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Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 9, “Repentance,” verse 29

posted at 8:00 am on December 2, 2007 by Robert Spencer
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Verse 29 of chapter 9 of the Qur’an is the one place where Muslims are directed explicitly to make war against and subjugate Jews and Christians – the “People of the Book,” who once subjugated enter the dhimma, the protection of the Muslims, and become dhimmis, protected (or guilty) people. As such, the way this verse is understood by Muslim interpreters is of cardinal importance for Jews, Christians, and – not least because in the Islamic world one’s religion tends to be considered as part of one’s ethnic identity, not as a matter of personal conviction, so that even Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens would be considered Christians — non-Muslims in general.

According to As-Sawi, Ibn Juzayy, and many others, “this ayat was revealed when the Messenger of Allah was commanded to fight the Byzantines. When it was sent down, the Messenger of Allah prepared for the expedition to Tabuk.” Ibn Kathir agrees: “Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination.” This was a raid Muhammad attempted against the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) garrison at Tabuk in northern Arabia in 631, but the Byzantine force moved away before Muhammad got there, and did not engage the Muslims in battle. Still, it was his first attempt to take on the great Christian empire that the Muslims would chip away at for centuries and ultimately destroy.

Ibn Juzayy says that this verse is “a command to fight the People of the Book” and, in a reference to v. 30, “denying their belief in Allah because of the words of the Jews, ‘Uzayr [Ezra] is the son of Allah’ and the words of the Christians, ‘The Messiah is the son of Allah.’” Muslims must also fight them “because they consider as lawful carrion, blood, pork, etc.” and because “they do not enter Islam.” He says that “scholars agree about accepting jizya [a religious-based poll tax] from the Jews and Christians,” and adds that “the Magians/Zoroasterians have been added to them going by the words of the Prophet, ‘Treat them as People of the Book,’” although “there is disagreement about accepting it from idolaters and Sabians.” He specifies that “it is not collected from women, children or the insane,” and that it signifies “submission and obedience.”

While Islamic law does stipulate that the jizya is not to be collected from women and children, reality in many cases has been different. According to the pioneering historian of dhimmitude, Bat Ye’or:

The poll tax was extorted by torture. The tax inspectors demanded gifts for themselves; widows and orphans were pillaged and despoiled. In theory, women, paupers, the sick, and the infirm were exempt from the poll tax; nevertheless, Armenian, Syriac, and Jewish sources provide abundant proof that the jizya was exacted from children, widows, orphans, and even the dead. A considerable number of extant documents, preserved over the centuries, testify to the persistence and endurance of these measures. In Aleppo in 1683, French Consul Chevalier Laurent d’Arvieux noted that ten-year-old Christian children paid the jizya. Here again, one finds the disparity and contradiction between the ideal in the theory and the reality of the facts. (The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam, pp. 78-9).

The Tafsir al-Jalalayn says that this when v. 29 specifies that Muslims must fight against those who “follow not the Religion of Truth,” it means those who do not follow Islam, “which is firm and abrogates other deens [religions].” Ibn Kathir gives a hint as to why this is so when he explains that the People of the Book were in bad faith when they rejected Muhammad, and that they are not true believers even in their own religions:

Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad, they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah’s Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad, because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad’s advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets.

As-Sawi specifies that the payment of the jizya signifies that the non-Muslims are “humble and obedient to the judgements of Islam.” As-Suyuti notes that the jizya is “not taken from someone in a state of hardship,” although that was a stipulation at times honored in the breach. For example, a contemporary account of the Muslims’ conquest of Nikiou, an Egyptian town, in the 640’s, says that “it is impossible to describe the lamentable position of the inhabitants of this town, who came to the point of offering their children in exchange for the enormous sums that they had to pay each month…”

This was a manifestation of the “state of abasement” specified by this verse and spelled out by the Bedouin commander al-Mughira bin Sa’d when he met the Persian Rustam. Said al-Mughira: “I call you to Islam or else you must pay the jizya while you are in a state of abasement.”

Rustam replied, “I know what jizya means, but what does ‘a state of abasement’ mean?”

Al-Mughira explained: “You pay it while you are standing and I am sitting and the whip hanging is over your head.”

Similarly, Ibn Kathir says that the dhimmis must be “disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated.” The seventh-century jurist Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab stated: “I prefer that the people of the dhimma become tired by paying the jizya since He says, ‘until they pay the jizya with their own hands in a state of complete abasement.’” As-Suyuti elaborates that this verse “is used as a proof by those who say that it is taken in a humiliating way, and so the taker sits and the dhimmi stands with his head bowed and his back bent. The jizya is placed in the balance and the taker seizes his beard and hits his chin.” He adds, however, that “this is rejected according to an-Nawawi who said, ‘This manner is invalid.’” Zamakhshari, however, agreed that the jizya should be collected “with belittlement and humiliation.”

Next week: How the Jews and Christians must be made to feel their humiliation every day.

