http://allafrica.com/stories/200712050017.html

I’m a cradle Episcopalian and I like Sentamu. I think he’s a positive influence on the C of E and the whole Anglican Communion. And the C of E instituted women’s ordination (properly, IMHO) long before Sentamu came along.

There has been a lot of misinformation about what the Episcopal Church teaches here on this site. If you want to know what the teachings really are, google “book of common prayer” and look for the section titled “an outline of the faith, commonly called the catechism”.

baldilocks on December 10, 2007 at 8:13 PM

I’m quite passionate about this topic. I’ve been in and out of Zim for over 20 years and I have never seen anything like it.

I have very good friends still living there and it is a very hard life right now. In Harare, power is off most of the day now (except for Mugabe’s various homes), the basics such as meat, water, fresh vegetables, bread and fruits are practically non-existent as Mugabe froze prices below cost.

Even on the black market, most basic staples are almost impossible to find.

Inflation is projected to exceed 100,000% this year, and the shilling is as worthless as monopoly money.

Robert Mugabe has taken the breadbasket of Africa and turned it into an improvished nation where people are starving by the millions.

The fact that a man of some note will stand up and decry this human disaster is noble, regardless of his religion.

I think it has more to do with a visceral hatred for the Colonial powers and Western Civilization than racism. The African nations who support Mugabwe are not much different in their thinking than the average Hollywood celebrity or liberal College professor.

Buy Danish on December 10, 2007 at 6:50 PM

A lot of them don’t expect civilized behavior from black people either (remember the Free Mumia/Save Tookie types.)

Here’s a man who is taking a stand against one of the most brutal dictators on the continent of Africa and all you guys want to do is debate his religion. What freakin difference does it make?

I guess all of the homeless vets whose homes Mugabe bulldozed will sleep better tonight knowing the Bishop is not quite up to par.

BacaDog on December 10, 2007 at 7:52 PM

Thank you.

Here’s a man who is taking a stand against one of the most brutal dictators on the continent of Africa and all you guys want to do is debate his religion. What freakin difference does it make?

I guess all of the homeless vets whose homes Mugabe bulldozed will sleep better tonight knowing the Bishop is not quite up to par.

Mugabe is Catholic. I don’t think he would give up power if the pope threatened abdication. “Wear your collar bishop. I’m not surpised by your stunt because C of E is an arm of the monarchy. When Empire shrinks, it hurts even the clergy .” says I.

And I am sure Dr Sentamu did the same thing during Apartheid. Get over your self man.

A pathetic gesture by a pathetic media-hungry man. I have no doubt he’ll be the next Archbishop of Canterbury, I also have no doubt that he’ll drive the congregation numbers of the CoE even further down as his theatrics and ignorance of how the non-spiritual world actually works repel all but the most fundamental of Christians.

The Archbishop is clowning from a comfort of distance. He is pandering to western sentiment. His collar should have long been chopped to pieces when exclusionary tendencies of the western world ensured black people, even those born in the so-called first world, are treated as third class citizens! The lot of the black man in the western world is despicable to say the least. Subtle exclusion is at the heart of these societies. This should be the Archbishop’s crusade not the collar-cutting charade on a “tabloid” TV media!

ThackerAgency on December 10, 2007 at 6:53 PM

Correct. In fact, the full name, the Protestant Episcopal Church, confuses people into believing that the Church is Protestant in the sense that Lutherans, Baptists, etc. are.

The Protestant title was used to note that the Church was not Roman Catholic. Most text books still call Anglicanism a Protestant denomination, but traditionalists believe its roots lie not with Henry VIII but with the Church founded by missionaries in the late second century. As such, we consider it to be Catholic in the same way Orthodox and Christians are Catholic in that they can trace their origins to the first Christians through an unbroken Apostolic succession and in keeping all seven Sacraments.

And referring to the Episcopal Church’s “Christian nature” is an brilliant way to describe it. The nature of it is there, but it’s not the same as actual Christianity. (Note that this is regarding the pagan rituals that have been adopted as of late, as well as the refusal of Bishops to declare Christ the one true means of salvation, not just priestesses.)

And the school which I loved and still love gave me a poor impression of the Episcopalian faith. . . though I am still appreciative of the Christian nature of it.

The national organization is pretty detached and on its own PC-bent that doesn’t really reflect on what goes on in the individual churches, which seems to be the case with many of the national organizations of various denominations.

brak on December 10, 2007 at 6:35 PM

If men like (the retired) Bishop Spong of New Jersey are running the show, if you live in a place like New Jersey you’re pretty much outta luck getting past the “PC-bent”.

baldilocks on December 10, 2007 at 6:45 PM

I think it has more to do with a visceral hatred for the Colonial powers and Western Civilization than racism. The African nations who support Mugabwe are not much different in their thinking than the average Hollywood celebrity or liberal College professor.

brak on December 10, 2007 at 6:35 PM

So true. In fact, there was a time that a parish could select any priest they wanted. Now, they must select from a list that the Bishop puts together, and if none of the priests suits their fancy, then T.S.

peski on December 10, 2007 at 6:38 PM

Sacred Tradition is not a solely Roman Catholic concept. The Anglican Church followed it until just the last few decades. Also note that the Orthodox Church is the largest “anti-Papist” denomination in the world. Far be it from me to defend the right of the Pope to claim the role of the Vicar of Christ!!!

