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Rush: Conservative whining about Mitt’s failure to mention atheists is “poison”

posted at 6:49 pm on December 6, 2007 by Allahpundit
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My pal Barnett, who operates under the persistent mistaken impression that HA has some kind of major influence, heard Rush go off on this live and thought he was addressing my post. He was, in fact, responding to Ramesh and Jonah, of course. But close enough:

I’m telling you, as far as I’m concerned, I think he was inspiring. I think he set exactly the right tone in this speech. But back to the people criticizing him and what he said. They really ought to look at themselves in the mirror, because what they really seem to be saying when they say he didn’t reach out to the agnostics and the atheists and the Hindus, what I think they really seem to be saying is, if you don’t share my religion, not my beliefs, but my religion, then you’re not qualified to be president. What they’re saying is, you can never say enough, you can never say the right thing because you’re not of my religion, and therefore you’re not qualified to be president. Atheism is a religion, whether they want to believe it or not. Agnosticism is too. If you want to say that he didn’t reach out to them or the Hindus then he’s not qualified because he didn’t acknowledge them, what kind of analysis is that?

This is poison, this kind of analysis, coming from conservatives on reputable websites. When I saw it, I was distressed by it. I expect it from liberals; I expect that kind of reaction. He didn’t address the atheists and the agnostics? He didn’t really explain his religion? He really didn’t explain why he should be nominated and so forth? All of this that people are saying reveals partisan thinking, the thinking of those who support another candidate, not seriously thinking about the nature of the process here and what Romney was trying to do with the speech. They’re looking at this strictly within the confines of a political speech, and I think it went beyond those bounds. The critics — I guess it’s quite natural — they put their own agenda into this speech.He didn’t talk about taxes, they’re saying, he didn’t talk about electability. This wasn’t a speech about taxes. This wasn’t a speech about electability. It wasn’t a speech about policy. It was a speech about American values, what binds us together as a people and as a nation and what will continue to bind us together in the future as a nation.

The key there is “I think it went beyond those bounds.” I don’t, and I find it amazing given the timing that anyone could seriously claim otherwise. As I said, I don’t mind Mitt not mentioning atheists because I recognize the speech for what it is — a pander to Christians, and, as such, not one that would soothe any frayed evangelical nerves if it included a tender moment with the godless. Rush is treating it as a cri de coeur that transcends anything so mean as polls, but does anyone believe Mitt would have given this speech now, or at all, if he was 30 points up in Iowa and New Hampshire? It’s only if you take him seriously, like Rush, that you should have a problem with him omitting atheists and agnostics from a tribute to freedom of conscience, particularly when he went out of his way to mention other faiths by name and particularly since, with the exception of Jews, there’s probably no group in the religious vein that’s benefited more from America’s culture of tolerance.

As it is, here’s a question from Hitch’s new piece — and answer honestly: “If an atheist was running against him, would Romney make nothing of the fact?” So much for freedom of conscience.

I’m mystified by the other boldfaced parts. It sounds at first like Rush is lamenting the fact that Ramesh and Jonah were playing identity politics with the speech, focusing on the people who weren’t “included” instead of Mitt’s point about a common American morality. But then what’s that business where he suggests some selfish motive (“what I think they really seem to be saying is, if you don’t share my religion, not my beliefs, but my religion, then you’re not qualified to be president”)? That’s especially egregious since, unless I’m misreading badly, Ramesh and Jonah were trying to articulate an even grander notion of American morality than Mitt himself was. They’re talking about freedom of conscience, he’s talking about freedom of religious conscience. How you circumscribe that value depends partly on your politics, which, again, puts the lie to the speech being some sort of disinterested statement of universal principle.

Elsewhere tonight, James Dobson has gone ahead and done what all “private citizens” do after watching a big speech: He’s issued a press release. His verdict confirms that he can and will continue to be trusted as an analyst. Let’s see how he circumscribes the value:

“Gov. Romney’s speech was a magnificent reminder of the role religious faith must play in government and public policy. His delivery was passionate and his message was inspirational. Whether it will answer all the questions and concerns of Evangelical Christian voters is yet to be determined, but the governor is to be commended for articulating the importance of our religious heritage as it relates to today.

“Many in the media have been busily crafting the obituaries of ‘values voters’ in recent months. David Kirkpatrick of The New York Times, along with Tom Brokaw, Frank Rich and other liberal journalists, have been predicting a dramatic ‘Evangelical crackup’. They are dead wrong. Religion has already played a major role in this election cycle, and will continue to be evident through ’08. The sanctity of human life, the institution of marriage and the care and nurturing of children will be important issues to people of faith as they choose a new generation of leaders. You can take it to the bank.

“Again, Gov. Romney’s speech served as a reminder that religion has always played a significant role in electoral politics. Candidates who disregard the spiritual heritage of this great nation and its viability today will do so at their peril.”

Note well that last line, how it’s framed explicitly as a threat. He knows the speech was a pander. One which he still has the clout to make happen.


