NYT: Our war-crazed veterans are murdering people — at a rate not quite equal to the general population

posted at 9:09 pm on January 14, 2008 by Allahpundit

They neglected to mention the latter half of that headline, being a Narrative-killer and all, but oh well. Hey, know any vets? Then you best arm yourself and keep a wary eye on them at all times. They’re dangerous — almost as dangerous as every guy you know who hasn’t served in Iraq, in fact.

The article makes no attempt to produce a statistically valid comparison of homicide rates among vets to rates among the general population. Nor does it rely at all on Pentagon data about post-deployment incidents of violence among veterans. It basically just generalizes from this small sample (121 out of 1.7 million Iraq and Afghanistan vets, not including civilians and contractors) to conclude that today’s generation of veterans are coming home full of rage and ready to kill.

I’ve got a one-word verdict on this article and its research: bullshit.

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More likely to kill my murder than be mine. That’s heartening.

Vizzini on January 14, 2008 at 9:11 PM

Next week’s NY Times omsbudsmans article writes itself!

BJ* on January 14, 2008 at 9:12 PM

You’d think that even someone who wants to believe that “statistic” would see the obvious problem with it.

You’d think.

Bob's Kid on January 14, 2008 at 9:15 PM

it’s a sign of desperation. they must discredit the war effort in any way they can. they don’t care who gets defamed or slandered in the process – even if its those who deserve it the least.

locke on January 14, 2008 at 9:16 PM

I like your one-word verdict AP.

Griz on January 14, 2008 at 9:16 PM

That’s a quote, dude.

Allahpundit on January 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM

Despicable, and what I’ve come to expect from the Grey Harpy.

Techie on January 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM

I can see Rosie’s latest haiku now:

murder is evil
war makes people murder more
stop halliburton

Metro on January 14, 2008 at 9:18 PM

As a Vet(11C 3ID) I think this is great. the next time my crazy Liberal uncle cuts me off in mid-sentence to call me disillusioned for saying that we can win in Iraq, I will just plop this article down on his lap.

knat on January 14, 2008 at 9:22 PM

Yeah well I hope the rest join the police force. We have some serious gangsta competition and we just might be needing them.

sonnyspats1 on January 14, 2008 at 9:23 PM

That’s irresponsable journalism,this is nothing more
than an attempt to re-kindle the moonbats,code pink,
on bringing Irag back into the picture,another sideshow
to distract from the debates and election process!

And let’s not forget,the Liberals aren’t unified,
all the seperate interest groups are bitter for what
the Democrats haven’t accomplished,just another attempt
to fire up the Moonbats and the crazies!

canopfor on January 14, 2008 at 9:23 PM

One of the examples used by the old gray lady:

As Mr. Sepi started home, two gang members, both large and both armed, stepped out of the darkness. Mr. Sepi said in an interview that he spied the butt of a gun, heard a boom, saw a flash and “just snapped.”

There is for some (not to minimize or generalize) a difficult transition coming home from combat, but talk about a narrative. The liberal battle-cry, we support the troops, even as we slander them.

Spirit of 1776 on January 14, 2008 at 9:25 PM

Sure hope my girlfriend doesn’t read that article.

BadgerHawk on January 14, 2008 at 9:26 PM

I haven’t done the research, but I’m guessing the New York Times turns over top secret military intelligence to our enemies at a rate higher than the general population.

Exponentially higher, hence all the war-crazed veterans. It’s enough to make you want to kill someone.

fogw on January 14, 2008 at 9:28 PM

Let’s start with the obvious. Any of our military folks who spend time in a combat zone (be it Iraq, Afghanistan, or some other locale) is going to be affected by the experience- be it one tour or multiple tours. This is a normal human reaction and isn’t a mental “disorder.”

The rest of us need to support efforts at funding/easing the return of these warriors and defending them from the BS of the MSM that wants to turn their experience into the faux framework of the mentally disturbed VN vet stereotype that made Dan Rather’s pathetic career.

highhopes on January 14, 2008 at 9:30 PM

More people line their bird-cages or wrap fish in it than read that commie rag anyway.

bbz123 on January 14, 2008 at 9:35 PM

SECOND LOOK AT THE BEAUCHAMP WANNABES!!

mram on January 14, 2008 at 9:39 PM

The New York Times: All the Treason that’s fit to print.

