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The Problem with Paul Updated

posted at 11:29 am on January 9, 2008 by Bryan
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We have a little unfinished business from yesterday. Allah had the post — TNR’s James Kirchick tracked down some old Ron Paul newsletters and found them…disturbing. Now, looking over Kirchick’s work, I have to agree with Ace that the TNR scribe steals some bases by including marginal quotes that aren’t on their face racist or crazy. It was, for instance, not insane to postulate that South Africa would become a killing ground after apartheid’s end. That’s not an argument for apartheid, by the way, or for maintaining the status quo there. It was a plausible prediction based on Africa’s terrible history of tribal and racial warfare, history that continues to this day in Zimbabwe, Sudan and elsewhere. Thankfully that prediction didn’t come to pass, and history records Nelson Mandela as the main reason why. By including that kind of material along with the truly objectionable material, Kirchick suggests a whole line of topics are entering a new taboo.

But even if you weed out the marginal stuff, there’s much, much more there and it’s bad. There’s support for David Duke.

While bashing King, the newsletters had kind words for the former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, David Duke. In a passage titled “The Duke’s Victory,” a newsletter celebrated Duke’s 44 percent showing in the 1990 Louisiana Republican Senate primary. “Duke lost the election,” it said, “but he scared the blazes out of the Establishment.” In 1991, a newsletter asked, “Is David Duke’s new prominence, despite his losing the gubernatorial election, good for anti-big government forces?” The conclusion was that “our priority should be to take the anti-government, anti-tax, anti-crime, anti-welfare loafers, anti-race privilege, anti-foreign meddling message of Duke, and enclose it in a more consistent package of freedom.” Duke is now returning the favor, telling me that, while he will not formally endorse any candidate, he has made information about Ron Paul available on his website.

There’s paranoid support for the militia movement.

In January 1995, three months before right-wing militants bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, a newsletter listed “Ten Militia Commandments,” describing “the 1,500 local militias now training to defend liberty” as “one of the most encouraging developments in America.” It warned militia members that they were “possibly under BATF [Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms] or other totalitarian federal surveillance” and printed bits of advice from the Sons of Liberty, an anti-government militia based in Alabama–among them, “You can’t kill a Hydra by cutting off its head,” “Keep the group size down,” “Keep quiet and you’re harder to find,” “Leave no clues,” “Avoid the phone as much as possible,” and “Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.”

There’s veiled anti-Semitism combined with rank stupidity.

Of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, a newsletter said, “Whether it was a setup by the Israeli Mossad, as a Jewish friend of mine suspects, or was truly a retaliation by the Islamic fundamentalists, matters little.”

Right. The actual perps and their motive “matters little,” except that Paul continually trots out the trope that the jihadis are motivated not by what their religion teaches them but by the fact that our troops protect their countries from other hostile countries. Surely even he can see that Mossad and al Qaeda would have different motives for attacking the US, even if he’s nutty enough to believe that Mossad would actually attack the US.

Paul’s defense of these newsletters has EVOLved over time, from the offending lines having been “taken out of context” to having been ghost-written by some unknown, not to him but to us, figure. Eric Dondero, who was Paul’s employee for years, says the ghost writer was Lew Rockwell. That’s very plausible; Paul and Rockwell are ideologically similar. Rockwell’s site is one of many online bastions for defenses of All Things Paul.

But here’s the thing about all of this. To borrow Paul’s spin on the 1993 WTC bombing, it actually does matter little if Paul wrote the crazy himself or had it ghostwritten under his own name. There’s a pattern developing with the Paul campaign that’s become too obvious to ignore. We have a pile of newsletters containing the more than occasional crazy. We have Paul being photographed with members of Stormfront, from whom he accepts donations. And we have Paul supporters celebrating terrorist Guy Fawkes on their big Ron Paul fundraiser day. And we have a mob of Paul supporters harassing Sean Hannity with obscenities. And despite the fact that Paul says he’s not a Truther, he has undeniably courted the Truther vote by hanging out with uber Truther Alex Jones.

Anything in the above paragraph, seen in isolation, is disturbing. But taken all together, it’s clarifying. Ron Paul isn’t just a “small government, constitutionalist libertarian.” I wish he was; that’s how he has long sold himself to the good people who have supported him all these years. But the truth is that he’s bad and many of his friends are worse. A vote for him is a vote for them. Yet Andrew Sullivan and his fellow prominent Paul supporters like NRO’s John Derbyshire remain blissfully unconcerned about it. This is serious stuff, but it hasn’t made a difference to them at all. Coming from any other candidate, and especially one they had not already publicly supported, it’s reasonable to expect that their reactions would be very, very different. Sullivan for one has treated terrorist propaganda about torture with far less caution than he’s showing with regard to Paul’s newsletters.

Back to the newsletter and then I’m done. Let’s take Paul’s latest defense at face value for a second. The best that can be said about it is that he mismanaged a newsletter and turned it over to cranks who don’t represent his views. Set aside that there’s a remarkable consistency between the views expressed in the newsletters and the views many of his supporters hold now. If Paul really didn’t write the most risible material in that newsletter, and if the ghostwriters really don’t represent his views, then he isn’t even competent enough to manage a newsletter in a way that keeps out the riffraff and represents his own thinking. Paul supporters still want to turn the executive branch of the government over to someone who exhibits this level of incompetence across a stretch of years?

I’m sorry, but that’s insane. Ron Paul has many honorable supporters among the crowd who genuinely believe that he’s just a small-government libertarian. Most of his supporters are probably of that stripe, and not part of the the Duke/Rockwell/Stormfront/Truther wing of the Paul movement at all. Now is the time for them to examine the evidence and choose whether continued support for Paul and his mob is wise or moral.

