This is why I have a hard time with LDS. I’m not knocking them or poking fun either. I only do that with religions that seek to destroy other ones.. and well none seem to come to mind atm.

But I’m not voting for the pastor of my church. I’m voting for leadership of the U.S. in perhaps the most important decade in U.S. history.

.. but as Sean says I’d rather have anyone of our guys than theirs. So do I feel I’m putting down my particular Christ down by voting for someone who has a very new and different view of Him than myself. No I wouldn’t.

But I’m voting for Fred so..

bnelson44 on December 3, 2007 at 10:32 PM

I happened to catch that on NPR last night, and I thought Romney’s response was excellent.

ROMNEY: Well, but then you could ask me a question and say, “Do you believe that we should teach creationism in our schools, in our science classes and so forth?” and I’m happy to give you an answer to that. But I don’t know that going through books of the Bible and asking, “Well, do you believe this book? And do you believe these words?”, that that’s terribly productive.

inviolet on December 4, 2007 at 5:49 AM

Well said. You have done a fine job of pointing out the disingenuous tactics MB4 uses when trying to justify his positions, including not providing a linked source and using unreliable sources.

MB4 on December 3, 2007 at 11:03 PM

So you’re calling Lincoln a liar. Interesting.

Not that I’m convinced (I Googled Franklin Steiner, very revealing search so thanks for giving your source) but you *do realize* that the claim you make undermines the case you were making a few days ago, right? (atheist as secular saint becomes atheist as dupliticious liar)

I could reproduce pages on pages of Lincoln’s own words referring to God as omnipotent Person Who deals in human affairs but you know how to use Google. I tend to believe Lincoln’s own words instead of a third hand source with a clear agenda. Also, at least three or four other people on this thread besides me have said he was a theist. Any response to them?

If Lincoln really were a clear atheist I’d have no objection at all to saying so, since the truth matters. But the revisionism and apparent dishonesty is annoying. In fact, if he was a theist, you are exactly what you claim Lincoln was: an atheist being intellectually dishonest to achieve some end.

And I still haven’t figured out what your end was; that is, that point you were trying to make, since you won’t answer me. I’ll repeat the question here:

What was your point in claiming that Lincoln was an atheist, in this thread?

“It’s the flood of illegals draining the system, stupid!”

My order of preference?

Thompson
Romney
McCain
Giuliani
Biden
Clinton
Kucinich (for fun)
Obama
Huckabee
Edwards

The Huckster beats the Pony, but that’s not sayin’ much.

I really doubt it.

Would an atheist ever sound like a believer?

Of course.

Oh, that [his Thanksgiving Message] is some of Seward’s nonsense, and it pleases the fools.
- Abraham Lincoln, to Judge James M Nelson, in response to a question from Nelson: “I once asked him about his fervent Thanksgiving Message and twitted him with being an unbeliever in what was published.” Quoted from Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, p. 138

If this is what Mitt does on Thursday, IMHO, he’s sunk.

Romney is the most “presidential”. Too bad about the Mormon thing. It very well may keep him out of the White House.

inviolet on December 3, 2007 at 8:54 PM

I’m glad to be of service. I think revisionism is from from thesis work. Everyone has to come up with a ‘new’ point of view, so it’s soil constantly turned over and new ideas added by necessity for ‘scholarship’. If I needed to, I could sit down right now and write an essay “proving” Jefferson was an atheist and then turn around an write another “proving” he was not. Ah well.

Spirit of 1776 on December 3, 2007 at 8:45 PM

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Have read many of his speeches and some letters but I need to read more I’m sure. And I will. Lincoln’s a very interesting (and great) president. Google certainly testifies though that there’s lots of controversy re: these and other issues surrounding Lincoln.

Agree about his sense of humor BTW, wicked (in the good sense). Don’t know much about his spiritual ponderings but look forward to learning. Thanks.

revisionism bugs me

Me too.

does this speech at least give some social cons who might have otherwise stayed home enough reason to come out and vote for him?
His liberal policies will keep social cons home, not his polytheistic faith.

Valiant on December 3, 2007 at 1:12 PM

It is quite clear that there is a minute grouping of you all that are more interested in slandering this man’s beliefs and reputation than you are in following/participating in the debate and discourse that will allow us to select out next Commander-in-Chief.
Your cheesy cheap shots reflect more poorly on you than they have any impact at swaying this audience.

Where are the people of MA to stand up and support their former governor? Mitt’s disavowed them?

Where is the Morman church to support it’s son? Has to be silent.

There’s nobody but Mitt to sing Mitt’s song.

inviolet on December 3, 2007 at 8:32 PM

If you want to know what Lincoln believed, just read some of his own words. Lincoln was not an atheist. He did, however, struggle his whole life with the question of whether an afterlife existed (and thus the idea of salvation). Secondary sources can be spun to create a multitude of realities to fit the author’s whim.

If you are not particularly familar with Lincoln, I would merely note that the presence of death was often and early in his life so he spent much time pondering the condition of human existence and to understand man and his meaning he enjoyed most the Bible and Shakespeare – MacBeth most of all. I would also point out that he had a tremendous and very cutting sense of humor, so many of his comments are in that vein, as is clearly seen when read in context.

