Huckabee: ”Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?”
posted at 10:50 pm on December 11, 2007 by Allahpundit
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I said I hoped we were done with Huck for the night. I didn’t say we were.
I’ll give him a pass here. Granted, he shouldn’t be wondering aloud about the doctrinal niceties of other faiths, particularly this one under the present circumstances. But a lot of people operate under a lot of misconceptions about Mormonism, it seems. No need to impute bad faith where simple ignorance will do.
Of course, that’s what I said at first about the “Christian Leader” ad. An LDS spokesman smells a rat:
The authoritative Encyclopedia of Mormonism, published in 1992, does not refer to Jesus and Satan as brothers. It speaks of Jesus as the son of God and of Satan as a fallen angel, which is a Biblical account.
A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints said Huckabee’s question is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine.
”We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all,” said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. ”That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for.”
Maybe Romney should take to casually wondering what specie of property women in covenant marriages are regarded as being. I have a feeling he won’t, though. Exit question: Why does Mitt worship Satan?
Update: A reader sends this link to the LDS website as evidence that Huck’s getting a bad rap from the AP:
We needed a Savior to pay for our sins and teach us how to return to our Heavenly Father. Our Father said, “Whom shall I send?” (Abraham 3:27). Two of our brothers offered to help. Our oldest brother, Jesus Christ, who was then called Jehovah, said, “Here am I, send me” (Abraham 3:27)…
Satan, who was called Lucifer, also came, saying, “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor” (Moses 4:1).
Sounds from this like we’re all brothers, Christ and Satan included, which jibes with what the LDS spokesman quoted in the article said. Huck isn’t technically wrong, in other words, although he does seem to be suggesting a special sibling relation between Christ and Satan — as though Mormons somehow equate the two — that I’m not seeing in this passage. As noted above, I’m willing to chalk it up to simple misunderstanding. Our LDS readers can take it from there in the comments.
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All this religious talk by the candidates is dizzying. We can’t be taken seriously as a party if this doesn’t get tempered to a great extent.
Entelechy on December 11, 2007 at 10:56 PM
No joke. Rudy should be glad he’s out of this mix; he’s lookin’ better the longer this lasts.
lorien1973 on December 11, 2007 at 10:57 PM
Mike Huckabee once said he supported a new position in the game of hockey based on the designator hitter concept found in basketball.
GogglesPisano on December 11, 2007 at 10:57 PM
FTFY
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 10:57 PM
I can TOTALLY see your point about blogging-the-horserace-is-a-drag.
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 10:58 PM
Fred too.
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 10:58 PM
I already posted this in the headlines, and don’t see any reason to change my opinion:
And I know there’ll be the usual whining about it, but if Huck keeps saying and doing stupid and/or malicious crap this often, then there’s no reason not to cover it. Welcome to primte time, Huckster–too bad you aren’t ready for it.
ReubenJCogburn on December 11, 2007 at 11:01 PM
All this crap is making start to think like Hitch, with regards to religion. Why can’t everyone just be hopeful agnostics?
liberrocky on December 11, 2007 at 11:02 PM
*sigh* Allah, this one had dropped off the headlines. You had to bring it back, didn’t you?
I’ll recap my comment from there: If Huck set out to ask this question, then he’s deliberately smearing the LDS church, and really, this is out of line. He can kiss off any delegates from Utah and probably most of the intermountain west.
Tell me, why should anyone who is LDS vote for Huck? Can anyone think of any reason? Not even Hillary or Obama would say something like this.
Now, if some interviewer asked him about this, that’s one thing. If he brought this up, is this the first time a republican candidate has gone out of their way to smear a voting block in the Republican party (not just a candidate), a mainstream one, that is? I don’t count the Log Cabin people as mainstream.
For a man whose only claim to electability is his faith, he doesn’t know even the basics about his chief competitors faith, the one that has been in the news? I find that hard to believe. Is he really that clueless? I mean, surely someone would have predicted that Huck, the Evangelical Pastor in the race, would be asked about Romney’s religion? Doesn’t he know he sounds even more unprepared? Unless he means to do another subtle dig at the LDS church.