Update (AP): One of the oddest, most ominous things about this is that all of the newsletters quoted by TNR were published while Paul was a member of Congress. [Update: Not so, see below.] He’s been in office since 1976, in fact. In all that time, not one of his opponents thought to bring this stuff up? Or did they bring up, only to have it shrugged off by voters who don’t care about Paul’s association with the filthy dregs of American culture any more than the Paulnuts do?

One other thing. Paul was the money leader among the GOP candidates last quarter. He’s been something of a grassroots phenomenon for the past six months, at least. How come it took the assistant to the editor at TNR to break this open instead of some big media source? Which is to say, why is this nut given such a free ride?

Update (AP): Correction — Paul left Congress in 1985 and was reelected in 1996. Many of the newsletters were published during that period. So I amend my point. Why has it taken 10 years and five congressional elections for this crap to come out?

Update (bp): Well, some of this did come out in 1996 in the Houston Chronicle iirc. Paul was able to deflect it as statements taken out of context.

Update: Reason posts a round-up of response to the newsletters’ disclosure. Par for the course, Matthew Yglesias wins the dishonesty round. I’ve already noted Andrew Sullivan’s response in the post. The rest are interesting, especially Lew Rockwell’s non-denial. Granted, TNR has a very poor history of truthful journalism. But also granted, Kirchick has the goods in this story. Rockwell’s quoted response is non-responsive to the charges.


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Instapundit had a great comment yesterday about this:

Here’s my take: I’ll accept for the sake of argument the notion that he didn’t know that this stuff was in the newsletter. But I can’t imagine a responsible person permitting a publication under his name without reviewing it occasionally. I also can’t imagine a responsible person permitting a publication under his name without vetting the editor/publisher sufficiently to keep out the sort of whackjobs who would publish stuff like this. How can you expect anyone so careless with his own “brand” to be any more careful with the country’s “brand”?

lorien1973 on January 9, 2008 at 11:34 AM

Commenters, prepare for the blitzkrieg. Our new Paul pals need LebensRon!

Cuffy Meigs on January 9, 2008 at 11:36 AM

Which is to say, why is this nut given such a free ride?

So, in the presidential debates, the moderator can ask “how are you (republican candidate) going to get the vote of the 10% of your party who supported a racist neo-nazi?”

lorien1973 on January 9, 2008 at 11:38 AM

There’s support for David Duke.

Remember, he was running for President the same year Paul left office. Not to say I don’t loathe the little holocaust-denying Dinner Jacket-coddling puke. It’s just that as you had an amount of evangelicals backing Pat Robertson, it’s viable to think that David Duke was viewed by some in subsequent years as a real political idealist.

There’s paranoid support for the militia movement.

Again, in 1995, there was a lot of that. Ruby Ridge and Waco were still fresh in a lot of minds, and Clinton’s coziness with the UN didn’t help the growing number of people who felt animosity to the government in the days when the Soviet Union had just stopped being a threat, and radical Islam had yet to remind us who our real enemies were.

Most of his supporters are probably of that stripe, and not part of the the Duke/Rockwell/Stormfront/Truther wing of the Paul movement at all.

Ehhh…I would tend to disagree with that. My best friend, my trusted ally for most of my life, closer to me than my own brother, is a Paulnut. I’ve deduced that the large number of Paulnuts are in college, where conspiracy theories run wild. I’m afraid it really is that bad, and they won’t change. My best friend is by no means a nut, but he ignores pretty much every link I send him that shows Paul in anything less than a good light.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 11:38 AM

edit: My bad, Paul left office three years before Duke ran.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 11:39 AM

Now, looking over Kirchick’s work, I have to agree with Ace that the TNR scribe steals some bases by including marginal quotes that aren’t on their face racist or crazy.

That’s actually the problem with anti-Paul criticism. There is so many legitimate issues to point out, I don’t understand why people always have to exaggerate the issue or make conclusions on evidence they expect to manifest later. Like equating criticism of Israeli policy is akin to anti-Semitism. (That like saying criticism of Hillary is sexism).

Even things he dispels he gets little credit for. For example he has dismissed all 9/11 conspiracy theories on MTP. But that’s not the clip you all put up, as memory serves. I don’t really care, I’m not voting for Paul obviously and I think that he has to take political responsibility for his actions, because regardless if those letters were ghost-written or not, the political benefit would have come to him, so so must the cost. I just think making grand-sweeping charges on him, does little more than create an echo-chamber for anti-Paul sentiment. It’s not going to impact his supporters, and his supporters aren’t going to impact the election noticeably.

Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 11:40 AM

How come it took the assistant to the editor at TNR to break this open instead of some big media source? Which is to say, why is this nut given such a free ride?

They were saving it for the general. They wanted him in so they could turn 2008 into a landslide for the democratic presidential candidate.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 11:40 AM

Even if he didn’t write these newsletters, he had to read some if not most of them. Unless “corrections” were issued in subsequent newsletters, he condoned their content with his silence.

natesnake on January 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM

Tough choice.

Do I vote for a Bircheresque crank or one of many socialist cranks masquerading as Republicans?

