I only just now came back to this thread. In fact, someone else wrote about the water, which I respond to here. I still don’t think our Mahometan friend has a good answer. (Seriously: I’m a Christian, but there’s a lot I don’t understand and I’m wary of dogmatism.) But if you, Right2Bright or, for that matter, you Vanceone, can add anything, I’d love to hear it. (Assuming either of you comes back here.)

Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 6:36 PM

I think even you know what I mean when I say “living prophets” (or are you that…naw your just being funny). This is the kind of double talk Mormons are famous for. Thanks for the illustration.

Thus, you claim, one or the other must be false.

Exactly, now you are catching on, one or the other is false…very good.
Hello, are you listening, Duet. explains the test of a prophet, they don’t have to be perfect, just when speaking for the Lord. You know that is the standard and you know that I have quoted that several times in past posts with you. It is quite clear and you know it (or you should, or if you do you may not want to).
Your sinking…sinking

During a Priesthood session of conference in October of 1976, Spencer W. Kimball labeled Brigham’s teaching “false doctrine.” He stated, “We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine”

Now look at this:

“How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which is revealed to them, and which God revealed to me — namely that Adam is our father and God…Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or ever will come upon the earth” (Sermon delivered on June 8, 1873. Printed in the Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873.) How can a Latter-day Saint maintain this was just Brigham’s opinion when he insisted God gave him the teaching?

Looks like his sermon was for real after all…even he admitted it, although now you are calling him a liar. (Even I think he was telling the truth when he thought he was speaking for God, apparently you think he is lying)
And look at this:

Young was confident with his message for on January 2, 1870, he said, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture” (Journal of Discourses 13:95). Brigham would repeat this again in October of the same year (Journal of Discourses 13:264).

Okay, I think I am done for tonight…sleep tight with those quotes.
Take your pick, is it Smith or Young who is the false prophet.
Quit while you still have your faith…but then facts obviously will not stop your faith. I know, I know, nothing will shake your faith, not even the truth.
How many of the ancient civilizations in the Book of Mormon have been identified? Does the National Geographic know of any, how about the Smithsonian? Here is the answer
nite nite, sleep tite

Now, if you had been honest, and printed the FULL Brigham Young quote, you would see that you are (as usual) incorrect. It’s here. So, we see that unlike your contention, Brigham Young gave two prerequisites: 1) He had to have a chance to correct the sermon after review, and two, it had to be announced as scripture. Nowhere was anything about “adam-god” ever presented, announced, or submitted as scripture.

However, since you say that living prophets are bad…. does that mean you cannot accept the Bible? After all, they were living once. And you yourself say that you cannot follow a living prophet…. so you wouldn’t have followed them, then. So please, renounce all faith. Your own logic compels you to. I doubt you will, you will continue in your hypocrisy, but maybe you can explain to me how all the Biblical prophets were perfect, since apparently they could never be wrong. And if they were perfect, then the Bible is wrong, since it says only one person was perfect: Christ.

Your argument dooms the Bible, right2bright. By requiring Spokesmen for the Lord to never, ever be wrong, you automatically destroy the prophets (how many times was Peter wrong?) I’ll gladly put myself alongside them.

Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 3:01 PM

Thanks for your answers. I don’t put limitations on God as you do, I do not define his role, he defines mine. So when you say what does he do with his body, you are assuming he is like you.
You can’t conceive that a God can be what he wants, but that is the mind of a mortal man.

But glad that you feel one should be excommunicated.
Your prophet Kimball felt the same way:
“We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some General Authorities of past generations, such, for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine”

He said that about this,from the Prophet Brigham Young:
” In this message, Mormonism’s second president explained that Eve was only one of Adam’s wives and that Jesus Christ “was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.” Instead, Young said, He “was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven.”

Now here is a problem, your Prophet (perfect in his predictions) has spoken as a prophet, but look what he said. Should he have been excommunicated (he never renounced it). See the problem with following living prophets…they turn out to be, well, a little wrong.
But you can’t deny that,because that breaks the string of “prophets”, but you can’t accept it because that embraces wrong theology. Oh my, your elders have tried to bury this for years.

Brigham Young places the honest Latter-day Saint on the horns of a dilemma. If the Mormon wishes to claim Young as a true prophet, he must also accept his Adam-God teaching since a true prophet must have a correct theology concerning God (Deut. 13:1-3). If Young’s teaching is not accepted, then the Mormon must conclude that Brigham Young was a false prophet. The Mormon can’t have it both ways.