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Hewitt didn’t link the press release. I would like to read the whole thing.

terryannonline on December 6, 2007 at 6:59 PM

I would rather have a candidate who is proud to explain his faith and let the voters decide versus someone who is too casual and takes it for granted. Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee, you can tell they are a man whose faith helps define their life. Fred Thompson has said that attending church and have a church home isn’t a priority. Rudy ignores the core of Catholicism when he comes out as being pro-choice and pro gay marriage.

Dhornertx on December 6, 2007 at 7:00 PM

Hot Air does have influence!! More than you’ll ever know. You influence the influencers!

Dean Barnett on December 6, 2007 at 7:01 PM

Gotta admit, Rush’s perspective is pretty compelling:

It’s amazing how the Drive-By Media is going gaga over empty suits like Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton. Neither of those candidates can hold a candle to any of ours: Romney, Rudy, Fred Thompson, Huckabee, none of them can. They’re empty suits compared to our side, and for our side to sit here and start talking, “He didn’t address atheists”?

We’ve been circling the wagons and firing inward. Rush is saying let’s start fighting the enemies on the outside of the circle.

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 7:03 PM

PS check out my blog post I think it’s an important look at Governor Huckabee and the role of faith.

Dhornertx on December 6, 2007 at 7:04 PM

We’ve been circling the wagons and firing inward.

Nonsense. We’ll have nine months for that next year. This is primary season, exactly the right time for it.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:05 PM

The speech would still be going on if he mentioned every single possible religion including atheism and agnosticism. It’s absurd on its face to suggest he have to mention every one.

SouthernGent on December 6, 2007 at 7:08 PM

Nonsense. We’ll have nine months for that next year. This is primary season, exactly the right time for it.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:05 PM

Rush isn’t going to retire until every American agrees with him, AP.

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM

Ha, Dobson’s coming back to the fold and betting on Romney, probably to use his heretofore withheld pull as a bargaining chip and knowing it would make a difference… and hence, an even more important bargaining chip. What a coup if he gets the endorsement, assuming Dobson’s going to give his to anyone at all.

Vizzini on December 6, 2007 at 7:12 PM

I agree with Rush on this one.

Dobson should stay out of the political arena IMHO.

infidel4life on December 6, 2007 at 7:12 PM

The key there is “I think it went beyond those bounds.” I don’t, and I find it amazing given the timing that anyone could seriously claim otherwise. As I said, I don’t mind Mitt not mentioning atheists because I recognize the speech for what it is — a pander to Christians, and, as such, not one that would soothe any frayed evangelical nerves if it included a tender moment with the godless. Rush is treating it as a cri de coeur that transcends anything so mean as polls, but does anyone believe Mitt would have given this speech now, or at all, if he was 30 points up in Iowa and New Hampshire? It’s only if you take him seriously, like Rush, that you should have a problem with him omitting atheists and agnostics from a tribute to freedom of conscience, particularly when he went out of his way to mention other faiths by name and particularly since, with the exception of Jews, there’s probably no group in the religious vein that’s benefited more from America’s culture of tolerance.

As it is, here’s a question from Hitch’s new piece — and answer honestly: “If an atheist was running against him, would Romney make nothing of the fact?” So much for freedom of conscience.

OK Allah, I’m all fine with you being a little pissy because you’re an atheist. But come on, quoting Hitchens? That’s pretty damn desperate AP and you know it. You outsmart that bloviating moron every single day at HA and run circles around him when it comes to intellectual honesty, but give me a break.

Call Romney’s speech a pander all you want, color his motives all you want. You’re just like Ramesh and Jonah all the other pundit punks that think of what advances their agenda first and care about American values second. Seriously, since when does Ramesh, a Hindu turned atheist turned Catholic IIRC give a damn about atheists?

Any other day of any other weak they’d be laughing at this rainbow tolerance diversity garbage, but since it doesn’t suit their purpose today they’ve actually done a 180 and adopted it. To these professional loudmouths, nothing can ascend beyond politics.

BKennedy on December 6, 2007 at 7:12 PM

Agnosticism is a religion??? Is he on drugs again? Atheism requires faith, faith that there is no God when there is no evidence one way or the other. So, it can fairly be called a religion. But Agnosticism makes no such pretensions. It is not a religion. It is a philosophy based upon what is know, what is not known and what can and cannot be known.

tommylotto on December 6, 2007 at 7:13 PM

The key there is “I think it went beyond those bounds.” I don’t, and I find it amazing given the timing that anyone could seriously claim otherwise.

Are you talking about the content of the speech itself, or the motive behind it? Only if you conflate the two can you really make that statement. While I could agree with the statement in terms of Mitt’s motives (the same could have been said for JFK’s motives at the time), in content I think the speech most certainly did go beyond those bounds, and refreshingly so.

thirteen28 on December 6, 2007 at 7:14 PM

I agree with Rush 100%

All the other candidates talk about divisive issues and how they represent certain segments or beliefs and that is why you should vote for them. This has a Reagan-JFK type of flavor to it of lets all come together and see what is really important and how we can improve America. That is something Bush has tried and failed to do for 7 years with his lets be a Uniter not a Divider spiel.

