1998 statement signed by Huck affirmed: “A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband”
posted at 6:30 pm on December 11, 2007 by Allahpundit
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Via Dan Riehl, just the sort of thing you want to have to defend during a campaign, especially when you’re running against a woman with women voters already gravitating to her.
More than 50 evangelical leaders have signed a paper affirming a statement on the family adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in June…
The husband should “love his wife as Christ loved the church,” it says. “He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect and to lead his family.”
The SBC statement also addresses the wife, who is “to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.”…
Among those signing the paper, which reads, “I affirm the statement on the family issued by the 1998 Southern Baptist Convention,” were:
Prison Fellowship founder Chuck Colson.
Promise Keepers founder Bill McCartney.
National Religious Broadcasters President Brandt Gustavson.
Gov. Mike Huckabee of Arkansas.
The counterargument, I trust, is that this is a fairly orthodox statement of the Christian view of marriage. Is it? And is Huck going to be able to plead that after having put his name to a statement explicitly affirming this particular bit of doctrine? He’s not in the same relation here, in other words, as a Catholic politician would be to the Church’s gender discrimination, where one can plead disagreement with individual policies while still embracing the larger whole. Huck’s signing up here specifically for wives as subordinates. As much as I agree that Drudge exaggerated his statement about taking back America for Jesus, this sort of thing is going to come up if he’s the nominee and some voters are going to wonder about it if he can’t explain it to their satisfaction, just like some of them wonder about Mormons believing the Garden of Eden is in Missouri. He’s reaping plenty of benefits from his religious stature; these are going to be the costs. Which may explain why he’s reluctant to publish his old sermons.
So much for that. Go see what Kaus has to say about how serious Huck seems to be about the terms of his new hardline immigration policy. It’s almost as if he lifted it from Mark Krikorian for political convenience, not because he really believes in opposing amnesty in all its forms. And with that, I think/hope we’re done with Huck for the night.
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Ohhhh lord. And we thought Mitt was a bad idea.
MadisonConservative on December 11, 2007 at 6:31 PM
Well, on the bright side, he just got the Jihadi vote.
Iblis on December 11, 2007 at 6:32 PM
Put a fork in Huckabee, he’s done. Just wait until some of his other statements come pouring out.
davenp35 on December 11, 2007 at 6:33 PM
Well, it is in the Bible. Ephesians 3, I think.
I recall Mrs. See-dub and I spent some time talking about that before we got hitched.
see-dubya on December 11, 2007 at 6:33 PM
“servant leadership?”
Alex K on December 11, 2007 at 6:34 PM
Frau Morgenholz is getting me a sammich as we speak…NOT
HerrMorgenholz on December 11, 2007 at 6:34 PM
He should say “in 1998, we didn’t yet understand the full nature of marriage.”
Alex K on December 11, 2007 at 6:35 PM
Deanesque soundbite coming soon, although I think it will be more of an annoying whine.
bbz123 on December 11, 2007 at 6:35 PM
Just wait until the find out he taught Noah’s Ark to the kids. How’s he going to explain that to the voters?
pedestrian on December 11, 2007 at 6:36 PM
Ohhhh lord. And we thought Mitt was a bad idea.
MadisonConservative on December 11, 2007 at 6:31 PM
Ask Mitt about a woman’s role in the LDS Church.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 6:36 PM
And that’ll be his defense. In which case, when does he give his “Faith in America” speech?
Allahpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:36 PM
Laugh it away if you want. This is nothing like that.
Allahpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:38 PM
Yep, been hearing that in church for over 20 years. Its a fundamental part of how Christians view marriage
offroadaz on December 11, 2007 at 6:38 PM
Well, is anyone listening to those statements. I get the distinct sense that the blogosphere is talking to itself about Huckabee. I seriously doubt all these controversies are being heard in Iowa, South Carolina, and beyond. Even Fox News hasn’t really covered all the Huckabee flops and fiascoes. And Dick Morris is on regularly to shill for the man.
Nessuno on December 11, 2007 at 6:39 PM
Coolness. Let’s hope all Christian women, and also all non-Christians, agree.
Allahpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:39 PM
Gee, I don’t see Romney quoted for a single word in your article. By contrast, Huck has buried himself.
