Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 11, “Hud”

posted at 8:00 am on January 13, 2008 by Robert Spencer

Sura 11, “Hud,” dates (like sura 10) from late in the Meccan period, the first part of Muhammad’s prophetic career. Its name comes from verses 50-60, which tell the story of the prophet Hud, who was according to Islamic tradition sent to the ‘Ad people of Arabia around 2400 BC. Sura 11 repeats in stronger terms the warnings of sura 10 concerning Allah’s judgment. That, according to a hadith, caused Muhammad anxiety. Once one of his leading followers, Abu Bakr, said to him, “O Messenger of Allah, verily your hair has turned gray.” Muhammad replied that Sura 11, along with suras 56, 77, 78, and 81, all of which deal with judgment day, “have turned my hair gray.”

This hair-graying sura begins (verses 1-24) with a recapitulation of many themes touched on in sura 10, including the wisdom of the Qur’an itself (v. 1). Mujahid, Qatadah, and Ibn Jarir, among others, explained this verse as meaning that the Qur’an is “perfect in its wording, detailed in its meaning. Thus, it is complete in its form and its meaning.” For, says Ibn Kathir, “this Qur’an descended, perfect and detailed, with the purpose of Allah’s worship alone, without any partners.” The Qur’an is also inimitable: the challenge to produce a sura like it is repeated in v. 13. Stressed: the necessity to worship only Allah (v. 2) and the dependence of all creatures upon him (v. 6); the worthlessness of idols (v. 14); the deceptive glamour of this life (v. 15); the dreadful punishment (vv. 16, 22) that awaits those who “invent a lie against Allah” (v. 18), and the delightful gardens that await the blessed (v. 23).

Verse 5 contains a strange statement: “At the very moment when they cover themselves with their clothing, Allah knows that which they keep hidden and that which they proclaim.” What would covering themselves with clothing have to do with Allah knowing them? Well, it appears that some people wore clothes to conceal themselves from Allah, particularly during intimate moments: Ibn Abbas explains that “there were people who used to be shy to remove their clothes while answering the call of nature in an open space and thus be naked exposed to the sky. They were also ashamed of having sexual relations with their women due to fear of being exposed towards the sky. Thus, this was revealed concerning them.”

Then follow the stories of various prophets, all revolving around their rejection by perverse and obstinate unbelievers. Verses 25-49 tell the story of Noah and the ark, with a significant difference from the Biblical story. In Genesis 6-9, Noah has nothing to do with the unbelievers at all; God tells him, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth” (Genesis 6:13), and tells him to build the ark, but he doesn’t tell him to go warn the people about the flood. But in the Qur’an, Noah comes to his people with a “clear warning” (v. 25) that they should “serve none but Allah” (v. 26). So the corruption and violence of which the people are guilty in the Biblical account in the Qur’an become simply idolatry, or more precisely, shirk, the association of partners with Allah.

Of course, Muhammad came to his people with a clear warning (14:52) that they should serve none but Allah (3:64), and so in this account Noah is kind of a proto-Muhammad, preaching a message identical to his. And that is, indeed, how Islam views all the Biblical prophets. They, like Muhammad, taught Islam – it was their followers who corrupted their teachings to create modern Judaism and Christianity. Even the reception Noah receives resembles how the pagan Quraysh received Muhammad. The unbelievers tell him he is just a man and charge him and his followers with lying (v. 27), and even claim he is forging the messages he claims are from Allah (v. 35). Noah counters by saying that it won’t matter what he says to them if Allah has determined to lead them astray (v. 34). This, of course, almost exactly replicates Muhammad’s experience: Allah tells him to tell the unbelievers that he is just a man (18:110); they charge him with lying (42:24) and with forging the Qur’an (v. 13); and of course Muhammad also teaches that if Allah wills to lead someone astray, no one can guide him (7:186).

Noah is, then, essentially a stand-in for Muhammad. Indirectly emphasized are the identity of the messages of all the prophets, and the obstinacy of the unbelievers before the manifest truth of Allah. One of those unbelievers is Noah’s son, who declines to enter the ark and instead says, “I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water” (v. 43). His son dies in flood, and Noah reminds Allah of his promise to save his family (which came in v. 40): “O my Lord! Surely my son is of my family!” (v. 45). But Allah tells him, “O Noah! He is not of thy family: for his conduct is unrighteous” (v. 46). Belief and unbelief in Islam supersede even family ties. Ibn Kathir explains: “Thus, for his son, it had already been decreed that he would be drowned due to his disbelief and his opposition to his father.”

