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TPM: Mitt told a second audience he probably wouldn’t have Muslims in his cabinet

posted at 8:05 pm on November 27, 2007 by Allahpundit
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They have two named witnesses claiming the question was put to him at a private luncheon in Vegas in August. I’m sure that it was, for reasons I’ll explain in a moment. But first, which question, precisely, was put to him? Was it, “Will you have Muslims in your cabinet?” Or was it, “Do you think you need a Muslim in your cabinet to effectively fight the war on terror?” Mitt said this afternoon that Mansour Ijaz asked him the second question, not the first. TPM’s two witnesses paraphrase the question thusly:

“His question was something to the effect of, ‘Considering the problems that we have with the Jihadist movement and the problems we have with the Middle East, would you consider having a Muslim as an adviser that can guide you as to what kind of decisions to make with regards to the Middle East?’”

He said, ‘Probably not.’”

And:

“My question was, ‘Look, with the amount of Muslims that don’t trust the United States, would you consider it prudent to put a Muslim in your cabinet?’ He said, ‘Most likely not.’

Both of those formulations are equivalent to the second question — whether we need Muslims in the cabinet to have a more effective foreign policy — not whether they should be summarily disqualified from cabinet positions. TPM claims, though, that Mitt followed up with something suggesting the latter view:

[Irma] Aguirre added that what Romney said next surprised her. “He said something to the effect of, ‘They’re radicals. There’s no talking to them. There’s no negotiating with them.’ I can’t remember the exact words he used, but that was the explanation. We left thinking, ‘Wow, what a racist comment. He automatically assumed that all Muslims are radical.’”

The other witness, George Harris, corroborated it:

[H]e went on to say what Irma said he said. I was more angry than she was. I said, ‘I’m not gonna support this guy.’ If he’s gonna be President of the United States, don’t you think you need to be a little more open minded?”

I said that I believe he was asked the question they claim they asked him. Why? Because it was mentioned two months ago in the September issue of George Harris’s magazine, Liberty Watch. The incident is recounted here by editor Mike Zigler — except, curiously, the incendiary quote about Muslims being intractable “radicals” isn’t mentioned. Zigler isn’t favorably disposed towards Romney, either, so he has no obvious reason to omit it: He knocks neoconservatism and laments the fact that Republicans aren’t more solicitous of Muslims like … Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, per his aborted attempt to propagandize at Ground Zero. Zigler doesn’t say if he was at the luncheon with Aguirre and Harris but he clearly knows the details of the exchange with Mitt. In which case, why not include the money quote about “radicals”? It would have been an exclamation point on his thesis. It’s also worth noting that the question asked of Mitt as framed by Zigler — “If you are elected President, will you include any Muslim members in your cabinet?” — is considerably simpler than Aguirre’s and Harris’s versions of it, although I’m not sure which way that cuts. Maybe it suggests that Zigler wasn’t there and doesn’t have firsthand knowledge of everything Mitt said. But even if he wasn’t, wouldn’t Harris have told him what Mitt said about Muslims supposedly being “radicals”? That’s a considerably more interesting detail than him saying he probably wouldn’t appoint one to help fight the war on terror. Seems like an odd tidbit to skip.

Finally, what exactly is Mitt’s motive supposed to be here in the left’s imagining? Presumably it’s that he’s trying to appeal to the conservative base by slipping on a “No Muslims Allowed” sandwich board and demagoging religious minorities to oblivion. But if so, why is he insisting that he didn’t say these things and that he’ll make cabinet appointments based on merit? Huckabee is making a strong play in Iowa for social cons, the same voters whom the left believes would be most susceptible to a little Muslim-baiting. Here’s Romney’s big demagogic opportunity — yet he’s spinning it the other way. It doesn’t square.

Update: If the answer to the last paragraph is that he’s confining these sentiments to small private events lest the press get wind of them — which kills the Mitt-as-demagogue meme, but so be it — then it’s an extraordinary lapse for the otherwise famously disciplined Romney machine. A politician with a prejudice has two options: either keep it to himself or, more cynically, go public with it and use it to wring votes from like-minded people. The dumbest course, especially in the post-”Macaca” YouTube age, is to cop to it but only in private.


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Comment pages: 1 2

He wouldn’t have a Muslim in his cabinet and many wouldn’t have a Mormon in the oval office. Now that is moral relativism.

tommylotto on November 27, 2007 at 8:14 PM

demagoging religious minorities

Pot meet kettle.

liberrocky on November 27, 2007 at 8:14 PM

Honesty is always the best policy. If Mitt just came out and said, right now he is not accepting applications for cabinets, but if he were there would be extensive background checks. And that he reserves the right to select the best candidate for a cabinet, the one that serves the people, the constitution, at the behest of the President.
If he wants to sub-contract out to India, because labor is so much cheaper their, then that is his prerogative.
That is why you do a thorough investigation of the man, before you place him in office. Not choosing a Muslim doesn’t bother me, and it doesn’t make him a bigot. That Muslim, just may not be the right man, at the right time, for the right job.
It is the Presidents call. Mitt carries more important negative baggage then this.
So now get out of this Mitt, quit flip-flopping, just say “No, not right now”.

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 8:15 PM

Whats the problem again?

Jay on November 27, 2007 at 8:16 PM

[H]e went on to say what Irma said he said. I was more angry than she was. I said, ‘I’m not gonna support this guy.’ If he’s gonna be President of the United States, don’t you think you need to be a little more open minded?”blockquote>

Nope, not since 9/11.

Haven’t heard much criticism of the bad Muslims coming from the good Muslims. Are we to assume there is a difference, when there is noticeable silence?

fogw on November 27, 2007 at 8:17 PM

Whats the problem again?