I am beginning to wonder about what will happen to members of my church if Huck is elected. He’s really playing the anti-mormon card. Will he try to do something about it if he’s elected?
Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Heh, Bad Candy, had to look that up. Glad you fixed it for me. Btw, love your pen name. You live up to it too :)
Entelechy on December 11, 2007 at 11:04 PM
(Also from the headlines)
Hmm, I seem to remember a little work by Milton on this theme…
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:04 PM
Who? Fred ain’t winning the nomination. At best, he’s hoping for VP. He isn’t showing anything more than that, that’s for sure.
lorien1973 on December 11, 2007 at 11:04 PM
I’m getting tired of all the religion talk on the campaign trail and I’m an evangelical and I also attended Pat Robertson’s grad school. It’s getting really old.
terryannonline on December 11, 2007 at 11:05 PM
”We believe, as other Christians believe and as Paul wrote, that God is the father of all,” said the spokeswoman, Kim Farah. ”That means that all beings were created by God and are his spirit children. Christ, on the other hand, was the only begotten in the flesh and we worship him as the son of God and the savior of mankind. Satan is the exact opposite of who Christ is and what he stands for.”
Where they run into difficulty here is that most Christians believe Lucifer is a fallen angel, not a god and certainly not equal at any time to Jesus. But I guess this is a theological distinction that only Christians would worry about.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:09 PM
You only posted this because of the sweet new screen cap.
I’m getting the popcorn ready for the huge Huck flame-out.
TexasDan on December 11, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Huckabee needs that 5 second delay asap,
wait,put the tazer on stun for his own good,
wait for the party’s on good.hehe
canopfor on December 11, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Satan: He ain’t heavy. He’s by brother. – Jesus.
lorien1973 on December 11, 2007 at 11:10 PM
I’m not a Huck or Mitt supporter but, why in the world is everyone so concerned about their religion? We are not electing a religious leader! We are electing a president. I don’t give a rat about his religion. I want to know what he will do about the border, Iraq, Iran, taxes, and so forth. Sheesh what the heck is wrong with people anymore.
boomer on December 11, 2007 at 11:11 PM
I grew up Southern Baptist and remember being told that as a kid.
CP on December 11, 2007 at 11:11 PM
His other pen name might give you a chill.
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:12 PM
Looks like Huck admits he doesn’t know that much about Mormonism:
So I am guessing someone is trying to find something to smear him with.
Why are people smearing Huck all of a sudden I wonder?
Enquiring minds want to know (not really, I can guess)
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:12 PM
You’re talking sense, but Huck doesn’t want to talk about that stuff because he’ll get shredded–he’s either bad on those issues or he doesn’t have a clue. So he keeps bringing everything back to religion, trying to ride a Bigot Wave through the primaries. I’m sick to death of it too.
ReubenJCogburn on December 11, 2007 at 11:15 PM
LDS believe Lucifer and Jesus are spirit children of God. That would make them brothers. There are a lot of other spirit children out there for God supposedly has a lot of wives, and some came down to earth. We are all brothers and sisters and actual children of God (or something like that). Lucifer is not an angel, but a spirit child of God. Now if you think of all spirit children as angels, then he is an angel. Not sure the distinction in the LDS Church.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:15 PM
LOL! Sometimes, you just come out of nowhere and surprise me. I like your humor.
jaime on December 11, 2007 at 11:15 PM
To the theological points of the statement: As the article linked to says, this is primarily an anti-mormon talking point. Look at it this way: God is our Father. We LDS think of that as a literal thing. Christ, since He was human, is our brother as well. After all, He is human.
And there’s been plenty of evil men and women. They chose to be evil, for the most part–God did not create them to be evil. Just as Satan was not created evil, but chose to be that way. Should it reflect badly on Christ that Cain or Judas were also human? If not, then this argument fails miserably.
Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 11:16 PM
The Huckster is really living down to his name. What a schmuck. I tend not to get excited about disparaging other religions, (except of course the Religion of Pieces, whose filthy pagan members will surely spend eternity screaming in a lake of fire) preferring more parochial insults.
