I’m an atheist…I won’t try to convert you, so don’t try to convert me.

As a Christian who enjoys a little friendly discussion/debate, what’s the harm? Are you afraid you’ll be convinced that Jesus’ claims were true?

But they’ll have to put up with the idea that others may consider that selfish.

Splunge on December 2, 2007 at 6:48 PM

Actually, they won’t, since they’ll be dead. The only people who will have to put up with it are all the people complaining about how selfish it was. The person will not have to put up with anything anymore since they’re dead.

Taking that last sentiment, I determined that if a person should live their life how they want, not according to others’ expectations of how they should live, then they should also be able to end their life, if they want, and shouldn’t have to continue living, just because others expect them to do so.

Sure. I agree with that, they shouldn’t have to and they don’t have to. But they’ll have to put up with the idea that others may consider that selfish.

In my book, “selfish” doesn’t automatically mean “wrong.” Heck, it’s selfish to keep a roof over your head while anyone, anywhere in the world, doesn’t have one. That doesn’t make it wrong, not even a little.

I think it’s right to live your life by your own priorities and your own moral judgment (which you are of course free to delegate to your faith). Others’ expectations can be worth listening to, but are not a final determinant. My own moral judgment would tell me that it’s wrong to shun friendship and trust just because those don’t work out sometimes. To live is to never stop trying, never stop taking risks. At least that’s how I see it, and if I were to lobby you, it would not be about your faith, but about that issue.

MB4 on December 1, 2007 at 11:13 PM

They already tried that “exporting secularism before democracy” thing. They called it Communism.

It was Godless and presupposed, at least by Marx, that eventually the crushing government control it gave to political leaders would fall away into a perfect utopia.

Faith and reason are not on opposing ends of a single spectrum MB4.

It’s not wholly clear to me whether you were arguing from your personal beliefs, or from your imagined vision of what you think you would believe if you were an atheist. If the former, it doesn’t make sense because there’s a separate religious reason to shun suicide (”Thanks for the gift of life Lord, but no thanks, I’m throwing it back”), and if it’s the latter…well, I’ll just say that I think your vision is very distant from what you’d actually find yourself believing if you were nonreligious.

Splunge on December 2, 2007 at 5:45 PM

It is the latter. I thought I explained that somewhere, but maybe I didn’t.

And I have found myself imagining the idea that there is no god and atheists are correct. That thought leaves me with the idea that there is nothing wrong with suicide, were I to choose to do it, because there is no punishment and I was not here for a reason anyway and I shouldn’t stay here simply so as not to hurt the feelings of others.

This also gets to the point of who defines “selfish” and “moral”. You take away God and purpose and everything is relative really. Anyone can be right about anything. What you I think is selfish, others could think is their right.

I have not had someone in my life commit suicide, but I have had a friend attempt it. It hurt me that she tried, because prior to that she had told me that my influence on her life was such a positive thing and I took comfort in that and felt great that I could bring that positive influence to her life. After I found out that she attempted suicide, I felt horrible, because I felt I must have let her down somehow.

But I never felt she was selfish for doing what she did. I felt she must have been hurting so much and even my influence was not enough to take away that hurt.

I have had people come into my life, become very close friends, use me to help bring comfort to their lives and then just leave my life when I needed them to bring some comfort to my life. That hurt like hell. Granted, it made me realize that I cannot depend on anyone ever again, to the point that I don’t trust anyone and I don’t allow myself to build friendships with people anymore, because I don’t trust one word they tell me, based on the many lies I have been told by people in the past. I initially felt those people were acting selfish, but I have had people tell me that I need to just get over it, because not all friendships and relationships are supposed to last and people cannot stay in relationships/friendships just for the sake of one person. A person has to live their life how they want to, not according to how others want them to live.

Taking that last sentiment, I determined that if a person should live their life how they want, not according to others’ expectations of how they should live, then they should also be able to end their life, if they want, and shouldn’t have to continue living, just because others expect them to do so.

However, I hear the “suicide is selfish” thing all the time and I don’t understand why. Why is it selfish? Just because other people would feel bad after the person is dead?

Yeah, basically. Certainly you have the “right” to opt out of life, in the sense that government has and should have no power to interfere (yeah, I know that’s not quite how it really is). It is inarguable, though, that your action will have an effect on other people, and it is ignoring that effect, and putting your own exit desires ahead of the pain of your family and friends, that is regarded as “selfish.” Isn’t that basically what “selfish” means?

I wonder if you’ve ever had anyone you cared about exit from your life in this way. I think you’d understand better if you had.

Well, if those other people cared so much, why didn’t they care enough to realize that the person was so depressed and on the brink of suicide?

It would be nice if they did, but it’s really a separate question; it doesn’t really alter the matter of the moral evaluation of the action of suicide. Besides, it’s not something people always volunteer.