Jay on November 27, 2007 at 8:16 PM

I don’t see any.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:19 PM

All of these examples, I think, come from “private” fundraising events, where people have paid quite a bit to go hear Mitt speak. It could very well be that he speaks a little more loosely when he assumes the crowd is more ideologically homogeneous and likely to agree with him on these kinds of things. Also, how do candidates usually handle the audio/video recording of these private events? Not to get all Truther here, but perhaps that’s a reason why we’ve not seen any evidence of these exchanges.

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 8:20 PM

tommylotto on November 27, 2007 at 8:14 PM

That’s correct, and neither is a bigot, it just doesn’t fit their standard…whatever their standard is.
If a series of bombs and terrorist threats, were set off by the Calaminites, and a Calaminite was up for cabinet post, it would be best to hold off, and find someone else. No one is the “best person” for a job, when you have 200 million people to choose from. It is called judgment, discernment, or instinct…either way, that is how you survive…maybe it is just leadership.

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 8:21 PM

I’m not big on automatically dismissing potentially qualified individuals but we’re talking hypotheticals here. Being upfront would seem to be far more honest than the stupid “political answer” about wanting to consider everybody.

Put another way, I want a Secretary of——-, that is fully qualified and happens to be Muslim. Not a Muslim that can be slotted into the cabinet as Secretary of ——-.

Beyond that, how many Americans are going to be outraged with this story that the hate Mitt crowd (including those here) keeps drumming up because they simply can’t let man get a fair airing of his ideas because GASP! He’s a Mormon and Christian and socially liberal (the trifecta of a certain intolerant type of poster).

highhopes on November 27, 2007 at 8:22 PM

This is the most manufactured controversy I’ve seen in a long while. It now seems clear that Mitt was asked, basically, if he would specifically appoint a Muslim for the purpose of reaching out to Muslims who don’t like America.

He said no. What would you have said? And would you really want a President who makes symbolic or affirmative action appointments to the cabinet? That’s what the Dems do, and conservatives have rightly criticized them for it.

You really have to contort yourself, especially from a conservative viewpoint, to believe that Mitt’s comment is bigoted against Muslims.

Let me be clear on something. He did NOT say, “I won’t appoint Muslims to my cabinet.” What he DID say was (essentially), “I won’t appoint Muslims to my cabinet for the sole purpose of ‘reaching out’ to radical Muslims.”

If you can’t support that statement, you’re probably not a conservative.

Nessuno on November 27, 2007 at 8:25 PM

Problems, problems, problems all day long
Will my problems work out right or wrong
The mussies don’t like anything I do-o-o
AllahPundit seems to feel the same way too

Problems, problems, pro-o-o-o-blems
They’re all on account-a my lovin’ America like I do-o-o-o-o
Problems, problems, pro-o-o-o-blems
They won’t be solved until I’m sure of you-o-ou
You can solve my problems with a vote that’s tru-u-e

Problems, problems, problems all day long
- Brothers

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:26 PM

Whats the problem again?

Jay on November 27, 2007 at 8:16 PM

The problem is the posters who have run around calling this kind of think bigotry. Now their candidate is a bigot, by their definition.
And we (the bigots by their narrow beliefs) are stuck defending what we have always known;and defending a guy who has a lot worse things in his past then choosing who he wants, and for whatever reason, to serve him and the country.

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 8:27 PM

The mussies don’t like anything I do-o-o
AllahPundit seems to feel the same way too

I’m not sure what you’re talking about but then that’s often the case. Everyone understands I’m defending Mitt from this charge, right? I thought the post was fairly straightforward but sometimes I wonder.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:29 PM

I can’t believe I’m reading this crap on HotAir. I’m not even in Romney’s camp but my respect for this blog has declined dramatically.

As for this “controversy,” I see none and am baffled how this can be controversial considering the state of things in the world. But more bothersome to me is that it isn’t even about that–but like everything else with Romney and the bigots who are threatened by him–it is his religion.

Patriot33 on November 27, 2007 at 8:30 PM

anyone see the Dem congressman on O’reilly about the surge?

jp on November 27, 2007 at 8:32 PM

I can’t believe I’m reading this crap on HotAir. I’m not even in Romney’s camp but my respect for this blog has declined dramatically.

But see, you’re really not reading this on Hot Air. Because you obviously haven’t read the post or else you’d know I’m defending Mitt.

Anyone actually going to read this post? Or have I misunderstood and you’re all gung ho for a categorical ban on Muslim cabinet members, Zal Khalilzad and people like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser included?

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:32 PM

It doesn’t square.

Boy I’m with you on this one, AP. As noted in the update, Mitt runs a media savvy campaign, and seems to be a tight ship with a consistent message, so this is hard to figure – he’s got to know anything inflammatory will make it to the web.

I will say this though, he has shown that he isn’t that quick on his feet with unexpected questions; the question about his sons’ service for ex. Maybe this is another case of that, and could be a case of hearing a keyword in a question and saying no categorically. Still, he’s a polished candidate, so it’s kind of hard to figure.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 8:32 PM

Everyone understands I’m defending Mitt from this charge, right? I thought the post was fairly straightforward but sometimes I wonder.

It hasn’t seemed that way at all imo. But I’ll redact what I said about the blog if what you’re saying is true.

Patriot33 on November 27, 2007 at 8:34 PM

The Koran is diametrically oppose to liberty and the U.S. Constitution !

D-I-A-M-E-T-R-I-C-A-L-L-Y !!!

Not wanting to appoint those who believe in the Koran, and if someone does not then they are not Muslim, is not being a Gibot !

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:34 PM

It’s just extremely difficult to see him labeling a religion as radicals broad-stroke like that. Something is missing here.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 8:35 PM

It hasn’t seemed that way at all imo. But I’ll redact what I said about the blog if what you’re saying is true.

The whole point of the post was to wonder why, if TPM has this terrible quote allegedly uttered by Mitt, that quote didn’t appear in Zigler’s recounting of the event in September. It’s suspicious.

