If blanket amnesty is a losing issue, so also is mass deportation — the practicality and morality of which are rarely considered by those rightly calling for an end to illegal immigration. Busing every illegal alien back to Mexico right now might resemble the past messy partition of India and Pakistan, and reopen the issue in a way that Democrats can legitimately exploit
I guess us ancient history buffs think alike.
If you were talking about a few thousand, even a few hundred thousand, I would agree with you. The rule of law would require that they return. But we are talking about, according to you, THIRTY MILLION PEOPLE. That would be more than 4 cities the size of New York. Using economic coercion to force that many people back to a Mexican economy that would be utterly destroyed in the process would be both impossible and cruel.

tommylotto on January 10, 2008 at 7:06 PM

Same old recycled two choice option – you, VDH, and Bush always conveniently forget to mention the third alternative, which the vast majority of Republicans, Independents, and even Democrats agree to: attrition by enforcement. Here is a Zogby poll for you to digest.

I have never advocated mass deportations. Let them go home gradually, on their own; with no rewards, jobs, and benefits there is no reason to stay.

I am sick every time Bush or VDH say “We can’t deport 12 million people, THEREFORE WE HAVE TO MAKE THEM CITIZENS.” B.S. How about trying a little law enforcement, as AZ, OK, and TN are finding works just fine. Now all we have to do is do the same at the federal level before the next 47 states have to do it themselves.

I am always amazed at people who, when facing a problem that has been ignored for way too many years, push to aggravate the problem instead of trying to alleviate the problem. You can continue to ignore the problem, aggravate it by rewarding illegal behavior, or alleviate it by starting to enforce our laws.

We now have 3 active test cases demonstrating attrition by enforcement. Let’s see how it plays out. Without offering rewards for illegal behavior and soliciting bribes.

I dont care what spin HotAir puts on it with their endless spinning for Fred..

Fred has NO executive experience!

A vote for any congress-critter would validate Hillary or Obama’s “experience”!

Fred got steamrolled by John Glenn!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/campfin/stories/cf071197c.htm

Read that article from Friday, July 11, 1997

And fred says that he “hasn’t been running for President his whole life”

Why didn’t he just run in 2000?

I note you avoid replying to my specific points, reference ancient history, and ignore the progress made in Arizona, Oklahoma, and Tennessee – all of whose intelligent legislatures have implemented enforcement-only policies, with no rewards, no accepting of bribes, and no amnesty.

fred5678 on January 10, 2008 at 4:30 PM

No I did not:

You can pass local ordinances and get them to move from one state to another, and the down turn of the housing industry will obviously send many home. However, forcing a population of 12 to 20 million out of the US and into Mexico’s defective economy would be looked down upon by history (rightly or wrongly) as being as bad as the Armenian genocide

.

And thanks to LagunaDave, VDH apparently agrees with me:

If blanket amnesty is a losing issue, so also is mass deportation — the practicality and morality of which are rarely considered by those rightly calling for an end to illegal immigration. Busing every illegal alien back to Mexico right now might resemble the past messy partition of India and Pakistan, and reopen the issue in a way that Democrats can legitimately exploit

I guess us ancient history buffs think alike.
If you were talking about a few thousand, even a few hundred thousand, I would agree with you. The rule of law would require that they return. But we are talking about, according to you, THIRTY MILLION PEOPLE. That would be more than 4 cities the size of New York. Using economic coercion to force that many people back to a Mexican economy that would be utterly destroyed in the process would be both impossible and cruel.

It’s not a great deal and compromises my principles and under cuts the rule of law, but it is the best that we are ever going to be able to do. You know I’m right.

tommylotto on January 10, 2008 at 3:14 PM

You miss the point completely. I agree that we cannot expect 12 to 20 20 to 30 million illegals to self-deport. But we have to reverse the trend. Your policy will increase the trend.

I note you avoid replying to my specific points, reference ancient history, and ignore the progress made in Arizona, Oklahoma, and Tennessee – all of whose intelligent legislatures have implemented enforcement-only policies, with no rewards, no accepting of bribes, and no amnesty.

It’s WORKING. We should make this type of legislation federal law, instead of soliciting bribes. Why do you want to promote a policy that would reverse this progress? Hunter, Thompson, and Romney, in that order, are the only ones fighting for the rule of law and a sensible solution.

Back to work. It’s been fun.

What he describes is basically Rudy’s proposal:

1) Secure the border, using the accountability system that he used to slash crime in NYC to track progress and direct resources
2) Establish tamper-proof ID
3) Deport illegals who commit crimes immediately
4) Only after #1-3 is done, allow illegals who are already here to go to the back of the line to apply for residency, but they must pay back taxes, pay a fine, learn English and civics.

Rudy also released a crunchy, issue ad on taxes today.

fred5678 on January 10, 2008 at 2:33 PM

Fred, or whatever your real name is. You need to come to grips with this one fact. You are no going to get 12 to 20 million people to leave this country. It is not going to happen. You can pass local ordinances and get them to move from one state to another, and the down turn of the housing industry will obviously sent many home. However, forcing a population of 12 to 20 million out of the US and into Mexico’s defective economy would be look down upon by history (rightly or wrongly) as being as bad as the Armenian genocide. Our country simply does not have the political will to be that inhumane. The Romans were much more brutal and inhumane, but they too were powerless to stop the Vandals, Ostrogoths and other barbarians population waves. Those waves have been dwarfed by the size of the wave of population that has bubbled up over the last few decades over our southern border.