MadisonConservative on December 11, 2007 at 6:40 PM
I kept saying that it was a bad idea for Mitt do give that speech. I guess I’ll keep on saying that.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 6:41 PM
Was Huck quoted, or was the Southern Baptist Convention quoted?
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 6:42 PM
Can you say, femenazi revival meetings, guess who they’ll vote for.
Speakup on December 11, 2007 at 6:42 PM
If I even suggested this to my wife, I’d be sleeping in the yard. :)
amerpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:42 PM
LOL….if my wife sees this then Huck’s mailbox is gonna be full.
Limerick on December 11, 2007 at 6:44 PM
Members of both groups who have read the Bible will agree that it is in there.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:44 PM
Hey, you think a lot of Christian men even think like that? I don’t.
Bad Candy on December 11, 2007 at 6:45 PM
So he thinks women should be subservient to their men, presumably by bringing them beer and sandwitches on demand during the day and “submit” at night? I may have to re-think my opposition to the guy…
Hollowpoint on December 11, 2007 at 6:45 PM
Ya know, I would do that. For the right guy.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:46 PM
He signed it. He made clear his agreement with it. Romney has not.
MadisonConservative on December 11, 2007 at 6:46 PM
He’s right!
Women should be subservient to men and the men should let murderers and rapists run free in society while they grovel in moon-eyed wonder at the feet of Godless foreign tyrants.
thareb on December 11, 2007 at 6:47 PM
Huckabee as pastor: thumbs up; as president: still no.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:47 PM
Yep, been hearing that in church for over 20 years. Its a
fundamentalfundamentalist part of how Christians view marriageoffroadaz on December 11, 2007 at 6:38
I have never heard this in any church service I have attended. Different pews for different views?
Buy Danish on December 11, 2007 at 6:48 PM
So what’s your point?
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:48 PM
Live by religious demagoguery, die by religious demagoguery.
He’s worked very hard to paint himself as the Christian candidate. Now the peski :) little details of exactly what that means are burbling to the surface.
peski on December 11, 2007 at 6:48 PM
I do not doubt it. Won’t help him a bit.
Allahpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:49 PM
Dayyum, I’m beginning to really warm to this whole Bible thing!
thejackal on December 11, 2007 at 6:51 PM
So I guess the “Golden Rule” just applies to foreign nations, not your wife.
brak on December 11, 2007 at 6:51 PM
Of course it’s in there. So is a lot of incest and murder and theft and human sacrifice and polygamy.
Do you really want a candidate that brings the nuance of these matters to the forefront of the political discussion?
peski on December 11, 2007 at 6:53 PM
Also that he was acting in a capacity as pastor and not as governor, which I think is a legitimate defense even though I don’t like the guy for the nomination.
Hollowpoint on December 11, 2007 at 6:54 PM
Your hopes are officially dashed. This (as you expected) is hugely controversial, and even people like me who understand and agree with this doctrine seldom care to try to defend it to outsiders.
Laura on December 11, 2007 at 6:54 PM
From Biblegateway:
Here’s how I interpret this (for what it’s worth.)
Should I lord over my wife? No – we’re equals in the eyes of God.
But when it comes to the 6 foot tall shirtless 22 year old across the street who looks like he does nothing but work out, get tatoos, and smoke dope all day refuses to turn off the gangster rap blaring out of his jack up Ford F150…
…who’s going to go make him turn it down?
Not my wife I can assure you.
thareb on December 11, 2007 at 6:54 PM
To be fair, the passage in Ephesians does not compare to the passages in the Qu’ran condoning wife beating. But that doesn’t matter, I guess.
mram on December 11, 2007 at 6:54 PM
So as a pastor he believes women should be subservient to their husbands, but as commander in chief he believes that….?
peski on December 11, 2007 at 6:55 PM
Slouching toward sharia.
liberrocky on December 11, 2007 at 6:55 PM
If a Muslim were running for President, you bet your sweet bippy it would.
peski on December 11, 2007 at 6:56 PM
If he believes it, he believes it. If he believes it as a pastor, he must believe it as a presidential candidate and then-governor.
amerpundit on December 11, 2007 at 6:56 PM
It took me years to convince my wife to vote Republican. I wouldn’t even tell her about this. And she’s not a servant, she’s a surgeon.
JiangxiDad on December 11, 2007 at 6:56 PM
As well it shouldn’t. As with Romney, his religious beliefs don’t matter as long as those beliefs do not supercede his oath as president. If Mrs. Huckabee wants to submit to him, that’s her problem and it’s between them.