AP I think you are totally dead wrong to want hom to go up there and talk about Mormonism. That would be the political kiss of death. That is what Huckabee does and he barely even gets away with it because he is Protestant. I will immediatly not vote for anyone who does that not matter what thier religion is and am surprised you arent the same. I have to force myself not to cringe for seven years when Bush talks about his “faith-based” policies.

Resolute on December 6, 2007 at 7:14 PM

Seriously, since when does Ramesh, a Hindu turned atheist turned Catholic IIRC give a damn about atheists?

He doesn’t. His concept of “American values” is just a smidge broader than yours.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:15 PM

Agnosticism is a religion??? Is he on drugs again? Atheism requires faith, faith that there is no God when there is no evidence one way or the other. So, it can fairly be called a religion. But Agnosticism makes no such pretensions. It is not a religion. It is a philosophy based upon what is know, what is not known and what can and cannot be known.

tommylotto on December 6, 2007 at 7:13 PM

That’s debatable, but agnostics you must admit are just as fervent about their beliefs philosophy as any other religious zealot.

SouthernGent on December 6, 2007 at 7:16 PM

AP I think you are totally dead wrong to want hom to go up there and talk about Mormonism.

I wish he didn’t have to talk about it at all. But he does. That’s my whole point: He decided he had to give the speech for political reasons. The stuff about American heritage, etc., is really just code for him saying to Christians, “Hey, look, isn’t it enough that I believe in God? Close enough, right?”

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:17 PM

AP, I don’t post here that often, but do check you guys out several times a day. I appreciate both the news, and your perspective as a non-militant atheist.

bikermailman on December 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM

bikermailman on December 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM

Thanks, dude. Much appreciated.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM

We’ve been circling the wagons and firing inward.

I’m not so sure. I think of a more apt description would be….well, imagine a picture of Algore handling a gun/rifle but only worse.

.

GT on December 6, 2007 at 7:19 PM

Given the Romney speech and Huckabee’s ascent and religion-baiting I understand that covering the role of religion in this race is unavoidable… but please allow me to vent without blaming AP or anyone in particular anyways:

ENOUGH ABOUT THE RELIGION TALK ALREADY FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD! No wonder the lefties think we’re a party who secretly want to install a theocracy. BLOODY HELL this is getting friggen’ old- does anyone actually give a crap about issues or credibility anymore, or is it all about religion, slick talk and looking good on TV??? Does anyone really think that politicians are the best people to represent their respective religions (or lack thereof)???

I know I’m not the only one, but sometimes I feel like the only one on an island in a sea of moron-water teaming with stupid-fish.

AAARRRRGGGGHHH!!!

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 7:20 PM

I heard part of Rush’s take on this today, but missed this broadside against Jonah (who I tend to agree with on issues like this) and Ramesh (who, along with K-Lo, normally annoys me to no end).

I don’t think Mitt’s omission is a deal-breaker for me (an agnostic), but I think Jonah, Ramesh, and AP are right on this, and that Rush is wrong.

It’s too bad, because the part of Rush that I *did* hear this afternoon was terrific.

Purple Fury on December 6, 2007 at 7:24 PM

Call Romney’s speech a pander all you want, color his motives all you want. You’re just like Ramesh and Jonah all the other pundit punks that think of what advances their agenda first and care about American values second. Seriously, since when does Ramesh, a Hindu turned atheist turned Catholic IIRC give a damn about atheists?

Any other day of any other weak they’d be laughing at this rainbow tolerance diversity garbage, but since it doesn’t suit their purpose today they’ve actually done a 180 and adopted it. To these professional loudmouths, nothing can ascend beyond politics.

BKennedy on December 6, 2007 at 7:12 PM

And what exactly are you implying AP’s agenda is? Anything other than simply vetting the candidates with the hope of nominating the best one and getting him elected? And that very well could be Romney, despite his ridiculous religious baggage. It certainly isn’t the Huckster, because a religious bag is all he is.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:25 PM

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:17 PM

I think he had to do it for the broader movement, let’s be real here, this was aimed at evangelicals who are letting their bias guide them instead of policy and stance, I don’t see it as a pander, I see it as a gentle “pull your head out of your ass” speech.

bikermailman on December 6, 2007 at 7:18 PM

And I’ll second that, I know you feel kicked around sometimes, but you do a good job and it deserves acknowledgment from time to time.

Bad Candy on December 6, 2007 at 7:26 PM

The stuff about American heritage, etc., is really just code for him saying to Christians, “Hey, look, isn’t it enough that I believe in God? Close enough, right?”

“Can I get me a Rick Warren endorsement, here?”

Slublog on December 6, 2007 at 7:27 PM

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 7:20 PM

And I’ll second this. I haven’t reached “Mad as hell” stage, but I could see myself going there if the religion crap doesn’t tone the hell down in this campaign.

Bad Candy on December 6, 2007 at 7:28 PM

I used to call myself an atheist – until atheists gave us such a bad name. On one very key and fundemental issue, atheists are no different from the ‘religionists’ they so despise, and that is faith. Today’s atheists have faith that God does not exist! Fine, but dont pretend that your faith is any better that anyone elses – and to do so is the exact thing atheists pretend to rail against.