(Here you can find links to all the earlier “Blogging the Qur’an” segments. Here is a good Arabic/English Qur’an, here are two popular Muslim translations, those of Abdullah Yusuf Ali and Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall, along with a third by M. H. Shakir. Here is another popular translation, that of Muhammad Asad. And here is an omnibus of ten Qur’an translations.)


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And we think the IRS is screwing us over. Jews, Christians, and later even Hindus had it much worse.

mram on December 2, 2007 at 11:53 AM

Who says Muslims never get slap-happy!

Shy Guy on December 2, 2007 at 11:54 AM

“…the jizya was exacted from … even the dead.”

Here’s yet another thing the Dhimmicrats have in common with islam.

Tony737 on December 2, 2007 at 12:10 PM

Qur’an 9:29 deserves its own blog entry.

Thank you Robert.

awake on December 2, 2007 at 12:12 PM

“… the great Christian empire that the Muslims would chip away at for centuries and ultimately destroy.”

And history repeats itself again and again. This is what they’re tryin’ to do to us right now but too many of us are blind and can’t see (I hate this expression but it applies here) the “big picture”. The West is so spoiled by our freedom that we only live for today, for ourselves, we don’t think about our great grandkids. The evidence is there for all to see, the histories are written, but too many of us refuse to look at the truth and it could be our downfall if we don’t wake up.

Tony737 on December 2, 2007 at 12:19 PM

Let the people of the book pay!
MAKE the people of the book pay!

Sounds like what one hears at marxist rallies with “people of the book” replaced by “rich.”

Annar on December 2, 2007 at 12:33 PM

posted at 8:00 am on December 2, 2007 by Robert Spencer

Robert,

Are there other parts of the Koran that I can look forward to that abrogate text like Chapter 9 Verse 29 or are there popular traditions that disavow parts of the Koran that are similar (apologies in advance if this question has been answered in previous posts in the series)?

meandchi on December 2, 2007 at 12:36 PM

Tony737 on December 2, 2007 at 12:19 PM

The truth is frightening and disturbing, it tells us our preconceived notions are mistaken, it warns of changes and hard work ahead, it forces us to look inwards upon ourselves and accept responsibility for our actions and our inactions, and does not allow us to blame others for what we find, it requires that we find and exercise inner strengths we did not know we possessed.

Knowing that this is the true nature of truth it is no surprise that so many chose to look away, finding instead delusions, fantasies and convenient lies to embrace rather than wake up and face the truth.

doriangrey on December 2, 2007 at 12:38 PM

Meandchi, Robert Spencer discussed abrogation and Chapter 9 in this JihadWatch article a year ago: The Islamic doctrine of abrogation.

Shy Guy on December 2, 2007 at 1:05 PM

Mr. Spencer’s series should be required reading for discussion in every high school in the nation. Thanks again for the scholarship, Robert!

T J Green on December 2, 2007 at 1:18 PM

Thanks Robert. You make reading the torturous Koran possible.

Mojave Mark on December 2, 2007 at 1:26 PM

Mr. Spencer,

It occurs to me that the “rules” governing the treatment of the Dhimmis within the Dar al Islam and the overarching importance of the Ummah in the Islamic mind would point to the Dhimmis being slaves to the Ummah, rather than slaves belonging to any one individual. Is this accurate?

JM

P. James Moriarty on December 2, 2007 at 1:35 PM

JM:

It occurs to me that the “rules” governing the treatment of the Dhimmis within the Dar al Islam and the overarching importance of the Ummah in the Islamic mind would point to the Dhimmis being slaves to the Ummah, rather than slaves belonging to any one individual. Is this accurate?

Yes, insofar as they are subject to the Ummah as a whole, but the dhimmis were not precisely slaves. Their lives and property were subject to the whim of the Muslims, but they could and did in many places live essentially independent lives within the bounds of the rules of dhimmitude, not lives of slaves as such.

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 1:48 PM

meandchi:

Are there other parts of the Koran that I can look forward to that abrogate text like Chapter 9 Verse 29 or are there popular traditions that disavow parts of the Koran that are similar (apologies in advance if this question has been answered in previous posts in the series)?

I know of no Islamic school that teaches that 9:29 is abrogated by any other passage.

As for abrogation in general, you may find the piece linked above useful.

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 1:50 PM

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 1:48 PM

I think it would be a matter of definition. If a person can be deprived of life, property, family, and basic freedoms without objective due process of law, that person is a slave of that system. Some would say that would be no different than what the US citizenry experiences, exept that there is due process, where all are equal under the law, rather than thier standing before the legal authority being held at a greatly discounted level. Given the inequality of the Dhimmis under Sharia law and the other instruments of institutionalized descrimination built into the Islamic system/society, I, personally, would have to clasify Dhimmis as slaves to the Ummah, false sense of temporary independance notwithstanding.

P. James Moriarty on December 2, 2007 at 2:09 PM

PJM:

Fair enough. All I mean to say is that they were not chattel. They did not have the status of property.

