Exodus 23:12
“Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.” (ESV)

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, ‘Hear the cases between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the alien who is with him. (ESV)

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus says the LORD: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. (ESV)

Leviticus 19:34
‘The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. (NASB)

Numbers 9:14
‘ If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.’ (NASB)

Deuteronomy 10:18
“He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. (NASB)

Deuteronomy 10:19
” So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.” (NASB)

Deuteronomy 24:14-15 “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

15″You shall give him his wages on his day before the sun sets, for he is poor and sets his heart on it; so that he will not cry against you to the LORD and it become sin in you.”

There is NOTHING even VAGUELY like these commands in the Qur’an. The Judaic scriptures and the Islamic scriptures are not compatible in the least tiniest little bit. YHWH is not Allah.

I had a bunch more to say….I spent three hours on it…even went into fulfilled prophecy…but I lost that post when I checked to see if a link was functioning in “preview” mode (who knew?)

SO! Forget the huge long make – several – major – points post…I just couldn’t let that last post stand, just because no one like me has come along and read it…everyone else had already moved on, and haven’t come back I guess.

But just in case there is even ONE more lurker out there, like me, who’s catching up…I didn’t want that to stand unchallenged any longer.

Blogging the Qur’an: Verse 9:29 Part
1 (Part 1) The verse that single-handedly dispels
the myth of Islamic tolerance. …

(Commendments)

Dang. I hate typos, it’s a pet peeve.

Merovign on December 4, 2007 at 2:33 AM

I disagree with your position that the religions have changed “several hundred” years ago. It’s a very new phenomenom, that’s why I used the example of the American Indians. This is exactly what keeps happening, we will talk about Islam and reference The Crusades, but will not accept a reference to Catholicism from 1890. And again, these tenents (Commendments) are similar in Catholicism, Judaism, Islam and others. They are Divine Law as defined above. It brings up the question I asked earlier (to which there was no reply) “If you can pick and choose between which verse you would like to adhere to, and which you would not… How can you be considered to be a true follower?”

That being said, today there is no one in the West imposing an oppressive medieval tax system on conquered provinces (unless you buy into IMF and World Bank conspiracies). Whereas the jizya is mandatory from the dhimmi in Islam under religious law. An unfair discriminatory medieval tax system is built right into sharia. That religious requirement is the same today as it was in the 900’s. No thank you.

Another justification for the jizya that I have heard is that the infidel was excused from military service. So, the jizya was only fair to support national security that the infidel did not contribute to with personal service. Of course, that too is nonsense. Infidels were barred from military service and could not carry a sword or ride a horse. That was a humiliating restriction, not a desired exemption. Also, being forced to pay for a conquering and occupying army is hardly contributing to national security.

The difference between Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions over the last several hundred years is that one of them has changed.

RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 12:04 PM

Well said.

aengus on December 3, 2007 at 6:34 PM

Deuteronomy
Deu·ter·on·o·my
Pronunciation: \ˌdü-tə-ˈrä-nə-mē also ˌdyü-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Deutronomie, from Late Latin Deuteronomium, from Greek Deuteronomion, from deuter- + nomos law — more at nimble
: the fifth book of canonical Jewish and Christian Scripture containing narrative and Mosaic laws — see bible table

Its theological basis is bigoted.

So is Judaism and Catholicism.

Yes but Islam contains a divine command to treat outsiders as inferiors who must feel themselves to be subjugated. Its theological basis is bigoted.

Its theological basis is bigoted.

So is Judaism and Catholicism.

Of course, it isn’t surprising that the apologists always grasp for that particularly dishonest justification – Professor Blather on December 3, 2007 at 2:19 PM

Do you want to know what real dishonesty is? Look at any number of your posts. You have a very narrow view indeed to be able to in the same sentence, label me as a way to marginalize the content of my opinion, and present yourself as holding both the intellectual and moral high ground.

Also, since you seem to be of the opinion that I am an apologist now, could you provide an example of my apologizing for the rest of us plebeians?

It’s certainly NOT a Muslim idiosyncracy to treat outsiders differently.

Yes but Islam contains a divine command to treat outsiders as inferiors who must feel themselves to be subjugated. Its theological basis is bigoted.

