Video: US-Chinese naval confrontation in the Taiwan Strait
posted at 11:49 am on January 16, 2008 by Bryan
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The confrontation happened back in November, and as the retired general notes a) it’s probably connected to China’s refusing our ships a traditional port visit to Hong Kong over Thanksgiving and b) cat and mouse games on the seas aren’t all that uncommon. The US battle group’s response — halting and remaining in confrontation mode for 28 hours — probably is unusual though. That response might be tied to the incident in which a Chinese sub was reported to have surfaced within the Kitty Hawk battle group last year. Any squids in the readership want to chime in?
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Ooooh, and a confrontation with a country that never has internal struggles about it’s inherent Islamophobia.
Too bad we play by rules . . .
-R
The Therapist on January 16, 2008 at 11:57 AM
The Navy has stuff like this that happens more often then people realize. Some information gets out there due to leaks.
upinak on January 16, 2008 at 11:58 AM
I know those Navy guys want to try out some of their hardware,
HA! Long standing HA tradition! I posted a comment!!!!
csdeven on January 16, 2008 at 11:59 AM
What is the point in getting upset over this?
How many Republican front runners have come out against outsourcing jobs to China and instituting tarrifs?
Look around your house and see how many items say “made in China”
What is the point in getting upset over this? We are funding their navy.
bnelson44 on January 16, 2008 at 12:00 PM
Megan calls it trouble for the US navy?
I can promise that anyone dumb enough to engage our Navy is the one who will have trouble.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 12:01 PM
Right now my island home is asleep (3am). We are particularly concerned about events like this because of our proximity to China and the recent buildup news of the Marines from Okinawa to here.
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:02 PM
That is, unless it’s Iranian small boats in the Straits of Hormuz. In that case … oh, wait, those aren’t all that uncommon either.
Hey, by the way, whatever happened with that incredibly dangerous near-international incident the other day?
Drum on January 16, 2008 at 12:04 PM
heh! You have your flaws, but genius!
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:04 PM
Just underscores the need for a President that will aggressively build up the navy. Do not fool yourself. While we must defend ourselves from global fundamentalist jihad, we must also realize the looming threat of the massive increases in the Russian (navy, specifically) and Chinese military.
Anyone notice that the Russian navy is carrying out exercises in the Mediterranean Sea AND is only making parts of call with Arab nations?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on January 16, 2008 at 12:04 PM
im not really understanding the problem here
If a chinese battle group was off our coast in international waters I bet the US would be tailing them too
whats the difference?
offroadaz on January 16, 2008 at 12:05 PM
geckomon,
Since we probably don’t get as much news about what is happening in that region, would you inform us on the current political and economic situations in that area? (I’m being serious)
j_ehman on January 16, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Well, this is all very encouraging.
/sarcasm
CP on January 16, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Remember this from the summer?
Russian bombers buzz US base in Guam
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:07 PM
Agreed. Cold war is being restarted by the same players as before. The main differance is that this time, we will have a more difficult time spending them into submission as they have huge revenue provided by us. It’s not good.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 12:09 PM
The differance is that we are said to be friends now. It would be like England doing it, or France.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 12:10 PM
upinak is right things like this go on all the time, it’s that most never make it to the media or the media ignores them.
In 94 the Kittyhawk battle group I was with prosecuted a Chinese sub with a Helicopter from our FFG (they wanted pictures and they went out to take them , came back and no film it was hilarious). I recall approaching an island claimed by China because we don’t recognize it. It was assumed by many of us that we wanted to “see what would happen”.
The navy engages ships and subs all the time. Russian Oscar class subs, Iranian Boats and pretty much anyone they “run” into out at sea.
Ravenlike on January 16, 2008 at 12:11 PM
How dare they treat their best customer like this.
JayHaw Phrenzie on January 16, 2008 at 12:12 PM
Where the hell did we put our Big Stick ™?
Frozen Tex on January 16, 2008 at 12:13 PM
We could bring China to its knees in a matter of minutes without firing a shot. All it would require would be a little … well, jeez, I hate to throw this out there, but here goes: a little America first economics.
Nahhh, too Pat Buchananish; too Ron Paulish.
Drum on January 16, 2008 at 12:14 PM
The Chinese are using diesel subs. They are much harder to detect than Nuke subs. I suspect that incident is an exercise in figuring out your adversary’s capabilities.
csdeven on January 16, 2008 at 12:15 PM
I’ll bet ya there was an American sub shadowing the chicom sub the whole time and the chicoms still don’t know it.