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 2:13 PM

Some apologists argue that it is fair for Dhimmis to pay the jizya because they do not have to pay zakat. I have two questions about this:

1. Are the two equal?
2. Are these funds (jizya and zakat) ever equitably distributed among the Dhimmis and Muslims, or are Dhimmis limited or excluded from receiving charity benefits?

forest on December 2, 2007 at 2:13 PM

Shy Guy on December 2, 2007 at 1:05 PM

and Robert.

Thx! Found an answer to my question in the link provided above:

“sura 9 is generally understood as being the Qur’an’s last word on jihad”

Bummer.

meandchi on December 2, 2007 at 2:16 PM

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 2:13 PM

Legal status perhaps in that they can’t be transfered (I really hessitate to say “bought or sold” as individually held slaves are still extant), I think defacto slave status to the Ummah is a given. Thank you for the clarification.

JM

P. James Moriarty on December 2, 2007 at 2:22 PM

Thx! Found an answer to my question in the link provided above:

“sura 9 is generally understood as being the Qur’an’s last word on jihad”

Bummer.

meandchi on December 2, 2007 at 2:16 PM

Now that you’ve woken up and smelled the coffee, welcome to our world!

Shy Guy on December 2, 2007 at 2:29 PM

forest:

Some apologists argue that it is fair for Dhimmis to pay the jizya because they do not have to pay zakat. I have two questions about this:

1. Are the two equal?
2. Are these funds (jizya and zakat) ever equitably distributed among the Dhimmis and Muslims, or are Dhimmis limited or excluded from receiving charity benefits?

1. I have often encountered, in person and on radio shows, Muslims who claim that the jizya, the special tax required of non-Muslim dhimmis under Islamic law, was actually less than zakat, the Muslim obligation of charitable giving. This is patently absurd on the face of it, of course, since innumerable respected historians (including A.S. Tritton, Maxime Rodinson, and Bat Ye’or) have noted that it was money from the dhimmis, not from Muslims, that financed the early Islamic empires; indeed, Muslims paid nothing at all into the state treasury in the days when there were large populations (i.e., in Egypt and Syria) of conquered dhimmi Christians. Rodinson even points out in his biography of Muhammad that at certain times conversions to Islam were forbidden, as they were destroying the tax base! If the jizya had really been less than zakat, human nature being what it is, we would have seen large-scale conversions of Muslims to Christianity in the great Islamic empires — but of course we don’t, because who would want to exchange the position of the dominator for that of the dominated?

For non-Muslims in Muslim societies, there was not just jizya, but kharaj, the land tax. Tritton in The Caliphs and Their Non-Muslim Subjects equates the two: “Hafs, another governor of Egypt, announced that all dhimmis who abandoned their religion would be free from kharaj, which is jizya” (pp. 35-6). It is important to remember the two names because while the jizya was generally set at a fixed amount by the jurists (although this was highly adjustable), the kharaj was another matter. In the Hedaya, an Islamic legal manual, in a discussion about the purchase of land by a dhimmi, it declares: “it is lawful to require twice as much of a Zimmee [dhimmi] as of a Mussulman [Muslim], whence it is that, if such an one were to come before the collector with merchandise, twice as much would be exacted of him as of a Mussulman” (Hedaya I.vi).

Then there is this, from A. Ben Shemesh, Taxation in Islam Volume II, Qudama b. Ja’far’s Kitab Al-Kharaj:

The voluntary character of the zakat contribution as a religious duty is emphasized by Qudama in the beginning of Chapter Thirteen, where he states that Muslims are trusted with the declaration of what is due from them, in contradistinction to other taxes which are compulsory and pursuable. The Saudi law by charging Muslims with this religious tax is following the old precepts who lay down that the rate of the tax is fixed in accordance with the persons from whom it is collected, i.e., from a Merchant of a foreign country 10 per cent, from a merchant of an allied country 5 per cent, and from a Muslim 2.5 per cent.

And this:

There is a desire to equate Zakat with Jiziyah to emphasize the fairness of the Islamic fiscal system. The Muslims pay Zakat and the non-Muslims Jiziyah. But the analogy is fallacious. The rate of Zakat tax is as low as 2.5 per cent and that on the apparent property only. All kinds of concessions are given in Zakat with regard to nisah or taxable minimum. In its collection no force is applied because force vitiates its character. On the other hand, the rate of Jiziyah is very high for the non-Muslims- 48, 24, and 12 silver tankahs for the rich, the middling and the poor, whatever the currency and whichever the country. Besides, what is central to Jiziyah is the humiliation of infidel always, particularly at the time of collection. What is central in Zakat is that it is voluntary; at least it cannot be collected by force. In India Zakat ceased to be a religious tax imposed only on the Muslims. Here Zakat was levied in the shape of customs duties on merchandise and grazing fee on all milk-producing animals or those which went to pasture, and was realized both from Muslims and non-Muslims. According to the Islamic law, ‘import duties for Muslims were 5 per cent and for non-Muslims 10 per cent of the commodity’. For, Abu Hanifa, whose Sunni school of law prevailed in India, would tax the merchandise of the Zimmis as imposts at double the Zakat fixed for Muslims.