The story of Hud (verses 50-60) follows a roughly similar pattern. He tells the people of ‘Ad to repent (v. 52), but they complain that he has brought them no clear sign (v. 53), and are destroyed – although Hud and his people are saved (v. 58). Verses 61-68 repeat the same pattern in telling the story of Salih, who was sent sometime after Noah’s time to the Thamud people, who lived in northern Arabia. Allah gives them a sign of his power: the “she-camel of Allah is a symbol to you” (v. 64) – which according to some traditions emerged miraculously from a mountain. The Thamud are told not to harm it, but they do anyway (v. 65) and are destroyed (v. 67), except for Salih and the believers (v. 66).

Verses 69-83 retell the Biblical story of Abraham, Sarah and Lot, culminating in the destruction of an unnamed Sodom and Gomorrah (v. 82) with a strong hint of an unnamed crime of sodomy (v. 79). Verses 83-95 tell the story of Shu’aib, prophet to the Midianites, in language very similar, and with an identical outcome, to the story of Hud.

Then verses 96-123 recapitulate many themes of the entire sura, with passing reference to Moses and Pharaoh (vv. 96-98). Both those who reject Allah and those who accept him will face a fearsome judgment, leading to hellfire for the unbelievers and Paradise for the believers (vv. 103-108). Allah gave Moses the Torah, but there are disputes about it (v. 110), which Allah would have already settled except that he has decided to “delay His chastisement from your nation,” according to the Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs. The believers should pray and be steadfast (vv. 114-115), for all this is Allah’s will: “If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute” (v. 118). Yet believers must trust in him (v. 123).

Next week: Sura 12, “Joseph”: signs and symbols for seekers after truth.

(Here you can find links to all the earlier “Blogging the Qur’an” segments. Here is a good Arabic/English Qur’an, here are two popular Muslim translations, those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, along with a third by M. H. Shakir. Here is another popular translation, that of Muhammad Asad. And here is an omnibus of ten Qur’an translations.)

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Robert, I was just wondering (since you are intimately aquainted with the Koran), what “rough percentage” of the entire text is devoted to (1) making believers able to identify non-believers, and (2) despise them?

I can’t seem to get three pages without reading something about how Muslims should fear and detest non-Muslims. The constant repitition grates on my nerves.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 8:57 AM

The constant repitition grates on my nerves.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 8:57 AM

Repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.

flipflop on January 13, 2008 at 9:59 AM

Repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.

flipflop on January 13, 2008 at 9:59 AM

It’s not just repetition, either. When I was teaching English as a Foreign Language (in Saudi Arabia), another aspect of ideological indoctrination became clear to me.

One of many very effective methods of enabling a student to internalize lexical and grammatical structures is called TPR, or Total Physical Response. For example, if while speaking the phrase “I am eating,” the student mimes the physical action of placing a spoon to their mouth, or “I am walking,” the student is pacing the room, the connection between the verbal expression and its context becomes much more effectively ingrained.

Now look at a group of people who go through a very elaborate ritual (Wudu, then Salah), each with its precise sequence of events and physical behaviors, five times a day, every day. You’re looking at one of the strongest forms of internalization in the world.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 10:10 AM

I had wondered how Mohammad would get around the fact that Judaism and Christianity both predate Islam.

Buzzy on January 13, 2008 at 10:27 AM

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 10:10 AM

It could have been worse…according to the Night Journey story, it could have been 50 times a day.

I had wondered how Mohammad would get around the fact that Judaism and Christianity both predate Islam.

Buzzy on January 13, 2008 at 10:27 AM

It gets even better. According to this, Adam and Eve were the first Muslims.

flipflop on January 13, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Thanks, Robert.

and of course Muhammad also teaches that if Allah wills to lead someone astray, no one can guide him

Convenient.

Spirit of 1776 on January 13, 2008 at 10:40 AM

Thanks Robert.