Yea a first strike on the chicoms part would be the worst and last mistake they would ever make.
SoTX on January 16, 2008 at 12:16 PM
I doubt it. They could just crater the dollar and then we’d be starved for energy. Our economies are too intertwined for us to try to harm them that way. We can only hope that economic freedom is the poison pill that will kill the ChiComs.
trubble on January 16, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Why wouldn’t the PLA take a shot? Isn’t our top admiral (Mullen, who also supports LOST) the same guy that had to suck up to them when they downed our plane back in the day?
Where have our Pattons and Shermans gone?
Kid from Brooklyn on January 16, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Politically, nothing much to say. Our politics are like small-town style. It’s a tiny island with not much room to hide. Cept lots of behavior on Guam would be interpreted as dishonest if practiced in the States. I won’t go into detail. Just check out The Pacific Daily News to find out.
Ecomonically, poor. We rely on Japanese, Korean and most recently Chinese tourism and previously on the military. However, because the US decided to give the rest of Micronesia free association, we have an influx of non-American, but legal “resident” immigrants who are putting strains on our welfare and educational systems.
We have an immigration issues too, just slightly different. Most of our illegals are Chinese and sneak thru via Saipan.
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:25 PM
They’re probably lying around in the same spot as that Big Stick ™ I was looking for earlier. Anyone find it yet? It might come in handy soon…
Frozen Tex on January 16, 2008 at 12:27 PM
Dude, it already has. Those guys are not still communists. They’re beating us at our own game and we don’t care.
Drum on January 16, 2008 at 12:28 PM
They are much harder to detect when submerged and operating on battery power. But those batteries can only provide power for so long (a timespan measured in hours), after which they have to come up to or near the surface and fire up the diesel engines. Once they do that, they are extremely easy to detect as they put a very distinct sound in the water that passive sonar can hear from very long distances. They are also much more limited in speed, maneuverability, and range.
And while admitting my biases towards U.S. subs, I can matter-of-factly state that they are by far the best in the world.
thirteen28 on January 16, 2008 at 12:28 PM
Is that what your readers are to you, frightening creatures from the depths??? Well, I never.
mattyj86 on January 16, 2008 at 12:31 PM
AND China is holding a lot of our national debt. Trade deficit….move along, nothing to see here.
They have been neutered by the likes of people like the Clintons. In their world view, military action is only warranted AFTER checking with the lawyers. It is a sad day when we would prosecute the finest of Americans for doing their job.
Hey, how’s that Haditha thing going? Anyone remember that? Hello??
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on January 16, 2008 at 12:32 PM
geckomon,
Well, I was really referencing what you were saying about being worried about the Chinese and their relations with Japan and such. :) I have heard that there are TONS of snakes in Guam though :)
j_ehman on January 16, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Just in Case:
Squid: Submariner. Like a squid, they also live under water and eat other squid/fish. Generally, any sailor (current or former) in the Navy
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Well, the Chinese citizens are (have always been) capitalists. It’s the government that is communist. That’s the only way of keeping a billion-plus people in line. Could you imagine what would happen in the Chinese military turned on the government?
Freedom, baby! Yeah.
Thomas Jefferson said it best. “A little rebellion now and then…is a medicine necessary for the sound health of government.”
Are any Chinese generals regular HotAir readers?
Dr.Cwac.Cwac on January 16, 2008 at 12:39 PM
Good! For the cost of construction and deployment I’d be rather disappointed to find them second-best.
Browncoatone on January 16, 2008 at 12:40 PM
It’s simple, offroadaz, and your analogy is dead wrong. The USN had, and has, legitimate business in the Taiwanese Strait. The USN has a port of call in Taiwan. The Chinese military has NO legitimate business in close proximity to the CONUS or Hawaii, and NO port of call in either area, as well. If all you did was send a single sub after seeing a People’s Chinese Navy carrier group steaming into Pearl Harbor or San Francisco Bay, you’d be a fool.
Wise Golden, you’re dead wrong, too. Not to be insulting, but I don’t know what planet you’re from, where the Chinese are America’s friends, but that’s DEFINITELY not true, and never will be. Bottom line, dude: WE ARE AT WAR with China. The People’s Republic of China is America’s ENEMY in a cultural, political and economic war, and we’re losing, because we’re not treating this war like the serious conflict it is. The Chinse are, unfortunately, and taking full advantage of our lack of commitment and reaction. I recommend you read “Wars of Blood and Faith”, by Ralph Peters. Comparing China’s unwarranted provocation to misconduct from a NATO ally is way off the mark.