Valiant on January 9, 2008 at 11:42 AM

It is no surprise that Paul is so beloved by the far-left. He is doing their work in undermining the ability of the U.S. to defend itself and shares their virulent anti-Semitism. However, the left is for the most part smart enough to disguise its widespread Jew-hatred under the rubric of “third-world liberation” vs. “first-world Zionist imperialism.” Thus the left can sanctimoniously condemn Paul’s “Fascist racism” while at the same time totally supporting his anti-Semetic views in practice. However, true conservatives should disown this dangerous clown for this and many other reasons.

ptolemy on January 9, 2008 at 11:43 AM

When it comes to racism and conspiracy theories, its really a chicken or the egg situation. It was a popular conspiracy in the 90s that unseen hands (you know who) were pushing the US towards a race war which would cause society to collapse and then be replaced by the New World Order.

BohicaTwentyTwo on January 9, 2008 at 11:46 AM

This whole thing makes me want to hang my head in shame. I admired Ron Paul as a politician for years, and was proud to have him representing Texas.

Today, I denounce him and disown him. May the best of his ideas someday find a spokesman with who has the interests of ALL Americans at heart.

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 11:47 AM

Why has it taken 10 years and five congressional elections for this crap to come out?

The area of the country that elects him agrees with this stuff.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:48 AM

The area of the country that elects him agrees with this stuff.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:48 AM

That’s a slander.

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 11:49 AM

This phenomenon seems akin to CAIR. Say and do things contrary to your public image and then denounce in public as “Paulophobia” when your history is brought up. True believers will look at this as propaganda but WTO and PNAC and will bring in more donations.

Like the CIA says, “the most committed wins”

I fear ALL true believers….

broker1 on January 9, 2008 at 11:52 AM

That’s a slander.

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 11:49 AM

Ok a large enough portion of the area he represents agrees with it. I have friends in and near his district. Many agree with his reasoning or at least the idea that people should be free to be racist bigots if they want to be.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:53 AM

I guess the bigger question here is how much longer does the GOP have to suffer racist radical fools like Ron Paul? If he wants to run for office, fine, clearly he has managed to raise funds. That doesn’t mean he has to be invited to the debates and given equal standing with the legitimate candidates.

highhopes on January 9, 2008 at 11:55 AM

Its sad that these newsletters came out and were either written by Paul or published under his name. This whole thing detracts from his overall message of personal freedom, smaller government and economic reform. If these writings were done by Paul or he was complacent in their publishing (it looks like he was) then I will be reconsidering my support for him in the election. However his overall message still has my support. It is sad that it has been tainted by these newsletters though

offroadaz on January 9, 2008 at 11:55 AM

Many agree with his reasoning or at least the idea that people should be free to be racist bigots if they want to be.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:53 AM

So you personally know people who read these newsletters, attributed their content to Ron Paul, and supported him because of it?

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM

then I will be reconsidering my support for him in the election

Kudos. That’s the appropriate thing to be sure.

Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 11:58 AM

Its sad that these newsletters came out and were either written by Paul or published under his name.

It’s sad that a man who publishes this racist and radical tripe (or allows his name to be used) is being treated like a legitimate candidate. David Duke had much of the same message as Paul’s “overall message of personal freedom, smaller government, and economic reform” It’s scary that Paul has managed to circulate in legitimate political circles just because he never wore a Ku Klux Klan hood.

I didn’t like Paul before but this anti-Semitic hate speech just convinces me the man is unfit for any public office.

highhopes on January 9, 2008 at 11:59 AM

Hot Air = Kos = HuffPo = CNN = Main Stream Media

The only difference between the folks here and the folks in the aforementioned organizations is that the people here simply have a different stance on some issues. They use the same tactics, the same misrepresentation of information, the same technique of obsessing about the negative aspects of someone they dislike while totally ignoring any negative aspect of those they support, and have no problem with using the force of government to enact THEIR particular brand of tyranny. It is almost comical to read Bryan’s sanctimonious declaration that support of Paul to be immoral. What does Bryan believe support of Rudy, Huck, McCain, Fred, or Mitt to be? Moral? Good?

Which is worse – A government that contains people of questionable integrity, motives, and values that allows people to live free and simply secures those liberties

or,

A government that contains people of questionable integrity, motives, and values that makes it its business to control, regulate, and manage virtually every aspect of your life?

The true insane aspect of this debate is that the anti-Paul folks on this site seem to have the naive and dangerously childish idea that the other Republicans in this race are all honorable, full of integrity, small government, conservatives that will shrink government, lower taxes, fix social security, etc. It takes big balls and ignorance to blast Paul without blasting with equal vigor all of the other candidates in this race.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Many agree with his reasoning or at least the idea that people should be free to be racist bigots if they want to be.

bj1126

Individuals have a right to be racist bigots.

And we have a right to not elect them to any post … including dog catcher.

Kristopher on January 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM

So you personally know people who read these newsletters, attributed their content to Ron Paul, and supported him because of it?

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 11:57 AM

They didn’t read the news letters but definitely didn’t find a whole lot wrong with them when I pointed them out. The anti-semitic stuff bothered them but the rest of it really didn’t.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 12:02 PM

Still not convinced that Ron Paul is a bigot. This is on par with O’Reilly’s “motherfu**ing iced tea” line.

Question: Why all the sudden are we promoting the liars at TNR? Secondly, I haven’t seen any signs of racism from Paul in the past 15 years. If we’re going to go back 20 some years, lets talk about what Mormon’s believed about blacks, etc.

Ian on January 9, 2008 at 12:03 PM

The area of the country that elects him agrees with this stuff.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:48 AM

Interesting comment. Got anything to back that up?
I wasn’t aware I agree with Chuck Hagel or Bob Kerry.

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:05 PM

Why all the sudden are we promoting the liars at TNR?