TheBigOldDog on January 13, 2008 at 10:54 AM

This hair-graying sura begins (verses 1-24) with a recapitulation of many themes touched on in sura 10, including the wisdom of the Qur’an itself

Repeat a lie often enough, and it becomes the truth.

flipflop on January 13, 2008 at 9:59 AM

It’s a bit odd that a devine, perfect book would waste so much time talking itself up. Shouldn’t its perfection be obvious?

forest on January 13, 2008 at 11:09 AM

Religions are to people, what viruses are to computers. Islam is the most virulent of these viruses.

JayHaw Phrenzie on January 13, 2008 at 11:09 AM

Now look at a group of people who go through a very elaborate ritual (Wudu, then Salah), each with its precise sequence of events and physical behaviors, five times a day, every day. You’re looking at one of the strongest forms of internalization in the world.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 10:10 AM

Chilling. No wonder there is such strong resistance to Western influence by Muslim leaders. The younger folks might be tempted to skip the time consuming rituals and seek out the “glamour of this life.”

RushBaby on January 13, 2008 at 11:29 AM

and of course Muhammad also teaches that if Allah wills to lead someone astray, no one can guide him

Convenient.

Muhammad was a Calvinist

ConstantSorrow on January 13, 2008 at 11:33 AM

Religions are to people, what viruses are to computers. Islam is the most virulent of these viruses.

Is the viruses thing necessary? Just because you don’t have a religion you hold dear doesn’t mean you have to blanket denigrate all that do.

Back to topic – There seems to be no assurance of salvation with anyone in the Koran. Just judgement. Over and over again, judgement. And maybe you get in good with Allah, but maybe not. It must be difficult to know if your actions are good enough for admittance to Paradise when you’re Muslim. And a certain amount of pleasure taken when people are destroyed by Allah, even by believers like the Koran’s version of Moses and Noah. Interesting.

mjk on January 13, 2008 at 11:45 AM

Islam is not a religion, it is a death cult.

It deserves no respect whatsoever.

Dave R. on January 13, 2008 at 11:53 AM

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 10:10 AM

you must speak arabic, since you are an ENG. teacher, right? what is your kitaab of choice? thanks for the comment about TPR as well. i am having a hard time with vocab and that seems like a sweet way to remember stuff.

Dave R. on January 13, 2008 at 11:53 AM

bout 7 yrs ago, in my freshman yr. of HS, my global studies teacher told me Islam was a copy cat of Christianity and Islam. the more I read the Qur’an, the more I am so thankful for him telling me that.

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 12:17 PM

correction: a violent copy cat***

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Phrenzie,
I don’t think anyone wants to get back into the religion=virus versus the “oh yeah? what about the godless commie mass murderers?” debacle. I think it’s safe to say that in human experience, we are our own worst enemy. Not necessarily a religion or ideology. For your consideration…

ConstantSorrow on January 13, 2008 at 12:22 PM

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 12:17 PM

I tried actually reading the Qur’an once. About as interesting a reading the telephone directory.

I read Mr. Spencer’s excellent book The P.I.G. (I love that) Guide to Islam instead. It made far more sense and was quite interesting.

Have since purchased several copies and loaned them out to friends. I have yet to be able to get any of them back, as they keep getting passed around. LOL.

Dave R. on January 13, 2008 at 12:26 PM

Back to topic – There seems to be no assurance of salvation with anyone in the Koran. Just judgement. Over and over again, judgement. And maybe you get in good with Allah, but maybe not. It must be difficult to know if your actions are good enough for admittance to Paradise when you’re Muslim. And a certain amount of pleasure taken when people are destroyed by Allah, even by believers like the Koran’s version of Moses and Noah. Interesting.

mjk on January 13, 2008 at 11:45 AM

Salvation is very easy for a Muslim. There are very few circumstances under which a Muslim can die and not make it into Paradise. Even if a Muslim dies from the flu, they’re assured a place.

Judgment is left up to God. Since only God can judge, that absolves all Muslims from making any judgments on their own. They are not allowed to question anything another Muslim does, unless it is blasphemous or an insult to Islam, and those types of judgments are left to each person to decide. If a Muslims feels insulted, it is very easy for that personal insult to be seen in the context of an insult to Islam itself. Islam is a very personal religion.

