Audio: Santorum makes the case against McCain
posted at 12:08 pm on January 12, 2008 by Allahpundit
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Amazing to see a former Senate colleague from the same party deliver this kind of beating. Money quote: “He would just be too dangerous a choice for us as a conservative.” If you’re unfamiliar with the topic they discuss at the very end, get up to speed.
Don’t look now, but McCain still trails Mitt by a point in Michigan.
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Good good, the choices seem to be McCain or Huckabee at this point. I have to hope that if either gets the nomination, the national election doesn’t turn into leftist-Democrat vs. moderate-Democrat. I think I would still take McCain over Huck… at worst, I think McCain would end up looking a lot like Bush (pro-amnesty, but tough national defense) and possibly without all the spending. Eh, who knows. I picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue…
Wineaholic on January 12, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Daily KOS: Mitt for Michigan!
bnelson44 on January 12, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Santorum is really making the rounds. First, I heard him on Wilkow’s Sirius show about 10 days ago and he’s been on with Hewitt and Levin since then. All his appearances have had the same message: “Anybody but McCain!!!!”
Greenhorn on January 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM
McCain is a disaster. He’s not conservative and he’s not an American hero. And, yes, I’d be glad to defend all of my remarks.
davenp35 on January 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM
I respect Santorum, and I have my qualms with Senator McCain, but Senator McCain wins elections and Santorum is a Fox news Consultant now.
I can live with a McCain/Thompson Ticket.
JayHaw Phrenzie on January 12, 2008 at 12:22 PM
Thanks for reminding me why I will not be voting for McCain. I was wavering there for a minute.
It’s either Fred, Romney, or I’m writing in.
amkun on January 12, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Wineaholic on January 12, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Did you listen to the audio clip?
boomer on January 12, 2008 at 12:27 PM
F*ck dkos; who cares. The Democrats don’t.
As for Santorum, I heard this the other day, and he slapped McCain around but good. I was startled; I don’t think he likes or admires the Maverick.
Did he actually use the word douchebag, or did I imagine it?
Jaibones on January 12, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Rick San … who? Didn’t he lose his re-election bid badly? Why does his opinion still matter?
Ian on January 12, 2008 at 12:37 PM
Yeah, Santorum sums it up pretty well. He is a Democrat on everything except foreign policy, and my fear would be that even there, he would try to work with them first. McCain’s definition of ‘conservative’ seems to be different.
AUINSC on January 12, 2008 at 12:42 PM
As an Arizona voter, I agree with Santorum: Anybody but McCain (or Huckabee)!!
AZCoyote on January 12, 2008 at 12:42 PM
So much ammo out there against McVain. Fred and Huck must be keeping their powder dry.
More on McCain’s party switch here.
America would have been better off if he switched then instead of almost single handedly thwarting the conservative agenda.
Valiant on January 12, 2008 at 12:47 PM
God, I hope it’s true… I live in Michigan and I fear that since the Dems don’t have any contest on their side they will flood the republican polls electing McCain. Goodness, I just threw up in my mouth.
Micheal on January 12, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Santorum had a chance to support a conservative over a RINO in 04 but he backed Specter over Toomey. Now he wants us to believe that he’s the arbiter of who is conservative enough to get the nomination?
BrianBoru on January 12, 2008 at 12:49 PM
No matter, as far as i’m concerned, what he said nails it. I don’t care if he’s Karl Marx.
AUINSC on January 12, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Santorum’s opinion doesn’t matter, other than to engage in another masochistic episode of bash the GOP candiates. This is the reason that the GOP will lose in November: because far too many people, including posters on this site, consider anyone to the left of Pat Buchanan as a liberal. This is not Reaganism; neither is it any way to win the general election.
Some of the garbage here beggars belief. McCain has more of the American hero in his little finger than 99.9% citizens have in their entire body. And to suggest that a man who is staunchly pro-life, so powerful in defending US interests, in combating terror, in cutting pork barrel spending, in mandatory sentencing, in opposing socialised healthcare, is somehow worse than Clinton/Obama, two of the most liberal candidates you will ever see on a presidential ticket, demonstrates how low this debate has sunk.