BKennedy on January 14, 2008 at 9:40 PM

The author of this trash must have been a fan of the deleted Kos article KILLITARY

clghitis on January 14, 2008 at 9:44 PM

Allahpundit on January 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM

Shazam! Intel Dump. Sorry, wasn’t paying attention. I know, I know, a guy can get himself killed that way.

Griz on January 14, 2008 at 9:44 PM

After so much training to fight, they’ve only managed to murder 121 people? Well, it can’t be for lack of ability, so it must be for lack of trying.

Kralizec on January 14, 2008 at 9:48 PM

This Iraqi Freedom Vet thinks the DNC/NYT should change its Motto to “The American Al-Jeerza division of AJ. Excuse my spelling:)

Former U.S. Navy Hospital Corpsman

jaybird on January 14, 2008 at 9:53 PM

And im suppose to believe the traitors at the nycrimes I think not.

A New study proves the NYcrimes is working with AQ.

Yes I just made that up but hey if it’s good for the goose it’s good for the gander.

Mojack420 on January 14, 2008 at 9:55 PM

Decades of studies on the problems of Vietnam veterans have established links between combat trauma and higher rates of unemployment, homelessness, gun ownership, child abuse, domestic violence, substance abuse — and criminality.

Okay, so, “which one of these is not like the other”

and

“why does “criminality” have an “and” before it. Doesn’t domestic violence count for anything?

BillLalor on January 14, 2008 at 10:00 PM

From clghitis ‘s KILLITARY link…

It’s kind of weird how liberals love to talk about how much they hate violence, love to denigrate soldiers, love to insist on a peaceful solution to every problem…

…and yet also love to fantasize about assassinating politicians they dislike, fantastize about killing people who disagree with them, and fantasize about “taking it to the streets.”

Of course, they aren’t against violence, they just want to do it all themselves.

Posted by: Trimegistus at July 21, 2007 11:19 AM (I5SzJ)

Can’t put it better.

And from an article at GOPUSA… Paying in blood for Liberal Arrogance…

Liberals are not only ignoring the consequences of their previous decisions, but arrogantly proceeding down another reckless course that will only end in disaster. Just as “The New York Times” has decided there will be no negative consequences to their divulging America’s innermost secrets in how it fight the war on terror, simply because they have decided there will not be any, the international community is gambling that their failed methods of the past will somehow now work with Iran and North Korea. My question is, how many millions will have to die before the Liberals admit they were wrong?

Mazztek on January 14, 2008 at 10:03 PM

That’s a quote, dude.

Allahpundit on January 14, 2008 at 9:17 PM

More sparkling clarity. You guys are getting good at this.

Jaibones on January 14, 2008 at 10:16 PM

They keep trying to turn this into “another Vietnam” and they’re pulling the same tricks that worked back then. The only problem is that now we have alternative sources of information and their propaganda won’t work this time. Watch, they’ll try. They’ll claim that we lost the war, just as they did in the 70′s but it’s not gonna stick. We won, and no matter who you vote for, you should always root for our Troops.

Tony737 on January 14, 2008 at 10:17 PM

I haven’t done the research, but I’m guessing the New York Times turns over top secret military intelligence to our enemies at a rate higher than the general population.
….
fogw on January 14, 2008 at 9:28 PM

Right between the eyes. Oh, that hurt, as truth always does.

fred5678 on January 14, 2008 at 10:28 PM

From the link:

The New York Times found 121 cases in which veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan committed a killing in this country, or were charged with one, after their return from war.

How do these 121 murderers compare with the base rate of murderers in the population?

So, how many were ‘charged’ and not convicted? Must be some or there would be no mention of that category.

And how did all the 121 get put in the ‘murderers’ group in the second quote?

I’ve got a one-word verdict on this article and its research: bullshit.

Bingo!

News2Use on January 14, 2008 at 10:37 PM

I’ll wager that the average US military person tells the truth a much higher percentage of the time than the New York Times does.

After all the US military trains its people in the ways of honor, and rewards their selfless valor and loyalty, while the NYT…

I’m sorry, I can’t carry the comparison any further – nothing about the NYT is remotely comparable to the honor of the US military. Nothing.

drunyan8315 on January 14, 2008 at 10:52 PM

Come on….does anybody seriously believe anything coming out of the Times anymore? Haven’t they been proven to be liars enough that they don’t matter?