Drum, I agree with you, and recommend you read “Wars of Blood and Faith”, too. China, while gaining momentum, could be cut off by America, if we tried. The main thrusts of their businesses are in Africa and in proximity with India (another emergent power, and actually a competitor). The Chinese are blatant, unrepentant racists, and it spills over in many of their business dealings with black Africans (whom they consider to be the subhuman scum of the Earth), and the black Africans are becoming increasingly resentful of it, even as they watch Chinese rakie in billions from them in resources. The Africans LOVE American, by and large, and they are more than happy with the decision to create a new Unified Command: AFRICOM. If we (America) were to move in and continue working on promoting good relations with the African nations, the Chinese would find themselves ass-out, pretty quickly. Then, there’s India. Flat-out, the Indians like us better than they like the Chinese. If we did some more mutual back-scratching with India (though not to the point of alienating Pakistan) and worked to convince them that they’re better working with us, than the Chinese, it would seriously hurt the Chinese economy. If we did both, the Chinese would be in a lot of financial trouble, and we’d be a lot better off, both financially and militarily. If you read “Wars of Blood and Faith”, you’ll also see that the Chinese aren’t really much of a threat to the US militarily, either.
Virus-X on January 16, 2008 at 12:42 PM
“The Stick” is the nickname of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, CVN-71. I think it’s currently near Norfolk doing work-ups for deployment…
Blacklake on January 16, 2008 at 12:43 PM
I know that — I mean to say that our governments are portreying that we have a friendship. It does not seem to be the reality. I’m from Earth by the way.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 12:45 PM
The only snakes are from Guam Greyhound.
Snakes on Guam, yes. Tons, no. A big deal was made about the snakes because they are not indigenous and they ate all the birds. It’s pretty minor now, some birds are back, some smuggled in to “repopulate,” yet still an issue.
I don’t know what the opinion is on the Chinese threat, but most importantly we also pay alot of attention to what is going on in the P.I. in regards to islamic terrorist activity. A US military presence here is more likley because of that.
geckomon on January 16, 2008 at 12:46 PM
For some reason I’d be surprised if Hot Air makes it through the Great Firewall.
Blacklake on January 16, 2008 at 12:46 PM
The US Navy has more or less been preparing itself for a tactical war with China since WWII. Our entire naval doctrine is built around big boat/open sea maneuver for example. The thing that bothers me is that our Navy is technically superior to anything in the world, but we just don’t have a reasonable answer to swarm tactics and small boat attacks. Hubris remains our greatest weakness.
blankminde on January 16, 2008 at 12:46 PM
The may be moving away from communism, but they’re still dictatorial (not a perfect word, maybe authoritarian), and as such, they need the people focused on external causes for internal problems, otherwise the people force a change in leadership. This will lead to belligerent stances against us. We hope the economic freedom leads to political freedom, then the need for confrontation evaporates.
As for beating us at our own game, we gave away the important stuff a decade ago and we aren’t getting it back any time soon. Giving them permanent most favored nation trading status and WTO membership without forcing them to float the Yuan was beyond stupid. Couldn’t have had anything to do with campaign contributions to Slick Willie could it? I don’t like conspiracy theories but, man, that whole thing stinks.
trubble on January 16, 2008 at 12:46 PM
I think that everything being said on this board about China’s mindset towards us is correct. The question becomes, how do we deal with it?
I say this a lot, and I almost always eventually get to this same point, but I think we need to start somewhere and I suggest oil. Energy Independance does a lot to improve our situation not only in the middle east, but with players like Russia and China as well. We buy oil from Russia — giving them power, and we compete for oil with China causing animosity. This would all be going better if we were putting that money into our own pockets instead. Just my $0.02.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 12:54 PM
OK, good. Believe me, I see far too many people out there that really do believe the Russians, Chinese and Saudis are our BFFs, and that Bush is ruining our relationship with these great, peace-loving, economic and strategic partners, who are only trying to help us realize that Israel (the JOOO state) is our real enemy.
Virus-X on January 16, 2008 at 12:56 PM
These events are common and often as seems here accidental. Likely the group commander saw it as a good excuse to shake out a crew disgruntled by the canceled Turkey Day in Hong Kong.
Turkey Day in Hong Kong is a semi-annual tradition for the Yokosuka group. Family and friends fly in for a week of liberty. Typhoons have canceled the holiday but never harbor clearance.