That’s from K.S. Lal, Theory and Practice of the Muslim State in India, pp. 139-140.

Note that both the above quotes feature Islamic authorities figuring the jizya at double the rate of zakat, as per The Hedaya.

2. Zakat, according to traditional Islamic law, can only be distributed to Muslims.

Robert Spencer on December 2, 2007 at 2:48 PM

Thanks Robert! I’ll keep all of this in mind the next time I hear some dhimmwit banging on about supposed charity and equality in Islamic society.

forest on December 2, 2007 at 4:54 PM

The muslims salivate at the idea of feeding off huge swaths of westerners in a parasitic way. Of course they already get huge amounts in “aid” but there is no humiliation of the dhimmie which Islam demands. Sucking welfare as an immigrant is honorable but again there is no humiliation so it doesn’t count.

BL@KBIRD on December 2, 2007 at 5:15 PM

To what extent are Islamic states enforcing payment of the jizya today? I’m under the impression it has been largely abandoned, and I’d like to think it is because of modern and international pressures.

Free Constitution on December 2, 2007 at 5:20 PM

Another good entry for study.

A question for you, Robt. Spencer:

Just like the Christian & Jewish texts have entries that were specific for their time; i.e. Joshua & Caleb’s direction to invade & conquer the promised land; we, in the West, do not take those as perpetual, literal commands that apply today.

My question is presented in a similar context: According to As-Sawi, Ibn Juzayy, and many others, “this ayat (sura 29 v 9) was revealed when the Messenger of Allah was commanded to fight the Byzantines. When it was sent down, the Messenger of Allah prepared for the expedition to Tabuk.’

Is Sura 9 v 29 viewed by (sensible?) modern muslims as a revelation specific for its time or as a perpetual, literal command that applies through the ages?

Also, is this statement of avarice – “that the jizya was exacted from children, widows, orphans, and even the dead” – the foundation of our modern IRS? Just wondering (& kidding).

locomotivebreath1901 on December 2, 2007 at 7:22 PM

locobreath,
If I had to guess, “moderate” Muslims may see the Jizya the way many Christians view the miracles of Christ. A great deal, but not possible for today. Although the Taliban school seems to believe that the command is for a specific time and season…and that season is until the end of the world.

ConstantSorrow on December 2, 2007 at 10:14 PM

locomotive breath:

Is Sura 9 v 29 viewed by (sensible?) modern muslims as a revelation specific for its time or as a perpetual, literal command that applies through the ages?

Many Muslims in the West say that 9:29 was specific for its time, and has no relevance for the modern world. Unfortunately, this is not a mainstream view. Muhammad’s first biographer, Ibn Ishaq, explains the contexts of various verses of the Qur’an by saying that Muhammad received revelations about warfare in three stages: first, tolerance; then, defensive warfare; and finally, offensive warfare in order to convert the unbelievers to Islam or make them pay the jizya. Ibn Kathir, Ibn Juzayy, As-Suyuti and others also emphasize that Surat At-Tawba abrogates every peace treaty in the Qur’an. There will be more on this next week.

In the modern age, this idea of stages of development in the Qur’an’s teaching on jihad, culminating in offensive warfare to establish the hegemony of Islamic law, has been affirmed by the jihad theorists Sayyid Qutb and Syed Abul Ala Maududi, as well as by the Pakistani Brigadier S. K. Malik (author of “The Qur’anic Concept of War,” a book that carries the endorsement of General Zia himself), Saudi Chief Justice Sheikh Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Humaid (in his “Jihad in the Qur’an and Sunnah”), and others.

Robert Spencer on December 3, 2007 at 6:12 AM

Thank you again, Mr. Spencer.

Asher on December 3, 2007 at 8:43 AM

Bah.
Bunch of glad handlers, get a room already.
The Jewish do NOT treat Gentiles equally.
A fact that Hitler used to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany. It’s been one of the chief complaints about Jews for centuries. It’s still going on to this day. The foundation of Israeli society is racist and xenophobic as is the immigration and citizenship systems.

Christians have forever treated non-believers to either The Book or the sword, it’s a very new creation in the Western countries who are, to be secular.

It’s certainly NOT a Muslim idiosyncracy to treat outsiders differently.
And again, why is it “O.K.” to reference happenings from the Crusades (or in this case even before) but when Christian or Jewish ancient History is brought up, it’s dismissed out of hand? Ridiculous.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 10:19 AM

What is perverse about Muslim religious leaders is how they all repeat the nonsense of how happy the People of the Book are when they exist under Muslim rule. This is a twisted fable that results from their belief that these people are meant by the Creator to be their slaves. The dominance by force of all peoples is neatly wrapped up in one simple idea that can be understood by the criminal mind as providence.