I know, the gullible will never believe their failures…that’s why it’s up to real conservatives to get the real news out there. Fox isn’t enough..we need more…

Hey Rush, how about buying the NYT and replacing the editors…

Fuzzball on January 14, 2008 at 10:54 PM

John Hinderaker at PowerLine also had a nice debunking of this story up on Sunday morning.

LagunaDave on January 14, 2008 at 11:02 PM

Keller needs to create lies and panic to sell
his stupid paper. It’s a tabloid fish wrapper and he’s
begining to smell a bit like the bait.

Texyank on January 14, 2008 at 11:14 PM

If one looks at the topics of Lizette Alvarez’ other articles, this one should come as no surprise. It’s apparent that she has nothing but a wholly disgusted view of the military. Is it jealousy? Could it be that her role in her profession is rendered so small in light of a war and the warriors who fight for America, its citizens and liberty? She’s pleading, “See, see, the noble profession of arms isn’t so noble. We “journalists” are the true noble figures. We bring you the truth.” While, yes, there is an inherent nobility in a truth-seeking free press (not to mention a necessity)I ask this of Ms. Deborah Sontag and Ms. Lizette Alvarez: Remember the words of Charles M. Province…
“It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.”
Do your job, and we’ll do ours. Reporting a partial truth is reporting a whole lie.

Send_Me on January 14, 2008 at 11:46 PM

I’ll wager that the average US military person tells the truth a much higher percentage of the time than the New York Times does.
drunyan8315 on January 14, 2008 at 10:52 PM

Now that’s just unfair! The NYT tells plenty of truths. Like U.S military secrets, the wiretapping thing…
It just seems to be a strange coincidence that everything they tell the truth about happens to help our enemies…funny that.

Grayson on January 14, 2008 at 11:56 PM

As the murder rate for this demographic, young military men, is 1/6th that of the general population, clearly the NYTimes is advocating both universal service, and universal deployment to Iraq, for all young men as a general crime prevention measure

Also, based upon this exhaustive NYTimes study of their own bias, in which they have demonstrated that stories exaggerating the violent tendencies of American Servicement are increasing in number, the NYTimes has proven… their own bias.

DANEgerus on January 15, 2008 at 12:18 AM

If used properly, empirical research is a wonderful way to discover what’s what. Unfortunately, and I speak as an academic, I’ve seen it misused over and over again. Even worse, I believe the misuse is increasing. People with strong beliefs either fail to notice obvious flaws (Hello, New York Times’ lack of diversity) or, even worse, intentionally design studies to get the results they seek.
The results of such practices are, of course, bad policies.

“I go where the wild goose goes,” sang Frankie Lane. And to be successful, we have to go not where our ideology is, but where the data goes. Otherwise, big trouble lies ahead.

Dr. Charles G. Waugh on January 15, 2008 at 12:56 AM

After so much training to fight, they’ve only managed to murder 121 people? Well, it can’t be for lack of ability, so it must be for lack of trying.

Kralizec on January 14, 2008 at 9:48 PM

Ever had your quota meter pegged?
After enough hard duty and a some unwind time anybody is ready to let it go in favor of the white picket fence.

Speakup on January 15, 2008 at 1:36 AM

A part of being a human is having urges/impulses to do certain things.. One of which is the capacity to kill animal and foe. When you take a testosterone crazy young male and indoctrinate him with mantras like “Blood makes the grass grow, KILL KILL KILL” it’s bound to be beyond certain individuals to turn that off. Not to mention adding the reenforcing experience of “gettin some”. I know because I’ve gone through this indoctrination and having to reassimilate into the GP was very ruff to say the least. I’m not saying that it’s okay to kill people willie-nilly but the impulse is a strong one in certain instances. I question the honesty of any man that denies having these impulses at one point in time. This is the very definition of how we define civilized.. The only reason the word civilized exists is to give explanation to the opposite of our innate instincts.

whiskeytango on January 15, 2008 at 5:26 AM

The Hurricane Katrina survivors beat the hell out of those numbers and they got no ‘props’ whatsoever !

DoctorDentons on January 15, 2008 at 6:18 AM

Counterknowledge.

flipflop on January 15, 2008 at 6:32 AM

The Hurricane Katrina survivors beat the hell out of those numbers and they got no ‘props’ whatsoever !