Jaynie59 on January 13, 2008 at 1:26 PM

I’m only entitled to lurk on the topic of the Quran, due to lack of knowledge, but found this article contains interesting items related to topic.

The revived Quran venture plays into a very modern debate: how to reconcile Islam with the modern world? Academic quarrying of the Quran has produced bold theories, bitter feuds and even claims of an Islamic Reformation in the making. Applying Western critical methods to Islam’s holiest text is a sensitive test of the Muslim community’s readiness to both accommodate and absorb thinking outside its own traditions.

A scholar in northern Germany writes under the pseudonym of Christoph Luxenberg because, he says, his controversial views on the Quran risk provoking Muslims. He claims that chunks of it were written not in Arabic but in another ancient language, Syriac. The “virgins” promised by the Quran to Islamic martyrs, he asserts, are in fact only “grapes”.

Entelechy on January 13, 2008 at 1:36 PM

Sour ones at that.

Coronagold on January 13, 2008 at 2:21 PM

Islam is not a religion, it is a death cult.
Dave R. on January 13, 2008 at 11:53 AM

I had to write a paper on cults, and chose Islam. I was told that Islam was a world religion and not a cult, based on the numbers and the presence of followers throughout all the countries in the world. The numbers must be the defining factors since it fits all the other specs very nicely.

She camel….that’s a ‘bow chica wow-wow’ after a few lonely nights in the desert.

Hening on January 13, 2008 at 3:13 PM

you must speak arabic, since you are an ENG. teacher, right?

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 12:17 PM

I must speak Arabic because I was an English teacher? If I were a French teacher, would I speak Chinese?

I speak very little Arabic, owing to two things: (1) Saudi Arabia is a lousy place to learn Arabic (Jordan has numerous excellent intensive programs) because in Saudi, if you show an interest in learning Arabic, it is interpreted as an interest to convert to Islam. By the second lesson, they have you reciting the declaration of faith in Islam. No. Thank. You! (2) I originally brought over a $200 Foreign Service tape program in Arabic, but gave up after 3 months. I saw little point in being lied to in two languages.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 4:29 PM

{The Koran is] About as interesting a reading the telephone directory.

Dave R. on January 13, 2008 at 12:26 PM

I agree. You’ll like this. Prior to landing in Muskat (I believe), General Patton read the Koran in order to get a better feel for the natives. When asked by a staff member how he felt about the Koran, he described it as “The most G0ddamned boring book I ever read.”

My car insurance policy reads like a Frederick Forsyth thriller compared to the Koran. And, yes, Islam is a death cult. The only thing they’re missing is a meteor with a spaceship behind it and lots of Nikes.

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 4:34 PM

the jackal:

Robert, I was just wondering (since you are intimately aquainted with the Koran), what “rough percentage” of the entire text is devoted to (1) making believers able to identify non-believers, and (2) despise them?

I haven’t ever done that kind of statistical analysis, so the best answer I can give to your question is, A lot.

Bill Warner, however, has done that kind of analysis. You might find this interesting:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B6AA49466-2575-491F-B712-CEA90FCCCD0D%7D

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 5:08 PM

If that link doesn’t work, look for:

The Study of Political Islam
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, February 05, 2007

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 5:09 PM

I’ve said it before: I find these meccan passages easier to swallow than the vociferous medina ones. Mohammed’s gray hair illustrates at least some measure of empathy – and human agency when detailing the terrible wrath of a supreme being. It appears that stance went horribly wrong once in medina.

But, in all fairness to the Noah of Genesis, in the new testament, 2 Peter 2:5, refers to Noah as a ‘preacher of righteousness’, meaning he was talking to someone about something.

Plus, if the old man next door starts building a gy-normous boat in his front yard far from water in a time when it had never rained before, I bet someone, at sometime, asked the old coot “what for?”, if only to pronounce him a kook.

A question for you, Robert Spencer: sura 11: 118 says, “If thy Lord had so willed, He could have made mankind one people: but they will not cease to dispute.”

That brought to mind Genesis 11: the image a the world before babel, and the corporate desire of humankind to exalt itself to heaven via a unified mindset and common language before the Lord put an end to all that nonsense.