So your position is that they concocted these newsletters?

The whole Beauchamp thing was about hammering TNR for not providing evidence. In this case they’ve provided evidence.

Jim Treacher on January 9, 2008 at 12:06 PM

It is almost comical to read Bryan’s sanctimonious declaration that support of Paul to be immoral.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Could you link to the post you’re reading? What I read in this post was:

Now is the time for [Ron Paul's honorable supporters] to examine the evidence and choose whether continued support for Paul and his mob is wise or moral.

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 12:06 PM

It takes big balls and ignorance to blast Paul without blasting with equal vigor all of the other candidates in this race.

Join the militia rEVOLution!

Allahpundit on January 9, 2008 at 12:07 PM

I for years have been a Paul supporter. I have been a registered Libertarian since 2000. But I just couldn’t bring myself to get behind Paul. I agree with much of what he has too say, but he has gotten to chummy with too many cranks, crack pots and straight out psychos for my comfort. I personally believe that many who are propping Paul up are simply doing so in order to get him to run 3rd party and divide the conservative vote. I believe on election day they will abandon him and vote Dem.

Living in Austin TX I am in Alex Jones country. These dolts drink Kool Aid by the gallons. I personally know committed Dems who all of a sudden are all behind Paul, lends to my theory.

I was visiting with some very close friends in Franklin TN this week and they are Paul supporters. They both teach in classical Christian schools and are very involved in the pro-life movement. They find it hard to believe that truthers are involved with Paul, and that Paul would accept their support. That stated to me that they had no idea who Alex Jones was until I told them about him in some emails. They are good Christian people who love freedom, but they live in a small southern town and they are not exposed to the filth that has attached itself to Paul,or that Paul has attached himself too. I think that much of Paul’s support comes from these good conservative folks who just have no idea.

RobertInAustin on January 9, 2008 at 12:08 PM

They didn’t read the news letters but definitely didn’t find a whole lot wrong with them when I pointed them out. The anti-semitic stuff bothered them but the rest of it really didn’t.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 12:02 PM

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you here, but could you clarify something for me, please?

You said:

Many agree with his reasoning or at least the idea that people should be free to be racist bigots if they want to be.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 11:53 AM

Do you mean to say that they had not read the newsletters, and were NOT aware of RP’s reasoning until you pointed out the content of the newsletters?

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM

It takes big balls and ignorance to blast Paul without blasting with equal vigor all of the other candidates in this race.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM

Can you show evidence the other candidates are such poor administrators they can’t even manage a small newsletter? And, that’s the kindest interpetation.

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM

But the truth is that he’s bad and many of his friends are worse.

Thanks for calling a spade a spade, Bryan!

A vote for him is a vote for them.

Yep.

Christoph on January 9, 2008 at 12:12 PM

Join the militia rEVOLution!

Allah – If you ever lose your job here, I am sure you could easily send your resume to Kos, HuffPo, CNN, or CBS and get a job immediately. They are always in the market for folks like you.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM

I appreciate Brian’s attempt at rational and moral clarity. He makes good points. Indeed, some things really ought to trump policy, and if you find that David Duke is your policy bro’ you might want to steer clear of him, for your sake, his sake, and the victims of his evil. Alas, libertarians don’t see things that way.

There’s a pattern developing with the Paul campaign that’s become too obvious to ignore.

Here is where Brian self-righteousness blinds him to another and larger pattern, and one that drives most Ron Paul supporters:

The American government is out of control.

Spending is out of control.

The deficit is massive.

Intrusion into privacy is daily increasing.

The borders are not secure.

Citizens are made to travel under ridiculous and ineffective security measures.

Thousands of Americans have been killed in Iraq.

Tens of thousands of innocents have been killed in Iraq.

Four million Iraqis have been forced to leave their homes.

The surge is not working and anyone who says that it is is either ignorant or lying.

All this because of a war that America started for no other reason than that a group of ideologues decided it was time to change the Middle East.

For months America has been making threatening overtures to Iran, and were it not for the NIE, we might be bombing Iran right now.

America has begun rekindling Cold War rhetoric toward Russia.

America continually sees China as an enemy and a threat, all the while it sells its economic soul to it.

America has over 700 military bases around the world.

America’s infrastructure is old.

It’s domestic emergency response is feeble.

Crime is a major problem. Drug use is a major problem. Divorce is high even in Christian circles. Single parenthood is high.

Meanwhile, we think the world wants to be like us, or that we must export God’s blessings on America to other nations whom God has apparently passed over.

Do you see a pattern? Doesn’t this pattern explain why Ron Paul supporters tend to be outsiders from the political mainstream — even the dregs?

So what is more evil: that Americans are ignorant war lovers who have little problem ruining the lives of millions of innocent people in a country that most Americans can’t find on a map? And that these same Americans want to continue this throughout the world? Or that a politician printed some uncomfortable views in a newsletter twenty years ago?

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:13 PM

Would you expound a bit on Iran’s lack of navy or army and how they are no threat to us?

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:18 PM

On the one hand, the man had a series of newsletters published under his name with a bunch of racist, crackpot theories therein. On the other hand, his campaign has a blimp.

A f*cking blimp, people.

Ron Paul–the only serious candidate for President.

Sean M. on January 9, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Do you mean to say that they had not read the newsletters, and were NOT aware of RP’s reasoning until you pointed out the content of the newsletters?