Did I really not make that clear enough? I’m asking seriously.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:35 PM

I’m not sure what you’re talking about but then that’s often the case. Everyone understands I’m defending Mitt from this charge, right? I thought the post was fairly straightforward but sometimes I wonder.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:29 PM

Problems, problems, problems all day long
Will my problems work out right or wrong
MB4 don’t like anything I do-o-o
Too many others seems to feel the same way too

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:36 PM

And we (the bigots by their narrow beliefs) are stuck defending what we have always known;and defending a guy who has a lot worse things in his past then choosing who he wants, and for whatever reason, to serve him and the country

What are those worse things exactly?

paulsur on November 27, 2007 at 8:36 PM

I think its all B.S. and will blow over without much need for defense. They are diggin for dirt and the only place it will be found is beneath their nails.

Jay on November 27, 2007 at 8:39 PM

Did I really not make that clear enough? I’m asking seriously.

Reads like commentary without a set conclusion.

But what I learned from this weekend is that (I think) I’m supposed to say you are biased against Fred.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 8:40 PM

Did I really not make that clear enough? I’m asking seriously.

Quite clear to me. I have the same questions as you. Normally I would ignore this kind of thing, but I think there is a greater malevolence at work here possibly trying to discredit not only this candidate, but conservative voters in general.

paulsur on November 27, 2007 at 8:41 PM

Did I really not make that clear enough? I’m asking seriously.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:35 PM

The whole point about these posts today, percieved by me until 5 minutes ago, was a PC “Gotcha!” on Romney which comes particularly ironic and hypocritical because of the scrutiny recently over his religion. Basically, I saw an attack to undermine Romney’s campaign.

Patriot33 on November 27, 2007 at 8:42 PM

Anyone actually going to read this post? Or have I misunderstood and you’re all gung ho for a categorical ban on Muslim cabinet members, Zal Khalilzad and people like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser included?

Khalilzad has been one of the sharpest members of the Bush team. If they had used him earlier in Iraq, we’d be further along. Having at least a couple muslims involved in Iraq reconstruction isn’t a bad idea. You can’t rebuild the country with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

dedalus on November 27, 2007 at 8:43 PM

Update: If the answer to the last paragraph is that he’s confining these sentiments to small private events lest the press get wind of them — which kills the Mitt-as-demagogue meme, but so be it — then it’s an extraordinary lapse for the otherwise famously disciplined Romney machine. A politician with a prejudice has two options: either keep it to himself or, more cynically, go public with it and use it to wring votes from like-minded people. The dumbest course, especially in the post-”Macaca” YouTube age, is to cop to it but only in private

It may not be that he actually has this bias, just that he may be pandering a bit more in private settings. Yes, it would be a dumb thing to do, but we’ve surely seen dumber.

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 8:43 PM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

I have a feeling that that particular day he wasn’t after votes from the masses.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:47 PM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

Or solidify your base, or it just slips and you can’t take it back so you begin the “pander dance”.

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 8:48 PM

You can’t rebuild the country with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

dedalus on November 27, 2007 at 8:43 PM

Iraq, no you can’t.

It will probably take an act of God.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:48 PM

I’m not going to vote for this guy just because he says he won’t have Muslims in his cabinet, but I sure as hell won’t vote for anyone if they say they will.

Bigot this!

thejackal on November 27, 2007 at 8:49 PM

I would make my cabinet swear on a stack of tax forms instead of a religious portfolio that’s for dang sure! We will not raise taxes, we will gut the IRS, we will cut government!

SouthernGent on November 27, 2007 at 8:49 PM

thejackal on November 27, 2007 at 8:49 PM

Do you think Zal Khalilzad hasn’t been an important asset to the administration?

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:53 PM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

Perhaps pander’s not the best word, but Mitt’s noting if not calculating. If somebody asks the question, he’s gotta answer it, and he may come down a little harder behind closed doors. I’m not accusing him of any kind of crazy underground anti-Muslim campaign or anything. I’m just saying that the fact that his his alleged “private” comments and public spin don’t match up should not be held as evidence one way or another. I guess we won’t know until we see or hear a tape from one of these events. I find it hard to imagine that there were no recordings made of either one, although it’s possible.

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 8:53 PM

And this is a big deal because…?

WasatchMan on November 27, 2007 at 8:53 PM

It will probably take an act of God.

Good thing then everyone there seems really religious.

dedalus on November 27, 2007 at 8:54 PM

Does anyone think that Thomas Jefferson would have appointed a muslim to is cabinet?

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:59 PM

So???

I wouldn’t have any muslims in my cabinet either. CAIR, the indicted co-conspirator can stuff that in their turban and smoke it.

BobJones-77 on November 27, 2007 at 9:00 PM

When there becomes available some way to tell the difference between radical islam and whatever moderate islam might be. I could be convinced to support the idea of a cabinet level Muslim. The test comes when they have to swear allegiance to this nation above their spiritual beliefs. When the aim of Muslims is the Islamifaction of the world, I just as soon they hold no position of power or influence in this Judio-Christian values based nation.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft on November 27, 2007 at 9:04 PM

Zelsdorf Ragshaft on November 27, 2007 at 9:04 PM

Pretty much everybody who gets sworn into office in this country puts their hand on a Bible or Koran or some other book while they pledge to uphold the Constitution. By doing this, they implicitly state that they deem the Constitution of the USA compatible with their own religious beliefs. I’m not sure you can really do any better than that.

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 9:09 PM

Zal Khalilzad

Who?

thejackal on November 27, 2007 at 9:09 PM

Now you can color me a Mitt man.

TheSitRep on November 27, 2007 at 9:10 PM

Does anyone think that Thomas Jefferson would have appointed a muslim to is cabinet?