What I have a problem with (and likely you do also) is his cynical need to say this publicly, as if this belief makes him a better candidate for president. How he and his wife treat each other is none of our business–unless it breaks a law of the land.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:56 PM
Especially since he signed it as governor of Arkansas. Kinda blurs the state/church line a bit.
Slublog on December 11, 2007 at 6:57 PM
Isn’t this verse dealing with spiritual leadership?
J on December 11, 2007 at 6:58 PM
Exactly. It doesn’t get mentioned much outside conservative evangelical churches, and even then, it’s used more often to get men who are lazy in their spiritual lives to “cowboy up” and take leadership role, and even that is generally seen as “Lead By Example”, not by giving orders to your wife.
Frozen Tex on December 11, 2007 at 6:58 PM
So he signed a statement that included a verse from the bible. I don’t see the controversy, but I’m sure his detractors will make something of it.
Complete7 on December 11, 2007 at 6:58 PM
Are you asking me these questions because you want an answer or because you’re interested in scoring rhetorical points?
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 6:58 PM
maybe Huck will tell Hillary to “Submit” in the debates….might when over alot of men who are moderate Dems and can’t stand Hillary.
jp on December 11, 2007 at 6:59 PM
It’s in there alright, but people would do well to read the whole passage in question.
“…just as Christ game himself up for her.” That’s a reference to Christ’s crucifixion. The idea there is to promote selfless love within marriage to the point that both husband and wife are putting the other’s needs before their own, and the husband is willing to give up his life for his wife. So, no, this doesn’t parallel the male-dominated brutality that’s written in the Koran, and it’s not a passage that promotes kingly behavior on the part of the husband. The mutual selflessness promoted in Ephesians is downright revolutionary today.
But yeah, it’ll be taken entirely the wrong way and dog Huckabee for as long as he’s in the race unless he’s very very very good at explaining things. He’s good, but probably not that good.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:00 PM
That’s true; however, I think this issue is simply misunderstood.
It is in the Bible, but that shouldn’t be his only defense. No Christian I know, which isn’t to say I know all of them, believes those passages in the Bible mean that a woman is inferior to her husband.
If he defends his signature, he needs to do so on those grounds and explain it the way only a pastor can.
Esthier on December 11, 2007 at 7:01 PM
You think that was true 500, or even 100 years ago? Not. The theological dogma has been run over by the karma of social progress. And yes it does get mentioned outside church circles, but usually cloaked in language about “family values”, which is all fine and good.
peski on December 11, 2007 at 7:02 PM
My wife subscribes to this belief.
And in return I let her do whatever she wants.
I am a benevolent dictator.
tlynch001 on December 11, 2007 at 7:02 PM
I like this verse Deuteronomy 23:13
The Bible gives good advice about where to poo when youre camping
As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement
offroadaz on December 11, 2007 at 7:02 PM
It won’t take that much explaining, if people take the time to actually read it.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=2510
“You are right because you recognized that the family was God’s idea, not man’s, and that marriage is a covenant between one man and one woman for a lifetime.
“You are right because you called husbands to sacrificially love and lead their wives.
“You are right because you called wives to graciously submit to their husband’s sacrificial leadership.
“You are right because you affirmed that the husband and wife are of equal worth before God.
“You are right because you reminded us that children are a blessing and heritage from the Lord.
“More importantly, you are right because your statement is based on biblical truth.”
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 7:03 PM
The point is, the belief is pointless in the context of a governmental executive leadership position (which is why I think that even bringing it up is a non sequitur). Husband-wife interactions–other than law-breaking ones–are personal, not political.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 7:03 PM
Not even remotely close.
Esthier on December 11, 2007 at 7:04 PM
Ok, look folks, this is not a slouch toward sharia, it is not a violation of church & state, this is not a condoning of wife beating, etc.
This is an issue that has caused a lot of lively discussion in Baptist circles for years with impassioned opinions on both sides. The truth of the matter is, that this is not a statement Huckabee made up, nor the Southern Baptist Convention. It is in the Bible. And yes, people interpret it different ways.
While the Scripture says, “as the church submits to Christ, wives also submit to your husbands”…it also says “husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church”…hardly an advocation of spousal abuse.