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 12:11 PM

Yes in fact they have more of a problem with his anti-war stance than his racist issues. I mean they knew of his reasoning but weren’t aware of the news letters. It had been an issue before and they sort of shrugged it off. Right now at least the people I know have more of an issue with his foreign policy than any of the racist stuff.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Would you expound a bit on Iran’s lack of navy or army and how they are no threat to us?

I’ll do it. I disagree with the analysis, but when saying they have no army – he means in comparison to the power of ours – common use as in nothing to speak of, not worth mentioning etc.

The threat, as he sees it, is to our shores. They can’t hit us conventionally, and he is thinking in a bit of box, conventionally.

Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 12:22 PM

So what is more evil: that Americans are ignorant war lovers who have little problem ruining the lives of millions of innocent people in a country that most Americans can’t find on a map? And that these same Americans want to continue this throughout the world? Or that a politician printed some uncomfortable views in a newsletter twenty years ago?

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM

I agree with everything you said. Pauls overall message is good, but some of his supporters and maybe even himself (if the newsletters are true) reflect very poof judgement and questionable ethics

offroadaz on January 9, 2008 at 12:23 PM

I saw this video a few months ago. It covers Paul’s past racism pretty well and is funny!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ror5nYEo8M

Andy from Beaverton on January 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM

On the other hand, his campaign has a blimp.

See, that’s factually inaccurate. A statement used to deride his judgment. The blimp was organized and funded by supporters, not by the campaign. It’s not the same at all – it’s one big lawn sign.

Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM

It was clearly obvious during the ABC NH debates that Paul is a raging loon. Theres really no excuse for anyone to support him.

Out of touch. Bigtime.

NickTx on January 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM

The surge is not working and anyone who says that it is is either ignorant or lying.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM

Do you prefer the lime or the grape flavor-aid?

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM

@ Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Its no use. Dont try to explain things. I have explained the same things to the same people dozens of times on here, and they are either ignorant or plainly ignoring the truth to get in a cheap jab at RP.

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM

@ MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM

I think what he means is, how do you define “working”. If you define “working” as getting slightly better from hundreds of American dead per month, then sure, its WORKING. But if you define “working” as actually getting levels of violence down to acceptable levels, it is FAR FAR off.

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM

@ NickTx on January 9, 2008 at 12:24 PM

Funny, I said the same thing about Giuliani, Huckabee especially, and McCain.

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM

So did I

NickTx on January 9, 2008 at 12:29 PM

The surge is not working and anyone who says that it is is either ignorant or lying.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM

Sorry, I just want to bring this up again. They are saying they are right, and you are ignorant or lying if you disagree.

…and these people claim to value the Constitution, like free speech?

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM

The true insane aspect of this debate is that the anti-Paul folks on this site seem to have the naive and dangerously childish idea that the other Republicans in this race are all honorable, full of integrity, small government, conservatives that will shrink government, lower taxes, fix social security, etc. It takes big balls and ignorance to blast Paul without blasting with equal vigor all of the other candidates in this race.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:00 PM

I’m all for a lot of the goals that Ron Paul has, but you have to be naive to think that he can make even a dent in the system if he were elected. Someone like Newt Gingrich might be able to accomplish some of the stuff that Paul touts, but Paul doesn’t have the political skills to get the job done.

Snidely Whiplash on January 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM

But if you define “working” as actually getting levels of violence down to acceptable levels, it is FAR FAR off.

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM

.
What is your definition of ‘acceptable levels’?

News2Use on January 9, 2008 at 12:31 PM

But if you define “working” as actually getting levels of violence down to acceptable levels, it is FAR FAR off.

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:28 PM

A lot of people think one person dying in a war is unacceptable. In terms of wars in history, including Vietnam, the Korean War, and both World Wars, we’re losing very few troops. Every one is a tragedy, but soldiers die in war. They have since time immemorial, and refusing to fight simply means the soldiers who are surviving instead get slaughtered when they lay their weapon down.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:32 PM

I mean they knew of his reasoning but weren’t aware of the news letters. It had been an issue before and they sort of shrugged it off. Right now at least the people I know have more of an issue with his foreign policy than any of the racist stuff.

bj1126 on January 9, 2008 at 12:21 PM

Thanks for the clarification and confirmation. I really have to hand it to TNR for shining light on an aspect of RP that seems to have been known locally, but not outside his district, much less nationally, until now. I feel like I should have known. I feel sick and betrayed.

RushBaby on January 9, 2008 at 12:32 PM

The fact that the GOP allows this fruitcake and his cultist followers, as well as the Open Borders McBackstabber to define it’s identity belies the drift towards irrelevancy. The GOP may be doomed.

davecatbone on January 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM

muyoso on January 9, 2008 at 12:26 PM

I understand yoru point. The desire to be a part of an echo chamber is a very compelling phenomena both in life and on the net. But while I’ve registered at several sites, but this is the only one I regularly comment at – and that is because I have felt that Bryan and AP are more intellectually honest than the average pundits. I have an interest in trying to reflect that in the comments and to encourage that by example. The moment that it becomes apparent that reasoned dialog makes no difference, then I have no reason to comment here. I think it does.

Spirit of 1776 on January 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM

There’s allot of problems with Ron Paul. One is that is followers reflect his beliefs. They are drunk on libertarian altruism. (figure that one out).

Here’s Ron Paul’s latest stunt. World’s Highest Billboard.

Egfrow on January 9, 2008 at 12:35 PM

The surge is not working and anyone who says that it is is either ignorant or lying.

Who knew Harry Reid joined the rEVOLution.