And again, why is it “O.K.” to reference happenings from the Crusades (or in this case even before) but when Christian or Jewish ancient History is brought up, it’s dismissed out of hand?

The Crusades are Christian and Jewish history.

KMC1 is back with his moral equivalence rhetoric.

Shy Guy on December 3, 2007 at 11:42 AM

Indeed. I have to chuckle when I read his posts.

It never ceases to amuse me how often weak intellects fall back on “but … but … but they did it, too!” as a rhetorical device.

Whatever acts Jews or Christians or pagans or Tom Cruise may have committed in the name of their religion is entirely irrelevant to the atrocities committed by Islamists today.

Of course, it isn’t surprising that the apologists always grasp for that particularly dishonest justification. What else are they going to do? Address the actual issues?

Hardly.

But … but … but … they started it!

It worked in third grade and it works today. But for adults, its a bit embarrassing. More relativism always is.

Is a characteristic of any society. It’s not specific to Judaism. Unless dictates are given specifically against such practices they will persist in a certain section of the society.

I agree with you here. And this is really my main point.

The Torah prohibits mistreatment of Gentiles, though for instance the rule of Jubilee only applies to Jews. But this is as silly as saying that because I only give Christmas gifts to my family members that I’m a familyist for not lavishing gifts on a stranger.

If you can pick and choose between which verse you would like to adhere to, and which you would not… How can you be considered to be a true follower? It’s not so simple as your comparison, especially when you begin to examine the social construct to critically examine the reasons for the differing treatment.

You evidently have not READ THE TORAH so YOU DO NOT KNOW. As a Christian, I have read the Torah – we call it the Pentateuch. If you also read the Prophets you will find that they admonish the Jews to not oppress the stranger.

You are correct in your assumption that I have not read the Torah. However, I am a Roman Catholic and am somewhat familiar with the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) although I would never claim to be a religious scholar by any means.

If you can understand this, then it will be clear why I say that the church has never been a tyrant.

I have a real issue with your statement here. If you really believe this, can you please explain to me Unam Sanctam? I understand what you are saying about the body of The Church and all that, but in reality, it’s not really how things are practically.

To not roll too far offtopic (since that is the KMC way)

Can I just ask you, why would you insult me when I am as on topic as those who pose a question to me? The only change of topic I have presented initially, is my challenge to the linear discussion. Is dissension and critical thought not allowed, or welcomed? Are we supposed to only nod our collective head in agreement?

“On this last point, there actually are commandments which provide as a foundation to Judaism, rules for dealing with Gentiles. These rules are not equal, and they do not provide for equal treatment. From what I have been reading, Jewish society has a very closed community, from legal proceedings, to business dealings, to “ratting” on eachother, marriage and so on.”

Is a characteristic of any society. It’s not specific to Judaism. Unless dictates are given specifically against such practices they will persist in a certain section of the society.

The Torah prohibits mistreatment of Gentiles, though for instance the rule of Jubilee only applies to Jews. But this is as silly as saying that because I only give Christmas gifts to my family members that I’m a familyist for not lavishing gifts on a stranger.

It may be laudible to give to the stranger but it is not especially damning that I don’t.

You evidently have not READ THE TORAH so YOU DO NOT KNOW. As a Christian, I have read the Torah – we call it the Pentateuch. If you also read the Prophets you will find that they admonish the Jews to not oppress the stranger.

What Islam does is an inversion: While the Jew may reserve special gifts for other Jews he does not according to his religion do evil to the stranger or Gentile. In Islam, not only does the Muslim reserve gifts for his own, he specifies punishment and humiliation for the non-Muslim.

You are so busy with your own personal anti-semitic narrative that you fail to notice the importance of this particular scripture. I guess this is an object-lesson.

As for yourself, I think your error is your Humanist/Universalist metaphysics. You err when you think of the hierarchy, the pope, or the buildings as the Church. This was never the teaching of Christianity – if it has been taught it is anathema. There is and has always been dispute about who represents the church – but according to orthodox theology, a hierarchy is not and can never be the actual Church itself.