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:59 PM

Keith Ellison was sworn in on a Koran that belonged to him. I’d point out that Jefferson also owned slaves and ran the country at a time when there were a couple less Muslim-Americans.

CAIR, the indicted co-conspirator can stuff that in their turban and smoke it.

BobJones-77 on November 27, 2007 at 9:00 PM

There are millions of American Muslims. CAIR has a membership of 1,700.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 9:12 PM

Zal Khalilzad

Who?

thejackal on November 27, 2007 at 9:09 PM

This dude

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 9:14 PM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

He did the same thing when he lied to the NRA member in telling him he was a gun owner and hunted all his life- it was a private comment that was overheard. I don’t know why he does it- I think pandering is so part of his persona that it’s just his default response.

Hollowpoint on November 27, 2007 at 9:19 PM

When there becomes available some way to tell the difference between radical islam and whatever moderate islam might be.

Zelsdorf Ragshaft on November 27, 2007 at 9:04 PM

In medieval times, people created fairy tales and magical creatures to make sense of their world. One of the most endearing is the unicorn, a horse with a single horn that symbolized purity and wholesomeness. In our modern times, people in Europe and the United States consider themselves more sophisticated and rational than people from the Middle Ages, but we still create myths, albeit more subtle ones.

Daily we hear reports of violent acts committed by Islamic terrorists on every inhabited continent. We try to wish it away with the myth of the ‘Moderate Muslim’, telling ourselves the Islamic agenda has been’ hijacked’ by a ‘tiny minority of extremists’ and that soon the huge, silent, moderate majority of Muslims will take charge and change things. However, post 9/11 very few Muslims have condemned terrorist actions. We are still waiting for moderates to stand and deliver, identifying and removing extremist thugs from their mosques and their communities. Waiting for this self-correction is our modern version of unicorn searching.

Moderate Muslims will not be able to wrest control of the agenda for several reasons. First of all, Mohammed, the Messenger of Allah’s eternal word, was not moderate. No moderate can legitimately tell another Muslim to stop doing the extremist things Mohammed himself did. Also, the Qur’an condones violence and coercion to further the Islamic agenda. People whom we call moderates are labeled hypocrites by Allah Himself in the Qur’an. Moderates will always lose the argument because, as ex-Muslim author Ibn Warraq says, “There may be moderates in Islam but Islam itself is not moderate.”

Islamic expert Daniel Pipes and others estimate ten percent of the Islamic world to be militant. In 1933 when the Nazi party took control of Germany it had 2 million members, comprising only three percent of Germany’s sixty-six million citizens. A tiny minority of extremists can control a vast number of moderates, making them irrelevant.

Placing hope in ‘The Moderate Muslim’ is like searching for
unicorns in the forest.
- A_Plague_on_Both_Houses

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 9:20 PM

Who?

thejackal on November 27, 2007 at 9:09 PM

Zalmay Mamozy Khalilzad. Permanent US Ambassador to the United Nations. Senior State Department official advising President Reagan on Afghanistan and the Iran-Iraq war. Deputy Undersecretary for Policy Planning during George H.W. Bush’s presidency. Director of the Strategy, Doctrine, and Force Structure at RAND.

Helped President Bush plan to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11. Served as Bush’s Special Presidential Envoy for Afghanistan. Served as Ambassador to Afghanistan from 2003 to 2005. At that point he became U.S. Ambassador to Iraq.

Helped make sure 2005 Iraqi elections ran smoothly. Helped reach compromise to ratify Iraqi Constitution. In February 2006 warned of spreading sectarian violence.

Confirmed as U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations by a unanimous voice vote on March 29, 2007.

This year he warned that Iran was killing American soldiers in Iraq and that the country was going ahead with its nuclear program.

Currently the highest ranking Muslim in the Bush Administration.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 9:22 PM

Pretty much everybody who gets sworn into office in this country puts their hand on a Bible or Koran or some other book while they pledge to uphold the Constitution. By doing this, they implicitly state that they deem the Constitution of the USA compatible with their own religious beliefs. I’m not sure you can really do any better than that.

Big S on November 27, 2007 at 9:09 PM

The koran is antithetical to the U.S. Constitution.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 9:24 PM

Keith Ellison was sworn in on a Koran that belonged to him.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 9:12 PM

I know, and Jefferson is probably still turning over in is grave.

Unlike John Adams, who took the measure of Islam, who denounced Islam as a belief-system, Jefferson merely denounced the behavior of all the Muslims he ever had any dealings with.

This stunt by Ellison to use a book owned by Jefferson to make it appear to the world that Jefferson’s possession of the Koran implied some kind of favorable attitude toward Islam was despicable.

Everything Jefferson held dear is flatly contradicted by Islam and the koran.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 9:35 PM

This stunt by Ellison to use a book owned by Jefferson to make it appear to the world that Jefferson’s possession of the Koran implied some kind of favorable attitude toward Islam was despicable.

Yeah that was pretty pathetic, though it has some irony in it.

Of course, they aren’t the only ones spinning – at that time there was a lot of the ‘Jefferson went to war b/c he read the Koran’ going on too.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 9:38 PM

Nessuno on November 27, 2007 at 8:25 PM

A ray of clarity. Humble thanks.

Now you can color me a Mitt man.

TheSitRep on November 27, 2007 at 9:10 PM

I love you, SitRep. I came to the same conclusion just a few minutes ago.

Dang I feel 60 pounds lighter tonight!

RushBaby on November 27, 2007 at 10:21 PM

I know, and Jefferson is probably still turning over in is grave.

Unlike John Adams, who took the measure of Islam, who denounced Islam as a belief-system, Jefferson merely denounced the behavior of all the Muslims he ever had any dealings with.

This stunt by Ellison to use a book owned by Jefferson to make it appear to the world that Jefferson’s possession of the Koran implied some kind of favorable attitude toward Islam was despicable.