It’s not wholly clear to me whether you were arguing from your personal beliefs, or from your imagined vision of what you think you would believe if you were an atheist. If the former, it doesn’t make sense because there’s a separate religious reason to shun suicide (“Thanks for the gift of life Lord, but no thanks, I’m throwing it back”), and if it’s the latter…well, I’ll just say that I think your vision is very distant from what you’d actually find yourself believing if you were nonreligious.

Entelechy on December 2, 2007 at 3:01 PM

Thanks for the heads up, Entelechy, good thread to scan, got a million things going on, not much to add today.

Seems to me we have explored atheism/theism to the point where the camps are all colonized along the continuum, and some polite adults such as you and Michael in MI have finally surfaced to advance the debate to a tone of curious exploration rather than reflexive combat.

MiM, good on you for never giving up on your values and principles. Hard as it might be to believe, I used to be way more passionate in my youth. I hope that some of my tempered self is attributed to good/bad experiences, rejoicing/despairing, learning from both, and some acquired wisdom to know better.

the more I have struggled with my faith and lost some hope in my life and lost confidence in many things I used to be so certain about.

Know that deep down, most people lead quiet and often desperate lives. My grandma used to say “life is a jar full of caca, with a rim of honey at the top”, and she was a wise owl. Only those who don’t care, or don’t know that anything happens at all, are, or pretend to be, always happy. One good glance around the world is enough to make one despair.

Yet, most of us do get up in the morning and tackle challenges anew, for us and for the world around us, in small and big ways. And rays of hope, and of progress, spring often from the most expected/unexpected sources.

I highly recommend that you read Transition, by Will Durant. Anything by Will and Ariel Durant is a great read, but for the phase you’re going through this one will be balsamic. And he writes so angelically beautiful.

I won’t judge you or others, whatever your beliefs, so long as you’re decent, as our buddy RushBaby would say, and you are, proven so often, in so many ways. You also appear to be a great person, professional, colleague, coach and writer/communicator. May you find hope in your life again because you have so much to offer.

It is great that you comment here on HA more often, lately. For the most part the knuckleheads here are good ones, even if we disagree on this, that or the other. It’s an interesting, challenging, thought-provoking, informative, and often entertaining place to hang out in. With the very best regards, respectfully,

I find them to be very thought-provoking and worth my time, every time.

If ideas opposing your own beliefs bother you so much, maybe a little self-analysis is in order.

No matter one’s belief, there is no reason to go around calling anyone, believer or non-believer, “stupid, illogical, unreasonable and having character flaws” simply on the basis of their belief or non-belief.

Michael in MI on December 2, 2007 at 1:28 PM

This should be the first comment, or part of every theist/atheist thread, going forward.

Entelechy on December 2, 2007 at 1:53 PM

Absolutely agreed.

I just checked. Hot Air has more atheist-based threads than any other major blog. Congratulations.

wccawa on December 2, 2007 at 12:58 AM

Accidie doesn’t (happen).

profitsbeard on December 2, 2007 at 12:55 AM

Ennui? – we’re still free to choose, for now. Let’s fight to remain so, believers and non-believers.

I meant to mention that I was speaking here from an atheist standpoint (here by chance, by luck, etc). I’m still a Christian and believe I was put here for a reason by God.

MiM, and Saint Kansas, you two, and a few others here, set the standard on how belief/non-belief should be viewed, argued, if at all.

Entelechy on December 2, 2007 at 2:02 PM

Thanks, Entelechy. Ironically enough, I have found myself being able to discuss these divisive issues with less emotion and more rationally the more I have struggled with my faith and lost some hope in my life and lost confidence in many things I used to be so certain about. I used to let my passion get the best of me and debate too emotionally. But now I find myself trying better to understand the other sides to issues. I have not given up on my values and principles, however I have learned, gradually, to not be so adamant of pushing them on others and saying they are wrong and I am right.

Sometimes, I still get carried away, but lately I have been trying my best to not let myself have my passion and emotion get the best of me. Granted, I am still a work in progress, so I may fail in the future from time to time, but I’m glad I have done a decent job here recently.

But you are stupid.

There is absolutely no way around that. None. Stupid, Illogical, unreasonable. There is NO WAY any thinking person could possibly believe in such a monster like God, without some character flaw, or base fear that doesn’t allow them not to believe.

And the reason (in my opinion) atheists bother theists so much is that we hold up that mirror that you can’t stand to see your own reflection in. There really is no other explanation.

This election is the perfect proof. Here we have Mitt Romney, a Mormon who has a very good chance of winning the primaries and maybe even the general election, and devout Christians can’t bring themselves to criticize his “faith”. Here is a man who claims to believe that he will be a god himself someday and rule over his own planet. Here is a man who is clearly not a Christian, but calls himself one, and all you Christians say it doesn’t matter.

What do you people believe? How can you expect us atheists to respect you when you don’t even respect your own faith enough to define what it means?

I suspect now I’ll be accused of Mormon bashing. Yes, I am. I think they are nuts and nobody who believes such crap has any right to be president.