It’s time guys to grow up, or face defeat.
Pax americana on January 12, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Why do you people think that the Daily Kos is supporting Mitt for Michigan?
Shouldn’t it be obvious?
Pax americana on January 12, 2008 at 12:54 PM
I live in AZ as well, and I agree with Santorum.
For all those folks who talk about Santorum losing in 06. Just wait until ‘10 when McCain gets thrown out for Janet Nepolitano. I have no love for Janet, but McCain has pissed off alot of conservatives in this state.
burnitup on January 12, 2008 at 12:56 PM
Does anybody have any info on relocation to Australia?
Metro on January 12, 2008 at 12:57 PM
OMG, Markos and Hugh Hewitt ARE THE SAME PERSON!!!!
JayHaw Phrenzie on January 12, 2008 at 12:58 PM
I’m convinced, that some of you do not even read up and educate yourself about the subjects you comment on… in this case John McCain:
As much as I respect RWS, I just cannot understand why someone would support anyone like John McCain.
McCain is not a conservative!
Why someone can say that they used to be a democrat and now have become a conservative, but then turn around and support a liberal like McCain is beyond me, unless they truly are not a conservative.
Huckabee and McCain rate the highest of the of the least desirable candidate.
With 674 votes, Huckabee received 411 votes at 61% and McCain 139 votes at 20%.
And this lying jack is supported by people who are considered intelligent.
Boggles my mind.
Do inform me sheeple.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Romney/Santorum?
Thompson/Santorum?
SouthernGent on January 12, 2008 at 1:03 PM
This isn’t a question about his being an acknowledged hero. It’s a question about what kind of president he would be. Just because some people (like me) don’t prefer him as the nominee, for reasons cited by Santorum, doesn’t mean we are spitting on his war record. His record indicates he would be a bad Republican president, though preferable to anything the Democrats would put forward. We have other choices. That’s what primaries are for. I love McCain the war hero and I detest McCain the politician.
AUINSC on January 12, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Used to be in England ….
Commit a crime, go to Asturalia, thats the law!
Fred!
RobertInAustin on January 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM
We need more conservatives to beat down McCain’s chances. Fred or Romney deserve the nomination. He has been voting with the Dems. He might as well be one.
tommuck on January 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM
McCain was a prisoner of war from October 26, 1967 to March 15, 1973. Two of those years were in solitary confinement. While in prison he was tortured. We can disagree with his stance on political issues but to argue that he is not an American hero is ridiculous.
BrianBoru on January 12, 2008 at 1:05 PM
Used to be in England ….
Commit a crime, go to Australia, thats the law!
Fred!
RobertInAustin on January 12, 2008 at 1:06 PM
dKos wants Republicans to burn all their money on a drawn out primary, which is more likely to happen if Mitt wins Michigan.
But the truth of the matter is is that most conservatives are waiting for a winner to donate the hard cash. That’s why the RNC has been getting so many more donations then the DNC.
Micheal on January 12, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Metro, (a 12:57 PM)
Google search results for “relocation to Australia“.
Or http://www.moving2australia.com
Do not pet the kangaroos. They bite.
And, there are liberals galore down under, where the sun does shine.
At least there the liberals are intelligent, especially when they are drinking beer.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:08 PM
Well if an internet poll says it — it must be true! Cuz real polls (like elections and such) are just lies!!!1!11!
Ian on January 12, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Senator McCain is an American Hero.
Period.
End of discussion.
However…That alone does not qualify him to lead the nation, nor does it make him a conservative. His positions on taxation, border security, interrorgation techniques, and his tendancy to loose his temper are all disqualifiers for my vote. The only way I would consider voting for him would be in order to stave off another Clinton administration.
Oh, and the Australia thing, I looked into it myself but they don’t let you keep your guns down there. The line must be drawn here.