I hope all of these posts will be available as a single work. It would be a great reference for study. Would be a great DVD presentation as well.

Hening on December 3, 2007 at 10:48 AM

The Jewish do NOT treat Gentiles equally. A fact that Hitler used to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany. It’s been one of the chief complaints about Jews for centuries. It’s still going on to this day. – KMC1

Dude…it sounds like you are getting close justifying Hitler’s beliefs and actions. What is “still going on to this day” is anti-semite morons blaming everything on the Jews – including the Holocaust apparently.

The foundation of Israeli society is racist and xenophobic as is the immigration and citizenship systems. KMC1

Take it to HuffPo. They love stuff like this over there.

forest on December 3, 2007 at 11:40 AM

KMC1 is back with his moral equivalence rhetoric.

Bunch of glad handlers, get a room already.
The Jewish do NOT treat Gentiles equally.

True. Now please link us to a comparison chart so we can get a better picture of your grand claim.

A fact that Hitler used to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany. It’s been one of the chief complaints about Jews for centuries.

Remember, this is the guy who was insulted at being called an anti-Semite here over a week ago. Shoe fits.

The foundation of Israeli society is racist and xenophobic as is the immigration and citizenship systems.

I tried renting a 2-room in the Vatican the other week. Bummer.

Seriously, the Torah advocates that the Land of Israel is to be a land for the Jews.

Not Canada. Not Grenada. Not China. Not Timbuktu.

Isn’t it interesting that these same Jews can live all over the world with all sorts of people of different religions, colors, nationalities and persuasions, and yet get along with everybody just fine?

What kind of grand racists are these whimpy Jews you keep badgering about? Can’t they be consistantly bigoted, racist and xenophobic, if as you claim that’s what we really are?

You think you know something. Your ignorance is showing – again.

And again, why is it “O.K.” to reference happenings from the Crusades (or in this case even before) but when Christian or Jewish ancient History is brought up, it’s dismissed out of hand?

The magic word is “history”, as in the past. But you’ve been told this before.

Shy Guy on December 3, 2007 at 11:42 AM

The Crusades were done partly in response to Islamic aggression. They were a mixed bag overall, but I see no problem with fighting back against and killing those who want to impose tyranny. And Christianity does not oppose me doing so. Were I a priest or clergyman I would be forbidden to do so – but I’m not.

Christianity stands against militarism, but it also stands against tyranny. Islam is a form of tyranny. I find it humorous how both objections are launched against the Church: One that she is too violent and warlike (Crusaders!) and the other that she is too pacifistic (Martyrs!)

If you keep looking to the left of her and looking to the right of her you’re obviously going to miss her.

This Islam – is a form of tyranny given the more familiar shape of a religion. Christians may be tyrants – just as they may be magnates – but Christianity itself is not a tyranny. You’re fooled by the shape of things, KMC1 – the fact that this whole post focuses on one verse that makes this truth very clear – and you miss it.

Judaism is the same – there have been Jews who have been xenophobes and racists – but that’s merely a human characteristic. Add or subtract the Judaism and you’ll still have a mix of xenophobes and non-xenophobes. It’s just a convenient excuse to blame Judaism for something plainly human.

In reverse we see here the core of what Islam was (and still is teaching) IS tyranny. That’s what this post is about. Central to Islamic teaching is tyranny. Judaism says, “Do not oppress the alien or stranger.” Islam says, “Oppress the alien or stranger.” Aside from both having guys with caps, temples, priesthoods and followers, what does Mecca have to do with Jerusalem?

NOTHING.

RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 12:04 PM

forest on December 3, 2007 at 11:40 AM

Simpleton.
How you can actually, somehow, in your little peasack you call a brain, equate a factual historical statement as “proof” of my agreeing with The Holocaust? That’s just plain disgusting.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 12:31 PM

Shy Guy on December 3, 2007 at 11:42 AM

True. Now please link us to a comparison chart so we can get a better picture of your grand claim.

I linked you with Dueteronomy last week. Start there. Maybe you can please try to read Deuteronomy 17:12, Deuteronomy 21:10, Leviticus 25:42, Deuteronomy 23:19. There are others, but these are provided to show that each religion has as part of it’s basic tenents, a differentiation between those who believe and those who do not.

Remember, this is the guy who was insulted at being called an anti-Semite here over a week ago. Shoe fits.

Uh. Yeah. That was YOU who called me that. And here you are again, doing the same. Even though I also mentioned Christianity in BOTH threads.

Seriously, the Torah advocates that the Land of Israel is to be a land for the Jews.