I am agnostic because I think god does not exist, BUT, I don’t know… I dont have that faith.

The only problem I have with either religion (God exists vs. god does not exist) is when they bludgeon me with their gospel, demanding that I “believe”, and follow the dictates of the high priest. I am not, in any way diminished, nor offended, nor outraged, by adherents practicing their faith, even outspokenly, when it is done respectful of my right to dissent. Hitchen’s Atheism and Huckabee’s Christianity offend me because of this, whereas Romney’s Mormanism does not. More bluntly, of the three, only one is not thrusting their faith into my face.

bains on December 6, 2007 at 7:29 PM

Agnosticism is a religion??? Is he on drugs again? Atheism requires faith, faith that there is no God when there is no evidence one way or the other. So, it can fairly be called a religion. But Agnosticism makes no such pretensions. It is not a religion. It is a philosophy based upon what is know, what is not known and what can and cannot be known.

tommylotto on December 6, 2007 at 7:13 PM

That’s debatable, but agnostics you must admit are just as fervent about their beliefs philosophy as any other religious zealot.

SouthernGent on December 6, 2007 at 7:16 PM

Being fervent doesn’t make it a religion. And being an atheist requires no “faith” at all that god doesn’t exist. It just a matter of taking the world at face value and going forward. The day the sun fails to rise in the east I’ll stop assuming that it always will. Requires no faith whatsoever to understand that that will never happen (in my lifetime).

peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:29 PM

imagine a picture of Algore handling a gun/rifle but only worse.

GT on December 6, 2007 at 7:19 PM

On the HA I read, there are some pretty skilled marksmen, and legions of others who just wield cudgels. It’ll be a fine day when we can all be united against our true opponents: the radical Left. I don’t consider Mitt an opponent.

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 7:30 PM

AP, just so I am clear with what you’re saying: given the timing of the speech, and the surrounding political circumstances, it is unreasonable to think that Mitt purposed his speech to be what Rush thought it was? In other words, you think he was pandering, but hit the lofty “American heritage” tones along the way to his real purpose, which is giving Christians a peace of mind about voting for him and increasing his numbers.

Weight of Glory on December 6, 2007 at 7:32 PM

Man, I need to find some way to listen to Rush more often. He seems to have been on a tear lately what with Fred’s talk with Charlie Rose and now Mitt’s “Don’t Hate Me Because I Believe” speech.

Whether or not Mitt was pandering, I don’t know. I just can’t bring myself to trust the man any further than I can throw him. I will say he seemed a bit more forthright in this speech than any other time that I’ve seen him.

I wish he didn’t have to make this speech. The question of “If a candidate was an atheist…” is a red herring and a grenade in the conversation. There’s no way a Christian can answer that question without being flamed. If I say I wouldn’t vote for them I’m a Theocrat. If I would vote for them I’m a hypocrite.

The notion that he had to mention any other religion or Faith is absurd as well. This whole thing had to happen because many folks don’t get the whole Mormon thing. Romney took a position much like Kennedy that a President must lead all the people without regard to their religion or Faith. From what I’ve read/heard so far, I think he did a good job with it.

Pilgrim on December 6, 2007 at 7:32 PM

I wish he didn’t have to talk about it at all. But he does. That’s my whole point: He decided he had to give the speech for political reasons. The stuff about American heritage, etc., is really just code for him saying to Christians, “Hey, look, isn’t it enough that I believe in God? Close enough, right?”

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:17 PM

You are falling into liberal thought processes that say a person is defined by just who they are not what is in thier head. Romney’s Mormonism, Huckabee’s Evangelism, Hilary’s feminims, Obama’s race ect..

If the other candidates continue on that type of ghetto-ization of the election and Romney contrasts it like this, then he wins. No one except entrenched career political advocates wants to hear about that stuff. Tell us how you want to improve America for all those types of people. We already have examples of backlashes against that type of thing against all those other candidates.

Resolute on December 6, 2007 at 7:33 PM

tommylotto,
So what does that make an agnostic, willfully ignorant?
They have faith in what they know, don’t know and what is unknowable…it’s still based on a faith right? Unprovable therefore a religion?

ColdBore76 on December 6, 2007 at 7:34 PM

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 7:20 PM

And I’ll second this. I haven’t reached “Mad as hell” stage, but I could see myself going there if the religion crap doesn’t tone the hell down in this campaign.

Bad Candy on December 6, 2007 at 7:28 PM

Problem is there are just way too many that want to make religion THE central issue, Dobson in AP’s post being a prime example.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM

And what exactly are you implying AP’s agenda is? Anything other than simply vetting the candidates with the hope of nominating the best one and getting him elected? And that very well could be Romney, despite his ridiculous religious baggage. It certainly isn’t the Huckster, because a religious bag is all he is.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:25 PM

Mostly driving traffic is AP’s agenda, which is fine. I probably wouldn’t have cared were it not for linking to Hitch, a man who should not be trusted to analyze the taste of chocolate.