So let me take this moment to spew filth toward the hicks and troglodytes of Iowa, wherein The Huckster finds willing listeners to his dizzying array of stupid statements. No one who ever went to Iowa first talks about midwestern values and such. Iowans are generally stupid and rude, and they have a meth problem. New Yorkers are friendlier, and dare I say it, smarter. And they have better drugs.
Jaibones on December 11, 2007 at 11:16 PM
“Ah, shucks. I just don’t know much about the Marmons…”
(Or ICE, or the NIE, or foreign policy…)
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:16 PM
My god is better than your god…nananana.
SouthernGent on December 11, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Poor Allah… figures that the resident atheist gets stuck with the job of having to post all this…
greggish on December 11, 2007 at 11:20 PM
Huck in rising in the polls and that is scaring some people, so they are looking for dirt. The easiest place to find dirt on a Southern Baptist minister is with his church’s beliefs.
I said a few months ago that this country won’t vote a Mormon into office as President because a lot of evangelicals don’t trust Mormons and many liberals (especially gays) hate Mormons. Ain’t going to happen.
I will say the same thing about a Southern Baptist minister. There is no way Huck can make it all the way to the White House. And I like Huck, he seems a nice enough guy all in all, but the Liberals, gays and the elite establishment is not going to allow a Southern Baptist minister to be President of the United States. Ain’t going to happen.
I wish I were wrong, but I think I know this country too well and we just aren’t in a place in 2007 to elect either of these men President of the United States. And you are witnessing right now why.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:21 PM
PS: I like Mitt too, but he is a little too much East Coast for me.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:22 PM
Kinda reminds me of a certain Governor from Texas that was elected to the presidency (twice)
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:23 PM
“If so, so be it. But I think you underestimate the American people.” (As someone recently said.)
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Yup.
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:24 PM
RB, do you mean doubleplusundead?
If so, the two mean the same thing, that he’s a bad candy :)
Entelechy on December 11, 2007 at 11:24 PM
Oh this just hit me,again the Simpsons,when Lisa
gets scaled down by the debigulator,and all hail Lisa.
The little world leader asks,perplexed,”The Devil is your
brother! That episode I LMAO.
canopfor on December 11, 2007 at 11:25 PM
Thank you for the post. We all have free will. We Catholics believe the same about Satin and the follen angels that he chose to turn from God. Although we don’t think of Satan as human. He is an angel, which to us is a spiritual being different than humans (even different than humans souls that are in Heaven).
Question for you, if you will, what does the LDS believe is the difference between an angel and one of God’s children, like Jesus, or you or I?
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:27 PM
sorry for the spelling in the last post
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:28 PM
Mitt doesn’t worship Satan, but Kim Farah is nuancing her answer, according to the information that Sandra Tanner has on her website. Tanner is no longer a Mormon, but she is a great-great-grandchild of Brigham Young and cites various Mormon presidents and apostles who have refered to Lucifer as the rebellious brother of Jesus.
That being said, Huckabee is not playing straight with this. He evaded questions about Mormonism when he hasn’t wanted to answer them and now he’s saying this.
INC on December 11, 2007 at 11:28 PM
Does that include someone mentioning that with enough off the wall fundamentalist evangelical baggage to guarantee a closet communist in the Whitehouse, for the good of the country, withdraw?
Speakup on December 11, 2007 at 11:30 PM
Me Asks if Jesus Believes The High Reverend Huckster, Devil Are Brothers.
The way that The High Reverend Huckster is trying to turn Christians against each other, me thinks that may well be what Jesus thinks.
MB4 on December 11, 2007 at 11:30 PM
And, they also show a sophisticated vision in their selections for Senate and Governor which cannot be criticized.
a capella on December 11, 2007 at 11:30 PM
I know this may be a bit OT, but with all this back and forth criticism of the religious beliefs of Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee, how come more has not been made of Barack Obama’s racist Church?
Imagine if the nominees are Mike Huckabee and Barack Obama and religion is the focus. We’ll have Southern Baptist beliefs vs racist Christian beliefs. Oy.