Riiiight. So. If I understand you correctly, and you can correct me if I am wrong of course… In some made up book, written by a man or men, to create a form of government and secure control of a populace… a piece of land was decreed to be “theirs”. Do you not see how absolutely ridiculous this is? Do you not see how against God this is, and how like MEN it is? Puhlease.
And don’t forget that “The Land of Israel” was actually conquered land, taken from the tribes who lived there before them….What gives them the “right” to be there? Religious decree? That’s ridiculous. By that reckoning, there’s going to be a lot of people moving around the world throughout the future.
AND, you also reinforce my opinion that the Hebrew people are just as radical in their beliefs as those whom we are told to fear – and we should NOT be siding with either party in their ongoing perpetual religious war.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 12:46 PM

Simpleton.
How you can actually, somehow, in your little peasack you call a brain, equate a factual historical statement as “proof” of my agreeing with The Holocaust? That’s just plain disgusting.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 12:31 PM

I didn’t say you agreed with the Holocaust (but i’m beginning to tink you might). I said you blamed it on the Jews, which is what you did. According to you, Hitler used the Jews supposed refusal to treat others equally “to rally widespread support in attacking the Jews in Germany”. i.e. – they brought it on themselves.

And BTW, your blather doesn’t constitute “factual historical statements”. Unless you think The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is historically accurate.

Let’s get back on topic here.

forest on December 3, 2007 at 1:07 PM

And Christianity does not oppose me doing so. Were I a priest or clergyman I would be forbidden to do so – but I’m not – RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 12:04 PM

I would like to point out, that if I were to write a book or two that would then be the framework to rule by, I guess I would make it so I and my cronies, didn’t have to actually chance getting killed or bloody too. Wouldn’t you?

This Islam – is a form of tyranny given the more familiar shape of a religion. Christians may be tyrants – just as they may be magnates – but Christianity itself is not a tyranny. You’re fooled by the shape of things, KMC1 – the fact that this whole post focuses on one verse that makes this truth very clear – and you miss it.

Actually, just to be clear, I don’t miss “the point” of Robert’s Q-blog. I just don’t agree with him that we should learn about Islam without a comparison to Judaism and Christianity (and other mainstream religions). Although in fairness I have not read the book he recommended to me last week, but am planning to do so ASAP, and I believe there may be some information in there pertinent to this point. I feel all the mainstream religions have their flaws. To examine Islam without context is missing the bigger picture and is exploiting the current political climate today. It’s really just common sense to oppose Human Rights abuses, but to do so only within Islam or Islamic society, is wrong. I also don’t agree with your point about The Church not being a tyranny. They may not be a true tyranny today… but History is replete with examples – and not ancient history either. The Native Americans are a fine example that is only a hundred or so years old. And you can see by these threads on HA, jihadwatch and others, that we could easily find ourselves on the same path again today if we allow people to act without a knowledge of History and context.

Judaism is the same – there have been Jews who have been xenophobes and racists – but that’s merely a human characteristic.

On this last point, there actually are commandments which provide as a foundation to Judaism, rules for dealing with Gentiles. These rules are not equal, and they do not provide for equal treatment. From what I have been reading, Jewish society has a very closed community, from legal proceedings, to business dealings, to “ratting” on eachother, marriage and so on.

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 1:14 PM

forest on December 3, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Actually, you did – twice.
So, we’ve established that you are both an extremist and a liar. Anything else you would like to add?
You should actually try reading once in a while – I know it’s more fun to come here and join in the backslapping and hand-holding (and name calling when something is said you don’t agree with)… but you won’t learn as much.

Dude…it sounds like you are getting close justifying Hitler’s beliefs and actions. What is “still going on to this day” is anti-semite morons blaming everything on the Jews – including the Holocaust apparently. forest on December 3, 2007 at 11:40 AM

I didn’t say you agreed with the Holocaust (but i’m beginning to tink you might). I said you blamed it on the Jews, which is what you did. – forest on December 3, 2007 at 1:07 PM

Uh. Actually, what I did was point out a factual statement. Go to the Library and get a little card – they let you take books home to read and everything….

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 1:20 PM

You focus on the Jews so carefully you don’t recognize that

“On this last point, there actually are commandments which provide as a foundation to Judaism, rules for dealing with Gentiles. These rules are not equal, and they do not provide for equal treatment. From what I have been reading, Jewish society has a very closed community, from legal proceedings, to business dealings, to “ratting” on eachother, marriage and so on.”

Is a characteristic of any society. It’s not specific to Judaism. Unless dictates are given specifically against such practices they will persist in a certain section of the society.

The Torah prohibits mistreatment of Gentiles, though for instance the rule of Jubilee only applies to Jews. But this is as silly as saying that because I only give Christmas gifts to my family members that I’m a familyist for not lavishing gifts on a stranger.

It may be laudible to give to the stranger but it is not especially damning that I don’t.

You evidently have not READ THE TORAH so YOU DO NOT KNOW. As a Christian, I have read the Torah – we call it the Pentateuch. If you also read the Prophets you will find that they admonish the Jews to not oppress the stranger.

What Islam does is an inversion: While the Jew may reserve special gifts for other Jews he does not according to his religion do evil to the stranger or Gentile. In Islam, not only does the Muslim reserve gifts for his own, he specifies punishment and humiliation for the non-Muslim.

