthing negative about another cop, even if that cop is dirty?
Nice.
By the way. One more interesting thing to note. Sampley just happens to be one of the Veterans who started the attack on John Kerry. So I guess now that we’re questioning his motives and credibility, maybe we should all change out attitude and believe that John Kerry was innocent.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 5:53 PM
Spot on upinak!
The smear site is a piece of stinking garbage but I don’t know what shames me more – the fact that Bryan questions whether Johnny Mac was a collaborator on the front page, or that people like Gregor, presumably conservatives, now question the bravery of servicemen who’ve done all but give their lives for this country. If you are questioning McCain’s record in the military virtually all of our servicemen are at risk of suffering such contemptible smears, most of whom haven’t suffered 5 years as a POW, bound and tortured by their captors, and left with almost two years of reconstructive surgery just to walk again. I’m afraid it’s not only the left that seems to suffer from a lack of integrity these days.
Pax americana on January 17, 2008 at 5:54 PM
MB, did you mean him, or a sculpture of him?
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 5:55 PM
In a campaign you have to respond, otherwise the alternate reality starts to become the truth. Ref: Truthers.
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 5:57 PM
This is just garbage and puts up front the only positive thing McCain has going for him. The only way to “damage” his POW experience is to bring in water boarding into it. “Mr. McCain, we appreciate the fact that you stood up to the torture and that something like water boarding would have had no effect on you. That being said, the cowardly pieces of extreme garbage that we are pushing the buttons on can’t hold a candle to your bravery and toughness. These techniques CAN work, DO work, and SHOULD WORK FOREVER UNTIL THIS BATTLE IS WON! Politics be damned.”
JeffinOrlando on January 17, 2008 at 5:57 PM
His motives seem to be, from reading his site, that there are POWs left behind that need to be found and the government is not spending enough time doing it. It doesn’t explain some of the more disingenuous things he has done though.
bnelson44 on January 17, 2008 at 6:00 PM
LOL.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Gregor, I got your back on this.
In An Enormous Crime, Hendon and Stewart make the case that our government knowingly left hundreds of POWs in Vietnam and Laos in 1973, and that every administration since then has covered it up.
That is not a new story, it has been around ever since the 70s, but the media has conveniently ignored it for the most part.
Now, however, in addition to compiling a mountain of evidence that has been rumbling around underneath the Mainstream Media radar for decades, An Enormous Crime also implicates Arizona Sen. John McCain, presidential candidate and the ultimate Vietnam veteran, for aiding in a decades long cover up that strikes right at the heart of everything that matters to American veterans.
How about this from Michael D. Benge, a former POW in North Vietnam (1968-1973): I lay part of the blame on the fact that our politicians lost a winnable war. You are at a great disadvantage in getting the truth out of the enemy when you lose, instead of winning — rather like being a eunuch. The American and Vietnamese military were not defeated by the NVA, but were betrayed and defeated by politicians in the United States. These same politicians, such as John Kerry, and later, John McCain, as U.S. senators in 1993, swept it all under the rug when they were members of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs and issued their final report that there was no evidence that any POWs were still alive in Vietnam. Neither was there evidence that they were dead. Our government gave the North Vietnamese a list of over 300 POWs that were last known to be alive and in the hands of the North Vietnamese. To this date, only a handful of remains of these POWs have been returned. This begs the question, “What is the fate of those not yet accounted for?” Yet Senators McCain and Kerry, apologists and advocates for the North Vietnamese communists, claim that they are fully cooperating in the accounting process. I beg to differ with them.
Does ANYONE here think that Lt. Col. Buzz Patterson is a hack too? Please pick up a copy of his NYTimes best seller Reckless Disregard: How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, and Jeopardize Our Security.
THEN come back and defend John McCain to me.
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Good question.
I’m not sure.
We better do both just to cover all our bases.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 6:04 PM
Oh grow up and get a clue. I happen to be a Vet. My father is a Vet. My Grandfather is a Vet. My nephew is a Vet. Get off your arrogant soapbox.
If I came home from serving my tour and lied my ass off to further my career, I should be humiliated in front of the world. Being a Vet does not make it okay to be a scumbag.
