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Iran’s secret weapon in case U.S. moves to attack: The Catholic Church

posted at 11:37 am on November 27, 2007 by Allahpundit
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I’m just trying to picture Hitchens’s face when he inevitably sees this.

Perhaps I’ll e-mail him the link myself.

Iran, which has had diplomatic relations with the Holy See for 53 years, may be trying to line up Benedict as an ace in the hole for staving off a potential attack in the coming months. “The Vatican seems to be part of their strategy,” a senior Western diplomat in Rome said of the Iranian leadership. “They’ll have an idea of when the 11th hour is coming. And they know an intervention of the Vatican is the most open and amenable route to Western public opinion. It could buy them time.”

If the situation heats up in the coming months, the question of exactly what role the Vatican would play could become pivotal. Says one high-ranking Vatican official: “The Iranians look to the Holy See with particular attention. It is born from our common religious matrix. This could be utilized to offer ourselves as an intermediary if the crisis worsens.” Among the potential moves: a forceful series of public appeals by the Pope, a Vatican emissary sent to Washington and Tehran, or a visit to the Vatican by Iranian President President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad…

[O]ver recent months, the conversations have centered on the looming showdown over Iran’s nuclear program. Says one key Catholic Church player involved in these discussions: “The Pope will speak explicitly only when the conditions call for it. One difference this time [compared with Iraq] is that we’re hoping the American bishops could speak out [against any attack plans]. That would be of great help.”…

Though Vatican officials say they are concerned about Iran’s development of nuclear arms, the pontiff is both doctrinally bound and personally inclined to pursue a negotiated settlement at almost any cost. In 2003, then serving as a senior Vatican Cardinal, the current Pope was firmly behind John Paul II’s opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. Indeed, many in Rome cite parallels between the current push from American hardliners to confront Iran and the walkup to the war in Iraq. “The Holy See hasn’t forgotten what happened in Iraq,” says one Vatican insider. “Seeing how that situation has developed, there is great, great prudence on the part of the Holy See. The judgment shown on Iraq weighs on the Iran situation.”

in case the Pope’s best efforts fail and God declines to intervene, Iran will turn to other options. In the meantime, follow the link up top and scroll down to the end for an interesting comparison of Catholicism to Shia Islam. Exit question per last week’s post: Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs? I’m pretty sure I know, but I’m also pretty sure our hawkish Protestant readers will have a more … nuanced reading of that particular passage.

Update (Bryan): Mahmoud is about five centuries and a Reformation behind, if he thinks this strategy has a prayer of succeeding. For starters, Bush is a Methodist, so the Pope isn’t even in his spiritual chain of suggestion.


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Comment pages: 1 2

Maybe Hank Steinbrenner could be the counterweight.

Attila (Pillage Idiot) on November 27, 2007 at 11:40 AM

I’m pretty sure I know, but I’m also pretty sure our hawkish Protestant readers will have a more … nuanced reading of that particular passage.

Aw Jeez, not this sh*t again!

Bad Candy on November 27, 2007 at 11:41 AM

Well, if the Pope’s agin it, I cain’t be fer it.

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 11:43 AM

excellent, i could go on for ages about the similarities between catholocism and shiism, very similar power structures and methods of juricprudence. Not to mention the shia rituals that overlap with catholic rituals, and the comparisons between austere sunni islam and shiism being similar to the protestant catholic split. i have seen both the ritual of the seven stations of the cross in Israel and the Shia Kerbela Passion of Hussain, both yes both i found moving. Not in a religious sense but for pure drama and emotion both are amazing spectacles.

zane on November 27, 2007 at 11:43 AM

Aw Jeez, not this sh*t again!

Yes, this sh*t again. I’m giving you evidence that Iran is going to try to use a major Christian sect to keep the U.S. at bay while it builds a bomb. Sort of important that we reach a consensus on what the proper course of action is, no?

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs?

Beats me. Peace at all costs will cost way too much.

Ordinary1 on November 27, 2007 at 11:46 AM

in case the Pope’s best efforts fails and God declines to intervene….

Sadly, this reveals AP’s severe lack of understanding of the role of the Pope.

If you are going to take pot shots, they should at lease be grounded in the realities of the church rather than your bigoted misconceptions of it.

Nessuno on November 27, 2007 at 11:47 AM

Yes, this sh*t again. I’m giving you evidence that Iran is going to try to use a major Christian sect to keep the U.S. at bay while it builds a bomb. Sort of important that we reach a consensus on what the proper course of action is, no?