Is there a story in the koran about anything like babel?

Thanks in advance and keep up the good work!

locomotivebreath1901 on January 13, 2008 at 5:12 PM

Mr. Spencer,
Today in 11:4 “It states Unto God you must return; and He has the power to will anything.”
This reminded me of one of the earlier readings:
3: 27
“Thou makest the night grow longer by shortening the day, and Thou makest the day grow longer by shortening the night. And Thou bringest forth the living out of that which is dead, and Thou bringest forth the dead out of that which is alive. And Thou grantest sustenance unto whom `Thou willest, beyond all reckoning.”

Are these examples of why there seems to be a lack of scientific curiosity in the Islamic World? I would say that it was left to the West to discover that the Earth was inclined 23 ½ degrees on its axis and that combined with the annual path around the sun causes the days to grow shorter and the reverse. But even, by our standards, a primitive society, yet unencumbered by such rigidity as the Qur’an, the Mayans in Central America were able to figure this out as well. Or is the verse just a metaphor attributing to God for why things are the way that they are?

Thank you very much for doing this I am learning a lot.

dentalque on January 13, 2008 at 5:23 PM

Mr Spencer, verses 12-14 seem to make a challenge of faith for the infidel:

Then, it may be that you will give up part of what is revealed to you and your breast will become straitened by it because they say: Why has not a treasure been sent down upon him or an angel come with him? You are only a warner; and Allah is custodian over all things.

Or, do they say: He has forged it. Say: Then bring ten forged chapters like it and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful.

But if they do not answer you, then know that it is revealed by Allah’s knowledge and that there is no god but He; will you then submit?

Can you elaborate on this portion of Sura 11? I am curious to know what this is really addressing.

HeIsSailing on January 13, 2008 at 5:42 PM

I must speak Arabic because I was an English teacher? If I were a French teacher, would I speak Chinese?

you might speak chinese if youre teaching french in a CHINESE SPEAKING nation.

and you might speak arabic if youre teaching english in an ARABIC SPEAKING nation.

i hope that makes some sense.

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 5:44 PM

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B6AA49466-2575-491F-B712-CEA90FCCCD0D%7D

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 5:08 PM

Holy cow! Now that was something I had never read before! VERY interesting.

Many thanks for the lead!!!

thejackal on January 13, 2008 at 5:45 PM

I don’t see much hope for Islam ever being reformed. I.d.k. how you reconcile changing the literal word of God.

blatantblue on January 13, 2008 at 5:52 PM

Robert Spencer says:

Noah is, then, essentially a stand-in for Muhammad.

Does the story about Noah’s drowning son also parallel Muhammad? Are there any stories or legends regarding apostacy in Muhammad’s family or clan?

HeIsSailing on January 13, 2008 at 5:57 PM

V. 64-65:

O my people! This is the camel of Allah, a token unto you, so suffer her to feed in Allah’s earth, and touch her not with harm lest a near torment seize you.

But they hamstrung her, and then he said: Enjoy life in your dwelling-place three days! This is a threat that will not be belied.

Whenever I see these kinds of non-sequitors, whether in the Quran or the Bible, I can’t help but think there is a more extensive story or tradition lurking below the surface. Sometimes, these ancient traditions are lost forever, and we can only piece together whatever scraps we can.

Mr Spencer, any idea what exactly this ‘she-camel’ from Allah is? My first thought is a common root with the scapegoat ritual, but this may be a false cognate of sorts. Any idea what this is all about?

HeIsSailing on January 13, 2008 at 6:05 PM

locomotivebreath1901:

Is there a story in the koran about anything like babel?

Sort of. See 28:38 and 40:36-37. It’s a conflation of the story of Pharaoh and Moses, the Book of Esther, and the story of the Tower of Babel. Sort of.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 6:38 PM

Does the story about Noah’s drowning son also parallel Muhammad? Are there any stories or legends regarding apostacy in Muhammad’s family or clan?