There was absolutely nothing political about Romney’s speech aside from a Truther-esque “question the timing.” He did not use his pulpit to attack other candidates, he did not use his pulpit to seguey into any other issues, save the war on religious(GWOT) and anti-religious (vChristmas) extremism, which easily falls within the purview of a speech on the role of religion in politics. He kept on topic and didn’t let it devolve into a prolonged attack ad or policy discussion, which surely would have doomed him if he had done so.

Romney wasn’t giving a stump speech on why everyone should vote for Mitt Romney. He was trying to clarify and reinforce, once and for all, what it truly means to be a person of faith in America and what challenges we, as persons of faith who value religious tolerance and religious freedom in America must face.

Anyone who can’t see that is just as Rush said: blinded by their prejudices, be they categorical or political.

Sorry folks if you can’t see there are political elites on the right as well, and they are our pundit class. They, like Kos and crew, care only about winning elections and crushing the enemy Democratic party. They’ve forgotten that America is made strong by American values, which are not and should not be classified as conservative or liberal values.

BKennedy on December 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM

Rush is treating it as a cri de coeur that transcends anything so mean as polls, but does anyone believe Mitt would have given this speech now, or at all, if he was 30 points up in Iowa and New Hampshire?

No, but most great things have been done out of necessity. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing that the speech was great. I’m just saying that arguing against the motive of the speech is not the same as aguing against the speech itself. OK, he decided he needed to give the speech for political reasons. Does that detract from the content of the speech?

jaime on December 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM

Here’s my deeply held belief: The Speech was absolutely, perfectly, 100 percent OK. Outstandingly average. Spectacularly competent.

Presidential, yes. But damn, Jeff Foxworthy’s speech at the Whatever Awards was more inspiring. The cute kitten was more inspiring.

Influence? Mitt could’ve ripped that “I’m running as an American for president” straight out of one of the Huck-bashing threads on Hot Air.

Now that The Speech is over, maybe the candidates could talk about Iraq or something. Has anyone clicked over to Bongo’s ONE Campaign? Their big concern is what the US president has planned to fight malaria. WTF?

saint kansas on December 6, 2007 at 7:39 PM

If an atheist was running against him, would Romney make nothing of the fact?

Honestly, yes I think Romney would not bother with the issue. He does not need to go there to prove he is the best man for the job of PotUS (which out of the crop we have I feel he is).

Now if the Atheist was running and made his non-religion the main issue of his campaign with stated goals to enact his beliefs once in office then of course other people running for the nomination would do more than “make nothing” of it.

But last I looked, Romney was not doing anything like that. Yet the others running are making it the main issue as they feel they can use it to their advantage.

Pretty sure we can guess exactly how Huck would react to an atheist running.

Voidseeker on December 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM

There is a little hint that Mitt wasn’t just pandering, and it is this. Candidates who pander typically listen to those on his team who are in charge of pointing him in the right pandering direction. All early reports about this speech spoke about how all his advisors (pander pointers) were telling him not to give it. They thought it would fail. If they thought it would fail, then they thought it wouldn’t help his poll numbers, and they thought that it wouldn’t help his poll numbers then the idea that this was all about pandering to boost polls is shaky. It leaves two options: either Mitt thought all his advisors were wrong about it not helping his poll numbers and decided to pander come hell or high water, or he did have a greater thematic purpose in mind.

Weight of Glory on December 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM

And as a total aside, the tendency of commenter to reference other comments by who and when instead of what does not entice me to follow, and engage in, comment threads.

My peeve (or idiosyncrasy, I know), but I like to see the actual comment one is responding to. This is particularly in the fore when comment threads exceed the hundreds. When scanning the comments, I don’t pay attention to the who, per se, but the what, and if folks reference just the name attributed to comment that I found evocative instead of the key graph, I’ll scroll on through.

bains on December 6, 2007 at 7:46 PM

And what exactly are you implying AP’s agenda is?

I think it’s primarily to earn money to survive, and at best, to perhaps impress some intelligent women.

I love Allah; I just think his brain sort of runs along to amuse itself, and if he could score him some McLovin, he’d think about that instead.

saint kansas on December 6, 2007 at 7:48 PM

Anyone who can’t see that is just as Rush said: blinded by their prejudices, be they categorical or political.

I agree with much of what you wrote, but it’s this kind of statement that makes you just sound ridiculous. Get off your high horse.

Sorry folks if you can’t see there are political elites on the right as well, and they are our pundit class. They, like Kos and crew, care only about winning elections and crushing the enemy Democratic party.

Of course there are (see earlier Hugh Hewitt flaming), but you still have to deal with the valid issues they raise.

They’ve forgotten that America is made strong by American values

And those values are exactly what the argument is about – candidates pushing (or being suspected of pushing) their own religious agenda as “America’s values”. I’ve decided for myself that Huck is unforgivably guilty of this – Jury is still out on Mitt.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:50 PM

It leaves two options: either Mitt thought all his advisors were wrong about it not helping his poll numbers and decided to pander come hell or high water, or he did have a greater thematic purpose in mind.

