thejackal on December 28, 2007 at 8:37 PM

yes but it has to start somewhere. Missionaries are some of the most couragous people I have known. thru out the ages they have gone where others fear to tread. There is nothing like a religious zealot to fight another religious zealot. His/Her faith is absolute. Yes the Jahadists have there’s but people tend to forget that Christianity was spread to most of the known world also. the PC crowd is so afraid to call this war on terror what it is. It is a crusade by Islam to export their religion. This war has been going on since their prophet rode out of the desert.

We have seen the results of Islam being left alone without any competing worldviews or religious views to question it. You can not fight religous war with secularism alone. You must have something able to replace the religious part of the human spirit.

It is no small matter that all muslim countries outlaw other religions.

Correct.

That is because Islam can not stand against other religions when they are engaged.

If by engaged you mean that the common citizen, if allowed a choice between conflicting ideologies, would most likely choose Christianity over barbarism Islam, you might be correct.

You want freedom and self rule. Christianity has proven over the course of 500 years to be the bedrock in which these two things can happen.

The bedrock? I’m not quite sold on that.

Send in the missionaries.

So they can get slaughtered? Are you serious? Or are you just suggesting that, over the long run an infusion of alternative religious belief would prove beneficial (as I assume you mean)?

Do you think it would sit idly by while it’s lifeblood is being educated against it? Ask Mr. Islam at the Pentagon what he thinks.

The short term does look very bleak, as the other commenters have noted. I think this whole episode brings us closer to conflict with the true root of Islamic radicalism, which is Saudi Arabia’s support and promotion of Wahhabi Islam and Sharia.

Even a spectacular military operation to secure Pakistan’s nukes (assuming it could even be done) will be a short-term fix if the entire population is yearning for the return of the Taliban.

We’re forced to work with the foundations that we find.

To properly educate away the “bad change happening now” requires the time that Gerard says is not available. We don’t have enough time to change the nature of that foundation. Qutb didn’t have an identical impediment. He was working with a centuries-old foundation built for his demonstrated purposes.

IOW, ‘education,’ that is, Western Education, won’t do what you (and we) would like it to do in the time frame allotted. It’s simply impossible. Not saying that it should be tried, but don’t look for results in your life time.

In the meantime, something else will have to be tried for this Islamist-majority/nuclear state. :::shudders:::

The point is that one can’t build on a sandy foundation (no pun intended).

baldilocks on December 28, 2007 at 4:24 PM

Well that’s certainly true but we can’t go around replacing foundations. It might have worked for the Babylonians but wouldn’t and couldn’t work now. We’re forced to work with the foundations that we find.

Bryan on December 28, 2007 at 4:06 PM

What I think folks are wondering is whether that outside help will take lasting hold. Things look good in Iraq but whether this will last has yet to be proven. And I’m not an expert on these two countries, but Pakistan seems like a bigger pile of illiteracy and, therefore, Islamic Fascism than Iraq ever was.

The point is that one can’t build on a sandy foundation (no pun intended).

baldilocks on December 28, 2007 at 4:03 PM

Right. My point is that bad change is happening now and good change is not going to happen without some outside help, but it very much needs to happen, and in a way that can last.

There’s a hearts and minds aspect to defusing radicalism that most of you seem to be missing, though, and that’s the point of this post.

Why do the caterpillar and the ant have to be enemies? One eats leaves, and the other eats caterpillars. Oh, I see now. -Jack Handy

If any of you have a better idea that might stand a chance of being applied in the real world, let’s hear it.

If you’re hoping for a Martin Luther figure to reform Islam from within, that ain’t gonna happen.

elgeneralisimo is thinking less Martin Luther and more Ataturk…

Bryan on December 28, 2007 at 3:47 PM

With Qutb in mind and the assertion that education/change must spring from within a given society in order to take lasting hold, it sounds as though Pakistan is doomed, unless is reasonable to predict that some other type of reform could spring organically from the sort of society which Pakistan is. I think that was Gerard’s (vanderleun) and Terry Ann’s point.

terryannonline on December 28, 2007 at 3:05 PM

Change does have to come from within, but the kind of change we want won’t come with an Islamic Martin Luther. In my opinion we already have a “reformation” figure for Islam. His name is Sayyd Qutb. He’s dead but his disciple, Osama bin Laden, is doing what religious reformers tend to do: Taking the religion back to its textual and spiritual roots, with all the attendant consequences that go along with that. That, we don’t need. But that reformation is what the Pakistani madrassas are serving and spreading, and the rising radicalism we’re seeing and fighting is one consequence of that.

terryannonline on December 28, 2007 at 3:05 PM

What she said.

If you’re hoping for a Martin Luther figure to reform Islam from within, that ain’t gonna happen.

But doesn’t change have to happen from within? For example, there are some that say that America needs to change politically and culturally. But that change has to come from the American people, not from an outside source.

If you’re hoping for a Martin Luther Ron Paul figure to reform Islam from within, that ain’t gonna happen will be here in 09!.

Bryan on December 28, 2007 at 2:29 PM

Muuuch better!

vanderleun on December 28, 2007 at 1:52 PM

I’m educated. No crack pipe involved, either. There’s a hearts and minds aspect to defusing radicalism that most of you seem to be missing, though, and that’s the point of this post. If any of you have a better idea that might stand a chance of being applied in the real world, let’s hear it.

If you’re hoping for a Martin Luther figure to reform Islam from within, that ain’t gonna happen.

Pakistan, like most things involving the religion of peace, is an illogical, savage place. Maybe, we just have to accept that. Sometimes, meddling makes things worse. I wish that I had the answers. But, sometimes, you just can’t do a damn thing. 75% of this world is death, famine, corruption, civil war and genocide. That’s just the way it is. And there’s nothing that we can do about it.

Education won’t cut it in Pakistan

I agree. I’m pretty sure Osama Bin Laden isn’t illiterate.

Check out: Mob Hit in Pakistan and git yerself edikated.

Pakistan’s education system, or lack thereof, has played a central role in the country’s radicalization. Pakistan’s education system is awful. It’s a patchwork of private madrassas, some of which teach real education but many if not most of which teach only the Koran.

That was one of the biggest knocks on Bhutto during her reign as PM. She looted the education system into bankruptcy opening the door for madrassas to educate the masses.

MORE MIDDAY DRUG ABUSE @ Hot Air wherein Bryan actually thinks he knows what to do about Pakistan: Hot Air Pakistan: What to do? Short form: We (in stealth mode) fund “education” and wait 20-30 years. Bryan, step away from the crack pipe and read thi…

Second, i’m with Romeo13. Democracy has to come from the ground up, or it lacks the foundations to go the distance. I believe it’s essential for a nation to actually win their freedom, so that they prize it enough to defend it.