I don’t mean to get into either atheism or a history lesson here, but revisionism bugs me – just like the relatively recent assertions that Lincoln was homosexual. I prefer the facts to stand.

bnelson44 on December 3, 2007 at 8:25 PM

Yeah, I was wondering why MB4 brought it up too.

See

MB4 on December 3, 2007 at 1:59 PM

This isn’t the first thread on which that claim has been made by MB4 and I was wondering why he keeps bringing it up.

MB4 on December 3, 2007 at 7:53 PM

inviolet on December 3, 2007 at 8:23 PM

I’m pretty sure Lincoln was a Theist, he seems to have believed in a personal God. But didn’t belong to a church.

What does this have to do with the thread?

MB4 on December 3, 2007 at 7:53 PM

All due respect, but I regret to point out that you’re apparently so eager to make some point that you didn’t hear what I said. Didn’t say Lincoln was a Christian (nor did I say he wasn’t–I don’t know either way–and ‘scuse me if your quotes above aren’t that convincing when I put them next to what I’ve seen of Lincoln’s own words.

I said he was not an atheist while President. You’re arguing above that all his references to a personal divine being {One Who takes interest in human affairs, BTW) were simply lies to achieve another end. Why would he do that in situations where the references would be superfluous politically (as in the quote above–he’d WON) or not strictly “necessary” to his point?

Honest Abe, a teller of many lies, and superfluous ones at that? Will surely apologize if I’m wrong but it seems quiiittte the stretch to me.

Anyone else have input on this disagreement?

And to get to the root question: what was the point of your bringing Lincoln up again in this thread, in the first place? To claim that “we had an atheist President,” or something else? Just curious.

We’re speaking of the Presidency on this thread. At no moment of his presidency (cf. “first inaugural address”) was Lincoln an atheist. (I don’t know that he ever was, but guess I have to take your word–nevertheless, he was a believer by the time he took office.)

inviolet on December 3, 2007 at 6:48 PM

Are you trying to get me in trouble by “forcing” me do do more quoting again?

The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
- Abraham Lincoln

Mr. Lincoln was entirely deficient in what the phrenologists call reverence. I was once in Mr. Lincoln’s company when a sectarian controversy arose. He himself looked very grave, and made no observation until all the others had finished what they had to say. Then with a twinkle of the eye he remarked that he preferred the Episcopalians to every other sect, because they are equally indifferent to a man’s religion and his politics.”
- Maunsell B Field

In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ.
- James M Nelson

While it may be fairly said that Mr. Lincoln entertained many Christian sentiments, it cannot be said that he was himself a Christian in faith or practice. He was no disciple of Jesus of Nazareth. He did not believe in his divinity and was not a member of his Church.
“He was at first a writing Infidel of the school of Paine and Volney, and afterwards a talking Infidel of the school of Parker and Channing.
“If the Churches had grown cold — if the Christians had taken a stand aloof — that instant the Union would have perished. Mr. Lincoln regulated his religious manifestations accordingly. He declared frequently that he would do anything to save the Union, and among the many things he
did was the partial concealment of his individual religious opinions. Is this a blot upon his fame? Or shall we all agree that it was a conscientious and patriotic sacrifice?”
- The New York World (1875)

Is it a plausible system of belief?

Only if you enjoy spiked koolaide.

Amerindians are Jewish. check
People live on the sun. check
People who dress like Quakers live on the moon. check
The Christian religion is an abomination to God. check
Jesus is Satan’s brother. check
Jesus had three wives. check

Now what’s not plausible about that? Nothing to see here people, move along.

Vanceone on December 3, 2007 at 6:21 PM

That’s not the issue. The issue is that you are seen as competition to Christianity (and in a way you are) and the devout don’t want to provide free publicity to the competition. It is really that simple. If you didn’t have such a long history and were not presently out in force evangelizing Christians it wouldn’t be such a big deal.

That’s Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Mr. Frum. That is the name of the church. While I agree with the sentiments expressed in the article, there’s no good reason for a person like David Frum to make such a mistake.

spiff on December 3, 2007 at 1:18 PM

I could make a sign reading “The Church of Jesus Christ of Mid-day Nappers” and slap it up on a barn by the interstate, but that doesn’t make it a Christian church with verifiable historic roots that go back through geography and time to the biblical middle east.

Of course, it could be worse. He could be an atheist.

Professor Blather on December 3, 2007 at 1:54 PM

I think the devout would have less of an issue with an atheist. At least he isn’t competition.

Of course, it could be worse. He could be an atheist.

Professor Blather on December 3, 2007 at 1:54 PM

Yup, like Lincoln.

MB4 on December 3, 2007 at 1:59 PM

Lincoln’s first inaugural address:

If the Almighty Ruler of Nations, with His eternal truth and justice, be on your side of the North, or on yours of the South, that truth and that justice will surely prevail by the judgment of this great tribunal of the American people.

We’re speaking of the Presidency on this thread. At no moment of his presidency (cf. “first inaugural address”) was Lincoln an atheist. (I don’t know that he ever was, but guess I have to take your word–nevertheless, he was a believer by the time he took office.)