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

consensus huh, how eurotrashy of you.

liberrocky on November 27, 2007 at 11:48 AM

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

I’m talking about the near inevitable wave of anti-Catholic demagoguery that’s gonna follow the post.

Bad Candy on November 27, 2007 at 11:50 AM

Sadly, this reveals AP’s severe lack of understanding of the role of the Pope.

Oh, I understand his role. You’re simply misreading my statement. I’m not saying the Pope is trying to get God to intervene; I’m saying if (a) the Pope fails and (b) God also fails, then the U.S. might attack. No Pope/God cause and effect is implied.

consensus huh, how eurotrashy of you.

Why? I’m not talking about international consensus, I’m talking about consensus among Americans.

Gonna be mighty interesting to watch this thread progress and see the ratio of comments objecting to me versus the ratio of comments objecting to the Catholic Church serving willingly as useful idiots for nuclear-armed Islamic fascists. Bring it on.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:51 AM

Rudy, would you care to comment on this?

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 11:51 AM

I’m talking about the near inevitable wave of anti-Catholic demagoguery that’s gonna follow the post.

I promise, I’ll try to follow this thread and stay on top of it. If I miss something, I’d appreciate anyone e-mailing me to let me know.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:52 AM

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:44 AM

As for what the course of action to take, we do what is best for us. We’re the US, we’re not under the rule of the Vatican.

Bad Candy on November 27, 2007 at 11:53 AM

So let me get this straight……

The same crowd that attacks Romney for being Mormon and Huckabee for calling himself a Christian leader is going to stand by and say nothing about the concept of the Pope and RCC having sway over American politics? Where’s all the outrage guys?

highhopes on November 27, 2007 at 11:54 AM

As for what the course of action to take, we do what is best for us.

Of course, but most of “us” is Christian and a big part of that “us” is Catholic and, presumably, they’re going to take Church doctrine very seriously in deciding which way we go. That was the point of those posts last week about the conference of bishops.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:55 AM

Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs?

No freakin clue.

I don’t quite know what to say about this. Iran’s ambition is to wipe Israel off the map. So, the church is going to try to buy the rogue Islamic state time to do so? Any efforts must be resisted.

Rudy, would you care to comment on this?

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 11:51 AM

He doesn’t exactly have the best relationship with the church.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:57 AM

I really doubt the Vatican is gonna get active in trying to stop us from making a strike on Iran’s nuclear weapons facilities, maybe a few official “we should strive for peace” type things, but the Church has been wary about getting too into politics, other than pro-life activism.

Bad Candy on November 27, 2007 at 11:57 AM

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:51 AM

I’m with you on this one, AP. As a Baptist, I’m more interested in looking for myself what scripture says on a subject, than waiting for the world’s oldest bureaucracy to tell me what to think. And you’re very right about the “useful idiots” label here. I mean, helping appease the muslims, whilst the muslims plot your downfall… how idiotic can you get?

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 11:59 AM

He doesn’t exactly have the best relationship with the church.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:57 AM

Amen

right2bright on November 27, 2007 at 11:59 AM

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:55 AM

I doubt it, on a parish level, there’s a fair bit of autonomy. It’ll have much less sway than you think it will. Why do you think there are so many pro-choice Catholics when the Church has been fighting for pro-life causes for so long?

Bad Candy on November 27, 2007 at 11:59 AM

I’m sorry, but as a Catholic, I will not stand with the Church if it sides with Iran.

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:00 PM

And, as a Catholic, I think people are overestimating how much influence the Vatican has over us. Granted it has influence over cardinals and bishops, but that’s also overestimated.

One prominent example would be Rudy. 3 marriages, pro-choice and goes to church every so often. I’d say about 50% or more of my church has been divorced.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 12:00 PM

I posted my last comment too soon.

I’m sorry, but as a Catholic, I will not stand with the Church if it sides with Iran.

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:00 PM

Nor will I.

amerpundit on November 27, 2007 at 12:01 PM

Why do you think there are so many pro-choice Catholics when the Church has been fighting for pro-life causes for so long?

A tangent, I know, but I don’t see how one can truly be Catholic and also pro-abortion. It makes no sense. Are these just the Christmas and Easter “Catholics”?

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:02 PM

We could bomb the pope and the Iranians.

Nope, seems too easy.

Defense Guy on November 27, 2007 at 12:03 PM

Of course, but most of “us” is Christian and a big part of that “us” is Catholic and, presumably, they’re going to take Church doctrine very seriously in deciding which way we go. That was the point of those posts last week about the conference of bishops.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:55 AM

I think you grew up in the CC as did I, in your expereince when did anything the conference of bishops matter to regular catholics.

liberrocky on November 27, 2007 at 12:03 PM

Hmmm… lets see…

Rudi is the only main candidate who is Catholic… and he’s pro abortion, pro gay rights, pro birth control, and has been divorced a few times…

So, just why do we think da Pope is gonna have an affect on our Foreign Policy decisions?