HeIsSailing on January 13, 2008 at 5:57 PM

The son, I believe, is a metaphor for non-believers. As for the second question, he attacked his own clan.
These are the basis for the belief that your ties to Islam are stronger than your ties to family. This is why you see such things as “honor killings” among Muslums.
Mr. S correct me if I am wrong.

dentalque on January 13, 2008 at 6:45 PM

dentalque,

Are these examples of why there seems to be a lack of scientific curiosity in the Islamic World? I would say that it was left to the West to discover that the Earth was inclined 23 ½ degrees on its axis and that combined with the annual path around the sun causes the days to grow shorter and the reverse. But even, by our standards, a primitive society, yet unencumbered by such rigidity as the Qur’an, the Mayans in Central America were able to figure this out as well. Or is the verse just a metaphor attributing to God for why things are the way that they are?

Your question may best be answered by a story I recall from an American who taught in Pakistan for awhile. He explained to his students that earthquakes were caused by tectonic shifts, or whatever it is, and they countered, No, you’re quite wrong, earthquakes are caused by the will of Allah. So in other words, yes, there is a certain dogmatic rigidity that I believe can be fed by the idea of the absolute sovereignty of Allah and the perfection of the Qur’an — one can begin to assume that no other book and no other knowledge is needed.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 6:46 PM

HeIsSailing,

Can you elaborate on this portion of Sura 11? I am curious to know what this is really addressing.

This is the Qur’anic challenge. This is the foremost miraculous claim in Islam: the idea that the Qur’an is perfect and inimitable, and that the unbelievers will not be able to produce anything like it. This challenge also appears in sura 10 and, if my memory serves me right, sura 2.

See http://www.suralikeit.com for attempts to take up the challenge. But ultimately, of course, it is a subjective and impossible challenge: the true believer will never acknowledge that anything produced by an unbeliever, no matter how profound and faithful to Qur’anic style, is “like” the Qur’an.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 6:50 PM

HeIsSailing:

Does the story about Noah’s drowning son also parallel Muhammad? Are there any stories or legends regarding apostacy in Muhammad’s family or clan?

I didn’t mean that Noah is identical to Muhammad in every detail. I meant that the Qur’an tells the story of Noah in such a way as to make it parallel Muhammad’s experiences: he has the absolute truth and the warning of fearful punishment, and the unbelievers scoff — but their ruin is certain.

Anyway, Muhammad’s only son died in infancy. There is no parallel to that part of this story of Noah.

And yes, dentalque is right, above.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 6:59 PM

Thanks.

I have been amazed that such a primitive (by our standards)culture as the Mayans (they did not have horses or the wheel)in Mexico were able to figure out such amazing things. While other cultures, such as the Arabians, never did.

dentalque on January 13, 2008 at 7:04 PM

Robert Spencer:

But ultimately, of course, it is a subjective and impossible challenge…

Exactly! That is no challenge at all. What criteria for perfection is being used? And who is doing the judging? For instance, in my humble opinion, Isaac Newton’s Principia Mathematica is perhaps the most perfect and influential book ever written (including the ol’ Bible). Why would this book not qualify?

Don’t answer – rhetorical question.

HeIsSailing on January 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM

HeIsSailing:

Re the she-camel, the traditional Islamic story is that the unbelievers challenged the prophet Salih to perform a specific miracle: make a she-camel, 10 months pregnant appear miraculously from the rocks.

Allah did this, splitting open a rock, from which the camel came forth. Some stories say that this camel produced enough milk for the entire people of Thamud. So many of the people came to believe in Allah. But the hardened unbelievers began plotting to kill the camel. Salih heard about it, and issued the warning in 11:64. But they killed the camel anyway, and Thamud was subsequently destroyed by Allah.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 7:08 PM

Thanks for the she-camel update. Seriously. I’ve long wondered what that was all about. Like so many stories in the Quran and ahadith, you get confusing fragments.

Beagle on January 13, 2008 at 10:13 PM

Beagle & others

Those who want a more readable version of some of these Quranic fairy tales can go here, and enjoy

infidelpride on January 13, 2008 at 10:29 PM

For this particular story on Thamud, go here

infidelpride on January 13, 2008 at 10:31 PM

Entelechy on January 13, 2008 at 1:36 PM

I just read that article today Entel.

And I was wondering what Robert thinks of it. Eh Robert? The revived Quran venture? The films that Anton Spitaler had hidden and claimed lost…? Do you think they could change the way Muslims interpret their religion? Could it cause a revolution in Islam and change it in a good way? What do you think about that whole thing?