With that said, pay attention and get a grip on the fact that not once have I indicated a belief that John McCain is guilty of these charges. My battle is with those such as yourself who feel that serving gives you a pass on even being questioned.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 6:05 PM
Gentlemen, or whatever you refer yourselves to being called.
Would you walk up to a Iraq/Afghanistan War HERO without a leg, arm, in a wheelchair and ask them how they felt about having their extremidities taken? Would you walk up to a POW of THESE War’s (yes there are TWO WARS GOING ON) and ask them how they FELT about being held HOSTAGE!
You “MEN” should be ashamed of YOURSELVES! NOTHING and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, give YOU BOYS any right to question, judge or say anything to a PROVEN VETERAN who is in FACT A POW!
You may not like his politics, so be it! You may not like HIM as a PERSON, and that is your right as an AMERICAN! But don’t you EVER give him crap for something YOU have NEVER been through nor WILL ever go through!
Thank a School Teacher if you can read MY post… Thank a VETERAN you can read it in AMERICAN ENGLISH!
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 6:06 PM
That Forrestal incident is amazing. All of the crewmen who were in the vicinity of McCain’s plane were killed, 132 crewmen die overall, but the pilot of the plane survives with no major injuries, if any injury at all???
I wonder if the New York Times was trying to make a hero out of him after this happened and even prior to be taken POW.
Buddahpundit on January 17, 2008 at 6:06 PM
“The term “gentleman” is overrated, and besides, there is a time and place for everything”.
- – Sir PB
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:13 PM
http://www.strike-the-root.com/72/knight/knight1.html
So, does noone want to take me on re McCain?
I do NOT question his Vietnam experience, I question what McCain did when he GOT BACK, and why was McCain the FIRST call Kerry made in search of a VP?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Your welcome then…
USN (Ret.)
Just as I will, and have, defended with my own body your right to “call me out” on somthing…
I also have the RIGHT to call you an A$$Hat….
Kinda funny how I’m a Vet, MB4s a vet, Gregor is a vet… don’t know about Tommylotto….
Tell me… are YOU a Vet? Because by your own arguements, you don’t have the RIGHT to question us MEN who are PROOVEN VETS…
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 6:17 PM
HEY!
Where’d everybody go?!?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:17 PM
Bravo Sierra!
Even after McCain/Feingold the First Amendment still exists.
This is not North Korea and McVain is not The Dear Leader.
As I said before, I look at his six years as a POW as not something that makes him a hero or a villain, more of a victim.
In any case, he has long since used up any chits that he may have earned decades ago.
His gift card has expired.
I will question anything I want to about him or anyone else.
MB4 on January 17, 2008 at 6:20 PM
There is a child inside my heart tonight
No one can see that child but you
Percy on January 17, 2008 at 6:26 PM
upinak, I have fought on other threads for what you’re trying to say, but the above statement is simply false.
And you have that freedom/right, by virtue of being a citizen of this country, and I grant you this right, just because you, and others, fought/fight, so that I can do that, and so I can also question/say anything.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:27 PM
Hey jacka$$! I AM a Veteran. So are those who are accusing John McCain.
Dumba$$!
By the way …
Thanks to John McCain, that “American English” you referred to might not be so familiar soon.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 6:28 PM
I am happy you are both Veterans, and THANK YOU for your Service. But don’t go knocking other people no matter the circumstances or the events. You don’t know who has actually served and who has not.
You may be surprised on who has and who has not.
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 6:28 PM
LEAVE JUAN ALONE!!!
HE IS A HUMAN BEING!!!
Besides I need him now more than ever if I am going to complete my strategic plans in a timely fashion.
VinyFoxy on January 17, 2008 at 6:29 PM
Oh the irony. It hurts.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Well everyone should be at this site:
http://www.LearningSpanishForJuanForDummies.com
VinyFoxy on January 17, 2008 at 6:34 PM
Interesting….. I never called you names. And BTW I have served, under Clinton actually when he was cutting the budget and making life miserable for the military is all aspects including for my Father and Grandfather for VA benefits. Whom are both vets as well. Grandfather (Marine) is a WWII and Korean Vet and Father, too young for Vietnam, yet served for 5 years (Airforce) and DoD for the rest of his Life.