Weight of Glory on December 6, 2007 at 7:40 PM

Or he’s not being completely honest, or his advisors felt now was the time to bring it up. I thought his earlier statement that he wanted to discuss his faith but his advisors wouldn’t let him was rather telling.

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 7:51 PM

I think Romney just got my vote, not just the speech but the whole package. And for shooting inward before shooting outward. It is tuff to win when your man is badly wounded. Every shot fired will be used in the next round.

KBird on December 6, 2007 at 7:54 PM

Atheism is a religion, whether they want to believe it or not. Agnosticism is too.

I think this is an even more individualized set of beliefs than any religion is.

Mitt had to come forward with a speech, doing so might well have been a gamble but a necessary one.
Christians were willing to eat the best qualified to give them what they’re after, one of their own.
To my mind Mitt did a great job and proved he’s up to the Presidency.

Speakup on December 6, 2007 at 7:57 PM

I thought his earlier statement that he wanted to discuss his faith but his advisors wouldn’t let him was rather telling.

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 7:51 PM

How early was that? Was it this week?

Weight of Glory on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM

I think it’s primarily to earn money to survive, and at best, to perhaps impress some intelligent women.

I don’t care if the intelligent ones are impressed. As long as the hotties are.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM

eek, eek, eek, eek… the ax grinding wheel keeps turning and turning..

TheBigOldDog on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM

saint kansas on December 6, 2007 at 7:48 PM

I’ve never known blogging to bring “McLovin’.”

terryannonline on December 6, 2007 at 8:06 PM

I propose a Malkin 3 point plan for Atheists and Agnostics: Suck It Up! Stop you whining and complaining at the drop of a hat or people are going to start thinking you’re nothing more than another overly sensitive special interest group out only to advance your own cause.

TheBigOldDog on December 6, 2007 at 8:08 PM

I don’t care if the intelligent ones are impressed. As long as the hotties are.

Allahpundit on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM

Priorities.

Bad Candy on December 6, 2007 at 8:13 PM

If atheism is a religion then in follows that everybody and everything must be religious. I have a hard time believing that my dog is religious simply because he doesn’t believe in god, and what about that tree outside?

Does my belief that dogs are not religious require “faith” on my part, thus making this very belief itself religious in nature? If so, I must have just invented a new religion! I’ll have to decide if I want to call it dogianity or doganism. How about Dogslam?

Is every belief it’s own religion? No, it’s not.

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:13 PM

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:13 P

Religion:

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

TheBigOldDog on December 6, 2007 at 8:19 PM

And those values are exactly what the argument is about – candidates pushing (or being suspected of pushing) their own religious agenda as “America’s values”. I’ve decided for myself that Huck is unforgivably guilty of this – Jury is still out on Mitt.
peski on December 6, 2007 at 7:50 PM

How is the jury out? Huck’s message is he will bring evangelicalism into governemnt and he will explain how that is good.

Romney is pretty much being challenged to also describe why we should all be okay with the idea that he will bring Mormon values to government. That is how I read AP’s criticism. He responded instead by denying that is the way American government should work and gave a thesis on how the fabric of our society goes beyond individual backgrounds and religions.

This is a 180 degrees contrast with Huckabee! It is a contrast with most of the other candidates. Huckabee only manages to get away with it because his religious background is more popular.

Resolute on December 6, 2007 at 8:26 PM

I don’t think all people that call themselves Atheist or Agnostic are religious about it though some certainly are. As for myself I don’t call my self anything but a scientist.

I hold no beliefs but do have theories. I started my turn toward atheism at 11 years old and did call my self an atheist when I was trying to prove to myself that there was no god.

However as I have pondered the topic for so many years, I think just the fact that we and the universe are here from nothing is in itself somewhat paranormal.

So there may or may not be a god ( what ever that is )

But I am pretty sure that it don’t give a rats ass what you do or what Mitt Romney believes.

TheSitRep on December 6, 2007 at 8:29 PM

The religious discussion/speeches/hand-wringing this primary season are getting a little tedious. We’re at war. We need to win not surrender. Our side should be contrasting our will to win with Hillary and Obama’s determination to surrender.

Mitt’s speech was moving and probably will help his quest. Should he have mentioned atheism, it wouldn’t have hurt, but he didn’t. Submit the question to him on the next YouTube debate.

Dan Barnett and bikermailman made very important points. Think about it, a few years ago there was no Hot Air. Now Michelle, Bryan and the prolific Allahpundit draw more than a 1,000,000 visitors a week. It’s a great place to “Vent” and I, for one, appreciate every word from Allah and the gang. And I can’t wait to hear of all the hotties who are impressed with all the various writings of Hot Air’s resident atheist. Julie B, are you out there??

Zorro on December 6, 2007 at 8:30 PM

I have a hard time believing that my dog is religious simply because he doesn’t believe in god, and what about that tree outside?

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:13 PM

How long has your dog been discussing religion with you?

.

GT on December 6, 2007 at 8:32 PM

a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe

Aside from word “purpose” it sounds like science to me, and science isn’t a religion by most peoples standards.