Everything Jefferson held dear is flatly contradicted by Islam and the koran.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 9:35 PM

Jefferson had the safety of distance from Islam. If they had been here, it would have a different story. I suppose it’s good trait to ignore impossibly distant threats, but we should admit that over human history everything becomes close.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 10:31 PM

If you look into Islam you will see that it is imprudent to trust a practicing Muslim.

BL@KBIRD on November 27, 2007 at 10:48 PM

Did I really not make that clear enough? I’m asking seriously.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:35 PM

AP, it was clear. The fact that two seperate sources are coming out simultaneously on the same day about Romney’s position on promoting a muslim as a presidential cabinet memeber, both ironically in this day and age, without witnesses and/or video or audio proof is certainly suspect.

Placing hope in ‘The Moderate Muslim’ is like searching for
unicorns in the forest.
- A_Plague_on_Both_Houses

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 9:20 PM

MB4. That is an exceptional post by a very good commentator at Jihad Watch. It is one of my favorites.

Jefferson had the safety of distance from Islam. If they had been here, it would have a different story. I suppose it’s good trait to ignore impossibly distant threats, but we should admit that over human history everything becomes close.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 10:31 PM

thuja,

My dear friend. I have only engaged you once today, but I have to tell you, you speak without any foundational historical knowledge at all. Jefferson ignored Islam???

Please google barbary pirates and thomas jefferson.

Please, I am begging you.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 10:56 PM

Maybe I’ll vote for Mitt after all !

SIJ6141 on November 27, 2007 at 11:01 PM

thuja,

My dear friend. I have only engaged you once today, but I have to tell you, you speak without any foundational historical knowledge at all. Jefferson ignored Islam???

Please google barbary pirates and thomas jefferson.

Please, I am begging you.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 10:56 PM

Awake, you are completely right. And since you made such a personal plea, I will be personal back. I hope this isn’t bad form. My mind has been pre-occupied today. My aunt died. I know it’s not much of excuse for not being on point, but these happen and perhaps part of our humanity is dealing with things. It’s so hard here with the pro-lifers, since I’m glad my aunt died. Still, her death is tragic and I am sad.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 11:03 PM

Nessuno on November 27, 2007 at 8:25 PM

Very well said indeed.

What are those worse things exactly?
paulsur on November 27, 2007 at 8:36 PM

Don’t ask! You’ll never hear the end of it from r2b.

Jefferson had the safety of distance from Islam. If they had been here, it would have a different story. I suppose it’s good trait to ignore impossibly distant threats, but we should admit that over human history everything becomes close.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 10:31 PM

That’s not entirely true. See the First Barbary Wars.

Now to the meat of this story which I think is very fishy – what is a former muckety muck Republican fundraiser doing talking to HuffPo?

Fund raisers get paid by the percentage of dough they raise. The fact that she worked for the Republicans is not guarantee that she is a loyal trooper, and she may have gotten a better offer elsewhere.

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:13 PM

It’s so hard here with the pro-lifers, since I’m glad my aunt died. Still, her death is tragic and I am sad.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 11:03 PM

OK, sorry for your loss. The pro-lifers do not object to death as a means of release from suffering for the aged or the terminally infirmed, but my Christian heart beckons me to cease and desist from anything but offering condolences.

Talk to you soon.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 11:14 PM

That’s not entirely true.

Think it would have been different if it were, say, Hindu pirates?

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:16 PM

AP, it was clear. The fact that two seperate sources are coming out simultaneously on the same day about Romney’s position on promoting a muslim as a presidential cabinet memeber, both ironically in this day and age, without witnesses and/or video or audio proof is certainly suspect.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 10:56 PM

Great point. And who remembers what was said in August? These two could be plants, but if you ask people who went to the fund raiser who weren’t plants they probably won’t remember – unless something shocking was said and it really registered. Which I doubt.

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:20 PM

Think it would have been different if it were, say, Hindu pirates?

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:16 PM

LOL. Hindu pirates. Good one.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 11:26 PM

That’s not entirely true.

Think it would have been different if it were, say, Hindu pirates?

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:16 PM

I’m not sure I get your point. I was quite understated when I said “it’s not entirely true” by the way.

I look forward to your explanation.

Thuja,

I’m sorry for your loss. I don’t know you other than having read one of your posts which mentioned your Aunt’s situation the other day, so I’ll leave it at dittoes to the sentiments of awake on November 27, 2007 at 11:14 PM.

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:27 PM

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:20 PM

Danish,

Yeah, this one stinks mightily in my opinion, as AP astutlely pointed out.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 11:27 PM

I hope this isn’t bad form. My mind has been pre-occupied today. My aunt died. I know it’s not much of excuse for not being on point, but these happen and perhaps part of our humanity is dealing with things. It’s so hard here with the pro-lifers, since I’m glad my aunt died. Still, her death is tragic and I am sad.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 11:03 PM

thuja. Every word is understood and respected.

That’s all.

RushBaby on November 27, 2007 at 11:27 PM

I suggest this site just re-name itself Hot Air for Hillary and end the suspense.

Labamigo on November 27, 2007 at 11:28 PM

Whats the problem again?

Jay on November 27, 2007 at 8:16 PM

I don’t see any.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:19 PM

Word.

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 11:30 PM

You’ll never hear the end of it from r2b.

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:13 PM

The one who stirs, just for the sake of (counter)stirring, has a victory tonight.

RushBaby on November 27, 2007 at 11:32 PM

I’m not sure I get your point. I was quite understated when I said “it’s not entirely true” by the way.