BohicaTwentyTwo on January 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM

The blame America first crowd rears its ugly head on this thread, in support of a racist. How patriotic.

infidel on January 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM

Headline: The Problem with Paul

It should read: Problem 8,371 with Paul

Hollowpoint on January 9, 2008 at 12:38 PM

Would you expound a bit on Iran’s lack of navy or army and how they are no threat to us?

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:18 PM

No, would you please expound upon how you can manage to get out of bed in the morning while living with the fear that the Iranians are outside the door waiting to cut your head off?

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM

This is just too bad, as there are so many things Ron Paul has said that I agree with.

I hope he goes away before he causes the republicans real damage, as they have a hideous tendency to self-destruct.

Dave R. on January 9, 2008 at 12:45 PM

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:30 PM

After writing that I knew I should have qualified it with: If the surge is working, then we ought to ask, “Working toward what?”

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM

The blame America first crowd rears its ugly head on this thread, in support of a racist. How patriotic.

infidel on January 9, 2008 at 12:37 PM

So does the never blame america crowd

Its naive to think that we dont contribute to the problems we face. We have started half-wars since the 90s and left before finishing the job only to have to go back years later. Weve set up puppet governments in countries only to wonder why the country isnt stable and is a breeding ground for terrorist.

We need to rexamine how are country acts on the world stage and focus on our issues at home before we try to solve the worlds problems.

offroadaz on January 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM

bryan, that was actually a decent and fairminded approach to this sickening scandal. good post.

jummy on January 9, 2008 at 12:47 PM

No, would you please expound upon how you can manage to get out of bed in the morning while living with the fear that the Iranians are outside the door waiting to cut your head off?

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM

Exactly. Big bad-as* Americans cowering because of … Iran. Kind of makes the Cold War seem almost ancient. That’s American education for you — another thing we think God has blessed us with and that we must export to the masses overseas.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM

“motherf@#king iced tea”
hahahahahahahaahh

RMC1618 on January 9, 2008 at 12:48 PM

Thousands of Americans have been killed in Iraq.

Tens of thousands of innocents have been killed in Iraq.

Four million Iraqis have been forced to leave their homes.

The surge is not working and anyone who says that it is is either ignorant or lying.

All this because of a war that America started for no other reason than that a group of ideologues decided it was time to change the Middle East.

For months America has been making threatening overtures to Iran, and were it not for the NIE, we might be bombing Iran right now.

America has begun rekindling Cold War rhetoric toward Russia.

America continually sees China as an enemy and a threat, all the while it sells its economic soul to it.

Do you see a pattern? Doesn’t this pattern explain why Ron Paul supporters tend to be outsiders from the political mainstream — even the dregs?

So what is more evil: that Americans are ignorant war lovers who have little problem ruining the lives of millions of innocent people in a country that most Americans can’t find on a map? And that these same Americans want to continue this throughout the world? Or that a politician printed some uncomfortable views in a newsletter twenty years ago?

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM

The only pattern I see here is the wilful ignorance of a Paul supporter. It is your rhetoric that wouldn’t be out of place in a Kos/NYT post.

The vast majority of those killed in Iraq have been by Islamic fundamentalists and fanatics. In security terms it is far better to fight them on their own soil than have them come to us. The surge so obviously is working that everyone wonders why it wasn’t tried earlier. The fall in violence has been ASTONISHING. If others had taken as hard a line on Iran as the US, they would never have got so close to building an atomic weapon. The NIE report showed that the Iranians suspended building at the same time as the Iraq liberation, knowing that our military was right on their doorstep. It is Russia who has been rekindling the Cold War rhetoric; the Administration’s response has been remarkably restrained.

Paul’s message is NOT good, unless you want to be left at the mercy of every imperialist nation and opportunist fanatic on the planet. Fortunately, his tripe doesn’t stand a hope in hell of being implemented.

Pax americana on January 9, 2008 at 12:50 PM

After writing that I knew I should have qualified it with: If the surge is working, then we ought to ask, “Working toward what?”

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:46 PM

Sorry, but you laid out robotic lines that I have heard before, and the fact that you put out such a firmly untenable view that anyone could disagree with you and not be a liar or ignorant person is telling of you. So is this:

Big bad-as* Americans cowering

Go back to Alex Jones and your thermite plots. Where were you when Randy Weaver was getting shot at? You Ronulans are either the true nuts of the country or you’re going with the flavor of the month in “fight the establishment”. See ya.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 12:52 PM

Exactly. Big bad-as* Americans cowering because of … Iran. Kind of makes the Cold War seem almost ancient. That’s American education for you — another thing we think God has blessed us with and that we must export to the masses overseas.

Typical. If you can’t even bring yourself to argue an issue with honesty, why bother to argue it at all?

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 12:54 PM

The GOP may be doomed.

davecatbone on January 9, 2008 at 12:34 PM

No, dude, the country’s doomed. Read a history book written by someone other than Bill Bennett, Max Boot, Victor Hanson, or Walter Russell Mead, for Christ’s sake.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:55 PM

“Duke lost the election,” it said, “but he scared the blazes out of the Establishment.”

I understand this. Libertarians believe that problems with this government (socialism running rampant) need to be solved from the outside, not from the inside. Scaring (defeating) the establishment is what it would take to do this. This is understandable and I think taken way out of context. It’s not an endorsement of David Duke unless that’s what you’re looking for for nefarious reasons. The same thing was written about Jesse Ventura, he’s just not a despicable figure.