This is one of those issues where a verse is cherry-picked for it’s controversial value, but is often completely misunderstood or misrepresented.
CP on December 11, 2007 at 7:05 PM
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:00 PM
Very well put. And frankly, if it does dog Huckabee right out of the race, I couldn’t be happier about it. Whatever it takes.
Laura on December 11, 2007 at 7:05 PM
Well if you disagree, yes I want an answer. And no, I’m not interested in “scoring points”, I was trying to MAKE a point – that this religious baggage, which he has purposefully made a keystone of his campaign, is one more example of why Huckabee absolutely sucks as a Republican choice for President.
peski on December 11, 2007 at 7:06 PM
That might be the most ill-informed comment I’ve seen on this blog.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:06 PM
This won’t even leave a mark. It’s not like his recent rise is coming out of the sorority sister’s vote. His constituency knows that this is in the bible and that he is serious about his faith. Also, if you look at some of the other signatures, these are not foaming at the mouth radicals. And also he will just spin it as a support for traditional family values. Always a winner in Iowa.
sweeper on December 11, 2007 at 7:07 PM
I’d agree with you, but I’d rather it weren’t because of his adherence to his own faith. It shouldn’t exclude Romney, and it shouldn’t exclude anyone else who isn’t using faith to break the law.
Esthier on December 11, 2007 at 7:08 PM
What did she say?
Entelechy on December 11, 2007 at 7:08 PM
Are we sure we want to be taking our debate ques from DailyKOS.
bnelson44 on December 11, 2007 at 7:08 PM
I’m no Huckabee fan (as if that wasn’t obvious), but I’d hate to write millions of Christians entirely out of politics because of one bad candidate. And we ought to be clear here: If we let Biblical statements get taken out of context and used in ways that poison the environment for other Christians to run, that’s exactly what we’ll be doing. Imho that’s playing right into the secular leftist’s hands, and there will be consequences on the Republican coalition in the future if the party is seen to be overtly hostile to what millions of Christians hear in their churches week in and week out.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:10 PM
That is why a they are called WOman…causin they is woeful to the man.
tomas on December 11, 2007 at 7:10 PM
Sorry but for me, someone’s core beliefs and how they act personally have an impact on whether I’ll vote for them. Just like Rudy’s affair was a personal matter and many consider that a strike – if not the strike – against him.
amerpundit on December 11, 2007 at 7:10 PM
My Christian husband(I’m Jewish) is 11 years my senior-so he gets points for age…that said I told him if he wants “obedience”…adopt a puppy.LOL
Seriously though-I hope this latest ‘blunder’ buries Huck.
Conservatives deserve better.
annoyinglittletwerp on December 11, 2007 at 7:11 PM
I believe it was “whatever, dear; now please bring some chocolate and a glass of bourbon.”
see-dubya on December 11, 2007 at 7:14 PM
Another case of stuff being blown out of proportion. This statement being signed was well publicized when it came out in the media. It was for the Southern Baptist Convention. Yes it says the husband is the head of the wife but it also says the husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. That means every decision the husband makes is the best for his family.. in other words, he puts them first, ahead of himself and his needs. He may make the final decision but he does it all for her. She is number 1.. not him.
This is a non issue.
GoodBoy on December 11, 2007 at 7:15 PM
That can be said for about half of the comments on this thread so far.
CorinthianJest on December 11, 2007 at 7:17 PM
Promise Keeper
tomas on December 11, 2007 at 7:17 PM
It’s not going to hurt him a bit. It’s a basic biblical principle and one easily explained as part of his personal faith and not having anything to do with public government policy.
It’s funny I accused people here of using leftist type attacks on Huckabee. I didn’t expect you to actually start linking to DKos for them.
There’s a lot in the ellipsis there that is left out.
bj1126 on December 11, 2007 at 7:18 PM
As Huck is a Southern Baptist (?) preacher, I would expect him to have signed this. I grew up in the Southern Baptist church and this really isn’t shocking news. My mom doesn’t believe women should be in the pulpit – says it’s not a woman’s place to preach. (shrug) Doesn’t change anything really.
People pay way too much attention to little details that really don’t tell you what you need to know – and here, what I need to know is whether Huck would be a good president or not. His religious beliefs don’t tell me that.
kippras on December 11, 2007 at 7:20 PM
I can’t stop laughing! :)
Nelsa on December 11, 2007 at 7:20 PM
Agreed.
