Here’s your scripture on life beginning in the womb. It’s from Psalms 139:

13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

How can a clump of lifeless, soulless cells be known by God and have all its days ordained for it?

I’m sure you’ll find some numbers to spin. But look at the numbers of people who think that life begins at conception and the fetus has a true right to life just like any other person. Those numbers are in the teens or low twenties.

tommylotto on December 13, 2007 at 3:40 PM

Did you even read anything at the link you provided me?

This comes straight from your own link.

Do you believe that human life begins at conception, or once the baby may be able to survive outside the mother’s womb with medical assistance, or when the baby is actually born?

At conception 55
Survive outside womb 23
At birth 13

78% of those who were asked believe life begins sometime inside the womb. 55% (also known as more than half of those who were polled) of those were asked said that life begins at conception.

Science has developed to the point that a full living breathing thinking feeling human being can be created from a few skin cells scraped off my arm. Do I commit murder every time I scratch my butt?

You’re woefully ignorant of science. NO ONE has been able to clone a human being, and no one has used skin cells (which are effectively dead) when cloning animals. At any rate, a skin cell is not a zygote i.e. by itself it will never develop into anything but a skin cell, so saying we liken it to murder is just plain silly.

IMO, speculating about when or if a soul enters a human fetus is a waste of time since that is unknowable by science, but it is useful to determine at what point a human fetus is a living human being. I think this is something that should be informed by science (e.g. when the heart beat and brain waves begin), not by lawyers who don’t know jack about biology in general. I’m not in favor personally of abortions at any stage, but I think that late term abortions should definitely be limited to those cases where the life of the mother is in danger. Anything less than that is infanticide.

I’m sure you’ll find some numbers to spin. But look at the numbers of people who think that life begins at conception and the fetus has a true right to life just like any other person. Those numbers are in the teens or low twenties.

Do I commit murder every time I scratch my butt?

No one’s arguing that you commit murder when you jack off either, so this is a ridiculous statement.

unless you accept decisions like Roe v. Wade as the law.

And what if people had accepted that abortion was illegal before Roe? The decision is barely old enough for social security, and you’re acting like it’s too precious to be argued against.

but those who believe life begins at conception and it’s murder to end its life can only be described as a radical fringe.

tommylotto on December 13, 2007 at 2:40 PM

You’re really coming off as extremely ill-informed, so much so I’m having a hard time accepting that you’re being sincere. Surely you jest.

You all have emotional beliefs that are frankly way out of step with the rest of the country and the planet. Check the polls. Those holding your belief that abortion is murder hovers at or below 20%. Sure people want limits, etc., but those who believe life begins at conception and it’s murder to end its life can only be described as a radical fringe.

I didn’t know the topic of a soul would become such a contentious subject. Someone asked if a soul existed and I asked to define a soul. Nobody has so far; except for when Slublog paraphrased Plato.

Nonfactor on December 13, 2007 at 12:13 PM

My tone is not meant to be taken with any acrimony. I simply do not understand why the question is relevant.

I’ve seen people explain the soul in terms of philosophers, biblical theologians and even Jiminy Cricket.

Many believe that there is something unique about us that has nothing to do with basic mechanics. Otherwise, we’re just extremely sophisticated robots.

But even if we are nothing more than extremely complicated robots, our governments will still make laws concerning the legality of mistreating us if only for base instincts like self preservation. The existence or nonexistence of a soul shouldn’t change the discussion.

Why is this even relevant? Let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that souls do not exist, that nothing exists in us aside from genetics and brain waves. Then what?

Esthier on December 13, 2007 at 11:36 AM

I didn’t know the topic of a soul would become such a contentious subject. Someone asked if a soul existed and I asked to define a soul. Nobody has so far; except for when Slublog paraphrased Plato.

Heartbeat, brain waves, BFD. So did that ant carcass that I just flicked off my shoe heel.

tommylotto on December 12, 2007 at 9:17 PM

So? You’ve only proven that mankind values the life of other humans more than it values to life of insects and animals.

Go to a steakhouse if you want further proof.

Even though most don’t agree that animals have souls, we still have laws against causing undue harm to them. Our laws are not based on who/what does and does not have a soul.

And if scientifically proving a thing has a soul qualifies that thing to not be have its life taken, then maybe we were wrong to execute Tookie. Maybe Mumia should be released. Death row is suddenly irrelevant.

Asking when the fetus gets a soul is the stupidest argument for abortion that I’ve ever had the displeasure to read or hear in my entire life.