But everything is relative, and some ideas are dumber than others. Are Christians so thin skinned that they will let an atheist like me make them so mad they support a but like Romney because they don’t want to admit he’s as nutty as I think he is?

Apparently so.

Why not just vote for a Muslim and get it over with.

Jaynie59 on December 2, 2007 at 6:26 AM

Hey Jaynie59, with such slight, but significant changes, you make a lot of valid points, well worth to consider. Respectfully,

Abortion is barbaric, and it is a tragedy that our society even considers it as a ’solution’ (or ‘right) at all. You have the right to have sex or not, to use birth control or not. It is generally accepted that you do not have the right to kill people.

ThackerAgency on December 2, 2007 at 10:58 AM

You know what is interesting is that the debate over abortion is about as divisive as the debate of theism vs atheism. Just as some atheists just cannot comprehend theists, I have come across pro-abortion people who just cannot comprehend how someone can be anti-abortion. The “right” to promiscuous sex with no consequences of a woman to choose what to do with her body has been so ingrained in some people, that they cannot even fathom believing otherwise.

I think the debate of theism vs atheism and pro-abortion vs anti-abortion are the two most divisive debates currently going on in this country.

MiM, and Saint Kansas, you two, and a few others here, set the standard on how belief/non-belief should be viewed, argued, if at all.

Yes, I’m conservative, godless, and hated by what seems to be a large majority. : )

the goddess anna on December 2, 2007 at 9:42 AM

Unfortunately, it is the loudest bad apples in any group which taint the stereotype of the group.

From all the “discussions” of religion on this site, it is obvious that many theists have come across annoying atheists which have framed their view of atheists as a whole and many atheists have come across annoying theists which have framed their view of theists as a whole. It’s unfortunate.

Thank you for this post, saint kansas. Through the last few years of meeting people such as yourself, it has helped me to break down my stereotypes of self-described atheists.

I think we all hold our prejudices and stereotypes in life and sometimes it takes meeting people to help break these. I know I broke down a lot of the stereotypes and ignorant prejudices that I held when I went to college and met so many different people from so many different backgrounds. Aside from the degree I earned, that was what I felt was the best thing I did in college. I can’t tell you how much I grew as a person from just sitting around with friends during late night BS sessions and study sessions. Priceless.

No matter one’s belief, there is no reason to go around calling anyone, believer or non-believer, “stupid, illogical, unreasonable and having character flaws” simply on the basis of their belief or non-belief.

Michael in MI on December 2, 2007 at 1:28 PM

This should be the first comment, or part of every theist/atheist thread, going forward.

As far as atheists “bothering” me as in “threatening” me emotionally or something, I would have to say honestly “no.” I know what I believe and that someone else believes differently doesn’t change that I believe my beliefs are true.

inviolet on December 2, 2007 at 8:25 AM

This is how I believe as well. I always tell people this when they are getting upset, because someone called them a name or is spreading a rumor about them (mostly teens who complain about this kind of thing going on in High School)… if something is not true, there’s really no reason to get upset about it, right? Usually people name-call for two reasons (1) to make the person upset and (2) to try to ruin that person’s reputation in the eyes of others.

Ironically, (2) sometimes happens only if (1) succeeds. So I usually tell people that if you brush off people’s attacks on you and show that they don’t affect you, it shows you are confident in yourself and that shows other people that the attack most likely is not true. When someone gets angry, however, it usually shows they are defensive about the accusation and makes people wonder if there is some truth to the accusation.

Now, I use the opposite approach if someone is attacking someone I know. I feel it is right to come to the defense of my friends or family or coworkers if they are unfairly attacked. But if someone does it to me, I just blow it off, since I know it’s not true, so I’m not going to waste time worrying about it.

Agnosticism in the face of lack of certainty seems more reasonable to me.

inviolet on December 2, 2007 at 8:13 AM

I agree. I can understand agnosticism much more than I can understand atheism or even strong faith. Personally, I have faith, but it’s not a strong faith. I’m not strong enough in my faith to go out and convince others to believe as well.

Refusing to take part and do good things in this life because you may not have an afterlife is a pretty narrow minded and selfish view on things.

Faith1 on December 2, 2007 at 7:20 AM

Great post. I share a lot of the views you expressed. However, I hear the “suicide is selfish” thing all the time and I don’t understand why. Why is it selfish? Just because other people would feel bad after the person is dead? Well, if those other people cared so much, why didn’t they care enough to realize that the person was so depressed and on the brink of suicide?

When it gets down to it, no one has any duty to keep on living. We are all just here by chance, by luck. If someone wants to off themself and not participate is this chance life, why shouldn’t they be allowed to do that? Why is that “selfish”? There are no rules to life. No one asked to be here. We are all just here because our parents had sex and decided to go through with the pregnancy and birth. But we had no say in whether or not we wanted to be here. So why shouldn’t we have a say in whether or not we stay? Why is it selfish to decide we don’t want to stick around?

I just don’t get the “suicide is selfish” thing.