You are so busy with your own personal anti-semitic narrative that you fail to notice the importance of this particular scripture. I guess this is an object-lesson.

As for yourself, I think your error is your Humanist/Universalist metaphysics. You err when you think of the hierarchy, the pope, or the buildings as the Church. This was never the teaching of Christianity – if it has been taught it is anathema. There is and has always been dispute about who represents the church – but according to orthodox theology, a hierarchy is not and can never be the actual Church itself.

If you can understand this, then it will be clear why I say that the church has never been a tyrant.

But we’re doing the comparison you asked for.

To not roll too far offtopic (since that is the KMC way) I have a question. Why did the Christians in the East not more robustly resist Islam? Was it a structural issue, or was it an issue of Islam not yet having lost its strength to corruption? What is your opinion on the matter, Robert?

RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 1:28 PM

Is a characteristic of any society. It’s not specific to Judaism. Unless dictates are given specifically against such practices they will persist in a certain section of the society.

I agree with you here. And this is really my main point.

The Torah prohibits mistreatment of Gentiles, though for instance the rule of Jubilee only applies to Jews. But this is as silly as saying that because I only give Christmas gifts to my family members that I’m a familyist for not lavishing gifts on a stranger.

If you can pick and choose between which verse you would like to adhere to, and which you would not… How can you be considered to be a true follower? It’s not so simple as your comparison, especially when you begin to examine the social construct to critically examine the reasons for the differing treatment.

You evidently have not READ THE TORAH so YOU DO NOT KNOW. As a Christian, I have read the Torah – we call it the Pentateuch. If you also read the Prophets you will find that they admonish the Jews to not oppress the stranger.

You are correct in your assumption that I have not read the Torah. However, I am a Roman Catholic and am somewhat familiar with the Bible (both Old and New Testaments) although I would never claim to be a religious scholar by any means.

If you can understand this, then it will be clear why I say that the church has never been a tyrant.

I have a real issue with your statement here. If you really believe this, can you please explain to me Unam Sanctam? I understand what you are saying about the body of The Church and all that, but in reality, it’s not really how things are practically.

To not roll too far offtopic (since that is the KMC way)

Can I just ask you, why would you insult me when I am as on topic as those who pose a question to me? The only change of topic I have presented initially, is my challenge to the linear discussion. Is dissension and critical thought not allowed, or welcomed? Are we supposed to only nod our collective head in agreement?

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 1:56 PM

KMC1 is back with his moral equivalence rhetoric.

Shy Guy on December 3, 2007 at 11:42 AM

Indeed. I have to chuckle when I read his posts.

It never ceases to amuse me how often weak intellects fall back on “but … but … but they did it, too!” as a rhetorical device.

Whatever acts Jews or Christians or pagans or Tom Cruise may have committed in the name of their religion is entirely irrelevant to the atrocities committed by Islamists today.

Of course, it isn’t surprising that the apologists always grasp for that particularly dishonest justification. What else are they going to do? Address the actual issues?

Hardly.

But … but … but … they started it!

It worked in third grade and it works today. But for adults, its a bit embarrassing. More relativism always is.

Professor Blather on December 3, 2007 at 2:19 PM

It’s certainly NOT a Muslim idiosyncracy to treat outsiders differently.

Yes but Islam contains a divine command to treat outsiders as inferiors who must feel themselves to be subjugated. Its theological basis is bigoted.

And again, why is it “O.K.” to reference happenings from the Crusades (or in this case even before) but when Christian or Jewish ancient History is brought up, it’s dismissed out of hand?

The Crusades are Christian and Jewish history.

aengus on December 3, 2007 at 3:09 PM

Its theological basis is bigoted.

So is Judaism and Catholicism.

Of course, it isn’t surprising that the apologists always grasp for that particularly dishonest justification – Professor Blather on December 3, 2007 at 2:19 PM

Do you want to know what real dishonesty is? Look at any number of your posts. You have a very narrow view indeed to be able to in the same sentence, label me as a way to marginalize the content of my opinion, and present yourself as holding both the intellectual and moral high ground.

Also, since you seem to be of the opinion that I am an apologist now, could you provide an example of my apologizing for the rest of us plebeians?

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 3:57 PM

Its theological basis is bigoted.

So is Judaism and Catholicism.

Yes but Islam contains a divine command to treat outsiders as inferiors who must feel themselves to be subjugated. Its theological basis is bigoted.

aengus on December 3, 2007 at 6:34 PM

aengus on December 3, 2007 at 6:34 PM

Deuteronomy
Deu·ter·on·o·my
Pronunciation: \ˌdü-tə-ˈrä-nə-mē also ˌdyü-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English Deutronomie, from Late Latin Deuteronomium, from Greek Deuteronomion, from deuter- + nomos law — more at nimble
: the fifth book of canonical Jewish and Christian Scripture containing narrative and Mosaic laws — see bible table

KMC1 on December 3, 2007 at 8:04 PM

RiverCocytus on December 3, 2007 at 12:04 PM

Well said.