Romeo13 on November 27, 2007 at 12:03 PM

Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs?

Heh. When is the last time the Catholic Church was interested in the Word of God?

I’m Catholic, and I’m sick of the Bishops being used as mafia debt collectors.

Vote the way we tell you, or we take your soul.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 12:04 PM

Just to think, I was criticized on Sunday for characterizing the Pope as part of the dhimmi fifth column of Christians.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 12:04 PM

I think that the Church is a little schizo on this topic:

Here is a quote from the Catechism:
“if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor. If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person”

liberrocky on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

The Pope’s opinion on Iran will have about as much impact here as the Pope’s opinion on birth control.

brak on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

I’m non Catholic but pardon me while I utter a hearty guffaw and folks getting in a twist over what a diplomat and an unnamed Vatican official say the Pope is going to do.

Turn the other cheek and “blessed are the peacemakers” are not licenses to let evil exist and the Pope is not a fool.

Good Golly.

Taleena on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

zane on November 27, 2007 at 11:43 AM

If Catholics = Shiites
and
Protestants = Sunnis
then
Wahabbis = ???

BohicaTwentyTwo on November 27, 2007 at 12:10 PM

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 12:04 PM

To be fair, it seems to me that as pope part of the gig is to counsel peace. If he was up there screaming ‘bomb the bastards’, I might worry a little.

Defense Guy on November 27, 2007 at 12:12 PM

Not too long ago, Catholic bishops in Canada threatened Catholic politicians with excommunication if they didn’t vote against abortion rights. Not a single politician that was threatened did what they were told, and instead voted as their party told them to. So, obviously they were more afraid of the part whip than God.

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 12:12 PM

the Pope is not a fool.

Taleena on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

Are you sure? This is the same Pope who threatened to excommunicate any person who opposes amnesty.

He appears to be a complete moron.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

More Catholic teaching on the legitimate use of violence:

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

More

liberrocky on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

I guess the point for Catholics is deciding if striking Iran, and the method used, fits the “just war” criteria. Probably there will be differences of opinion on that.

mikeyboss on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

The same crowd that attacks Romney for being Mormon and Huckabee for calling himself a Christian leader is going to stand by and say nothing about the concept of the Pope and RCC having sway over American politics? Where’s all the outrage guys?

highhopes on November 27, 2007 at 11:54 AM

Romney – Running for President
Huckabee – Running for President
Pope – Currently employed, not eligible to become President

As a sovereign nation the Vatican will ask Washington not to go to war with Iran. France did the same thing during the run up to Iraq.
American Catholics will be split on this, just like they are on many other issues.

sweeper on November 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM

Wahabbis = ???

KKK???

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM

Are you sure? This is the same Pope who threatened to excommunicate any person who opposes amnesty.

Que?

sweeper on November 27, 2007 at 12:15 PM

You know, you’ve got to laugh at the conservative who are skeptical at most things the MSM reports except when it comes to the Catholic Church and the Vatican.

“The AP reported that about the Pope? Then it must be right!”

mtcicero74 on November 27, 2007 at 12:16 PM

Are you sure? This is the same Pope who threatened to excommunicate any person who opposes amnesty.

He appears to be a complete moron.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

What are you talking about??

mtcicero74 on November 27, 2007 at 12:17 PM

Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs? I’m pretty sure I know, but I’m also pretty sure our hawkish Protestant readers will have a more … nuanced reading of that particular passage.

Doctrine? I’d say just war doctrine, which isn’t in the Bible.

Unless you mean the peacemaker line from the Beatitudes. Yes, Peacemakers are, obviously, blessed.

see-dubya on November 27, 2007 at 12:19 PM

Who the hell cares? There aren’t a bunch of neo-con Catholics here worrying about the Pope supporting Iran, and that know they will have to fall in line and lick Ahmadinejad’s a-hole. The Pope ain’t gonna sway US policy. He can’t keep Nancy from aborting babies. Can’t keep Rudy from putting on a dress (and aborting babies). He’s gonna stop the US from preventing a nuclear-enabled Iran? Color me skeptical.

RW Wacko on November 27, 2007 at 12:21 PM

So how does that phone call go? “Crusaders! Help us out will ya’?”

