I don’t want to be antagonistic, but I need to point out as another person who has been there (along with gator70), that you are just consistently wrong on these issues. In some senses you are wrong subjectively, and as such the points are debatable. In another sense, your assumptions are wrong, so your analysis is objectively flawed. (and no, I’m not using the words in Hewittian context).

First is flawed analysis based on misleading/incorrect assumptions:

bad assumption #1:

Magnificently?
-insert visual of spinning head here-
Iraqi security forces includes the Iraqi police as well as the Iraqi Army.
-insert visual of spinning head with smoke coming out here-

The linked article refers to Anbar. the police in Anbar are not the same police everyone reads about that suck compared to the Iraqi Army and are riddled with militias. The police in Anbar perform as good or better than the Iraqi Army in many cases at this point. It’s a different animal from the national police or the police in baghdad.

bad assumption #2:

“They just need time to gain the experience required. You cannot buy experience; it has to be earned, and it takes time to do that.”
But almost 5 years already?

The Iraqi security forces running Anbar, specifically the local police, have not been in constant training over 5 years, they have been stood up, massacred, stood up, massacred, and stood up again, with unbelievable turnover the whole way. Just within the past year to year-and-a-half or so have local police forces been freshly constituted and actually held momentum, thus gaining the mentioned experience.

And if you want to lay the blame for why al Qaeda had the power to destroy local security forces with impunity, some of that falls on American strategy for the last 5 years, not the guys who have their family attacked for working as a cop and quit.

Subjective point:

Oh, they understand nationalism alright, they just see themselves primarily as Shiites, Sunnis or Kurds.

They saw themselves that way before you got there and they will see themselves that way after you leave.

Some do. Most, a surprising number, do not. But don’t take my word for it, hop a flight to Baghdad and start talking to people or read Michael Yon, rather than accepting the spoonfulls of fundamental Islamic sectarianism fed to you by the media. Tabling the Kurds, religious sectarianism among average Iraqis is vastly overplayed, and to the extent it exists it is vastly more cultural than a dispute over the lineage of Mohommed. Don’t get me wrong, there are super-religious Shia who really dislike Sunni in Southern Iraq, but there are also intermixed security forces in baghdad and mixed marriaged all over Iraq.

So you think that “terrorists aided and abetted by Iran, Syria Iran and others” are more powerful than WWII Germany and Japan?

Wow.

MB4 on December 11, 2007 at 11:57 PM

Germany and Japan attacked us with actual uniformed armies and navies. Both of them had a mindset that their men were expendable. Terrorists are a cowardly lot who hide behind the skirts of women and use children as human shields, the only one’s who don’t value their skins more than the cause are suicide bombers. If Iran or any other ME cesspool were to declare an official war on us, they know they would be reduced to rubble in 14 days or less.

Iraq, on the other hand, has been under constant attack from terrorists aided and abetted by Iran, Syria and others. To compare today’s Iraq with WW2 U.S. hardly makes any sense at all.

Bigfoot on December 11, 2007 at 11:31 PM

So you think that “terrorists aided and abetted by Iran, Syria Iran and others” are more powerful than WWII Germany and Japan?

Wow.

At the start of WWII the U.S had virtually no Army (including Army Air Force) or Marine Corps, and not much of a Navy after Pearl Harbor, yet less than 4 years later mighty Nazi Germany and mighty Imperialist Japan were both crushed.

During this time, we were not re-building our country from scratch after a dictator was removed, with terrorists suicide bombing recruits as they waited in line to join the military. Instead, most of us had the safety of being located an ocean away from our enemies. That included our factories, which could turn out planes, ships, tanks, bombs and everything else, with little chance of being bombed by our Axis enemies, or by domestic saboteurs. Iraq, on the other hand, has been under constant attack from terrorists aided and abetted by Iran, Syria and others. To compare today’s Iraq with WW2 U.S. hardly makes any sense at all.

The Arab/tribal mindet is very hard to overcome, and they do not completely understand nationalism.

gator70 on December 11, 2007 at 11:05 PM

Oh, they understand nationalism alright, they just see themselves primarily as Shiites, Sunnis or Kurds.

They saw themselves that way before you got there and they will see themselves that way after you leave.

But I will say this, I’ve sweated and bled with these guys and unless you have done that, than don’t presume anything. They frusterate me at time, make me want to run screaming sometimes, have angered me many times, but I will tell you this, I would fight side by side with these guys before I would fight side by side with any puke liberal American.

Here comes the 08 ‘mission accomplished’ sign for the MSM to beat everyone over the head with.

Limerick on December 11, 2007 at 10:08 PM

It’s like deja vu all over again.
- Yogi Berra

“The Iraqi security forces are acquitting themselves magnificently,” Gaskin said.

Magnificently?
-insert visual of spinning head here-
Iraqi security forces includes the Iraqi police as well as the Iraqi Army.
-insert visual of spinning head with smoke coming out here-

“They just need time to gain the experience required. You cannot buy experience; it has to be earned, and it takes time to do that.”

But almost 5 years already?

And still 19 months to go?

And wasn’t it about 18 months to go about, well, about 18 months ago?

At the start of WWII the U.S had virtually no Army (including Army Air Force) or Marine Corps, and not much of a Navy after Pearl Harbor, yet less than 4 years later mighty Nazi Germany and mighty Imperialist Japan were both crushed.

This is an astounding statement.

It is. History proves there is no such thing a permanence.

I’m not downplaying the situation on the ground, this is precisely what we’ve been fighting for from the beginning despite the efforts of America’s enemies- insurgents in Iraq and Democrats in DC. IMO, we are beginning to see the fruits of that effort as the both the insurgents and Democrats begin to realize they’ve lost.

The very worst thing that could happen at this juncture is for America to elect a spineless coward like Obama, Clinton, or Edwards. If the sentiment is that it is the “rats” turn to lead, for God’s sake let’s look at the ones with legitimate credentials for a change!

Positive Trends in Anbar Permanent, Coalition Commander Says

Noting is permanent.

Not the Roman empire, not the Thousand Year Reich, not the U.S.S.R, not a womans looks, zip, nada, zilch.

2)If this is true, we’d be wrong about McChimpy. And we are NEVER WRONG. NOR do we throw tantrums.

3)Because then Republicans would have defeated terrorism. Waahhhh!

4)This means less dead US soldiers–and we like dead US soldiers.

5)In essence, this doesn’t help Dems. So bury it. And it’s pro-America. We hate that, too.

Whew

It’s hard to imagine thinking that way, right? I need a bath.