Browncoatone on January 12, 2008 at 1:10 PM
im sorry but his being a formerpow dose not give him life long hero status. When he is trying with all his heart to sell me out and have my wages constantly undercut by the illegals or as he says god’s children. I’m sick and tired of this rino, you want to fight the war but you don’t want to protect our boarders and want to let the 12-20 million illegal {criminal} aliens stay. Bite me McLame and what about that 50$ a hour job you said I wouldn’t be able to do , I guess you weren’t serious because you never returned my call or emails .
One of the biggest pork barrel projects is supporting illegal aliens both with social services, health care & ejection not to mention the billions that are sent out of our economy to prop up their own failed homelands.
Mojack420 on January 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM
BrianBoru, at 1:05 PM,
Heroism does not stop when you get out of POW prison.
If at any point a hero betrays the trust of his admirers he’s no longer called a hero. He’s called a traitor.
I am just really pissed at conservatives that are betraying us by supporting John McCain.
My barbs good get worse but I’ll stop here before I say something I regret.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:15 PM
It’s amazing how balkanized the GOP has become.
flipflop on January 12, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Why, because he let himself be taken prisoner of war?
Are there any POWs from wars previous to Vietnam that are war heroes based solely on the criteria that they let themselves be captured or is that something new that started with McCain?
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 1:21 PM
well said
Mojack420 on January 12, 2008 at 1:23 PM
Mcguyver,
I don’t believe it’s conservatives supporting McCain. I think it’s run-of-the-mill Republicans who go for name-brand politicians. Those and country club Republicans who would whore out their country’s sovereignty to make a buck.
burnitup on January 12, 2008 at 1:27 PM
Rush also tore into McCain yesterday in glorious detail.
Here’s the transcript.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 1:29 PM
McCain’s positioning on a host of issues may be regrettable where not deplorable, and may even call into question his full conservative credentials. All the same, the notion that from a conservative point of view he’s no different than Hillary or Obama, or worse, or that we could depend on failures by the Democrats to restore the Republicans by 2010 or 2012 at the latest, and without deep damage to the nation’s interests, requires that you view things from far further to the right than the country as a whole is ever likely to be governed.
If the outcome of the nominating process is an outright McCain victory, he can and should pick a believable potential successor as running mate whose conservative credentials are unimpeachable. Other outcomes might be far preferable, but all will require compromises, and call on us to deal with our country as it is, not as in some RonPaul-level political fantasy. If we can’t do that, then we deserve to be irrelevant. If we can, it would be a major step forward for a conservative coalition that has recently looked on the verge of shattering.
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 1:34 PM
No, [fill in the blank with favorite epithet], because, among other things, he refused to take the special treatment he was offered by the N. VIETS because his father was an Admiral in the U.S. Navy.
This is a lose-lose argument for you to pursue.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 1:34 PM
burnitup,
Right.
That’s my point they really are not Reagan conservatives.
I wouldn’t even call them run-of-them-mill republicans.
I think they are not educated on true conservative principles, because ultimately, they either don’t care, or, they really are a few eggs short of a happy caviar.
I’m just getting started, trust me.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:35 PM
You know who the real traitors are? People who question John McCain’s patriotism.
Ian on January 12, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Who do you think McCain would pick?
Nobody can trust the guy to do that!
What are the odds that he will choose Huckabee for his running mate?
http://mccainhuckabee08.blogspot.com/
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:40 PM
Ian,
The subject is not patriotism. It’s heroism.
We cannot call the Democrats unpatriotic, remember?
Don’t come in here and insult our intelligence by switching the subject.
Doesn’t work here at HA. Too many eyes and brains here.
If you are going to continue to hack yourself into this conversation you might as well excuse yourself and go waste your time somewhere else.
I will cease responding to you if you continue insulting us.
And that is not a threat.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM
I think it’s partly Hot Air and MM’s role in the immigration debate that has made the site a magnet for a certain brand of “Further Right World” extremism – in which positions and approaches embraced by or anyway acceptable to the vast majority of voters equates with treason.