Spirit of 1776 on November 27, 2007 at 12:23 PM

Catholics = shiites.. catholic jurisprudence = sharia … Dear Lord protect me from morons.

This is fairly simple. dinnerjacket sees this through distinctly religious glasses, and he assumes we do too. Therefore it makes sense to court the single largest religious influence in the West.

WitchDoctor on November 27, 2007 at 12:24 PM

1. Hitchens will have his hammered face on. It’s the only face that angry British drunkard ever has on.

2. Time magazine and Hitchens are equally reliable when they write about religion: they have no clue.

The likely response is that the Vatican will oppose any war as it usually does, a Republican will ignore it because they view the GWOT as more important and a Democrat will ignore it because it comes from the desk of the Roman Catholic Church (you know, they hate women because they think abortion is an abomination and won’t alow women to be Priests! /feminist idiocy). Besides, a Democrat would have already unconditionally surrendered to Iran at that point.

BKennedy on November 27, 2007 at 12:26 PM

The Pope’s opinion on Iran will have about as much impact here as the Pope’s opinion on birth control.

brak on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

Umm, actually I suspect his opinion on birth control will have a greater impact than his opinion on Iran. Besides, before we all jump to the conclusion that the Pope will side with Iran, shouldn’t we remember that little speech he gave that pissed off the Muslims.

The current Pope was forced to be a Nazi youth at one time, he knows fascism when he sees it and has no love for it at all. Nor does he have any love for Islam, when the Muslims called for his death or apology for his quoting of a centuries dead Emperor he did not apologize for his comments, he apologized for Muslims being murderous thugs, a fact most Muslims never caught on to.

If Iran is betting on the Pope siding with them, they are making a damned risky bet.

doriangrey on November 27, 2007 at 12:26 PM

Wahabbis = ???
KKK???

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM

imo exactly

zane on November 27, 2007 at 12:30 PM

From the Nov 17 2007 Call to Political Responsibility: 37. In making these decisions, it is essential for Catholics to be guided by a well-formed
conscience that recognizes that all issues do not carry the same moral weight and that the moral
obligation to oppose intrinsically evil acts has a special claim on our consciences and our actions
.

That last bolded part holds true, it seems to me, not just in terms of “political responsibility”, but in terms of life in general. I believe that any regime such as Iran’s is “intrinsically evil”, and therefore I am obligated to oppose it and and its very real attempts to gain superiority over our own way of life. And here is where, as a Catholic, I start to get confused and frightened for my faith. It seems that all too often, the Vatican and our local parish priests do not believe that regimes such as Iran’s are “intrinsically evil”, whereas I believe the evil is so incredibly obvious.

reine.de.tout on November 27, 2007 at 12:33 PM

see-dubya on November 27, 2007 at 12:19 PM

A blessed Peacemaker, indeed! I’ll take one of them at my side any day!

Frozen Tex on November 27, 2007 at 12:38 PM

Isn’t this much to do about nothing? An unnamed source and you guys go ape***.

tizzidale on November 27, 2007 at 12:38 PM

And for the idiot who keeps maintaining the Pope threatened excommunication for those who do not support amnesty. PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Give a source. This is not the first time you’ve used this charge.

tizzidale on November 27, 2007 at 12:39 PM

the current Pope was firmly behind John Paul II’s opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

And that impacted our decision or actions how exactly? So even if the Iranians did this and even if the Pope went along with it, we are still left with the big question…so?

If this is the Iranians home run plan, I think they need a new one or better yet, get used to the idea someone is going to take a swing at their nukes.

And as for the Pope’s influence over US Catholic thoughts and actions…how’s the divorce rate among Catholics? Or levels of virginity at marriage? Or how many Catholics use birth control?

I am guessing that Catholics who will oppose action against Iran are predisposed for others reason to take that position and will do so despite, not because of the Pope’s position.

Drew on November 27, 2007 at 12:40 PM

Unless you mean the peacemaker line from the Beatitudes. Yes, Peacemakers are, obviously, blessed.

see-dubya on November 27, 2007 at 12:19 PM

I think we both agree as Christians that the “peacemakers line” does not refer to the typical, left-wing, pacifist mentality which the liberals desperately try to make it out to be by importing false concepts onto the text of Scripture, and at the same time while ignoring the text of Romans 13, etc.

In our role as individual Christians, we should strive for peace in our individual dealings with unbelievers and believers. In our role as individual Christians serving in a capacity of the State (law enforcement, military) we are ordained by God to use force and violence because God ordains the function of the State to restrain evil, because men’s hearts are wicked.