Michael in MI on December 11, 2007 at 11:31 PM
The LDS believe we are all brothers and sisters. Including Lucifer and Jesus. When they say we are all children of God, they mean it. When they call each other brother and sister, they mean it.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:32 PM
The Democrats won’t bring it up because it might alienate some blacks and the Republicans aren’t running against him right now. I would assume it will be brought up in the General if need be.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Heh, I have way too many handles. BC actually came from an old Halo 2 profile, I used the capsule as my symbol, and no, I didn’t play online, there’s something depressing getting mercilessly pwn3d by obnoxious 13 year olds. Doubleplusundead came from reading 1984 and World War Z at the same time.
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 11:34 PM
Brrrr!
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:36 PM
Following it through, the belief is that Jesus, Lucifer, Huck, Mitt and, yes, even YOU and I are brothers. Kinda scary that.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:36 PM
Hmmm, creatio ex nihilo….
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:38 PM
That’s actually quite appealing.
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:38 PM
Huh?
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 11:38 PM
The guy never lets a chance to inject religion in his little digs at his opponents. Remember when he gave his “Holiday Inn” foreign policy answer and Fred called him a “court jester?”
Huck responded to that saying: “The most activity we’ve seen out of the Fred Thompson campaign are the relentless press releases coming from his campaign about me. There were six before 10 o’clock Sunday morning,” Huckabee said at the news conference, where he was surrounded by pastors.
“Most of us were in church. He was cranking out press releases that morning,” Huckabee said as the pastors chuckled.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071207/ap_on_el_pr/huckabee_spotlight
amish on December 11, 2007 at 11:39 PM
Until you put it that way.
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:40 PM
In the begining there was the Word
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:40 PM
brrrr…
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:41 PM
Yeah, I’m not liking his using the church as a sledgehammer. The fact that its somewhat effective bothers me even more.
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 11:42 PM
Where the heck is Fred anyway?
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:42 PM
Totally teasing Entelechy. I love you like a brother, bro, and am tempted to come over and be your fifth reader. Leave crapcomments and all. :)
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:42 PM
Where from?
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:43 PM
I just peed my pants. Almost anyway.
MB4 on December 11, 2007 at 11:44 PM
Hey Amish, does your mom know you’re using electricity…?
Tzetzes on December 11, 2007 at 11:44 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Always was, first cause.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Hey Huckabee. If you’re reading this thread, are you getting the message that we’ve moved on???
RushBaby on December 11, 2007 at 11:50 PM
bnelson: You asked what is the difference between angels and one of God’s children, or you or I.
Here is the answer: We are all of the same species. We pray to our Heavenly Father; that is a literal thing–we really ARE God’s children. He is the Father of our Spirits. Christ was the Firstborn of those (thus explaining why He is called the “firstborn” instead of “only child”). Christ is also the only person born on Earth where God was his physical father as well as the father of His spirit. That meant Christ was divine, from His Father (as well as immortal, etc–he physically had the power to control death, from His divine father). He was mortal from Mary, and thus had the power to die. That makes Christ the only one who could lay down his life and take it again.
We were all around, too, before we are born, as spirits. We come to this earth in part to gain a physical body, but also to prove that we will follow God on faith, not knowledge.
Lucifer was one of these spirits, and he rebelled against the plan of our Heavenly Father; in essence Lucifer said he could do a better job than God could–thus, we should worship him. And he drew away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. Now, of course, due to his rebellion, he is the devil–his choice.
Today, the war in heaven is not over–it rages here on Earth, too. Christ and the devil are contending for the souls of mankind, and we choose which side (and which person) we will follow.
So who are the angels? The angels are God’s messengers. Primarily, they are the souls of righteous people who have either lived here and passed their test (such as Moses and Elias on the Mount of Transfiguration), or perhaps they have not yet come to this Earth for their turn. But all the ones ever sent here to Earth are, in fact, related to us as well–they really are our brother or sister.
Note, then, that we are all part of God’s family; He really IS our Father in Heaven. And we are striving to make it back to live with Him–and the only way that will happen is via Christ’s sacrifice for us, and His resurrection.
I hope that helps some. There’s a lot of concepts there that are, I believe, relatively undiscussed in most traditional Christian faiths.
Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Where the heck is Fred anyway?
I think he’s over at Aces working on a Power Point presentation of why Huckabee will always be a fatass at heart.
Hey Amish, does your mom know you’re using electricity…?
