Audio: Santorum makes the case against McCain
posted at 12:08 pm on January 12, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Amazing to see a former Senate colleague from the same party deliver this kind of beating. Money quote: “He would just be too dangerous a choice for us as a conservative.” If you’re unfamiliar with the topic they discuss at the very end, get up to speed.
Don’t look now, but McCain still trails Mitt by a point in Michigan.
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McCain told me that torture doesn’t work. If McCain himself was forced into being a puppet for the communists because of torture, it would make his “torture doesn’t work” statement the most deranged statement ever made.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Wish his opinion mattered more.
dedalus on January 12, 2008 at 5:04 PM
Buddahpundit – torture doesn’t work to get people to tell the truth because to avoid pain they will say what the torturer wants them to say, no matter what that is.
Statements made under torture are not reliable. It doesn’t matter if the tortured person is John McCain or anyone else.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Barry Gold … who? Didn’t he lose to Lyndon Baines Johnson in his presidential bid badly?Jesus Ch … who? Didn’t he lose real bad to the Romans? Why did his opinion still matter?MB4 on January 12, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Not implying any agreement between Santorum and Buddhapundit on that point.
On your other question, Santorum’s attempt to legislate intelligent design, his action in the Shiavo case, his views on how much the government can intrude on individual privacy. In an election he’d turn off the liberals and also the Goldwater Republicans who want the goverment small and out of private lives.
dedalus on January 12, 2008 at 5:19 PM
Yah, I think that Barry would part company with Rick on that.
These days I think that Barry would be believing in unintelligent design or in devolution.
MB4 on January 12, 2008 at 5:26 PM
That is a red herring because what an enemy combatant or terrorist doesn’t know is irrelevant. What he does know is the relevant thing. An interrogator isn’t interested in information that he’ll never be able to verify as true or false.
Your defense of McCain’s “torture doesn’t work” comment is that it’s based on the assumption that the enemy combatant doesn’t actually know anything. That is a weird assumption considering that everyone knows “something” and some know a lot.
If you have a known al Qaeda member in custody, it is safe to assume that he knows other al qaeda members, where they might be found and possibly knows some plans. Since we can agree that torture isn’t fun, the enemy combatant or terrorist is threatened with torture to give up this information. I think it’s safe to say that McCain gave up lots of truthful information to his captors. Some captives don’t give up information or allow themselves to be used for propaganda purposes but it’s understandable why most people do succumb. It doesn’t make them heroic, however.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 6:08 PM
long time reader,new blogger. Been resident of Arizona 30 years. His allignment with Kennedy on the “SHAMNESTY BILL” was the straw for me. put with that his opposition to Bush tax cuts, campaign finance reform, calling waterboarding torture,gang of 14. Need I go on?? This guy might have trouble carrying the vote to get back in the Senate in Arizona.RINO is too good a title for this arrogant man. Do not believe what you read in MSM about AZ. The prime topic for this election will be illegal immigration.The other day headline in our Arizona Rag was 3840 denied admission to college as residents. Question of the day, should this be, 87% said yes.
pueblo1032 on January 12, 2008 at 6:17 PM
It doesn’t even need to be used as an “attack”.
The Russians, Chinese, Cubans and NV have thousands of hours of recorded confessions and anti-American propaganda coming from McCain’s lips, forced or voluntary, that they will release piece by piece once McCain is elected.
Imagine how demoralizing it will be for our country. The only way President McCain could avoid this is to make our enemies extremely happy all the time. You couldn’t make up a more dangerously compromised situation for our country to be in.
The Democrats will be talking about this problem non-stop from nomination to November. They will have pained looks on their faces and the word “hero” will be thrown around very liberally when they are making this point. Unless the Democrats and their media want McCain to be president specifically because they know how compromised his presidency would be, and that would be even more disturbing.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 6:38 PM
By serving our country by bearing arms and for his refusal to abandon his fellow soldiers while under extreme conditions John McCain is a Hero. And he will remain so until he truely becomes a traitor.