Transiting near Taiwan is often as not to bring a challenge from the ROCs. They’re good at it. After the embarassment a 3 star sends a bs BZ with the caution, “No media attention anticipated or desired.”
i b squidly on January 16, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Sorry, I must have missed it. What does any of this have to do with Britney?
ronsfi on January 16, 2008 at 1:01 PM
Exactly. Thank you.
Wise Golden on January 16, 2008 at 1:02 PM
I know, I was just wondering where it was.
Frozen Tex on January 16, 2008 at 1:04 PM
We had quite a discussion of Naval tactics over on MM last week. There was some information there about “Littoral Combatants” to fight the surge of “mosquitoes.” Check here
As long as I can remember, every one of our battle groups has been shadowed by somebody somewhere. In the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, it was TU-95 Bears and Russian submarines. The new Russia still tracks us, but more via satellite than by shadowing us, although the old-fashioned shadowing takes place as a matter of course.
cpodug on January 16, 2008 at 1:04 PM
That was really good! Bravo!
TheBigOldDog on January 16, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Why are diesels harder to detect when they have to surface to run their engines to charge their batteries while nuclear subs never have to surface nor run noisy engines?
TheBigOldDog on January 16, 2008 at 1:11 PM
You couldn’t pay me to be on one of those floating coffins in the missile age.
In the modern era, a war between any two major naval powers would be a blood bath with no winners.
mylegsareswollen on January 16, 2008 at 1:14 PM
I’m not sure why we’re supposed to be wringing our hands over this. Seems like this is a good sign; we’re in the right places with the right stuff and almost no one messes with us and our guys are professional enough not to overreact and do stupid things.
That said, it would have been fine with me if we had destroyed the Iranian speedboats…
Jaibones on January 16, 2008 at 1:15 PM
So then what’s the problem then? What’s the war? Economic?
TheBigOldDog on January 16, 2008 at 1:17 PM
More accurately:
Squid — Navy
Bubblehead — Submariner
SunSword on January 16, 2008 at 1:18 PM
Why are diesels harder to detect when they have to surface to run their engines to charge their batteries while nuclear subs never have to surface nor run noisy engines?
TheBigOldDog on January 16, 2008 at 1:11 PM
BLUF or Bottom Line Up Front: Less moving parts = Less vibration/noise
When diesels subs are operating underwater they are running strait off the battery while nuke boats don’t have to surface they are being run by a steam turbine system.
Im just a regular black shoe SWO I’m sure there are some sub guys that can give a better UNCLAS explaination.
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 1:19 PM
Because when submerged and running on batteries, the diesel sub is quieter than a nuke, which must always have its reactor pumps operating.
Frozen Tex on January 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM
um excuse me that would be straight not strait.
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Even more accurately:
Bubblehead – Submariner
Skimmer – Surface Sailor
Airedale – Aviation Sailor
cpodug on January 16, 2008 at 1:22 PM
Vice Admiral Samuel Locklear, Commander of the U.S. Navy’s 3rd Fleet, discusses diesel vs. nuclear subs, active vs. passive sonar, and how the left is trying to thwart the Navy:
podcast
RushBaby on January 16, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Even more accurately:
Bubblehead – Submariner
Skimmer – Surface Sailor
Airedale – Aviation Sailor
cpodug on January 16, 2008 at 1:22 PM
froggy=SEAL
BTW
in my 15+ years never heard skimmer?more like black shoe or just shoe.
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 1:27 PM
China does NOT have inherent Islamophobia. Around 2% of its population is Muslim (Around 20 to 25 million people?) which although not a huge number, consists of not only Uyghurs and Turkmenis, but also Han Chinese…and has been established for centuries. From what I gather, the Chinese government is primarily concerned about jihadism linking up with Uyghur separatism. As far as interfering with Islamic worship just because they come down hard on other religions not fitting in with their communist ideology, I don’t think they interfere much, given what I’ve heard from Chinese friends. Given how closely China has drawn relations with Iran, Sudan, and other Muslim countries, I think they understand that if they prevent Muslim worship within their own borders to any significant degree, their international policy objectives get put into jeopardy.
Shirotayama on January 16, 2008 at 1:31 PM
I can add to that!