Electricity? Thats for those pansy Mennonites. All i need is a milk crate, a monitor, and some serious mojo.
amish on December 11, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Thank you again.
OK, so if I understand correctly, when Lucifer lived with God he was an angel as well? But since he as been banished from the upper heaven, he is no longer an angel, just a spirit? Or am I reading too much into identifying Lucifer as an angel, is it just a literary device?
Also, you believe that husbands and wives have spirit children in heaven. Are these spirit children dispatched to Earth, and if so, they wouldn’t be children of God, or do these children remain as spirit children until the man and wife become just like God and get their own planet to populate with their children. Are these children angels?
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 11:58 PM
Very Aristotelian. Genesis starts by saying “in the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth.” John takes it back earlier, to an earlier beginning, with the Word. Is that the earliest beginning? (I don’t ask this rhetorically, but in good earnest.)
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Bro!
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Nine Huck bashing posts. A new record!! Nothing good to say about your guy? Probably because his highest poll numbers were before he declared.
R D on December 12, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Dear Vanceone, as with BNelson, this is not a rhetorical, but an earnest question: what does the word father mean?
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:02 AM
I wouldn’t support a candidate that engaged in religion-baiting any more than I’d support one that engaged in race-baiting. Or Trutherism.
His computer is powered by the static buildup in his beard.
ReubenJCogburn on December 12, 2007 at 12:04 AM
“The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the worlds was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, son of the morning. Haughty, ambitious, and covetous of power and glory, this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the savior of mankind.”
McConkie, Mormon Doctrine p. 193
AZ_Redneck on December 12, 2007 at 12:06 AM
That could mean that I’m your sister…
Entelechy on December 12, 2007 at 12:07 AM
In the end there was the space.
profitsbeard on December 12, 2007 at 12:08 AM
I think LDS believe God is a human like you and I. He was born from two other gods. I think, the LDS believe in a plurality of gods and that we can become exactly like God.
I am Catholic, I believe that God always existed. He is infinite in every way (time, space, knowledge, power, etc.). He, in his Trinity, exists outside of the confines of time and space. There is no way we can set any limitations on Him in either time or space. That is not that unusual of a concept if you know about quantum physics. By the way, the infinity of God negates the concept of plural gods. For if you have more than one god, they cannot all be infinite.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:10 AM
I would be proud to be your sister.
RushBaby on December 12, 2007 at 12:10 AM
Curt at Flopping Aces answers this for you.
Michael in MI on December 12, 2007 at 12:10 AM
It just occurred to me that Mitt looks like Pacino in The Devil’s Advocate.
AlexB on December 12, 2007 at 12:11 AM
Gosh, now that I saw MB’s comment on minitopic, a cautionary note is in order – don’t worry, I don’t want to be your sister.
Entelechy on December 12, 2007 at 12:11 AM
Thanks for looking that up.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:12 AM
sob
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:13 AM
I think MB’s hit the beer and RB’s hit the wine already. It’s been a confusing day. Love you both,
Entelechy on December 12, 2007 at 12:13 AM
sob=to cry
just realized that might be taken the wrong way
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:13 AM
He needs to get some attention. Maybe a blimp or something.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:15 AM
Huckabee really is BUSH
Right down to shoving his foot in his mouth
God someone please take him down in Iowa
Defector01 on December 12, 2007 at 12:17 AM
They share a lot of political positions.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:18 AM
Quantum physics? I don’t know. Very few people do. I have a friend who gets it, but I just take his conclusions without understanding the reasoning behind it. (Physicists are the priests of our era.)
But as for infinity, if you have a line, it’s infinite. It goes on forever in either direction. You take a circle and you have an infinite number of lines there, an infinite number of infinities. Take a sphere and you have an infinite number of circles, or an infinite number of an infinite number of infinities.
So you can certainly have more than one infinity. Even my very finite mind can understand that. So I wouldn’t put it past God.
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Safe traveling. With love from your friend and fellow human being.
RushBaby on December 12, 2007 at 12:21 AM
By the way, does anyone have a good definition of what we mean when we say the word God (or god), in the singular and/or plural?