I was just curious if you thought it was because of Islam or because of piracy.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:35 PM

RushBaby on November 27, 2007 at 11:27 PM

+1

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:36 PM

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 11:35 PM

Here’s a hint. I don’t know, maybe I’m not really up on Hindu history, but I’m not aware of a comparable situation of religiously based extortion (from my wiki link to First Barbary Wars):

In 1786 Jefferson and John Adams went to negotiate with Tripoli’s envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman or (Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves. Jefferson reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:

The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet (Mohammed), that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman (or Muslim) who should be slain in battle was sure to go to heaven.[1]

Things have not changed much since 1776 1786, have they?

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:56 PM

Could we get a take on this from the Rudiani-Kerik adminstration?

saved on November 28, 2007 at 12:04 AM

Let me be clear on something. He did NOT say, “I won’t appoint Muslims to my cabinet.” What he DID say was (essentially), “I won’t appoint Muslims to my cabinet for the sole purpose of ‘reaching out’ to radical Muslims.”

That is how I am reading it as well.

Ripclawe on November 28, 2007 at 12:12 AM

Buy Danish on November 27, 2007 at 11:56 PM

Sorry, I didn’t mean to put you on the spot, and Hindu was just a random replacement. I was just curious. I find this topic extremely fascinating.

But yeah, things haven’t changed too much. When your religion begins by preying on caravans and continues it to preying on shipping – there a bit of a pattern.

I’d made a quick distinction though (b/c I actually think it relates to Mitt and this situtation); but if we went to war because it was Islam then we fought because of an identity, if we went to war because of piracy then we fought over an action. So identity vs. action. I’m curious about Mitt because whether he mentioned radicals or just referred to the religion, it would tell me how he thinks – identity or action.

My own view (to be fair since I asked you yours) is that the war was essentially over trade and the reason it was Jefferson’s action was before the Constitution, there simply wasn’t the ability to coordinate (agrarian South not so concerned with maritime North needs), Washington didn’t have the ability, Adams built up the Navy – so Jefferson got it done.

One final note in defense of thuja:) I don’t think Jefferson envisioned the our shores ever facing the threat of sharia law – which is the unfortunate stated goal of some our fellow citizens.

Spirit of 1776 on November 28, 2007 at 12:18 AM

Spirit of 1776 on November 28, 2007 at 12:18 AM

I don’t mind being put on the spot at all, but my slightly snarky response was because I don’t see what the Barbary Wars have to do with any other religion than Islam. I think this is one of the most fascinating stories in our history, especially in light of the wars we are fighting now and the parallels are striking.

And because of this:

Then-ambassador to France Thomas Jefferson argued that conceding the ransom would only encourage more attacks. His objections fell on the deaf ears of an inexperienced American government too riven with domestic discord to make a strong show of force overseas. The U.S. paid Algiers the ransom, and continued to pay up to $1 million per year over the next 15 years for the safe passage of American ships or the return of American hostages. Payments in ransom and tribute to the privateering states amounted to 20 percent of United States government annual revenues in 1800.

We did not choose to go to war in 1798, anymore than we did after 9/11. In both cases we did not go to war because of Islam; it was the other way around, as a result of their religioulys inspired actions we took opposing action. The only discernible difference is that the former was clearly for their financial gain, while the latter was meant to terrorize us and destroy us financially. Although come to think of it, that may have been their intention in 1798 too.

The fact that they reneged on the treaty and attacked us again later on also shows a pattern of not being able to trust those danged Muslims.

It’s possible that Jefferson did not envision our shores facing the threat of Sharia Law (after all the logistics of getting the Ottoman conquerers to our shore was not as easy as hopping in a few planes) but in the past, like today with fatwas, they have never hidden their intentions from us, have they?

I really can’t speak to your trade theory, although from the little I know about the Barbary Wars I would probably disagree, and I’m also not sure if I get your point about Romney and Muslims in the cabinet. Whether they were described as radicals or not doesn’t seem that important to me, but if I were to guess I’d go with “action” on his part too.

Buy Danish on November 28, 2007 at 12:55 AM

Considering the facts that Muslims have not been a traditional part of US culture, not arriving in any numbers until the very recent past, and that there are still not very many muslims in the US, I find it difficult to even think that one should find a muslim in the cabinet. The whole question is preposterous.

As to whether one denying such a position to a muslim just because of his ideology is “religious bigotry”, that is ridiculous, as no one would have any problems if someone said that he wouldn’t bring any Communists into his cabinet (and islam is just a political ideology, like Communism). There are many nice Communists, and many smart ones. So what? There are nicer and smarter people who aren’t Communists and who would make better cabinet members. That goes, with an extra order of magnitude, for muslims. Beyond that, the idea that 9/11 happens and then, all of a sudden, muslims should start showing up in the cabinet is just … beyond words. Whoever asked the question about a muslim in the cabinet needs an intellectual dressing down – though he probably won’t understand it.

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2007 at 1:08 AM

In both cases we did not go to war because of Islam; it was the other way around, as a result of their religioulys inspired actions we took opposing action.

That’s a good way of putting it, not our catalyst, but theirs. I’d agree with that.

but my slightly snarky response was because I don’t see what the Barbary Wars have to do with any other religion than Islam.

So I gathered:) I think it is more related to piracy than Islam, but as you implied – religiously inspired, so if no Islam, no piracy perhaps.

I really can’t speak to your trade theory

I just mean they essentially wanted extortion money to allow ships for trade. They pushed too far. So the war was to protect our economic interests, namely trade in the region.

they have never hidden their intentions from us, have they?

Nope.
As to the wiki reference, I’m a big fan of TJ, but I don’t think his concerns fell on deaf ears so much as there were issues of practicality involved. It’s pretty difficult for me to see how it could have handled otherwise. Without Adams building the navy…

Nevermind the Mitt part, I just like to understand the candidates thinking process. Anyway, I’m off for the day. Thanks for the conv. All the best.

Spirit of 1776 on November 28, 2007 at 1:19 AM

So I gathered:) I think it is more related to piracy than Islam, but as you implied – religiously inspired, so if no Islam, no piracy perhaps.