You can adopt an unreasonable hardline of “ya gotta go home,” but that will never happen. That position is doomed to loose, and if you really thought about it you would admit it. We can hardly fund our troops in time of war. We can authorize a fence, but not build it. Take a hard cold sober look at reality. It. Will. Never. Happen. Once you come to that realization, you can start to realistically bargain in the political process to get the best deal possible to preserve as much of the American way of life as possible for our children. Deport the criminals, end the grey labor market, identify those within our borders, require that they learn English and American History, increase the size of the fine. Make it tough so that those not committed would rather go home. Then crack down like hell on those who stay but don’t take advantage of the opportunity to legitimize themselves.

It’s not a great deal and compromises my principles and under cuts the rule of law, but it is the best that we are ever going to be able to do. You know I’m right.

Huck, Mitt, Thompson, McCain, Paul, #6 ruDy

Hey, thanks. Now, uh, sixth place would actually be even worse than fourth, right?

He finishes fourth in Iowa, and Fox News still picks him to appear in a debate over Ron Paul

Rudy finished 6th in Iowa

Huck, Mitt, Thompson, McCain, Paul, #6 ruDy

This from Iowa, a race ruDy was winning at one point last year.

Agreed though, if one person has gotten the benefit of a positive media exposure, it would be ruDy. They have been bashing EVERY other candidate.

Policy schmolicy. Here is his new tax plan. Here he is on pretty much everything else.

tommylotto on January 10, 2008 at 11:22 AM

Rudy is OK on most things, and a strong leader, but his immigration stance totally disqualifies him. You may have missed my reply to your last post on yesterday’s thread on Rudy’s Spanish ad. Here it is:
——————
It’s not MY nor YOUR government’s fault for the present sad situation; it is OUR government’s fault. Come, let us reason together:

12 to 20 million. You. Are. Dreaming.

You. Are. Insane. if you think repeating the same thing over and over again (SEVEN amnesties since 1986) will ever change the result: ever-increasing numbers of illegal border crosings.

Not with ICE, not with self-deportation.

Oh, but most emphatically, YES. New state laws in AZ, OK, and TN are causing illegals to flee those states, often BEFORE the laws went into effect. Check Outraged Patriots dotcom for LOTS of news stories, plus this post by our lovely and oh so intelligent host.

Your federal government literally told them if they get past the border they are home free.

I agree. We have to stop doing this. NOW.

It is your federal government’s fault they are here. This is an impossible task — much like governing NYC. You have to tackle it with reason.

I agree – stop the rewards – completely. No residency, no earned legalization, no drivers licenses, no in-state tuition, nothing but emergency medical care on the way home. Anything more is a reward.

Deport the criminals — all of them
Secure the border — completely
Identify all aliens coming into the country with biometric ID — they can work
Establish mandatory reliable easy to use employer verification

That will stop the bleeding

Sounds like Rudy’s sound bites. No, it won’t stop the bleeding; not without also STOPPING THE REWARDS. See ‘dog training’, previous post. Also see ‘SEVEN amnesties’, above. Also see ‘insane’, above.

but leave us with the 12 to 20 million illegals already here (and its our Federal government’s fault) — Nevertheless, many are worthy contributors to our economy and country.

By sending cash remittances to their home country, instead of recirculating the wages back into OUR economy, at over $20 B a year??

Offer the good ones

The ones avoiding taxes by accepting only cash (the IRS frowns on me doing this), using a stolen soc. sec. number (a felony), or a made up soc. sec. number (a $250,000 fine)?? Which method do the “good ones” use??

a path forward

Legalized residency? The same residency he already stole? Granting residency to an illegal alien is the same as a judge giving the stolen jewels to the robber.

pay a fine (high enough that it is not considered amnesty),

A one dollar fine makes it not an amnesty. It’s the REWARD of residency that’s the problem, not the $3000 fine bribe.

require them to hold a job and pay taxes for at least 5 years, know American history, and speak English — make it far tougher

blah, blah, sound bite, blah. I am all for granting complete amnesty to every illegal alien – I don’t want them in jail, I don’t want them in court, I don’t want them to pay a fine bribe – I just want them to leave. And I want those not yet here to stay home and improve their own country – and that won’t happen if we entice them with the example of an EIGHTH repeat of “legalized earned residency.”

It is easy to say over and over again, “ya gotta go home.” It feels good and feels right but IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

See above for lots of examples of this working already at the state level.

The massive population wave allowed by your federal government is just too great.

It will be even greater using your proven, flawed strategy.

That Genie will not go back into its bottle. We have been dealt a bad hand. We need to cut ourselves the best deal possible — unless, of course, you want to be accused of genocide.

GENOCIDE?? AZ, OK, and TN are committing GENOCIDE?? Better get the ACLU on that. Stat.

tommylotto on January 9, 2008 at 6:07 PM

Ollie North at Fred Thompson fundraiser….meet and greet last night….Endorsement in the offing?

ihasurnominashun on January 10, 2008 at 12:18 PM

Man that’d be great. Ollie should be running for Pres.

Vincenzo on January 10, 2008 at 12:54 PM

Hey, we’ve all been a bit testy at times. For good reason I might add.

Ollie North at Fred Thompson fundraiser….meet and greet last night….Endorsement Kiss of death in the offing?

ihasurnominash

Fixed it for you.

Rudy ad #2

csdeven on January 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM

Much better. For all my vote is worth as a San Mateo county voter, I might just choose ‘ol Rick as my write in.

Same mistake Obama’s campaign made with that snl halloween clip

Is this good enough?

csdeven on January 10, 2008 at 12:47 PM

Sorry, the. You must understand how much flack Rudy and his supporters get becuase he happened to be the Mayor on 9/11. The crap I have to dredge through on my boards is straight depressing.

I’ve always respected your criticisms of Rudy. They aren’t based in shameful smears of him like csdeven did.

Vincenzo on January 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Is this good enough?

Vincenzo on January 10, 2008 at 12:15 PM

Slow down cowboy. I support Rudy.

But that doesn’t mean I can’t poke fun at his campaign strategy.