4shoes on December 3, 2007 at 11:47 PM

KMC – Are you saying that religiously-motivated violent behavior, particularly targeted toward noncombatants, is equivalently pursued by Muslims, Christian, and Jews, TODAY?

The difference between Judeo-Christian and Islamic traditions over the last several hundred years is that one of them has changed.

Merovign on December 4, 2007 at 2:33 AM

The jizya and kharaj were certainly discriminatory and unfair, but that was hardly unusual in medieval tax systems, where conquered provinces often shouldered grossly unfair tax burdens. ((They do not describe our tax system as Byzantine for nothing.)) There were many occasions where taxation under Islam was less burdensome than under the Eastern Roman Empire. Take Sicily for example. The Islamic conquest for the Southeast portion of the island starting in 827 was assisted by the fact that the inhabitants of that portion of the island were tired of the heavy tax burden imposed by the Byzantines.

That being said, today there is no one in the West imposing an oppressive medieval tax system on conquered provinces (unless you buy into IMF and World Bank conspiracies). Whereas the jizya is mandatory from the dhimmi in Islam under religious law. An unfair discriminatory medieval tax system is built right into sharia. That religious requirement is the same today as it was in the 900’s. No thank you.

Another justification for the jizya that I have heard is that the infidel was excused from military service. So, the jizya was only fair to support national security that the infidel did not contribute to with personal service. Of course, that too is nonsense. Infidels were barred from military service and could not carry a sword or ride a horse. That was a humiliating restriction, not a desired exemption. Also, being forced to pay for a conquering and occupying army is hardly contributing to national security.

tommylotto on December 4, 2007 at 7:34 AM

Merovign on December 4, 2007 at 2:33 AM

I disagree with your position that the religions have changed “several hundred” years ago. It’s a very new phenomenom, that’s why I used the example of the American Indians. This is exactly what keeps happening, we will talk about Islam and reference The Crusades, but will not accept a reference to Catholicism from 1890. And again, these tenents (Commendments) are similar in Catholicism, Judaism, Islam and others. They are Divine Law as defined above. It brings up the question I asked earlier (to which there was no reply) “If you can pick and choose between which verse you would like to adhere to, and which you would not… How can you be considered to be a true follower?”

KMC1 on December 4, 2007 at 9:59 AM

“chapter 9 of the Qur’an is the one place where Muslims are directed explicitly to make war against and subjugate Jews and Christians.” Damn

dingbat on December 4, 2007 at 11:10 AM

(Commendments)

Dang. I hate typos, it’s a pet peeve.

KMC1 on December 4, 2007 at 2:28 PM

Interesting to note that there have not been any challnges to the scriptures I highlighted above. I think it’s pretty obvious that there are not many open minds on here, who are willing to honestly challenge their views on their belief systems. It really does scare me to think how easily we could allow ourselves to be drawn into yet another period of religious wars.

KMC1 on December 4, 2007 at 2:34 PM

Ok…here’s a challenge. Look up “alien” in an online searchable bible–here’s a link. I’ll copy and paste a few for those who don’t want to follow a link:

Exodus 23:12
“Six days you shall do your work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; that your ox and your donkey may have rest, and the son of your servant woman, and the alien, may be refreshed.” (ESV)

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, ‘Hear the cases between your brothers, and judge righteously between a man and his brother or the alien who is with him. (ESV)

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus says the LORD: Do justice and righteousness, and deliver from the hand of the oppressor him who has been robbed. And do no wrong or violence to the resident alien, the fatherless, and the widow, nor shed innocent blood in this place. (ESV)

Leviticus 19:34
‘The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the LORD your God. (NASB)

Numbers 9:14
‘ If an alien sojourns among you and observes the Passover to the LORD, according to the statute of the Passover and according to its ordinance, so he shall do; you shall have one statute, both for the alien and for the native of the land.’ (NASB)

Deuteronomy 10:18
“He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. (NASB)

Deuteronomy 10:19
” So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.” (NASB)

Deuteronomy 24:14-15 “You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

15″You shall give him his wages on his day before the sun sets, for he is poor and sets his heart on it; so that he will not cry against you to the LORD and it become sin in you.”

There is NOTHING even VAGUELY like these commands in the Qur’an. The Judaic scriptures and the Islamic scriptures are not compatible in the least tiniest little bit. YHWH is not Allah.

I had a bunch more to say….I spent three hours on it…even went into fulfilled prophecy…but I lost that post when I checked to see if a link was functioning in “preview” mode (who knew?)

SO! Forget the huge long make – several – major – points post…I just couldn’t let that last post stand, just because no one like me has come along and read it…everyone else had already moved on, and haven’t come back I guess.

But just in case there is even ONE more lurker out there, like me, who’s catching up…I didn’t want that to stand unchallenged any longer.

Auralae on April 14, 2008 at 5:08 AM

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