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience

Atheism isn’t a set of beliefs of any sort; it’s the absence of them. And if I’m wrong, then I guess my dog and I just started a new religion. (I think I’m going to have to have a little talk with that tree outside, maybe she’ll be my first disciple.)

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:34 PM

Vote for Huckabee – Minister of (and for) the World

sheesh, and folks think Romney’s religion is peculiar…

bains on December 6, 2007 at 8:35 PM

How long has your dog been discussing religion with you?

GT on December 6, 2007 at 8:32 PM

Ever since Rush’s broadcast. It’s the strangest thing, turns out I’m god. All of you dog owners out there better watch your step with me or else we’re going to start our own jihad… on your carpet! : )

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:37 PM

How early was that? Was it this week?

Weight of Glory on December 6, 2007 at 7:58 PM

A month ago. The actual quote was:

“I’m happy to answer any questions people have about my faith and do so pretty regularly,” the former Massachusetts governor said. “Is there going to be a special speech? Perhaps, at some point. I sort of like the idea myself. The political advisers tell me no, no, no – it’s not a good idea. It draws too much attention to that issue alone.”

I interpreted it as “I would, but my advsiors said no”

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 8:48 PM

Elsewhere tonight, James Dobson has gone ahead and done what all “private citizens” do after watching a big speech: He’s issued a press release.

Well, of course–all “private citizens” keep in constant touch with the news media at all times. (We also send out “private” emails to thousands of people at a time.) It’s all part of being an average joe. I just got back from my post-Romney-speech press conference, myself. Helen Thomas smells like cat pee.

ReubenJCogburn on December 6, 2007 at 8:48 PM

As a Hindu, I liked Romney’s speech. He told everyone specifically that he does not define his candidacy by his religion.

I think that he is better than America’s baptist Huckabee, who thinks he is the candidate sent by God.

hinduconservative on December 6, 2007 at 8:54 PM

They’ve forgotten that America is made strong by American values, which are not and should not be classified as conservative or liberal values.

Nor should religion be considered a prerequisite for American values.

dedalus on December 6, 2007 at 8:57 PM

Allah,

Why do you keep using the phrase “freedom of conscience”? That phrase is not in Mitt’s speech, and the title of his speech was “Faith in America”.

Come to think of it, I’m not even entirely sure what “freedom of conscience” means.

Buy Danish on December 6, 2007 at 8:59 PM

Well hinduconservative I agree with you.
It’s like what Vishnu says:
On one hand you have Mitt saying he wont rule from his religion.
On the other hand you have Huckabee saying it is divine intervention that is bringing up his numbers.

And the on another hand You have Rudy who is a catholic abortion lover

And then on even another hand Ron Paul and he is a freak.

TheSitRep on December 6, 2007 at 9:06 PM

He decided he had to give the speech for political reasons.

He had to to talk about it because all the CONSERVATIVE blogs are talking about it. Not the idiot liberals, they are afraid to go there, they try to make something of people working for people who work for Romney being illegal aliens. It’s the conservatives who keep talking about whether his being a mormon is an issue which is making it an issue. Conservatives are doing the job for the liberals. Conservative blogs are going to nitpick all the republican candidates out of the race and make it clear sailing for hillary and the fascists. I’m glad I don’t make my living on the radio or the internet because the fascists will shut both down tight in two years.

peacenprosperity on December 6, 2007 at 9:26 PM

Would Romney go after an atheist running against him,
no,I don’t think so,the atheist candidate would have
their plate full just answering to the media.

Why o why,are the Lib’s, and the media, so fired up
about Romney’s Mormonism,if Mitt’s elected President,
what in the world do they think’s gonna happen,do
Liberal’s think that on a sunday,everybody in church
are going to look towards Utah,I’ve spent two weeks
in Utah,there regular American’s,I’d rather see
America,with a Religion based President,then a
godless Lberal Democrat.Period.

canopfor on December 6, 2007 at 9:27 PM

Come to think of it,I’m not even entirely sure what
“Freedom of conscience” means.

Buy Danish on December 6,2007 at 8:59PM.

Buy Danish:I’m going to try,and take a stab at it,
If you don’t have “Freedom of conscience”,
then you’ll have “The Dream Police” kicking
your door down,by Cheap Trick!haha

canopfor on December 6, 2007 at 9:36 PM

Freedom of conscience is basically freedom of thought. For example, if the government specifies that in order to be an American you have to choose a religion from amongst the various flavors available, and of course being as tolerant as the government is they leave the choice to your good discretion… but you must choose one, (oh, and by the way, you can only have one god), then you don’t have freedom of conscience.

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 9:46 PM

I propose a Malkin 3 point plan for Atheists and Agnostics: Suck It Up! Stop you whining and complaining at the drop of a hat or people are going to start thinking you’re nothing more than another overly sensitive special interest group out only to advance your own cause.

TheBigOldDog on December 6, 2007 at 8:08 PM

Unfortunately people of faith are in no way immune to the exact same whining and complaining at the drop of a hat bias of a special interest group and usually with a touch more emotional content thrown in for kicks.