On immigration in particular, many of us find the idea of a country that’s 95% traitors (to the left of Tancredo) kind of a paradox.
To the vast majority of our compatriots, being open-minded about our political opponents, in the sense of treating centrists and leftists with respect as fellow Americans, giving them a fair hearing, and taking their views and ideas into account, is a good thing. Pragmatic open-mindedness and compromise is a lot more American than ideologically-driven fanaticism and emotionalism.
On the other hand, I also realize that, for as long as the nomination fight is open, people are going to make demonstrative proclamations of all types. As I’ve said before, I think most of the extremist-sounding people, even the ones posting their threats and ugly insults here, are going to end up rallying behind the more-conservative nominee, whoever he is.
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 1:47 PM
if he is so patriotic then why did he co write Mclame Feingold attack on the first amendment rights of the people or try to sell out the American people to 12-20 million {which would have been closer to 70 million illegals .}
Mojack420 on January 12, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Cue Col. Nathan R. Jessep.
Would you agree that McCain would be some higher magnitude of hero if he had refused to be taken POW while his father was Commander-in-Chief of United States forces in the Pacific?
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 1:49 PM
I’m not sure what exactly that means (and I’m not really asking for clarification), but I don’t think many of us would agree with where you are going there, no matter how much we disagree with McCain’s politics.
AUINSC on January 12, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Mcguyver, how am I switching the subject? The conversation was not about the heroism of McCain until someone changed it to that. You can be against the guy all you want, that’s your right, but don’t you dare question whether the man is a hero or not. I can’t believe we are even having this conversation!
Ian on January 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM
Buddhapundit didn’t question McCain’s patriotism, he questioned his heroism. I think it’s fair to say that that makes Buddapundit an idgit, but I don’t know that I’d go so far as to call him a traitor.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 1:50 PM
GO MITT!
Alright Im Going for Mitt….
At least in Michigan!!!
PLEEEEEASE I dont want Huck Or McCain
C’mon Dems Vote MITT!!!
I say we start forwarding that dkos email to the dems we might know!
Get rid of the Worst of the Worst RINOs
-Wasteland Man.
WastelandMan on January 12, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Good to know!
thanks! ;)
Metro on January 12, 2008 at 1:54 PM
Now that idgit comment is implying that an entire demographic are traitors.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 1:56 PM
I dunno who McCain will pick. He could do worse than Huck. (I’m not sure how, but I might be able to come up with a suggestion if I think about it long and hard enough!) Even without considering McCain’s need to mollify his critics within the party, his VP pick would be of unusually high importance due to his age – one reason McCain’s already having to squelch Lieberman rumors.
I don’t know enough about Sarah Palin to know whether she’d be a good pick – does she come across well enough for people to see her as a potential President after a bit of seasoning? – but, if someone of her unfortunately rather rare type is available who also serves the other necessary purposes, then great! Fred might be an excellent fallback. Who’d make you happy(ier)?
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 1:58 PM
As to the magical “used to be a Democrat, but now I’m a conservative” transformation, look up Rep. Walter B. Jones, Jr. (R NC) Wanna talk about a RINO…and yet, folks around here still adore him, and I have no doubt he’ll be re-elected AGAIN.
Just shows how the line between conservative and liberal can become dangerously blurred in an election year.
uncivilized on January 12, 2008 at 2:02 PM
Re VPs – that should have said “who McCain WOULD pick” – I don’t think the nomination’s decided yet.
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 2:02 PM
CK MacLeod,
You really demonstrate the arrogant, “I know better than you schmucks when it comes to ideal political strategy” as echoed by McCain in, so many words.
But the majority of the electorate are not buying it or else Rush Limbaugh’s show which has stressed true conservative principles for 19 years – not extreme right hacks like you suggest – wouldn’t be so successful.