4shoes on January 13, 2008 at 10:32 PM

And that is, indeed, how Islam views all the Biblical prophets. They, like Muhammad, taught Islam – it was their followers who corrupted their teachings to create modern Judaism and Christianity.

Here’s one for the Muslim “scholars” to chew on.

Is Jesus was a Muslim……

……Why then, do we not see “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” anywhere in Islam?

Cuz, you know, Islam is so kind and forgiving towards females, after all…

As always, Mr. Spencer, I cannot thank you enough for what you do. Your courage is a bright beacon of light in a depressing sea of Western ideological cowardice.

Hawkins1701 on January 14, 2008 at 3:34 AM

Mr. Spencer, I am a new commentor here at HotAir. I want to first express my appreciation for your courage and all you do to shed light on this very dark religion.

I have a general question in reference to the Islamic perception of Heaven and Hell: Does Islam teach, as the Bible does, that there are “waiting places” (Paradise/Tartaros) or places where souls are reserved until judgement; or do they teach that the soul goes directly to its reward (Heaven/Hell)? If so, what are these waiting places called?

labrat on January 14, 2008 at 5:37 AM

4shoes:

And I was wondering what Robert thinks of it. Eh Robert? The revived Quran venture? The films that Anton Spitaler had hidden and claimed lost…? Do you think they could change the way Muslims interpret their religion? Could it cause a revolution in Islam and change it in a good way? What do you think about that whole thing?

It’s all fascinating. I’d love to see what they contain. Ibn Warraq has done a lot of great work on alternate Qur’an texts and readings, and has a book coming out about it soon. Do I think it will cause a major change in Islam — if a drastically different version of the Qur’an appears? Almost certainly not. Because it will just be denounced as a Zionist forgery etc.

Robert Spencer on January 14, 2008 at 7:25 AM

Hawkins1701:

Is Jesus was a Muslim……

……Why then, do we not see “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” anywhere in Islam?

A Muslim who believes that Allah commands stoning would consider this an example of how the Christians have corrupted the actual message of Jesus, because they would refuse to believe the idea that Jesus’ message could contradict Muhammad’s.

Robert Spencer on January 14, 2008 at 7:28 AM

labrat:

I have a general question in reference to the Islamic perception of Heaven and Hell: Does Islam teach, as the Bible does, that there are “waiting places” (Paradise/Tartaros) or places where souls are reserved until judgement; or do they teach that the soul goes directly to its reward (Heaven/Hell)? If so, what are these waiting places called?

After death the soul is in the state of Barzakh (برزخ) — see Qur’an 23:99-100. The dead will be conscious in the grave and will be questioned by two angels, Munkar and Nakeer. The pious Muslims will answer easily, but unbelievers will be confounded by their questions. He will see his good deeds and the torments of the damned, which will begin in the grave for unbelievers.

Robert Spencer on January 14, 2008 at 7:58 AM

From the Hud discourse, the parallels between Mohammed and Joseph Smith, Jr. are chilling. But you needn’t respond to that observation.

A Muslim who believes that Allah commands stoning would consider this an example of how the Christians have corrupted the actual message of Jesus, because they would refuse to believe the idea that Jesus’ message could contradict Muhammad’s.–Robert Spencer on January 14, 2008 at 7:28 AM

Please, based upon the Koran, delineate what will be sold in the Iranian movie of their Islamic Jesus.

The movie’s producer must be preaching to Hollywood’s choir in claiming his peaceful intentions to show Islam’s solidarity behind Jesus, supposedly promoting the brotherhood of all mankind prior to the second coming. Unless I’m mistaken, scripture does not mention peace greeting the second coming.

If I understand correctly, for Islam, there is no use resisting, as all will be converted or destroyed. There is no doctrinal/social amalgamation since Islam is not going to change from perfect (corrupt) inception throughout all time. In their domain, it must be conversion and renunciation of any difference from Islam.

maverick muse on January 14, 2008 at 9:36 AM

He explained to his students that earthquakes were caused by tectonic shifts, or whatever it is, and they countered, No, you’re quite wrong, earthquakes are caused by the will of Allah.