A baptist preacher affirming baptist doctrine… o.O
Who’da thunk it ?
elgeneralisimo on December 11, 2007 at 7:21 PM
That’s cute, but the passage clearly has nothing to do with obedience, or if it does, it at least doesn’t mean the kind you’d receive from a dog.
Women are to “submit” to their husbands who are to love them like Christ. This is the same king of love Hosea was to show his hooker wife.
That’s hardly the case of a man controlling his woman.
Esthier on December 11, 2007 at 7:22 PM
Bryan – I agree with your interpretation of that scripture (and often overlooked is the number of verses/commands aimed at the husband versus the wife), but think Huckabee’s focus on his faith as a qualification for office has opened him up to this sort of thing, unfortunately. If he hadn’t made the “Christian leader” thing such a focus of his campaign, this would be a non-issue.
Slublog on December 11, 2007 at 7:22 PM
I read what you said carefully, and agree, and will be careful. But I think Evangelicals themselves will have to reject Huckabee because he is a deeply flawed candidate. That will ensure their place at the table. If he wasn’t so flawed, perhaps it would be time to make their stand.
JiangxiDad on December 11, 2007 at 7:25 PM
If my husband said something like that to me, he’d be sleeping out back with the dogs.
Keli on December 11, 2007 at 7:25 PM
I don’t want to get in a position of defending the guy, but politicians separate their religious beliefs from their political beliefs all the time… though with Huckster, not quite so much.
Hollowpoint on December 11, 2007 at 7:26 PM
and probably with a swelling knot on his head too
Keli on December 11, 2007 at 7:26 PM
If your hubby said that he woudn’t be following what it really means.
GoodBoy on December 11, 2007 at 7:28 PM
Yup. Agreed, Huck opened himself up to this, and agreed, he’s a deeply flawed candidate that I don’t support and hope fellow evangelicals will come around to reject as well. I just don’t want all Christian candidates tossed out because of him, and that’s a serious possibility here.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:33 PM
As I said-I’M JEWISH.
I was a Christian for 11 years and was married in a church…and actually wanted to say obey in our vows.
My husband nixed the idea because he knows me too well. lol
Anyway the “submission thing” is the least of my problems with Huck.
We’re both leaning toward Fred-though I think it may be too little…to late.
Not that it matters.
By the time the Illinois primary comes around the race ‘ll be all over.
*sigh*
annoyinglittletwerp on December 11, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Well, stop laughing because the post you’re laughing at is a reflection of its author’s ignorance of the jihadist mentality and Christian doctrine, and reflects poorly on the both of you.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Agreed.
Huh.
This doesn’t make for exciting blog debate, does it? Hmmm…RON PAUL!!!!1111!!11
Slublog on December 11, 2007 at 7:37 PM
Ron Paul is looking better and better everyday.
muyoso on December 11, 2007 at 7:42 PM
Bryan-I suppose it was just a “knee jerk” reaction on my part.
Emphasis on “Jerk” part :)
You are correct!
Nelsa on December 11, 2007 at 7:43 PM
Bryan,
What if God wants Huck to be president?
GoodBoy on December 11, 2007 at 7:46 PM
Disagree with what? Are you honest to God (no pun intended) asking me about
? And whether I
I think he sucks as a choice for president also. But I couldn’t care less about his personal religious belief about how a husband and wife relate to each other.
That you saw fit to go there tells me more about you than him.
baldilocks on December 11, 2007 at 7:48 PM
Completely understood and agreed.
peski on December 11, 2007 at 7:48 PM
Oh, I’m not saying we shouldn’t make the effort to defend the doctrine – I agree with it and live by it, in fact, but come on… You know, we all know, that even where it isn’t willfully misunderstood, it’s still a very divisive, knee-jerk rejection kind of issue for a lot of people including many Christians. The world is not going to accept it or condone it in any way, now or ever.
But I think I can be pardoned if I enjoy the fact that Huck will be hoisted on his own petard. Perhaps if his soul had let him take actual conservative stances on a few issues, people would be attacking him for those political positions, instead of the faith he chose to put front and center.
Laura on December 11, 2007 at 7:49 PM
Hm. Then, God help us.
Bryan on December 11, 2007 at 7:49 PM
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