If you can understand this, then it will be clear why I say that the church has never been a tyrant.

But we’re doing the comparison you asked for.

To not roll too far offtopic (since that is the KMC way) I have a question. Why did the Christians in the East not more robustly resist Islam? Was it a structural issue, or was it an issue of Islam not yet having lost its strength to corruption? What is your opinion on the matter, Robert?

forest on December 3, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Actually, you did – twice.
So, we’ve established that you are both an extremist and a liar. Anything else you would like to add?
You should actually try reading once in a while – I know it’s more fun to come here and join in the backslapping and hand-holding (and name calling when something is said you don’t agree with)… but you won’t learn as much.

Dude…it sounds like you are getting close justifying Hitler’s beliefs and actions. What is “still going on to this day” is anti-semite morons blaming everything on the Jews – including the Holocaust apparently. forest on December 3, 2007 at 11:40 AM

I didn’t say you agreed with the Holocaust (but i’m beginning to tink you might). I said you blamed it on the Jews, which is what you did. – forest on December 3, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Uh. Actually, what I did was point out a factual statement. Go to the Library and get a little card – they let you take books home to read and everything….

And Christianity does not oppose me doing so. Were I a priest or clergyman I would be forbidden to do so – but I’m not – RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 12:04 PM

I would like to point out, that if I were to write a book or two that would then be the framework to rule by, I guess I would make it so I and my cronies, didn’t have to actually chance getting killed or bloody too. Wouldn’t you?

This Islam – is a form of tyranny given the more familiar shape of a religion. Christians may be tyrants – just as they may be magnates – but Christianity itself is not a tyranny. You’re fooled by the shape of things, KMC1 – the fact that this whole post focuses on one verse that makes this truth very clear – and you miss it.

Actually, just to be clear, I don’t miss “the point” of Robert’s Q-blog. I just don’t agree with him that we should learn about Islam without a comparison to Judaism and Christianity (and other mainstream religions). Although in fairness I have not read the book he recommended to me last week, but am planning to do so ASAP, and I believe there may be some information in there pertinent to this point. I feel all the mainstream religions have their flaws. To examine Islam without context is missing the bigger picture and is exploiting the current political climate today. It’s really just common sense to oppose Human Rights abuses, but to do so only within Islam or Islamic society, is wrong. I also don’t agree with your point about The Church not being a tyranny. They may not be a true tyranny today… but History is replete with examples – and not ancient history either. The Native Americans are a fine example that is only a hundred or so years old. And you can see by these threads on HA, jihadwatch and others, that we could easily find ourselves on the same path again today if we allow people to act without a knowledge of History and context.

Judaism is the same – there have been Jews who have been xenophobes and racists – but that’s merely a human characteristic.

On this last point, there actually are commandments which provide as a foundation to Judaism, rules for dealing with Gentiles. These rules are not equal, and they do not provide for equal treatment. From what I have been reading, Jewish society has a very closed community, from legal proceedings, to business dealings, to “ratting” on eachother, marriage and so on.

Simpleton.
How you can actually, somehow, in your little peasack you call a brain, equate a factual historical statement as “proof” of my agreeing with The Holocaust? That’s just plain disgusting.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 12:31 PM

I didn’t say you agreed with the Holocaust (but i’m beginning to tink you might). I said you blamed it on the Jews, which is what you did. According to you, Hitler used the Jews supposed refusal to treat others equally “to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany”. i.e. – they brought it on themselves.

And BTW, your blather doesn’t constitute “factual historical statements”. Unless you think The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is historically accurate.

Let’s get back on topic here.

Shy Guy on December 3, 2007 at 11:42 AM

True. Now please link us to a comparison chart so we can get a better picture of your grand claim.

I linked you with Dueteronomy last week. Start there. Maybe you can please try to read Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 21:10, Leviticus 25:42, Deuteronomy 23:19. There are others, but these are provided to show that each religion has as part of it’s basic tenents, a differentiation between those who believe and those who do not.

Remember, this is the guy who was insulted at being called an anti-Semite here over a week ago. Shoe fits.

Uh. Yeah. That was YOU who called me that. And here you are again, doing the same. Even though I also mentioned Christianity in BOTH threads.