RWLA on January 9, 2008 at 12:56 PM

South Africa has indeed become a killing ground but not in the way that people expected. ZA right now has the highest murder rate in the world. 114.8 murders per 100000 people. So if you live in a city of a million people, your city would have had over a thousand murders last year. There were over 5 thousand murders in just the greater Johannesburg area last year.

crosspatch on January 9, 2008 at 12:57 PM

The vast majority of those killed in Iraq have been by Islamic fundamentalists and fanatics

Indeed. But who started this war? We did. Thus, we’re ultimately responsible.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 12:44 PM

So, they are no threat to us or our allies? Maybe we shouldn’t have allies. Would you agree with that? And, I can believe Dr. Paul when he says Iran has no armed forces? I don’t recall him putting it in relative terms, as a commenter above explained he really meant.

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM

Damn I must have missed something, where’d all the Paul supporters come from all of a sudden? I’m gonna have to change my username pronto. Paul should have run as a libertarian IMO. Guess he wanted the exposure and all, and I understand that, but he ain’t a Republican in my books. Neither is Huck.

RW Wacko on January 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM

offroadaz on January 9, 2008 at 11:55 AM

reality check:
Louis Farrakhan is lampooned and derided as a fool by most conservatives and many liberals. But his message is similar to Ron Paul’s. One could call it uplifting and positive…ignoring the blatantly racist crap and stuff about spaceships of course.

I doubt you or anyone coming to Ron Paul’s defense would spend two seconds defending Farrakhan.

Personally I think that a lot of people who subscribe to these tangentially racist movements really like the racial rhetoric.

The Race Card on January 9, 2008 at 1:00 PM

But who started this war?

You know who!

Jim Treacher on January 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM

RW Wacko on January 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Two weeks ago I was surprised to see the lack of comments here at HotAir. And then I noticed the open registration the other day for comments. Makes complete sense, and good for Michelle, et al, for doing it. I haven’t seen threads with more than 200 comments in months. This past few days there have been at least three.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Jim Treacher on January 9, 2008 at 1:01 PM

Nice try. Would that it were as easy as pointing a finger.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:03 PM

Indeed. But who started this war? We did. Thus, we’re ultimately responsible.

Sure, sure. Much better if we had left the lunatic in charge of Iraq to continue bribing the UN, murdering and raping his citizens as it pleased him, and exporting terrorism to other parts of the world. See, we had him “in a box” where he could no longer attack other countries or use/manufacture weapons of mass destruction. In fact, we should just pull back to fortress America and ignore what has happened in the past when we did that.

Screw the rest of the world! Ron Paul ‘08!

or if you prefer

Let us again tie our economy to a shiny rock we dig out of the ground! Ron Paul ‘08!

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Would that it were as easy as pointing a finger.

Oh, go ahead. You know you want to!

Jim Treacher on January 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Indeed. But who started this war? We did. Thus, we’re ultimately responsible.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM

I believe Saddam invaded Kuwait, then refused to make good on his promises as a condition of truce, and ignored all the U.N. mandates. That’s how the war started. I realize RP would have preferred to let the Kuwait citizens die and Saddam to then take over Saudi Arabia and ensure a stranglehold on the world’s fossil fuel supply. Or do I have that wrong?

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM

Two weeks ago I was surprised to see the lack of comments here at HotAir. And then I noticed the open registration the other day for comments. Makes complete sense, and good for Michelle, et al, for doing it. I haven’t seen threads with more than 200 comments in months. This past few days there have been at least three.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM

Well, you’re also convinced that people who disagree with you are lying or ignorant, so it would surprise me that you’ve ignored the debate and Fred-related threads that regularly got more than 200 comments for the past two weeks.

MadisonConservative on January 9, 2008 at 1:06 PM

Paul should have run as a libertarian IMO. Guess he wanted the exposure and all, and I understand that, but he ain’t a Republican in my books. Neither is Huck.

Huck is DEFINITELY a Republican, but you’re right about Dr. Paul NOT being a Republican. He’s not a socialist, so how could he be a GOP member?

RWLA on January 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Makes me wonder if Ron Paul’s $400 million in earmarks were similarly ghostwritten.

“Hey, it wasn’t me who put those into a spending bill! Nope, nuh uh…it was a ghostwriter using my name!”

JohnTant on January 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM

Paul should have run as a libertarian IMO.

boy, do you have it right.
what a mess for the GOP.
someone should have stepped in and diverted his parasitic campaign as a Rep.
of course, once he was implanted, Soros and other wack-jobs donated lots of $$$ is see he’d be around to haunt the Reps.
this is very poor GOP stewardship.

jimmer on January 9, 2008 at 1:07 PM

So, they are no threat to us or our allies? Maybe we shouldn’t have allies. Would you agree with that? And, I can believe Dr. Paul when he says Iran has no armed forces? I don’t recall him putting it in relative terms, as a commenter above explained he really meant.

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 12:58 PM

I believe that it is you should expound upon how the Iranians are a threat to us? I believe it to be part of the Founding Principles that we do not entangle ourselves in foreign alliances. If I remember correctly, the last war that Iran fought was against Iraq – the place we just invaded. Hmmmm. . . that’s strange – we once supported Iraq against Iran, and now we are fighting in Iraq. Sounds like we may have contributed to our own problems there. No. . .it can’t be. If there is one thing that I have learned from this site it is this: We are always right. We don’t cause our own problems. Only blame America first people say that. There must be some other explanation.

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 1:08 PM

Read a history book written by someone other than Bill Bennett, Max Boot, Victor Hanson, or Walter Russell Mead,

Sure, but I doubt that Marc Trachtenberg, John Lewis Gaddis, Robert Conquest, Paul Johnson, Paul Hogan or Alan Milward would be much to your liking either since they aren’t in the blame America first, last, and always crowd.