No worries concerning it.. since as you have said.. I am a a$$, remember.
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Uuuugh!
I repeat:
*sniff*
I wanna play too. Why come noone will play with me?
My linkie no wooooooooooork!
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:36 PM
You got that right Gringo.
Soon now you will have to speak Spanish only and never say any bad things about el Presidente Juan the First.
Your Grandfathers kept you from having to learn German or Japanese or be lamp shades. But YOU ARE NOT the men or women that they were, not even close.
Once El Presidente Juan the First grants us our amnesty, we will all come to your country. We will all have at least 10 kids and in a generation we will overwhelm and deport most of you Gringos! Some of you, if you learn Spanish real well, we might let you stay to pick our lettuce or mow our lawns or take care of OUR children in what used to be your houses.
And remember Gringos,
APRENDER EL ESPANOL!!!
VinyFoxy on January 17, 2008 at 6:41 PM
upinak, your service and everyone’s is much appreciated. There is no doubt about that. John Kerry’s is appreciated. His actions afterward are not. We can discuss and question, and remember that I also have argued your points, several times.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:45 PM
VinyFoxy – Believe – your link is not working, or does strange things. Tried repeatedly.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:47 PM
Because they’re friends and Kerry wanted to win.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:48 PM
You “MEN” (derogatory term questioning my manhood… wanna throw down right now?) should be ashamed of YOURSELVES! (for actualy questioning a politician about his veracity). NOTHING (except for maybe my DD214) and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (except maybe my Purple Heart and a WHOLE bunch of deployment ribbons), give YOU BOYS (deragotory term for a 48 year old man) any right to question, judge or say anything (except for this pesky thing called the CONSTITUION) to a PROVEN VETERAN (only truthfull thing in the whold diatribe…).
Moral outrage is the last defense for those who have no evidence. Me thinks thou dost protest too much…
I was simply asking questions… you are the one who started judgin US, thus making you… the A$$hat…
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 6:49 PM
That is the point Ente. Their service is appreciated… even if their politics aren’t.
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Si, Senor!!!
http://projectusa.org/ezine/polls/apply_for_lettucepicker.php
Si, senor! Una cerveza, por favor.
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:50 PM
You Gringos amaze me. How did you ever steal this country from us anyway?
You can not even pick lettuce even for $50 dollar an hour and you can not use perfectly good links.
VinyFoxy on January 17, 2008 at 6:51 PM
John McCain also seems to be really close friends with Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, and Linsey Graham too.
I think that was his point. Do we really want this man as our President?
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 6:51 PM
Indeed!
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 6:52 PM
I said men due to the fact I am female. Interesting theory huh!
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 6:53 PM
I will apologize for the name calling then, because I also mistook the “MEN” and “BOYS” use as personal insults.
Gregor on January 17, 2008 at 6:56 PM
But, WHY are they friends?
My answer… because they were “brothers in arms” when it came to deserting their “brothers in arms”.
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 6:57 PM
Califemme, I like your nome de plume – your last statement is too much. In Washington there are very strange bedfellows.
Guilty as charged.
Believe.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 7:00 PM
So, its your contention that you did not INTEND to be insulting? That your use of the EMPHASIZED terms were NOT meant to belittle us? It was not intended to sound like a Mother chastiseing little boys for boorish behaviour?
That you were not attempting to shame us into not questioning a politician?
Pretty LAME theory in my opinion.
Romeo13 on January 17, 2008 at 7:01 PM
no worries, I figured as much.
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 7:06 PM
To be continued in about two hours – yet to solve this, hard as it is to agree. Perhaps home computers are more cooperative.
It might be good to take a break and a deep breath. Sometimes emotions fly too high on the HA political threads. Later.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 7:11 PM
Thank you so much. I also appreciate yours!
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 7:12 PM
Califemme, I live in CA too, North San Diego.
Entelechy on January 17, 2008 at 7:14 PM
Entelechy, I’m in W. Hollywood… Land of the Lib.