And before you go on a intellectual diatribe about Rush.. let me say this, I already know that you don’t particularly like his beliefs and style, hence your barb at true conservative principles as practiced by millions of intelligent perfectly normal people.
Which of course you have a hard time relating to because your nose is held a little higher than the snobs below you.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 2:03 PM
Not that it should matter, Mcguyver, but I think Rush is the bee’s knees. Even Rush got real enough to point out recently that McCain would probably be preferable to Huck, for instance, and I sincerely doubt that, if McCain or Huck wins the nomination, Rush will urge sitting out the election or even come close to implying it’s a viable or reasonable position when faced with Hillary or Obama and an all-Dem Congress.
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Let me preface this by stating that I’m no tremendous fan of John McCain the politician – and I know for certain that I do NOT want to see his name on the ballot in November – but, I do have to ask…
…how does one go about “letting themselves be taken prisoner of war”?
I’m just wondering…
uncivilized on January 12, 2008 at 2:18 PM
It’s amazing how quick McCain ball-washers will try to trump any criticism with the POW Absolute Moral Authority card.
Don’t like McCain Feingold.. shut up he was a POW / hero
Don’t like McCain Kennedy … shut up he was a POW / hero
Friggin hilarious… reminds me of Kerry in 04
Kerry on the economy… Bush sucks, I was in Vietnam
Kerry on on Iraq… Bush sucks, I was in Vietnam
Kerry on healthcare.. Bush sucks, I was in Vietnam
burnitup on January 12, 2008 at 2:22 PM
McCain WOULD BE THE BOB DOLE OF 2008……..Which means a defeat…He is toooooo old and hasbeen for the younger vote……
Besides…….HE FORCES A STUPID, FORCED, FAKE SMILE after EVERY answer…..
I could not bear to listen to the audio…..but I know this…..McCain sides with the libs ALOT……expecially on Gitmo and pouring a little water on killers faces…..
AND HE IS TOO OLD AND ALZHEIMERISH TO WIN…..JUST LIKE DOLE
PLEASE……..!!
PLEASE……..!!
Let’s get a Thompson/Romney Ticket……
awesum on January 12, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Who are the McCain supporters here?
Here is a good, in-depth story that may provide you some insight into the “thinking” of people who make claims of that sort.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 2:29 PM
My dislike for McCain is despite his service to his country and being a POW in Vietnam. Yes, he holds heroic status for the treatment he received at the hands of the North Vietnamese and for the record he didn’t allow himself to be captured but was shot down, badly injured, and captured. My admiration for his service will last a lifetime but it doesn’t mean that I have to admire his political positions and agenda. I will not vote for McCain because no matter what party he belongs to, he’s a Democrat with a Democrat agenda. I really have little doubt that he wanted to change parties and run with Kerry in 2004. Kerry thinks he’s a war hero too and McCain would probably be much more comfortable with people who think like him.
Buzzy on January 12, 2008 at 2:33 PM
How is one taken prisoner of war without allowing himself to be taken prisoner of war?
I’m just wondering…
I may have chosen to surrender myself as a prisoner of war in the same circumstances that McCain was in. I like to think I would have resisted and died before allowing myself to be taken POW while my father was Commander-in-Chief of United States forces in the Pacific, but such a boast would be easy and obnoxious of someone who never had to face those real life circumstances. I don’t think it would have made me a traitor ( although past generations may have had a different assessment ), but it sure as hell would be 180 degrees from heroism.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 2:36 PM
McCain’s a much better candidate than Dole – I’m referring to his personality, his positioning, and his other political skills – and Hillary or Obama wouldn’t have Bill Clinton’s incumbency advantages. As the polls tend to indicate, McCain’s at this point probably the strongest candidate the Republicans have from the point of view of electability, age notwithstanding.
But I happen to agree that Thompson/Romney would be a fine ticket, for reasons laid out in a recent post to the Corner. Can’t happen though until and unless Thompson demonstrates a lot more political strength than he has so far.