Atheism isn’t a set of beliefs of any sort; it’s the absence of them. And if I’m wrong, then I guess my dog and I just started a new religion. (I think I’m going to have to have a little talk with that tree outside, maybe she’ll be my first disciple.)

FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 8:34 PM

There are plenty of beliefs associated with Atheism, its just that belief in theism isn’t one of them.

Speakup on December 6, 2007 at 10:05 PM

canopfor on December 6, 2007 at 9:27 PM

Your stylized prose is ridiculous. Why even place the commas if you’re going to malappropriate them? It’s hardly cute and really rather ridiculous.

The Race Card on December 6, 2007 at 10:26 PM

Resolute on December 6, 2007 at 8:26 PM

I agree with you – I wasn’t clear enough. Jury is still out on whether I’ll support him. I don’t really have any problem with his religion, aside from my personal distaste for goofy beliefs in general, but more importantly it’s potential impact on his electibility.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 10:45 PM

I hold no beliefs but do have theories. I started my turn toward atheism at 11 years old and did call my self an atheist when I was trying to prove to myself that there was no god.

TheSitRep on December 6, 2007 at 8:29 PM

Interesting comments. Personally, I call myself an atheist because it’s psychologically important for my to make firm break from my previous professions of faith. The knowledge that there is no god was eating at me for a long time before I had the courage to face it and say it out loud. Sorry if that makes me a bit “in your face”, but there is a little of the “wow it’s nice to let loose on this” in me. Do I need to proselytize? No, but I do like to argue.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 10:51 PM

The political advisers tell me no, no, no – it’s not a good idea. It draws too much attention to that issue alone.”

I interpreted it as “I would, but my advsiors said no”

Hollowpoint on December 6, 2007 at 8:48 PM

I think I agree with his advisers, and the fact that he did it anyway is both impressive (take a stand on principle) and scary (this stuff matters too much to him).

Hmmm.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 10:56 PM

Helen Thomas smells like cat pee.

ReubenJCogburn on December 6, 2007 at 8:48 PM

Eeeeew.

peski on December 6, 2007 at 10:57 PM

I believe Romney took advantage of a unique campaign opportunity. Because Romney is Mormon, he was given the opportunity that is afforded to no other candidate: the opportunity to garner national media as he publicly saluted the Constitution, the First Amendment, apple pie and Chevrolet.

Do I blame Romney? No, what candidate wouldn’t want to be given such an opportunity.

Did Romney say anything that a Thompson or Huck wouldn’t say? Absolutely not. He only mentioned Mormon once throughout the entire speech.

What a politician says versus what a politician actually does has always been an important measuring stick for me. It remains inconceivable that someone with 5+ grown children would have been in favor of a woman’s right to choose as recently as within the past 5 years.

Romney says that he changed his mind as governor. Mitt, which one (or more) of your children would you have been in favor of aborting if your wife was so inclined?

Captain America on December 6, 2007 at 11:43 PM

Your stylized prose is ridiculous. Why even place the commas if you’re going to malappropriate them? It’s hardly cute and really rather ridiculous.

The Race Card on December 6, 2007 at 10:26 PM

Jerkimer: Canopfor’s comments are much more stylish than much you’ve had to say around here.

Buzz off.

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 11:54 PM

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 11:54 PM

Good for you sticking up for a fellow HA member.

ribbing someones position, candidate, or ism is one thing, but
personal attacks are boorish.

TheSitRep on December 7, 2007 at 12:23 AM

TheSitRep on December 7, 2007 at 12:23 AM

I’m thinking about a New Year’s Resolution:

If you’re aiming outside the circle, come stand by me.

RushBaby on December 7, 2007 at 12:39 AM

Freedom of conscience is basically freedom of thought…
FloatingRock on December 6, 2007 at 9:46 PM

Is that what the speech was about?

Romney says that he changed his mind as governor. Mitt, which one (or more) of your children would you have been in favor of aborting if your wife was so inclined?
Captain America on December 6, 2007 at 11:43 PM

That is a disgusting comment and I dare say it says more about your character than anything about Mitt Romney.

I have to say that the fundy “Christians” who say things like this do nothing positive in the way of “evangelizing”. Indeed, were I not already a Christian, it would have the exact opposite effect.

Buy Danish on December 7, 2007 at 9:07 AM

If an atheist was running against him, would Romney make nothing of the fact?

Isn’t it severely hypocritical for Hitch to be talking about that?

Not only has the man made a serious issue out of Mitt’s specific brand of religion, he’s made a living off of making an issue out of everyone else’s religion as well.

Esthier on December 7, 2007 at 10:01 AM

I’m wit Mitt. I don’t care if he’s Mormon. I just want a good President.

Doug on December 7, 2007 at 11:35 AM

RushBaby on December 6, 2007 at 11:54 PM

Be specific. What have I said that rubbed you sooo raw RushBaby?

I know that I’ve made some annoying, snarky, even incorrect statements. But I’m curious which ones in particular got stuck in your craw.

Maybe we dislike the same ones. That would be awesome. You rock!

The Race Card on December 7, 2007 at 7:48 PM

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