Who’s your candidate?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 7:21 PM
Point One: Yes, the site looks kooky.
Point Two: If McCain’s record is so squeaky, why do people question it so harshly? And why was he calling Kerry smart, good, etc.?
Whether or not the allegations on the site are true (I didn’t read too much, it wasn’t interesting and seemed fake-ish), I take issue with this self-admission:
That last part sounds like a load of crap, used to shield himself. He isn’t a war hero, to me. The soldiers who fought, died, were injured, were POW/MIA, and didn’t cave? They’re all war heroes. But I think the one’s who cave shouldn’t be considered war heroes. Period. Not that I don’t appreciate his service, but come on – how is caving heroic?
emailnuevo on January 17, 2008 at 7:24 PM
I’m willing to let him slide on any and all acts while he was a POW. “Let he without sin, cast the first stone” and all that. What makes me ill, is his reckless disregard for servicemen who were STILL POWs after he got back, and he did it with Kerry’s help. Kerry’s office was busted for shredding documents relating to POWs still in captivity.
And if the supporters of McCain doubt that, google it. And then tell Col. Buzz Patterson that he’s a liar.
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 7:34 PM
Actually, this doesn’t do anybody a service. We’ve had several McCain ‘truthers’ on here trying to convince everybody that McCain disgraced himself as a POW, or that he failed a test of honor by even becoming a POW. Well, it’s obvious garbage and we have to call it out when we see it. As Bryan said, McCain is undesirable as a POTUS for many reasons, but his military service record isn’t one of them. Actually, peddling this trash makes those of us who don’t want to see him as the nominee have to come forward and defend him. Not, I suspect, what they intended, but it’s slander, plain and simple, and I (and many others) will stand up to it every time.
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 7:36 PM
Which trash?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 7:37 PM
correct
upinak on January 17, 2008 at 7:45 PM
Got mirror?
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM
McCain lost his hero status with me when he was at the forefront of the move to normalize relations with Charlie.
Why and what was the rationale of being at the forefront?
Could you or would you have done that?
Captured, tortured, and then only a few years later friend.
He did not just go along with the move, he pushed it.
Not when he was a old man, but at a time he was still trying to make his place in this world.
I don’t dwell on these things as I pick my candidate, he has
made it too easy for me to eliminate him otherwise.
Dersu on January 17, 2008 at 7:46 PM
Amen, though we disagree on my point.
emailnuevo on January 17, 2008 at 7:54 PM
I’m not goofing on ya man and I don’t know your background, but that’s a thin line of evidence you are drawing, even as circumstantial evidence. I personally don’t agree his forgiveness of North Vietnam, but based on the overwhelming evidence, I’m not calling him a turncoat because of that. The lefties who actively aided and abetted the VC, yeah, they are turncoats…but somebody who spent 6 (less than pleasant) years on the Hanoi Hilton, no. Like I’ve mentioned before, I’m no McCain (the politician) supporter, but I’m not about to let anybody innuendo their way into calling him anything less than a military hero without facts from here to the moon and back. And what you just presented is nothing more than innuendo.
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 7:56 PM
I’m still confused, please explain.
http://www.nationalalliance.org/vietnam/19cases.htm
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 7:58 PM
Sorry, I meant to address you…
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Entelechy,
“VinyFoxy” is yanking your chain (and everyone else’s).
Don’t you recognize the name “VinyFoxy?” Hint: George W. Bush would.
baldilocks on January 17, 2008 at 8:05 PM
Those folks need to change their name.
baldilocks on January 17, 2008 at 8:08 PM
Doesn’t say anything about McCain’s military service record. Please explain.
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Do you have some evidence to the contrary re my statements on McCain?
I, for one, did NOT trash his service, and I never will. (My biological father and my Dad are both Vietnam Vets, and I am a product of the Vietnam War. Born in Thailand, because my biological Dad was on R&R in Thailand, same as my Dad who adopted me when he brought my Mom and I from Thailand.) Hell, I didn’t even trash Mr. “Three Purple Hearts” Kerry. I trashed him on his record, a la Zell Miller, but it seeeeeeeeems like McCain is simply trying to pull a Kerry in this election.