Bubblehead – Submariner
Skimmer – Surface Sailor
Airedale – Aviation Sailor
Nuke – Engineering sailor on nuclear powered ships/boats
Spook – Cryptology/codebreaking sailor
Deck Ape – Boatswains Mate, or any unskilled ship laborer
Knuckledragger – Machinist Mate
Twidget – Electronics Technician
Grape – Aviation gas tech
Penis Machinist (or Shortarm Mechanic) – Navy Medic
And as has been echoed above, this kind of thing does happen a lot more often than most people know. In one 6 month deployment we damn near rammed a Russian destroyer playing ring around the rosie off of Alaska and we got buzzed by an Iraqi MIG (that caused a big mess as we were having a huge BBQ on deck at the time) pre-GW1…also caught two different Russian subs shadowing us. All that in one 6 month cruise on Enterprise from 1989-90…and that’s just what we KNEW about.
And that’s not even going into the North Korean border/DMZ where bullets flying isn’t at all uncommon to this day. Just ask anyone who’s been stationed at one of those guard stations how scary THAT place actually is…
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Hey – TheGoblinKing – you’re fixin to let out ALL our secrets, aren’t you?
cpodug on January 16, 2008 at 1:42 PM
Oh, ET2(RO)/SW, USS Enterprise, 1989-1994, LPO 1 Reactor Plant
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 1:44 PM
you forgot
turd chasers
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 1:45 PM
cpodug,
Ha! Doubt it…I can’t remember all of the names for the other ratings…there were some good ones for the different airdales but I can’t remember them!
When/where u sail?
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 1:47 PM
Sounds vaguely familiar…I think…whats that?
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Actually retired as “sparks” (RMC/SW) in 84 after 22 years in the canoe club
cpodug on January 16, 2008 at 1:51 PM
turd chasers=hull techs (HT)
LCDR USNR here. Active 93-07 SWODAWG.
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 1:58 PM
cpodug,
I salute your superior saltiness!
/’sparks’…heh he…nice
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 1:59 PM
I was on the Kitty Hawk, I bet there was a Los Angeles class somewhere near. The Chines know better than mess around with a carrier group. I don’t think they have 40virgins waiting for them.
dave7997 on January 16, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Hand salute!
Actually was considering going back into the reserves myself…
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Maybe John Murtha was on to something when he talked about redeploying to Okinawa.
Scorched_Earth on January 16, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Skimmers are targets.
Big skimmers are big targets.
Naval aviation took over the nav a long time ago.
Not a balanced force.
Need smaller carriers.
-break-
dingbat on January 16, 2008 at 2:52 PM
TheGoblinKing on January 16, 2008 at 2:20 PM
Thanks the reserves are great! In fact I am mobilizing with a all volunteer reserve unit next month for deployment to the big sandy place. The call came out in the early fall for volunteers and if the unit couldn’t get enough personnel the NR would in-voluntarily activate the remainder to make up the ranks. Do you know how many people we had to in-vol activate? ZERO. We had almost 500 volunteers come forward and agree to be deployed to a war zone. This is expeditionary, in harms way, boots on the ground stuff, not aboard ships. I wanted to post this to that “Stop Loss” thread but couldn’t get to it. Kind of give perspective don’t it.
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 3:08 PM
hull snipes
pecker checkers
zeros
titless waves
ops puke
I do miss it.
-over-
dingbat on January 16, 2008 at 3:23 PM
staff wienies
GREENTURTLE on January 16, 2008 at 3:27 PM
What are we waiting for??
Regime change in China is actually a very plausible scenario, and in my opinion would work in not only china, but north korea and venezuela also!
HaraldHardrada on January 16, 2008 at 3:42 PM
Yeah, unless you’re Republicans. In that case, it’s give us that ol’ time business as usual, and please don’t rock our world with anything outside the mainstream.
We have no idea what rebellion looks like, at least so long as we keep looking to George, Mitt, Huck, John, Rudy, and Fred.
Drum on January 16, 2008 at 3:49 PM
LT USNR (IRR) here. Served from ‘01 to ‘07. Also a SWO.
Mercutio on January 16, 2008 at 4:06 PM
So now we’ll bring all the manufacturing back to the USA, and unless a Clinton gets elected, not give them any more weapon technology? Right??
Hening on January 16, 2008 at 5:31 PM
I am an American living in the PRC. HA makes it through the “Great Firewall.” Read it every day.
I think this incident is nothing more than two big dogs sniffing each other. They stand there, seemingly frozen for a time, then one figures out that the other one is dominant, and all is well.
Remember, “face” is important on both sides, but especially to the Chinese. They know they are weaker, but they want to show that they are there.
p40tiger on January 16, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Feed the beast and soon he will eat you.
build the wall on January 16, 2008 at 9:34 PM
The only confrontation was a Navy supply ship transferring a shipment of lead paint for the Chinese toy industry.
tazmebro on January 16, 2008 at 10:16 PM
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