Good post see-dubya. Also, and this may go without saying, but many Episcopal churches are themselves still very traditional and on the whole pretty conservative. The national organization is pretty detached and on its own PC-bent that doesn’t really reflect on what goes on in the individual churches, which seems to be the case with many of the national organizations of various denominations.

brak on December 10, 2007 at 6:35 PM

I agree completely with everything you wrote, except that the national organization does exert pressure at the local level, mostly through targeted placement of priests.

She’d be very welcome by some Australians.

Buy Danish on December 10, 2007 at 6:28 PM

You’ll never find me defending this tool, and my defense of Episcopals is really only half hearted, because I don’t believe any of this crap. But as ThackerAgency on December 10, 2007 at 6:18 PM noted, the Christian tent is a lot bigger than that allowed by the “Sacred Tradition” of the papist line.

see-dubya on December 10, 2007 at 6:22 PM

I don’t know that I’d describe the Episcopal Church as “bland” but to say that it is “watered down” is an understatement.

see-dubya on December 10, 2007 at 6:22 PM

Right. A lot of people don’t get that difference. I was just using the American name, since I’m, well, American. My parish is a strong supporter of the Diocese of Northern Malawi, in Africa, which is nothing like its wayward Western cousins.

Which brings me to our second Jill: the new Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, the first woman to run a national division of the Anglican Communion. Bishop Kate gave an interview to the New York Times revealing what passes for orthodoxy in this most flexible of faiths. She was asked a simple enough question: “How many members of the Episcopal Church are there?”

“About 2.2 million,” replied the presiding bishop. “It used to be larger percentage-wise, but Episcopalians tend to be better educated and tend to reproduce at lower rates than other denominations.”

This was a bit of a jaw-dropper even for a New York Times hackette, so, with vague memories of G-d saying something about going forth and multiplying floating around the back of her head, a bewildered Deborah Solomon said: “Episcopalians aren’t interested in replenishing their ranks by having children?”

“No,” agreed Bishop Kate. “It’s probably the opposite. We encourage people to pay attention to the stewardship of the earth and not use more than their portion.”

Now, that may or may not be a great idea, but it’s nothing to do with Christianity, only for eco-cultists like Al Gore. If Bishop Kate were an Episcogorian, a member of the Alglican Communion, an elder of the Church of Latter-Day Chads, this would be an unremarkable statement. But, even in their vigorous embrace of gay bishoprics and all the rest, I don’t recall the Episcopalians formally embracing the strategy that worked out so swell for the Shakers and enshrining a disapproval of reproduction at the heart of their doctrine.

She’d be very welcome by some Australians.

There are many Christians who do not believe this. I will not comment on it further. I am just stating it.

ThackerAgency on December 10, 2007 at 6:18 PM

Correct.

There are a lot of Anglican churches in the US which have no affiliation with the ECUSA. Usually they’re more theologically and or/liturgically conservative than ECUSA churches (although some also take on a more evangelical, “low church” approach). These are often called “the Continuing Church” and many of them use the nice old 1928 Prayer Book.

There are also Anglican Rite Catholic Churches, like this one in Houston, that use a modified version of Anglican liturgy but are still considered Roman Catholic.

Anyway, all this to say don’t assume that every Anglican church signs off on the worst excesses of ECUSA. And if you are looking for traditional, reverent worship with some theological punch to it, look into the Continuing Anglican Movement.

(Resuming ordinary level of pedantry)

Thanks, BD. Remember, though, that there is a big, big difference between human tradition, which is fallible (such as, We’ve always had slavery! etc.) and Sacred Tradition.

Damian G. on December 10, 2007 at 6:11 PM

peski on December 10, 2007 at 6:20 PM

Show me a Sacred Tradition, and I’ll show you the man (or woman) who invented it.

Thanks, BD. Remember, though, that there is a big, big difference between human tradition, which is fallible (such as, We’ve always had slavery! etc.) and Sacred Tradition.

Damian G. on December 10, 2007 at 6:11 PM

Because the priesthood is sanctioned by the Divine and not men,

There are many Christians who do not believe this. I will not comment on it further. I am just stating it.

When Mugabe took power, he stripped all the white farmers in the country of their farmland. The people he gave the land to had no idea how to farm. . . so the farms did not produce like they did under the white farmers (which fed the population).

Now, what do you think the international and media reaction would have been had a white government confiscated black people’s land?

Of course they didn’t start starving until the year after he confiscated the land. . . but the crime began when he took the land from the people who were using it to benefit the community because of their skin color. It’s as racist as they come. . . but it isn’t ‘apartheid’ so nobody cares.

I figure everyone commenting on here about the irrelevant theological differences between Christians knew this history. But Christianity is about Jesus, not anything else idolized by and created by mankind (ie. a collar, or ‘apostolic succession’). I do applaud this man for recognizing a serious human rights issue that has evolved into an unnecessary humanitarian crisis.

Buy Danish on December 10, 2007 at 6:03 PM

Thanks, BD. Remember, though, that there is a big, big difference between human tradition, which is fallible (such as, We’ve always had slavery! etc.) and Sacred Tradition.

Great point about Schori, BTW. She is the epitome of heresy – how ironic her home State is Nevada. (No offence to any Nevadans here present!)

peski on December 10, 2007 at 6:01 PM

Only in the face of politically correct mores. Because the priesthood is sanctioned by the Divine and not men, then by mortal social standards, God is misogynist.