On the other hand, IF Thompson somehow stages a comeback, proving so many supposedly smart people completely wrong, then he would also gain an aura of invincibility, or if not invincibility, then at least confirmation that he really is smarter than most of us. He could grab the nomination with tremendous momentum and the sense that he did so without compromising who he was and how he thought things should be done.
If he wins South Carolina, or even comes close, then his slingshot momentum would be tremendous. He’d become the default anyone-but-McCain-or-Huck candidate going into Super Tuesday, if he isn’t already.
I wouldn’t call that outcome likely, but it’s a possibility.
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 2:37 PM
Why we must vote for an authentic and consistent conservative:
Bottom line: The Bush Justice Department has sided with the fascist gun grabbers, twisting the knife he had already plunged into the back of conservatives. This year we cannot take any more chances with maverick, liberal, or Johnny-come-lately-conservative Republicans. We need someone who believes in his marrow that conservatism, by its very nature, is the only compassionate way to govern. Say no to: compassionate conservatism; I gave people hope; I made government work; I did it for the children, and other liberal malarchy. We need to nominate someone who does more than pay lip service to Reagan. In 2008 we must nominate a true believer.
Go Fred Go
flyfisher on January 12, 2008 at 2:40 PM
Just copied because it bears repeating to those who think that acts of patriotism and heroism naturally confer agreement in all other areas to the hero.
baldilocks on January 12, 2008 at 2:41 PM
This is the primaries CK MacLeod!
Don’t try to tell us how this is going to come out, or what if that, then what?
That’s not how it works in the primary.
We are talking about the differences in the candidates!
To try and disparage anyone because “Oh well, he’ll be better than the such and such” is pure poppycock.
And before you go into a diatribe about how you were not trying to disparage anyone….
..let me say this, pretty much everything you have said above, serves to cause someone to think, not in terms of what do I really want in my representative candidate, but rather, causes someone to feel like, “no matter who I vote for, it’s still going to be worse than I want it to be.”
Such arrogant snobbery illustrated above, serves to regurgitate the “same old, same old” that nobody wants, that is, unless one is a snob disguised as having the best interest in mind for the represented.
No candidate is perfect as no humans are, hence the reason for a representative Republic wherein we elect our peers by informed consent and continue to hold our peers accountable once in office.
And you Huck fans don’t even go into a diatribe about how Huckabee is such a peer.
HUCKABEE IS NOT ACTING AS OUR PEER!
Huckabee is an arrogant Christian opportunistic snob paster wrapped into the second coming mantle of Slick Willie… basically a Jimmy Baker and Bill Clinton reincarnation fornicating himself with the admiration of his
followerssheeple.If you Huck fans even dare to come in here and give me intelligible diatribes about Huck, which just prove that you are ignoramuses following blindly as did millions following Bill Clinton and Jimmy Baker.. well then, don’t even expect me to respond.
My time is worth a lot more than attempting to have a intellectual discourse with tools like you.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 2:42 PM
McCain raises the question, is a Republican victory in 2008 worth electing a Democrat with an R after his name?
I don’t think so! Resist the move to make the GOP into Democrat Lite.
Buzzy on January 12, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Words have meanings. “To allow” means to permit, to let. Using the verb “allow” implies that McCain had a choice; that he could have chosen not to be taken prisoner.
baldilocks on January 12, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Who’s diatribing whom?
CK MacLeod on January 12, 2008 at 2:45 PM
McCain is EXACTLY like Dole in this respect…..
An Old guy trying to parlay his Old military experience into a win…Over a totally adversive political environment…..
And thereby a loser…….
Plus….McCain is a Lib…
I am an Army Veteran, Military Police/Air Assault……..and I don’t give a rats a$$ about McCains military past…….he is a self serving politician with lib views….
A McCain nomination wilol be a rerun of 1996……
awesum on January 12, 2008 at 2:45 PM
You know why he’s bashing Mcamnesty right?
Huckabee/Santorum 08′
HaraldHardrada on January 12, 2008 at 2:45 PM
CK MacLeod,
We can diatribe as much as you want.