But his heroism doesn’t get my vote.
You may not like the man, or his politics, and you don’t have to vote for him, but do not disrespect a veteran that has earned respect.
Oh, and yes, men that served in previous wars that were captured by the enemy are also heroes. They also have earned respect.
Browncoatone on January 12, 2008 at 6:39 PM
after listening to the audio and putting it together what I already knew about mC, it’s clear this guy is only out for myself and can not be trusted with heavy lifting.
so far, it appears that we’re in the middle of a Rep. malaise (lost rudder).
more voters need to get a peak at this guy, before it’s a mess downstream.
thanks for posting it, ALLAHPUNDIT.
jimmer on January 12, 2008 at 7:24 PM
Your Democrat Governor signed your new anti-illegal immigration law because of popular pressure, I assume, not because she wanted to. And it’s WORKING! I have to believe that McCain, if he had been Governor of AZ, would have vetoed it. Only 44 states to go, and maybe only 44 if we can assume HI and AK are safe for now.
fred5678 on January 12, 2008 at 7:36 PM
Winston Churchill was not re-elected. Does anyone say, “Winston, who?”.
Not implying any agreement between Santorum and Buddhapundit on that point.
Good.
On your other question, Santorum’s attempt to legislate intelligent design, his action in the Shiavo case, his views on how much the government can intrude on individual privacy. In an election he’d turn off the liberals and also the Goldwater Republicans who want the goverment small and out of private lives.
Huge oversimplification.
Aren’t we talking apples and oranges here? The men we put under “enhanced interrogation techniques” (only 3 of whom were actually water boarded) were top AQ actors. Did McCain possess operational intelligence vital to our national security, such as like Khalid Sheik Mohammed, Ramzi Binalshibh, Abu Zabaydah, or others?
Isn’t your scenario of what would happen if he were elected a wee bit far-fetched? Why would this not have been used against him already? If he really faced such intense scrutiny once elected, why would he even bother running in the first place?
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 7:42 PM
Doesn’t seem so. I answered your earlier question succinctly. Feel free to disagree with any of the points. The Democrats drove off the cliff in the early 1970’s. Santorum is someone who would drive the Republicans off the cliff into unelectability.
dedalus on January 12, 2008 at 8:04 PM
MB4 on January 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Entelechy on January 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM
To be sure, we agree. I like your example – dear W. Churchill. Where are men like him these days?
Also, agree on all those items about Santorum. I’m not crazy about him on those either.
Entelechy on January 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Buddahpundit, you just don’t understand torture. It makes people say anything to get the pain to stop. They’ll say truthful things, they’ll say false things. Whatever takes the pain away, they’ll say. That’s why McCain talked, and that’s why what he said didn’t help the communists in Vietnam. That’s also why people talk under any torture situation, and why that information is not reliable.
When we consider the information that we get out of torture, that value is outweighed by moral concerns, and concerns over our own troops that are captured. With Vietnam and Iraq-era POWs, we can speak with moral authority and urge humane treatment of our soldiers detained by the enemy.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 11:11 PM
You don’t understand logic. Your argument makes the wild assumption that the interrogators are only asking questions where the answer can’t be verified.
If you mean to say “torture doesn’t work if the questions asked can be answered with lies that can never be verified”, then say it. Given the choice between answering truthfully and answering falsely, the interrogated person will answer truthfully to avoid more torture unless he’s certain that his lie won’t be discovered.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Rick Santorum is a real conservative. It was very disappointing when he lost to that do nothing, lazy, good for nothing Casey character. My personal opinion is that everyone who died these last 40 years in Philly and Pittsburgh voted for Casey in that election. The rest of the state loves Rick.
As for that poster boy for RINOs, John McCain, well, like his democrap allies, he really doesn’t want to lead our country, he just lusts for the power that office delivers.