Robert Spencer on January 13, 2008 at 6:46 PM

Mr. Spencer

I was quite surprised about your friend who taught in Pakistan, and how his students said that it was Allah’s will concerning earthquakes. I have a friend from the Pakistan/Western India border who I have worked exclusively with on seismic anomalies and he has similar stories about muslim students and their interesting rigidity since he is also a professor.

Now with that said, I have a question concerning this, and of course this is your opinion. But if muslim students are going to school to learn about science and so on, yet they will take science or any other terminology as only a back seat concerning their qu’ran. Then what is the point of schooling for them if the whole of Islam feels this way? Is this to infiltrate society as a whole?

Maybe I am babbling. It just seems that if they are so wrapped up with Islam and have no use for anything other then islam, makes me think and ponder. Or maybe I just answered my own question.

Thank you for publishing and making this easier to understand for people like myself. This is always interesting and insightful.

upinak on January 14, 2008 at 11:11 AM

upinak, I can imagine reasons for Muslim’s scientific studies:
1. Curiosity and imagination.
2. Know what others know.
Regarding any science, given an omniscient Allah-god, Allah would know all regarding place/time of material occurence like an earthquake. The Hebrew God and Jesus used the elements; a subsequent object of reverence would not be attributed any less. Hence, any study of the earth is a study of what Allah or God knows. A conflict would arise when human theory/desire is presented as divine revelation.

Would that be correct, Mr. Spencer?

maverick muse on January 14, 2008 at 11:32 AM

Do I think it will cause a major change in Islam — if a drastically different version of the Qur’an appears? Almost certainly not. Because it will just be denounced as a Zionist forgery etc.

Robert Spencer on January 14, 2008 at 7:25 AM

That, is what I was afraid you’d say. My husband is still of the mindset that something like this will, over time, cause a revolution of Islam in some enlightened way. From everything I’ve read and heard so far, I don’t think they want to be enlightened… especially the men.

4shoes on January 14, 2008 at 5:15 PM

I’m not surprised at the lack of scientific progress in Muslim countries. Every other sentence in the Koran directly contradicts the preceding one. It must turn your mind to mush after a while. AND, if you mention the fact that it’s all a mish mash they kill you. Ish!

Mojave Mark on January 15, 2008 at 9:31 AM

Dr. Spencer,
Long time reader, seldom poster.
I’ve just began taking the time to read this series, and the more I read, the more intrigued I become.

You can say…it is a bit of an epiphany for one to truly move from being a dhimmi to a non-dhimmi………

Thanks also for hightlighting the link to this article/interview:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=%7B6AA49466-2575-491F-B712-CEA90FCCCD0D%7D

Very explosive stuff, and very illuminating.

Please keep up the good work.

I commend the posters as well with their great questions….truly interesting stuff.

DonB on January 15, 2008 at 11:05 AM

DonB, thanks for that link, my head will be spinning for a while, but I esp. like this paragraph:

Our first clue about the dualism is in the Koran, which is actually two books, the Koran of Mecca (early) and the Koran of Medina (later). The insight into the logic of the Koran comes from the large numbers of contradictions in it. On the surface, Islam resolves these contradictions by resorting to “abrogation”. This means that the verse written later supersedes the earlier verse. But in fact, since the Koran is considered by Muslims to be the perfect word of Allah, both verses are sacred and true. The later verse is “better,” but the earlier verse cannot be wrong since Allah is perfect. This is the foundation of dualism. Both verses are “right.” Both sides of the contradiction are true in dualistic logic. The circumstances govern which verse is used.

No wonder these imams can just make up new rules arbitrarily, if you’re using the logic of the koran, it’s all “right”. Sheesh. What a freaking mess.

4shoes on January 15, 2008 at 11:28 AM

Actually, I just realized I should be thanking Robert Spencer for that link, but I missed it…

4shoes on January 15, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Robert, thank you for your time and effort on blogging the beliefs… and I have a question:

What is the fascination with the moon in Islam? And why are hillal sightings important? (See http://www.hilalsighting.org/ ). Maybe this could be a future topic for the blog…

Thanks for your time regarding this question.

ricer1 on January 17, 2008 at 1:03 PM