And you’re welcome as well.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Really? Where did you read that?
AUINSC on January 12, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.
I’m not sure being a POW which he had no choice in makes anyone a hero. Feats of courage is anothing matter…beside not accepting the red’s offer of lenient imprisonment or release does not qualify as a heroic act IMO.
What someone does 38 plus yrs ago…does not make them who they are today…McAmnesty is a perfect example of that.
In closing it’s not easy to say or accept the Republican Party is no longer the party of conservative values as it’s has moved to at best the party of moderates.
oldernslower on January 12, 2008 at 2:59 PM
Thank you, Buy Danish…very informative.
uncivilized on January 12, 2008 at 3:02 PM
He was shot down and injured in the process. I don’t think he could have ‘disallowed’ his capture given where he went down. His actions in the Hanoi Hilton did indeed rise to the level of heroic on many, many occasions.
That said, the fact that the Dems courted him (and the fact he apparently gave it some thought) speaks for itself. So did his so-called ‘immigration reform’ plan and his arrogant response to those who opposed it. I don’t believe for a second that he has learned anything.
Give him all the honors he can handle but retire him, for God’s sake.
sloopy on January 12, 2008 at 3:06 PM
By being shot down. Then, after breaking both arms and both legs, being dragged to shore and beaten until unconscious.
BrianBoru on January 12, 2008 at 3:13 PM
Oh yes, and we’re not taught to resist to the death if there is another honorable option.
baldilocks on January 12, 2008 at 3:13 PM
If I had broken both arms and a leg, and was floundering in a lake – still attached to my parachute and drowning – I don’t think “surrendering” would be the term used to describe my being taken prisoner. And I doubt that my daddy being CinCPac would have entered into the equation at that precise moment.
Is John McCain a war hero? In my opinion, he is…but, as I say, that’s my opinion, and like so many other things, “everyone has one, and all of them stink”. Was he a traitor? No, I don’t believe that for a minute. Did he “volunteer” to be taken prisoner by the North Vietnamese? No – he may be many things, but crazier ‘n hell isn’t one of them. All of that aside, however, do I think he’s: a) a Conservative, b) a genuine Republican, or c) the right candidate to hold the office of President of the United States? Absolutely not. Generals (and Admirals) make great soldiers and sailors. As politicians, though…not so much.
uncivilized on January 12, 2008 at 3:19 PM
I don’t think too many people would argue with you there. That is quite different from Buddhapundit claiming that someone whose plane was shot down and broke his arms and leg shouldn’t have “allowed” himself to be captured.
You’re welcome. Sunshine is the best disinfectant in these situations.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 3:21 PM
McCain wins because of a slavishly devoted Arizona media (I live in AZ). Santorum lost because PA is so wacky they keep sending the Specter back to haunt the halls of Congress.
Santorum is a hero, a real conservative, a great American. Look at his record.
jgapinoy on January 12, 2008 at 3:25 PM
After listening to Santorum, I realized that the Democrats are right to claim that he’s their biggest fear in the 2008 election. I had been very skeptical of their claim, but he’s not scare any moderates into voting Democratic, by being too far out there. On the other hand, Huckabee will be crucified for his former career and Rudy will be portrayed as a mean guy. Kos may be right about his Michigan gambit. Has Kos ever been right before?
thuja on January 12, 2008 at 3:34 PM
thuja,
All we know of Kos, is that they have an agenda fueled in part by their apparent “smart” strategy in the past.
I just hope it doesn’t back fire on them.. the poor saps.
Mcguyver on January 12, 2008 at 3:40 PM
McCain hs great respect and affection for the captors who mended his broken limbs, nursed his wounds, and indoctrinated him into a “Manchurian Candidate” mentality…..