DoctorDentons on January 15, 2008 at 6:18 AM

you’re forgetting that the fugees were the victems. Not the people they victimized. Or at least that’s what I’m told.

whiskeytango on January 15, 2008 at 7:12 AM

I wonder how long it will be before the peoples republic of hollywood reads this piece of crap and starts the TV and movie propaganda organs going, where every vet coming back is robbing banks and taking hostages. Y’Know, like they did in the 70′s.

It sucks when someone won’t hire you, and they tell you it’s because they are afraid you’ll take hostages and kill people.

Better and more important stats to talk about are:

How many Veterans are homeless

How many previously homeless vets got school and a job (I know a group of guys that make this actually happen)

How many Veterans go to college, get a degree, start a family and participate in their community.

and so on..

Dog out.

dogsoldier on January 15, 2008 at 7:28 AM

I love the smell of vindication in the morning. Thanks Allah.

Fox was talking about this yesterday and the guy they had on was saying that if you actually look at population rather than a selective group that the NYtimes’ facts are just slanderous. Veterans were actually significantly less likely to kill someone in an automobile accident, and basically even with the rest of the nation in murder (1 per 1000). Methinks they hate our military?

blankminde on January 15, 2008 at 7:56 AM

I wonder if there is any city in the United States that has a population of 1.7 million and has had only 121 murders over the past 5 years.

BohicaTwentyTwo on January 15, 2008 at 8:35 AM

As a Vietnam Viet with 3 years in Vietnam and returning home to spittle, ‘Baby Killer’ slur and other’s. Rest assured the hammer was cocked. But being properly trained the trigger was not pulled-however, there is a small percentage that snapped and they are used by the MSM to characterize everyone in the military since.

The MSM does not want to face the reality that they do not know who the actual enemy is. Our enemy has no uniform, (thus anyone with press credentials could be the enemy posing as a representative of the MSM) there are no clear battle lines, their ROE (rules of engagement) is KILL KILL KILL and if required be KILLED.

Our military is fighting to keep as many as possible from infiltrating our country to cause more death and destruction. But they loose that battle when liberals let them in long enough to vote-but forget to ask them to leave.

The phrase, “a liberal is a conservative that has not been mugged yet” is accurate. How many acts, such as 9/11, is it going to take to mug enough cowering liberals to return this country to its true form-a representative republic .

MSGTAS on January 15, 2008 at 9:08 AM

Didn’t you all know that it’s a natural job progression to leave the armed forces and join a gang. It’s a easy transition from hanging out on an LP/OP lobbing bullets to a street corner selling crack. /s/

God I loath liberals and their willingness to lie about and/or distort facts.

MSG(R), USA
18Z50W8

SPIFF1669 on January 15, 2008 at 9:09 AM

I can see Rosie’s latest haiku now:

murder is evil
war makes people murder more
stop halliburton

Metro on January 14, 2008 at 9:18 PM

battle flames in eyes
strangled puppy-dog
leaf in distance falls

Tzetzes on January 15, 2008 at 9:43 AM

Classic case of starting with the answer to your research question, THEN finding the data to support it. This is exactly what you’re not supposed to do.

——–
Not-yet-retired, 22-year veteran of Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans, Southern Watch and the Cold War.

mjtyson on January 15, 2008 at 11:29 AM

NYT seems to be losing credibility and going out of business at a rate not quite equal to the general population, too.

wildweasel on January 15, 2008 at 11:33 AM

*flashback*
It’s 1971 again!

erm….

time to end the flashback….

someone?

anyone?

Bueller?

Claire on January 15, 2008 at 11:37 AM

I’ve got a one-word verdict on this article and its research: bullshit.

haha, classic.
But seriously, my grandfather was in Vietnam, and he had to deal with this sh*t too. Sure there are some psychos, but are most the soldiers like that, no.

MyImamToldMeToDoIt on January 15, 2008 at 2:34 PM

Damn the truth, full speed ahead with the lie! Sure the stats are phony, but the story is accurate nonetheless, right?

Alert the media to start cranking out ten years of dramas about wacked out combat vets refighting Fallujah on the streets of Everytown, USA, just like after Vietnam. Lies repeated often enough become the truth.

Tantor on January 15, 2008 at 4:39 PM