Spirit of 1776 on November 28, 2007 at 1:19 AM

Okay, now I get your point. The Hindu bit threw me off, as that was another religion.

I still don’t think you can separate the Islam out from the piracy. This quote from a very good article I found today about the clash of our civilizations that says it well:


Islam, unlike other formal religious faiths, is an integral way of life. The Muslim (“One who submits”) can allow no separation between his life and his religion, his politics and his faith.

Goodnight!

Buy Danish on November 28, 2007 at 1:36 AM

When the Mormons stop all their suicide bombings maybe I’ll consider voting for one.

Oh… that’s right…

(Even though I find their angel Moroni risible, it doesn’t taint their existence with intolerance as some unnamed religion’s tenets tend to.)

I’d personally prefer Muslims in the liquor cabinet.

Less trouble.

profitsbeard on November 28, 2007 at 2:25 AM

progressoverpeace on November 28, 2007 at 1:08 AM

What he said!

MB4 on November 28, 2007 at 2:37 AM

Or have I misunderstood and you’re all gung ho for a categorical ban on Muslim cabinet members, Zal Khalilzad and people like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser included?

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:32 PM

Yes, Allah, a good number of your readers are for a categorical ban on Muslim cabinet members. I doubt you’ve misunderstood anything as you’ve surely been reading some of the comments on the recent threads, and they’ve become more and more vitriolic and ridiculously close-minded.

RW Wacko on November 28, 2007 at 8:14 AM

Allah-
I’ll admit that I’m a proud Fredneck- but that aside- It seems to me that every day you go WAY out’a yer way to MAKE DOUBLE DOG SURE that Mitt gets a FAIR shake.
Is this even a story worth talkin’ about?? Would you be so wound up if it was Fred? Just wonderin’.

Ex-tex on November 28, 2007 at 8:49 AM

So are we all cool with Bush appointing a Christian leader like an Oral Roberts to reach out to all the Christian abortion clinic bombers and such? I mean it’s like Christians are far worst than Muslims from what I’m lead to believe by the media. They did the crusades you know.

I’m willing to bet money that if Bush appointed a Christian for the sole purpose to reach out to Christians we would hear no end to first amendment volitions but everyone is cool to appointing Muslims because Muslims are like a race so there is no first amendment problems.

The one thing I can say about all the responses in this thread is that I’m shocked at how much political correctness has been instilled into the everyday lives of Americans. I think the cause is lost and Western culture and civilization is dying out. Long live the collective!

jmarcure on November 28, 2007 at 9:01 AM

Wouldn’t say he got wound up about it since he raise questions about the context of the questions themselves, and later noted the Clinton connections and all.

Also, I don’t take AP as one to tolerate bigotry of any sort, no matter who it comes from. I am sure that even if it was buddy, preferred candidate, and fellow New Yawker Rudy involved here, that he would be raising the same questions. I’m not saying that Mitt is a bigot btw. From what I’ve read, I don’t think so, necessarily. Consider the statement: “would you consider it prudent to put a Muslim in your cabinet?’ He said, ‘Most likely not.’” In my mind, that is not a racist statement. He is saying that he disagrees that you NEED to have a Muslim in the Cabinet, that it is NECESSARILY a wise thing to do b/c we are involved in a war of terror against radical Islam. I think the people crying foul here are lacking in the criticial thinking dept or something.

RW Wacko on November 28, 2007 at 9:11 AM

Mitt told a second audience he probably wouldn’t have Muslims in his cabinet

…and the problem is?
I am not fan of Mitt’s. I mean his handling of the Big Dig by giving Bechtel (a major campaign supporter for decades) a pass, and even a bonus for that fiasco, should have eliminated him from any race.
Be that as it may, the president should have the sole discretion to select anyone, for any reason to help run this country. I want the best, and the most compatible cabinet at the head of this country.
That is why we go through this selection process. To weed out candidates who give favors to their campaign contributors. To weed out candidates who put their best interest ahead of the country…so we don’t have to worry that they will make coo-koo nominations.

right2bright on November 28, 2007 at 9:12 AM

I’m willing to bet money that if Bush appointed a Christian for the sole purpose to reach out to Christians we would hear no end to first amendment volitions but everyone is cool to appointing Muslims because Muslims are like a race so there is no first amendment problems.

Yeah, remember the whole faith-based initiatives uproar. Got bombarded with the editorializing about that in the local papers about how the world was ending.

But think there is a difference about appointing a Muslim to satisty a minority group and appointing a Christian to spread the Gospel. I don’t like either btw.

RW Wacko on November 28, 2007 at 9:15 AM

I will say this though, he has shown that he isn’t that quick on his feet with unexpected questions; the question about his sons’ service for ex. Maybe this is another case of that, and could be a case of hearing a keyword in a question and saying no categorically. Still, he’s a polished candidate, so it’s kind of hard to figure.

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 8:32 PM

Unless an event is as unexpected as 9/11, most possible events are pretty much pre-thought out and an appropriate response decided. Sometimes we get blind-sided, and find our response not exactly the best one to the question.

No, I am not exactly a Mitt fan. But I do think he did a decent job in responding to someone who had an axe to grind.

Texas Nick 77 on November 28, 2007 at 9:26 AM

Iraq, no you can’t.

It will probably take an act of God.

MB4 on November 27, 2007 at 8:48 PM

Not really, just some dedicated people. Time and effort. And more than a few bucks.

Been there, done that.

Texas Nick 77 on November 28, 2007 at 9:31 AM

I would make my cabinet swear on a stack of tax forms instead of a religious portfolio…

SouthernGent on November 27, 2007 at 8:49 PM

That sounds like hillaryspeak.

You know, as in, “You don’t do as I say, and expect the IRS to come calling.”