Seriously, the Torah advocates that the Land of Israel is to be a land for the Jews.

Riiiight. So. If I understand you correctly, and you can correct me if I am wrong of course… In some made up book, written by a man or men, to create a form of government and secure control of a populace… a piece of land was decreed to be “theirs”. Do you not see how absolutely ridiculous this is? Do you not see how against God this is, and how like MEN it is? Puhlease.
And don’t forget that “The Land of Israel” was actually conquered land, taken from the tribes who lived there before them….What gives them the “right” to be there? Religious decree? That’s ridiculous. By that reckoning, there’s going to be a lot of people moving around the world throughout the future.
AND, you also reinforce my opinion that the Hebrew people are just as radical in their beliefs as those whom we are told to fear – and we should NOT be siding with either party in their ongoing perpetual religious war.

forest on December 3, 2007 at 11:40 AM

Simpleton.
How you can actually, somehow, in your little peasack you call a brain, equate a factual historical statement as “proof” of my agreeing with The Holocaust? That’s just plain disgusting.

Christianity stands against militarism, but it also stands against tyranny. Islam is a form of tyranny. I find it humorous how both objections are launched against the Church: One that she is too violent and warlike (Crusaders!) and the other that she is too pacifistic (Martyrs!)

If you keep looking to the left of her and looking to the right of her you’re obviously going to miss her.

This Islam – is a form of tyranny given the more familiar shape of a religion. Christians may be tyrants – just as they may be magnates – but Christianity itself is not a tyranny. You’re fooled by the shape of things, KMC1 – the fact that this whole post focuses on one verse that makes this truth very clear – and you miss it.

Judaism is the same – there have been Jews who have been xenophobes and racists – but that’s merely a human characteristic. Add or subtract the Judaism and you’ll still have a mix of xenophobes and non-xenophobes. It’s just a convenient excuse to blame Judaism for something plainly human.

In reverse we see here the core of what Islam was (and still is teaching) IS tyranny. That’s what this post is about. Central to Islamic teaching is tyranny. Judaism says, “Do not oppress the alien or stranger.” Islam says, “Oppress the alien or stranger.” Aside from both having guys with caps, temples, priesthoods and followers, what does Mecca have to do with Jerusalem?

NOTHING.

Bunch of glad handlers, get a room already.
The Jewish do NOT treat Gentiles equally.

True. Now please link us to a comparison chart so we can get a better picture of your grand claim.

A fact that Hitler used to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany. It’s been one of the chief complaints about Jews for centuries.

Remember, this is the guy who was insulted at being called an anti-Semite here over a week ago. Shoe fits.

The foundation of Israeli society is racist and xenophobic as is the immigration and citizenship systems.

I tried renting a 2-room in the Vatican the other week. Bummer.

Seriously, the Torah advocates that the Land of Israel is to be a land for the Jews.

Not Canada. Not Grenada. Not China. Not Timbuktu.

Isn’t it interesting that these same Jews can live all over the world with all sorts of people of different religions, colors, nationalities and persuasions, and yet get along with everybody just fine?

What kind of grand racists are these whimpy Jews you keep badgering about? Can’t they be consistantly bigoted, racist and xenophobic, if as you claim that’s what we really are?

You think you know something. Your ignorance is showing – again.

And again, why is it “O.K.” to reference happenings from the Crusades (or in this case even before) but when Christian or Jewish ancient History is brought up, it’s dismissed out of hand?

The magic word is “history”, as in the past. But you’ve been told this before.

The Jewish do NOT treat Gentiles equally. A fact that Hitler used to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany. It’s been one of the chief complaints about Jews for centuries. It’s still going on to this day. – KMC1

Dude…it sounds like you are getting close justifying Hitler’s beliefs and actions. What is “still going on to this day” is anti-semite morons blaming everything on the Jews – including the Holocaust apparently.

The foundation of Israeli society is racist and xenophobic as is the immigration and citizenship systems. KMC1

Take it to HuffPo. They love stuff like this over there.

I hope all of these posts will be available as a single work. It would be a great reference for study. Would be a great DVD presentation as well.