Thank you for being so honest. Now you have to be honest one more time…look at the dilemma, and answer yourself, do you want to follow false Prophets?
And as for your grade school, Mormon response about Jonah…here is the explanation that you need to remember, the prophesy was carried out, Jonah changed their hearts and God did not have to carry out his “promise”, his promise was fulfilled. Here

Oh, here is your answer to the trinity: Trinity

You want to know about the Nicene creed? Read it yourself–it’s incomprehensible. It’s rife with contradictions, impossibilities, and does not make sense. That’s why it is such a “mystery” to Christians–precisely because it doesn’t make sense.

But specifics: In the Nicean trinity, it lables God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost as “co-equal.” Great, except Christ himself said that “my father is greater than I.” John 14:28 The Nicean creed does away with the doctrine of Subordination. Which was held practically universally by the early Christians. “There is no theologian in the Eastern or the Western Church before the outbreak of the Arian Controversy, who does not in some sense regard the Son as subordinate to the Father.” (The Search for the Christian Doctrine of God, R. P. C. Hanson).

What authority did the Nicene creed have to destroy that doctrine? If every Christian before that creed held the doctrine of Subordination, then wouldn’t logically it have been the truth? Or did the early Christian fathers just happen to be wrong on that matter–you know, the ones that were closest to the apostles?

These are simple things. Another question–what happens to Christ’s body (I presume He still has it, right?) when He, the Triune God, is acting as the Holy Ghost? Or does the Holy Ghost have Christ’s resurrected body? When Christ says that the Father sent him–is what He really saying, “I sent myself, but couldn’t be bothered to mention that distinction?”

And what is wrong with believing that Christ was born just like any other mortal? He was born of a virgin, but he was born as a baby, just as any other baby, and in the same way. That doesn’t mean He was conceived in the same way, though. His body was the uniting of both human and divine characteristics. Yes, His father was physically God the Father.

What you freak out about is “That means Mormons believe that Mary had sex!!!!!” Nonsense–The Holy Ghost was involved. Surely you’ve heard of artificial insemination? I have no idea what process Heavenly Father used to give His son a physical body, but to jump to the conclusion that we believe Mary had sex is simply irresponsible, though valuable for demonizing us, of course.

And no, I will never remove the Book of Mormon from my faith. Unlike you, I am not scared of the idea that God loves all His children and preached the gospel to many of them. Why are you afraid of receiving more of God’s word?

I will answer your two questions this way: Was Jonah a false prophet? He preached the destruction of Ninevah, but it never happened. If Jonah could still be a prophet, yet be wrong, or the Lord change His mind…. and if Paul could discourse about how women shouldn’t ever speak in church and should stick to certain styles of grooming (or do you believe all that as well?), yet it not be in force for today…. why should we have to follow every single thing that Brigham Young said? It may well have been important for the people back then what he said. But just as we don’t sacrifice goats anymore, despite THAT being scripture, we are not held to everything Brigham Young, or Joseph Smith, or Peter, or Moses, wrote either.

The doctrines binding on the church are those accepted as such, by a sustaining vote of the church members. Not whatever quote you can dig up that usually was a secondhand report.

Question two: false doctrine? Usually, you are corrected. If not, you tend to be excommunicated.

Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 1:07 PM

And what part of the Nicene creed do you not believe in? So now you are backing away from your prophets and founders who said this:

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers”

But we are making headway.
You have denounced the practice of marrying 14 yr. olds (although you still defend their relationship…have you seen how he obtained that girl for marriage, a promise of salvation to the parents, how sweet of him)
You agree that Christ died for our sins, you have a difficult time with the Nicene Creed, but read it a few times. Set it aside, then read it again, and it will make sense.
Now we can work on getting rid of those stories about ancient civilizations that have never been found, and we can begin removing the Book of Mormon out of your faith. Now that they have all but proved that the Indians do not have any Jewish DNA, that you can’t baptize any Jews who have passed. Things are moving in the right direction. When you open your eyes and see that the prophesies of Smith are rift with mistakes.
Just two important questions:
Did Brigham Young state this?:

“I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture. Let me have the privilege of correcting a sermon and it is as good Scripture as they deserve”

What is the punishment in the Mormon church for preaching false doctrine?
Just these two questions, if nothing else.
*
And no, I don’t write for money. And I have never received payment for anything I wrote religiously. I have written hundreds of devotions and study’s, all (the few) that have been published the money went to the church…100% including publishing costs.
And I have never written anything that could be even close to what you are getting at.
None of my writings have even mentioned the LDS or Mormon’s, I post here to keep you “honest”, and it has been tough.