1)Amnesty
2)Water poured on a killers face is torture
3)Close Gitmo and bring them here with FULL rights
4)The Gang of 13….or whatever hell the number was of the liberal collaberators in congress
Etc…….Etc…..Ad Nauseum
awesum on January 12, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Contra Santorum’s statement, McCain opposes federal funding of embryonic stem cell research.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 4:03 PM
One thing is for sure. McCain can be criticized, but he can never be swiftboated.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 4:05 PM
Hanoi Says McCain’s Son Terms U.S. ‘Isolated’
November 11, 1967, Saturday
HANOI, North Vietnam, Nov. 10 (Agence France-Presse)– Lieut. Cmdr. John Sydney McCain 3d, son of Admiral John S. McCain Jr., commander of United States naval forces in Europe, was quoted by the Hanoi press today as having said that the United States appeared “isolated” because of the Vietnam war. Gee, I wonder why McCain was undermnining the US while in Vietnam. We know he must have done it voluntarily because he has assured us that “torture doesn’t work”.
Even if he wasn’t voluntarily undermining the war effort, it is ironic that those who use the same language to undermine the US today are very fond of Mr. McCain. And Mr. McCain is very fond of them.
And whether the anti-American propaganda is voluntary or coerced, how ironic is that the communists’ two most useful propaganda puppets ( again, not necessarily voluntarily in McCain’s case ) are major contenders for POTUS 40 years later? McCain’s close personal friend John Kerry has no excuse.
Buddahpundit on January 12, 2008 at 4:18 PM
The guy served. He was a prisoner for 5 years. If you don’t recognize and respect that service, then you “don’t support the troops”. It doesn’t make him POTUS material but he gave up more for his country than most, and did it in a war that was badly run.
If the GOP put up a candidate with Santorum’s views nationally it would turn quickly into a long-term minority party.
dedalus on January 12, 2008 at 4:27 PM
If you put on an American military uniform and have the enemy shoot at you, it might make you heroic. It definitely requires courage and is deserving of respect.
dedalus on January 12, 2008 at 4:32 PM
Which views are those exactly?
Surely you are not implying that Santorum agrees with Buddhapundit’s claims that McCain “allowed” himself to be captured and was “undermining the war effort”.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 4:38 PM
Buddahpundit – I believe it is important to understand torture. Expert torturers are capable of causing anyone–no matter how closely he resembles Rambo–to talk within a period of 30 minutes. There are certain ways of causing such incredible pain that people will be “broken,” and will say what the torturer wants. McCain can’t be held responsible for his words at the time of his torture.
The US military has the code of name, rank, DOB, and serial number, but in practice–in both the Korean War and Vietnam, we found out that no human being can successfully live up to that standard if there is a skilled enemy torturer at work on him.
This won’t even make for a successful Democratic attack on McCain, because it is right in his wheelhouse. This is a subject that McCain has moral authority over in this election.
I believe we are never going to see any large group–or probably any group–of veterans who were POWs along with McCain who have any significant criticism of his actions while detained. That’s why he can’t be swiftboated. John Kerry made boasts of military exploits that defied reality, or at least seemed to. Then Kerry’s fellows called him on it. McCain does not boast, and his account is in line with reality.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 4:41 PM
This is a good book on Vietnam POWs and torture.
indythinker on January 12, 2008 at 4:44 PM
Barry Gold … who? Didn’t he lose to Lyndon Baines Johnson in his presidential bid badly? Why did his opinion still matter?
MB4 on January 12, 2008 at 4:48 PM
As much as I agree that McCain can not be faulted for what he said due to torture, I strongly disagree with his position on water boarding and his squeezing of the Bush Administration on the torture issue.
Buy Danish on January 12, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Indeed, great men fight a good fight, win/lose, then retreat to a nice piece of land and continue to contribute. Barry Goldwater was indeed a great man, respected by people from all walks of life, including opposing political paths.
Entelechy on January 12, 2008 at 4:56 PM
If the enemy captures you, you are defeated.
- Sun Tzu’s Nephew
It’s time to crush Plantation McVain, of face tener que aprender Espanol.
MB4 on January 12, 2008 at 4:58 PM
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