The most common argument is that something is not life if it cannot think, kinda a take off of the “I think therefore I am” quote. That one at least has the opportunity to prove that other people are in fact alive.

What is a soul? I’d like if someone could define it for me without flowery quotes from the Bible.

Nonfactor on December 12, 2007 at 11:01 PM

Why is this even relevant? Let’s just say, for argument’s sake, that souls do not exist, that nothing exists in us aside from genetics and brain waves. Then what?

I didn’t know that technology was able to detect a soul. That’s news to me.

You are speculating about that and calling someone a murdered and damning them to hell based on your baseless assumption. Very Christian of you!!!

Mr. Tommylotto:

How very idiotic of you. I said NOTHING about a soul. I am talking about physical development – heart pumping after 10 days, nerves developed, etc., shortly thereafter.

You’re the one making silly assumptions.

In other words you aren’t going to.

Nonfactor on December 13, 2007 at 3:19 AM

Clearly, neither can you.
Is the fallacious logic your request is based upon not readily apparent to you? Let me help you: The very concept of soul is a religious construct, therefore to discuss it out of that context and without using the original source material makes the conversation irrelevant.

And nothing is going to vindicate the ‘doctor’ in the above clip: He is still a willingly admitted liar.

What is a soul? I’d like if someone could define it for me without flowery quotes from the Bible.

If the Bible doesn’t work for you, try Plato. He had some interesting thoughts on the soul as what defines a person – the body’s controlling force.

you know, it’s a good thing that people can find education about abortion somewhere. You certainly won’t get it from the MSM.

I became prolife only after I was educated in biology and also the abortion procedures themselves.

My wife was pregnant twice. The first time I was hoping for a redwood tree…we needed a new deck. All we got was a baby. The second time around I was hoping for puppy….nothing like a good guard dog….but again all we got was a baby. Go figure.

Limerick on December 13, 2007 at 12:11 AM

I think the depth of that comment was lost. Rather parablistic of you.

- The Cat

In other words you aren’t going to.

Nonfactor on December 13, 2007 at 3:19 AM

Abortion kills a human being. Period. One needn’t believe in souls to notice the obvious.

Asking us to define a thing you yourself cannot define means that you cannot dispute the definition that you request, and the terms you list are just as arbitrary as those you protest, therefore begging the question that your set up attempts to refute.

TinMan13 on December 13, 2007 at 1:56 AM

FAITH.

TinMan13 on December 13, 2007 at 1:56 AM

In other words you aren’t going to.

What is a soul? I’d like if someone could define it for me without flowery quotes from the Bible.

Nonfactor on December 12, 2007 at 11:01 PM

Asking us to define a thing you yourself cannot define means that you cannot dispute the definition that you request, and the terms you list are just as arbitrary as those you protest, therefore begging the question that your set up attempts to refute.

Point to the place in the scriptures where it tells us where and when life and soul begins…

After the fetus develops blood – about 3 weeks – there is no question about “life” according to the Bible.
.

Leviticus 17:14
” For as for the life of all flesh, its blood is identified with its life. …

.
Shedding innocent blood has major consequences.
.
In 2 Kings:4 “shedding innocent blood” is given as a major reason for God destroying Jerusalem.
.
And, Yes, I believe America is in danger because of increasing immorality and abortion – regardless of who gets elected.

.

ITookTheRedPill on December 12, 2007 at 10:49 PM

— How do you make a link?

Go to a doctor needing a diseased organ removed, and they will tell you ALL of the potential ramifications of the procedure, the side effects, the drawbacks, the risks of the surgery, etc.

Go to a “family planning clinic” and tell them you want a perfectly healthy “thing” removed, and the doctor will do it.
Weird, how we got to this point legally, and morally.
Weird and sad.

Big deal. So he scrapes a clump of lifeless, soulless cells out of a woman’s womb before God breaths life and a soul into it.
tommylotto on December 12, 2007 at 7:59 PM

If a human being, in a womb, is a lifeless, soulless clump of cells, then so are you. I think we can all agree that you are pretty soulless at this point.

lorien1973 on December 13, 2007 at 12:28 AM

But you planted the seed.

Limerick on December 13, 2007 at 12:11 AM

If my wife ever passed a redwood tree; I don’t think I’d ever have sex with her again. I’d feel totally inadequate.

Limerick on December 13, 2007 at 12:11 AM

Dude – you need to pressure treat that stuff the first time around. It’s painful, but hey.