Who said we don’t believe that Christ shed his blood on the Cross for our sins? That’s just your fevered imagination. Of course He did. He also suffered in the Garden for them, where He sweat great drops of blood. Or was that just His idea of a vacation, in your opinion? As for your imagery of an empty cross, okay, but we prefer the empty tomb. Oh NOES! Those evil Mormons actually believe in the resurrection after all–what WILL you do, right2bright? Your whole world is now exploding, I assume, since your entire existence seems to be “How can I demonize LDS beliefs today?”

Seriously–you’ve never answered: Do you or do you not write books on the LDS church and get paid for them?

Rose on December 11, 2007 at 11:10 AM

I agree, however certain gifts are given to people. a couple are to lead and educate.
Faith and the Church is built upon God’s words, but the doctrine of the Church is mans doing. And, by biblical mandate, it has to be in error…just where are the errors? That is where we will turn to the bible, and the bible (even the KJV) was 98% correct. Now, the new bibles are so accurate that we argue about mis-placed predicates. Some of the new study bibles are phenomenal in their accuracy.
But always keep an open mind about prophets, if they fit the standard of the bible, then they are the messengers of God. It is just that the standards are so high, none have reached (or even come close)to that in the past 2,000 years.

BKennedy on December 11, 2007 at 2:11 AM

And BK do you go along with the misplaced predicate or do you choose the the Septuagint Greek explanation? Regarding ego eimi. Easier to take the LXX route, but I don’t totally agree with their premise. It’s one of the more controversial words in the bible. Care to comment?

BKennedy on December 11, 2007 at 2:11 AM

Well loudmouth, you don’t read very well.
I have stated countless times that being a religious leader and a politician is just plain wrong…especially from the biblical stand point. “You can’t serve two masters”.

And you obviously do not comprehend the difference between faith and doctrine. You spew out words of hate, without any reference. You are the type of person who sits on the sidelines of an argument and tries to stir the crowd with anger, or you are the one yelling for the person to jump from a building because you get a rush…but you are always on the sidelines sniping.
So go ahead and bitch, that is what you are a little bitch.

Vanceone on December 11, 2007 at 4:17 AM

You’re the one dissing the Nicene Creed. So what part do you now denounce?

The Mormon’s concept of Jesus is different than the Bible’s. When their Jesus went into the Garden of Gethsemane, he shed there his blood for the transgression of sins. The LDS Church does not accept the biblical idea that Christ’s blood was shed on the cross to wash away our sins – present, past and future. Mormons fail to realize that the empty cross is for Christians the symbol of their salvation and the fulfillment of God’s promise.

Now what part of that is wrong?
You are continuously trying to catch me in a “I gotcha”.
And you are now saying Mormon’s now accept these (creeds) as the “truth”? You have now replaced these beliefs with Smith’s?
Please, be honest, you have your “Jesus”, Christians have theirs. They are (pun intended) worlds apart. You want so bad to be a Christian, that you will try to deceive people into believing that your “Christ” is the same as the Christians.
That is what I am talking about. Now if you accept Christ, as the Christians accept him, no argument…throw away your Book of Mormon and join the club….what you don’t quite believe the creed? I am correct in pointing out some of the differences? Well surely you don’t believe God came down and did the “dirty” with Mary do you?
Oh look what I found from Brigham Young, the other Prophet who married 14 yr. olds. (one of several Prophets teaching this)

“The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood – was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers”

Now it is my turn, your ignorance, or deception is mind-boggling.

So when you say we don’t believe that, you MUST be lying

National Bastage Cocksuckerorperation

Matt, the great American. (traiterous bastage)

And here we go again. AAaaarrrgggghhh!!!!

nbc strikes again. F**ing traitorous pigs.

and take away our most precious belief, that of the death and resurrection…hijack it, create some other story, and then wonder why we get upset.

Do you have any clue about LDS beliefs at all, or just what some anti-mormon has preached to you? How on earth did you get the idea that we don’t believe in Christ’s death and resurrection? You are simply out of your mind, man. We preach that Christ came to earth as God, lived a sinless life, suffered for our sins, died by crucifixion, and was resurrected with his physical body three days later–he came back to life. That is the core of our faith.

So when you say we don’t believe that, you MUST be lying, because you clearly know enough about the church to know that we believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. I cannot conceive how you do not know. This is the most blatant falsehood you’ve said yet.

But then, I believe you are actually incapable of believing that the LDS church could conceivably have some good in it.

*I’ve got to have my religion’s ass kissed publicly* people are one of the reasons that the Dem’s have regained as much power as they have already.

Put away your own ego and start rooting for what is best for our nation’s people and our nation.

You bunch of self-centered pricks.

If you don’t understand this, then go join a DUmbass committee and do us all a favor.

BKennedy on December 11, 2007 at 2:11 AM

Go ahead and declare for your candidate and get it over with. This is getting really boring.