You Paul-bots are so darned predictable.

PimFortuynsGhost on January 9, 2008 at 1:10 PM

There must be some other explanation.

Yes, in your case I believe it’s “Mommy smoked during pregnancy.”

Jim Treacher on January 9, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Damn I must have missed something, where’d all the Paul supporters come from all of a sudden? I’m gonna have to change my username pronto.

RW Wacko on January 9, 2008 at 12:59 PM

Two words: Open registration.

I wouldn’t worry about changing your handle, though–you’ve been here a long time, and in any event you’ll be judged on the merits of what you write anyway. Nobody’s likely to confuse you for a Ronulan.

ReubenJCogburn on January 9, 2008 at 1:11 PM

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 1:05 PM

You know all the tired old (yet completely valid) arguments that refute your points, so I don’t need to lay them out again.

The bottom line is that this war was not necessary, it’s wrong, and it’s evil. And if it’s the best that this country can come up with geopolitically, then we’re pretty messed up.

I’m not a leftist; I’m not a Ron Paul supporter (at least I wouldn’t have voted for him). I’m a conservative concerned that we are on a one way road to disaster.

The level of war-cheerleading, ignorance, self-interest, and blood lust, that exists in the Republican Party is staggering. It has no business calling itself conservative. We are all Trotskyists now. Just ask Chris Hitchens.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:11 PM

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 1:08 PM

The ignorance of the world is strong with you. Embrace it. Help to spread the ignorance.

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM

boy, do you have it right.
what a mess for the GOP.
someone should have stepped in and diverted his parasitic campaign as a Rep.
of course, once he was implanted, Soros and other wack-jobs donated lots of $$$ is see he’d be around to haunt the Reps.
this is very poor GOP stewardship.

The Texas GOP tried more than once to defeat him in Congressional elections, and failed.
Where does all of this talk about Soros come from? I don’t see any evidence of moveon or Soros supporting him.

RWLA on January 9, 2008 at 1:12 PM

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:02 PM

200 comment threads consisting of arguing with Ronulans don’t add much. Some of us will probably spend more time elsewhere.

a capella on January 9, 2008 at 1:13 PM

as a libertarian who stands in complete opposition to Dr. Paul’s foreign policy, i don’t want him to run as a libertarian (sorry wacko) to me, he fits perfectly along side the other republican candidates. i just don’t want people to associate his crazyness with all libertarians. as much as i salivate at the thought of having some of his domestic policies enacted, i cannot vote for him, leaving me to look (depressingly) at the other candidates.

RMC1618 on January 9, 2008 at 1:14 PM

King of the Britons on January 9, 2008 at 1:08 PM

Ouch. That hurts my brain. You’re alluding to history and men who were educated and who truly understood and mastered the roots of liberty and applied those roots to the American order.

Now quick: think of Huck, Mitt, McCain, and Fred! and tell me if evolution is a valid theory.

The current crop of candidates on both sides are the equivalent of comic book characters.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:17 PM

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:11 PM

You know all the tired old (yet completely valid) arguments that refute your points, so I don’t need to lay them out again.

Actually, what I know is that there are good arguments on both side of the equation over the question of whether we should make war with Iraq or not. I also know that the point is moot since we did. Perhaps that’s why you are confused. You still think it’s about whether we should, rather than what we should be doing now that we did.

The bottom line is that this war was not necessary, it’s wrong, and it’s evil. And if it’s the best that this country can come up with geopolitically, then we’re pretty messed up.

But letting an avowed enemy of the US, an exporter of terrorism, a madman run one of the worlds oil powers is not wrong or evil. I see. The idea that this country was going to let Saddam hang around after 9/11 is just naive.

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Ron Paul really has a ton of explaining to do, and the scary thing is that his followers approach the whole subject of Stormfront very lightly. Like I posted here last week or so (and was accussed of supporting Ron Paul) one of his supporters told me that Stormfront is to white people what the NAACP is to black people.

I replied that the NAACP doesn’t ask for the inhalation of white people and the supporter was perplexed at best. Which is the problem with this people supporting Paul, they really haven’t a clue who and what they are really really supporting. They have no idea who he is, who is behind him – they just think in all boils down to America sucks and he is going to be the big changer/cleaner/fixer of it all.

Now granted some of those supporters may just believe America’s ills are due to my type and all the other jews and blacks and whatever – anyone who is not pure in their eyes. I am not doubting that. I think there may be some Aryan factors going on under the sheets.

AprilOrit on January 9, 2008 at 1:21 PM

The idea that this country was going to let Saddam hang around after 9/11 is just naive.

Defense Guy on January 9, 2008 at 1:18 PM

Our government had already had a policy in place calling for the removal of Sadam. 9-11 just provided the public support and justification they needed to implement it.

offroadaz on January 9, 2008 at 1:24 PM

John Lewis Gaddis, Robert Conquest, Paul Johnson

Haven’t done more than browse Gaddis. Love Conquest though his best work is decades behind him — Harvest of Sorrow is a classic and should be required reading in high schools; his Dragons of Expectation was unreadable. Johnson is a hack that I’ve had to suffer reading — both editions of Modern Times; Intellectuals was good for its day; he needs to update it, but he won’t: it might implicate his patrons.

Johnson loves empire. But, you see, America is not his country, so why we would be taking his advice is beyond me. Niall Ferguson is the same. He’s beside himself that we don’t do empire very well.

Try John Lukacs.

Drum on January 9, 2008 at 1:25 PM

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