Remember his first ads? ALL about his service, NOT about his record. What say you?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Sweet!!
People are in here defending McCain, and it’s not me!
Rightwingsparkle on January 17, 2008 at 8:20 PM
Look, I’m sorry I even got into this, but I’m here now, so let’s have it out. You have provided no ‘evidence’ of anything. I respect your families service to the n’th degree, but just don’t even go there. This is a blue-on-blue fight. If you are trying to defeat McCain on his MSR, then you are in the weeds.
Did you see the flyer? It trashes his MSR and you are telling us why that is so good. Well, you (and actually I), may disagree with his position about North Vietnam once he became a politician, but that’s not what this flyer is about. It accuses him of collaborating with the VC while in captivity. Now if you have evidence about that (other that innuendo) then we would all like to hear hear it and I’m sure he would love him to answer it. But the kind-of vague innuendo we’ve hear so far (like why did he want to normalize relations with North Vietnam if he really suffered in the Hanoi Hilton) is no where close.
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 8:33 PM
It’s inevitable that a comparison would be made between McCain’s service, and any attacks on that, and the Swift Boat Vets attacks on Kerry. That’s unfortunate because it like comparing apples and oranges.
Anything McCain did while a POW is excusable. The fact that he stood up and, by most accounts, was strong under that kind of duress, is a testament to his character and affords him a measure of respect that he deserves until the day he dies and beyond.
That doesn’t mean he deserves to be president, it just means he doesn’t deserve to be treated any less than he has earned. He earned the respect he has now.
Kerry is a different story. John Kerry admitted treason on the floor of the United States Senate on April 22, 1971. There is no way around that. It’s on tape. It’s part of the Congressional Record. It’s right there for all to see, in his own words.
Not only did Kerry admit to treason, he told the entire world that our soldiers were guilty of committing war crimes on a daily basis with the full awareness of all levels of command, and he did that knowing it was a lie, and he did it while we still had POW’s, like John McCain, held in captivity. Later that same day he held a press conference with the wives of POW’s where he, again, promoted the enemies cause.
I will never understand how John McCain could ever forgive what Kerry did on April 22, 1971, and the fact that McCain could ever be in the same room with the man without decking him says a whole lot about what a politician McCain real is.
Jaynie59 on January 17, 2008 at 8:55 PM
Understood. But, why are you attacking ME on this?
Again, I REPEAT,
So why must I look in mirrors?
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 8:55 PM
Agreed. But, it’s what he did on his return, that I question.
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 8:58 PM
Bad move in an election. The press is going to ask him and they will air it. Whether he gives a response or not. So his non-response is a response in and of itself. Not responding gives the press something to talk about and drags the story out. If you think the accusations with Kerry would have been a story in the press for as long as it was without his lack of response, you’re kidding yourself.
FireDrake on January 17, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Well, I’ve read your comments, and maybe I misunderstood your response. I guess I didn’t get the gist of this:
Now, I hope it was evident from my post that the ‘trash’ I was referring to was about accusing him of collaborating with the VC. If not, then I will state again, that anybody who puts forward a theory about McCain’s MSR that includes the allegation that he collaborated with the VC while a captive or ‘allowed’ himself to be taken prisoner is a sh*thead of the highest order unless they can put forward true evidence of a degree seldom seen in human history. We may just be crossing paths here, but if we are, then enlighten me.
AUINSC on January 17, 2008 at 9:07 PM
Yeppers, I wouldn’t trash his MSR, it’s not for me to “throw stones at glass houses”. We’re cool.
This is the first (thread) I’ve heard trashing his MSR, so I figure maybe others have info that I don’t. I did read somewhere today that the reason he was captured was because he missed the bombing target on his first approach, and he made a second approach from the very same spot or IP, enabling the vietnamese to shoot him down. True? I have no idea. But I sure am pissed about what he did after he got back to states and became a Senator!
Califemme on January 17, 2008 at 9:18 PM
Was McCain in Vietnam?
Chakra Hammer on January 17, 2008 at 9:24 PM
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