Concerning torture, Buddapundit has it pretty much nailed. If you start cutting off fingers to make the subject say the sky is pink, that is humiliation and has no substantive value. Our interrogators are after who is in the enemy leadership structure, how do you receive your orders, what is your next target, etc. etc. Using other means, some of that information can be crossed verified. That old worn out argument that duress does not yield good information is pure BS.
Zorro on January 13, 2008 at 9:04 AM
Agreed, but where Buddhapundit careens off a cliff is here:
The Russians, Chinese, Cubans and NV have thousands of hours of recorded confessions and anti-American propaganda coming from McCain’s lips, forced or voluntary, that they will release piece by piece once McCain is elected.
Imagine how demoralizing it will be for our country. The only way President McCain could avoid this is to make our enemies extremely happy all the time. You couldn’t make up a more dangerously compromised situation for our country to be in.
For example, you begin with citing Santorum’s attempt to legislate intelligent design.
That is an oversimplification because a “Sense of the Senate” resolution does not carry the weight of law. To say that he attempted to “legislate” I.D. does not hold up to scrutiny.
In any case, why do you oppose teaching the controversy?:
“The Conferees recognize that a quality science education should prepare students to distinguish the data and testable theories of science from religious or philosophical claims that are made in the name of science. Where topics are taught that may generate controversy (such as biological evolution), the curriculum should help students to understand the full range of scientific views that exist, why such topics may generate controversy, and how scientific discoveries can profoundly affect society.”
It is reminiscent of the Goreacle’s claims that the debate is over vis a vis
Global WarmingClimate Change, and that consensus a) exists and b)proves that a theory is a scientific fact.Buy Danish on January 13, 2008 at 10:22 AM
You know, most of the comments here reflect a salient point.
If McCain refused to support his own party and president……two tax votes, gang of 14, etc., due to his ‘independence’ then why in the world does the party support the guy.
I realize RINO is cute, but where is the outrage in the primaries by the faithful. I cannot think of a more divisive man in power. He singlehandedly held up this party’s only hope of appointing conservative judges and very good picks. I guess that is old news.
Starlink on January 13, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Really? So why did he vote for it?
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 110th Congress – 1st Session
as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate
Vote Summary
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00127#name
Gianni on January 13, 2008 at 2:12 PM
Gah, I messed up the quote, but I think you can figure it out.
Gianni on January 13, 2008 at 2:17 PM
Santorum was voted out of office, in part, because of his ID efforts in the Senate and the verdict in the 2005 Dover PA school board case. As an incumbent he lost by 18% in a state where Bush got 48.4% of the vote in 2004. I don’t think he has the formula for the GOP to win nationally.
I don’t have a problem with ID being discussed in school, but not in biology class since it isn’t science.
dedalus on January 13, 2008 at 3:08 PM
John McCain is Bob Dole Redux people. Republicans need to wake up so we can get this ship back on the right track. Isn’t the goal to win, with the candidate who has the strongest appeal AND stances on the issues. McCain is not a fiscal conservative. McCain is a amnesty supporter. McCain has a multitude of issues from cozying up to far left liberals like Ted Kennedy. McCain has 0 executive experience. We can do better than this, I hope..
therightwinger on January 13, 2008 at 5:50 PM
Doesn’t it make sense to teach the controversy in the class where the topic is taught? Do we teach it in French? History? Language Arts? Keep in mind that the theory of evolution is taught in middle school as a part of “science”, not “biology.
Are we allowed to teach the controversy on Global Warming? If so, in what classes is it permissable? The so-called scientists who comprise the “consensus” come from a wide range of discliplines, very few of whom are climatologists or meterologists.
Buy Danish on January 13, 2008 at 10:01 PM
If ID posited an alternate scientific theory that explained the mechanism whereby species changed, then there would be a scientific controversy. Currently, the Discovery Institute folks seem more interested in filling the gaps in evolution with metaphysics than with science.
You may raise valid questions regarding global warming. I haven’t read up on it and don’t have an opinion.
dedalus on January 13, 2008 at 11:31 PM
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