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:22 AM
That is one thing that has always “perplexed” me about religious v. atheist arguments. They are always God “infinite in every way” versus no God when there is an infinite number of degrees/possibliites between the two.
If God were infinite how could there be any space left over for us and all our stuff?
MB4 on December 12, 2007 at 12:24 AM
Not yet!
Soon though.
MB4 on December 12, 2007 at 12:26 AM
Again, I will restate that your “talking points” shows a severe lack of basic understanding of Theology.
Scripture does not imply that Christ was born as you or I. Paul states:
Yes, but LDS take it as being through “birth” and that isn’t the case:
Ephesians 1:5 He did this by predestining us to adoption as his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the pleasure of his will.
In other words we are not brothers in Christ by blood or what ever theological sexual procreation that LDS believe. It is by adoption.
You also have a lack of knowledge of Hebrew. First-born was not reffering to the person who was “born first”, but rather the one who had prominence. In ancient times the first-born son was elevated above all other children. He was given double the inheritance.
To believe anything other than inheritance, you would need to fight against a mountain of evidence including Hebrews 12 which talks about first born. You also have to address the issue over Ishmael and Isaac. While Ishmael was the first to be born, he was not considered “First-born”. In other words, Ishmael did not deserve the status of prominence nor inheritance.
Also, to even claim that Christ was the “First to be born” (by fact of your poor translation of “First-Born”), it to deny the Nicene Creed.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
Notice the term eternally. In other words, Christ had no beginning, nor will he have an end. Man, Satan and Angels all have a beginning, even if we have no end.
It was such a strong belief against so many non-canonical text, that they put in a second line just to make sure that contemporary cults (and future ones like LDS) couldn’t claim that Christ was made or not eternal.
Again, Scripture doesn’t point this out. In Hebrews 2 it points out that there were different creations between angels and man. Hebrews 2 also says we were created lower than the angels, but ultimately we will reign over them. No where does it point that we are brothers and sisters.
One thing a person learns studying to become a theologian is that there basically no new thoughts in theology. Basically, every heresy that is all the rage today, existed 2000 years ago. It literally is true. Many of the Mystery Religions in the region during the 2nd and 3rd Centuries AD believed that Christ was nothing more than the brother of Satan or the brother of Judas. Others (certain Gnostic sects) believed that Christ was created just as we were and this caused numerous unorthodox beliefs. They included beliefs that Christ sinned, man couldn’t sin, we were all related and therefore sexual mores were non-existent, being related man couldn’t have sex without being incestuous and numerous other heterodoxy. Basically, the point is this “enlightened” ideas that you think we should discuss more, has been discussed to death and orthodox Christianity still has rejected the beliefs.
Tim Burton on December 12, 2007 at 12:26 AM
My disclaimer:
I don’t like Huck and am not voting for him. I will be voting Hunter in the Primary and anyone on the GOP side in the General.
Tim Burton on December 12, 2007 at 12:28 AM
A line is not an infinite object. While infinite in the ends, the rest of a line’s dimensions are finite (if defined). A like think can be said of a circle, and a sphere. All these objects are defined by placing limitations on them. God has no limitations. So think of what a line would be like if not only the ends were infinite, but the height, width, breath, tangent and all other parts of it were infinite. Basically you would have an object that would fill all of space and you could not define it as an object at all. Think of such an object existing outside of time and physical laws. Now realize that God is a thinking God, and a personal God and cares about what goes on in His universe, and can impact His universe and you start to approach what God must be like.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:29 AM
A line is by definition infinite: infinitely long and infinitely thin. A circle is finite in its circumference but infinite in its degrees.
There can be both. (Unless we’re part of God, as the Hindoos believe.)
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:34 AM
Sure, and the LDS believe in something between the two. As do the Native Americans and a bunch of other peoples.
God exists outside of space and time. He is spirit. Think of it as a separate dimension if you like.
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:35 AM
You have limited it to 2 dimentions. You have placed a limitation on your infinate thing. So it is not infinite.
Same here: You have limited it to 2 dimentions. You have placed a limitation on your infinate thing. So it is not infinite.
Tzetzes on December 12, 2007 at 12:34 AM
bnelson44 on December 12, 2007 at 12:37 AM
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