Texas Nick 77 on November 28, 2007 at 9:34 AM

Keith Ellison was sworn in on a Koran that belonged to him. I’d point out that Jefferson also owned slaves and ran the country at a time when there were a couple less Muslim-Americans.

CAIR, the indicted co-conspirator can stuff that in their turban and smoke it.

BobJones-77 on November 27, 2007 at 9:00 PM
There are millions of American Muslims. CAIR has a membership of 1,700.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 9:12 PM

1) Thomas Jefferson obtained his copy of the koran to understand more about his enemy. He wanted to find out why the Barbary pirates thought they had a right to demand tribute for passge in an open sea.

2)And where do we see the “millions of muslims in the USA” minus the 1,700 denouncing terrorists?

Texas Nick 77 on November 28, 2007 at 9:42 AM

[Irma] Aguirre added that what Romney said next surprised her. “He said something to the effect of, ‘They’re radicals. There’s no talking to them. There’s no negotiating with them.’

Is it at all possible that Mitt is actually talking about the jihadis here?

If the question posed was the first one, the one that specifically mentions the jihadi threat, isn’t it possible that Mitt said something to the effect of, “No, because appointing a Muslim wouldn’t appease those radicals.”

I mean the only reason to appoint someone who understands the jihadis is if you want to negotiate with them. Mitt has never claimed that he would ever negotiate with terrorists.

And really, the sentence, if talking about all Muslims in general, seems really odd. Calling them radicals and saying you can’t talk to them can make sense if he’s a bigot, but why would he need to negotiate with members of his own cabinet?

Am I the only one who finds that quote odd?

This was my complaint with the last quote. It didn’t seem like a decent response to the question asked. It just went too far off topic for me to conclude Mitt was answering the same question that we’re led to believe he was asked.

Islam, unlike other formal religious faiths, is an integral way of life. The Muslim (“One who submits”) can allow no separation between his life and his religion, his politics and his faith.

Buy Danish on November 28, 2007 at 1:36 AM

I don’t mean to pick here, but I don’t see how that is different than Christianity. I’m an American and very proud to be so, but I will not follow a law that goes against my faith.

In fact, the New Testament is full of stories about Christians who were sentenced to death for precisely that reason.

Esthier on November 28, 2007 at 9:52 AM

1)…things haven’t changed too much. When your religion begins by preying on caravans and continues it to preying on shipping – there a bit of a pattern.

2)…I don’t think Jefferson envisioned the our shores ever facing the threat of sharia law – which is the unfortunate stated goal of some our fellow citizens.

Spirit of 1776 on November 28, 2007 at 12:18 AM

1) Yes, they continue today with anything that passes near them. Case in point, the ship hijackings near Somalia.

2) Thanks to our State Department’s preferential treatment of those from the Middle East. ( I observed several obviously Middle Eastern men and women, a “family” of sorts… one man, three women around his age, all with US passports, getting boarding passes in Jordan. One of the women had not even signed her passport, it was so new.

{It took me nearly two years to get my Thai wife into the USA, and several thousand dollars in fees.})

Texas Nick 77 on November 28, 2007 at 10:10 AM

I don’t mean to pick here, but I don’t see how that is different than Christianity. I’m an American and very proud to be so, but I will not follow a law that goes against my faith.

In fact, the New Testament is full of stories about Christians who were sentenced to death for precisely that reason.

Esthier on November 28, 2007 at 9:52 AM

Could you point to the Christians that was sentenced to death for political reasons in the Bible?
The tenants of the Christian faith is explicit (by Christ’s edict), we support the governing body. Remember the render unto Caesar line?
Also, the Christians do not have Iman’s or living prophets to tell us what to do. We have the Bible, and that is the check and balances.
Maybe the best example in the world of Christian beliefs is in Palestine. In Palestine’s, the killings and bombings are never done by the Christian Palestinians (a large segment of their people). An area festered in hate, and the Christians stand above it.

right2bright on November 28, 2007 at 10:25 AM

Could you point to the Christians that was sentenced to death for political reasons in the Bible?

How about all of them. Christ was killed for political reasons.

Peter was told repeatedly to stop talking about Christ or risk execution. He chose execution.

In China, it’s illegal to be a Christian, and because of that, ministers memorize their Bibles in case their’s are confiscated.

Yes, Jesus said, “render unto Caesar.” There’s even a verse that says, “obey the laws of the land.”

Even still, the early Christians were breaking the law by continuing to preach about a man the state had executed out of fear that the government would be subverted by that man. The only reason Paul was initially saved is because he was a Roman citizen by birth and was able to appeal his imprisonment on those grounds.

Esthier on November 28, 2007 at 10:40 AM

In Palestine’s, the killings and bombings are never done by the Christian Palestinians (a large segment of their people). An area festered in hate, and the Christians stand above it.

Roughly 6-7% of worldwide Palestinians are Christians. Maybe 2% live in Palestine and Israel. A peaceful people, they have been hounded by the Muslim majority. Ditto in Lebanon, and in Iraq. Christians stand above it, but have fled the area in droves for the christian west and australia.

JiangxiDad on November 28, 2007 at 10:44 AM

I wonder what the reaction would be if Mitt’s little question and answer session went like this:

Question – Would you appoint a Muslim to your cabinet?

Answer – I would consider it only if I could somehow be sure that his/her true loyalty lies with his/her country first and his/her religion second.

I think it would be very interesting to see the reaction to that exchange from Dhimmies and Muslims. Very interesting.

Zetterson on November 28, 2007 at 10:47 AM

Why pander in private, though? The point of pandering is to get votes.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 8:46 PM

At this point candidates may stuck on pander.

I think since Mitt is gaining ground there’s more interest in tripping him up or taking advantage of the slightest off statement.

Speakup on November 28, 2007 at 10:55 AM

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