The “2 Kingdom” view of Church/State taught by the Protestant Reformers has been defended here in the past.
Hillary Clinton herself opposes the “2 Kingdom view”, but nonetheless, it is still taught by Scripture.

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 12:43 PM

Of course, but most of “us” is Christian and a big part of that “us” is Catholic and, presumably, they’re going to take Church doctrine very seriously in deciding which way we go. That was the point of those posts last week about the conference of bishops.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:55 AM

Nah. Someone name me a group of Christianists that is less concerned about what the boss says than Catholics —
*God’s One True Church*. You can’t. They’ll do whatever feels good in great numbers, much as they do with respect to voting for pro-abortion and pro-gay politicians, etc.

As much respect and spiritual connection as I have with members of the Catholic Church, having been raised Catholic, I find many, many former Catholics in the Protestant church. The Pope is an inspiration much moreso than a leader to be followed strictly.

Great series of posts, AP; we need to be united on this issue or we’ll be defenseless against these whackjobs developing the bomb. They’ll be no threat to us physically, but I can think of few more dangerous international events than this. Europe better wake up soon.

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:48 PM

The Pope’s opinion on Iran will have about as much impact here as the Pope’s opinion on birth control.

brak on November 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM

Umm, actually I suspect his opinion on birth control will have a greater impact than his opinion on Iran.

doriangrey on November 27, 2007 at 12:26 PM

That’s what I’m talkin’ about.

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:51 PM

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:48 PM

Jailbones,

I was rooting for your Bears Sunday.

Devon Hester is the MAN!!

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 12:53 PM

I am sure this will touch off a firestorm but frankly, I will lose the last shred of respect I have for the Catholic Church if they do this. Jesus taught that any other religions coming after him would be FALSE. That is critical component of CHRISTIANITY.

If the Church ignores that, AND legitimizes Iran due to “a common religious matrix,” Then the Catholic Church is false.

Wouldn’t it be great if the Catholic Church grew and used a pair and followed their own Bible/tenets.

“The Bible plainly and clearly teaches that the only way to heaven is belief in the risen Jesus Christ. The apostle Peter said: “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12, NIV).

“Jesus himself said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me (John 14:6, NIV).”

Jesus plainly said that all other religions coming after him would be FALSE. Islam came after Christianity. Game set match.

America1st on November 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

Someone name me a group of Christianists…

Do we really need to be validating the invented words of Andrew Sullivan?

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

American Catholics will be split on this, just like they are on many other issues.

sweeper on November 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM

As would be American Protestants and whatever the anti-religous squad around here calls themselves.

I guess where I see the biggest difference is that this “sovereign nation” is strategizing how to get their agents in this nation to tell Catholics they are going to Hell if they support war with Iran. That’s more than a little hyperbole but France doesn’t have “bishops” covering every part of American soil.

While I think the concept of separation of church and state and this nation is out-of-control, that doesn’t mean I think that religious denominations can become quasi political parties and jump into the political process in American matters of state. That’s no more defensible than a political leader seeking to change public policy to coincide with a specific religious doctrine.

All that being said, I don’t think that the American Catholic clergy has the crediblity and respect to make much of difference in the overall debate. The RCC did much to destroy their reputation in the US by the way they systemically covered up their pedophile problem but it probably has been decades since the bishop/priest’s word was followed without question.

highhopes on November 27, 2007 at 12:58 PM

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 12:53 PM

He’s nuts. I turned it off with the Bears down 14, 9 minutes left, after dickhead Grossman fumbled again. Told my wife “they’ll score twice and win if I turn it off, but if I leave it on they’ll lose by 28.” There it is.

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:58 PM

I think it probably works both ways. heh

brak on November 27, 2007 at 12:59 PM

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

It’s derision, but your point is well noted.

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:59 PM

Remember, the Catholic Church (like many mainline Protestant denominations) is actually very liberal on many issues. We perceive the Catholic Church as “conservative” because of its views on abortion and gay marriage. But remember that Catholics have very strong “social justice” norms which lead many of them to favor strongly redistributive social policies, to oppose even just wars (”can’t we all just get along?”), and the like.

Also remember that America is not exactly the centerpiece of Catholic Church loyalty — American Catholicism is dying, and that the overwhelming majority of Catholics worldwide are in Europe, Asia and Latin America. So if the Church feels that appeasing the terrorists will only hurt America and may buy the Church some time in staving off Islamism in its Asian and Latin American growth areas, they might take the deal.

Outlander on November 27, 2007 at 1:01 PM

This is a non-event. The (previous) Pope opposed the invasion of Iraq and nobody cared. What makes you think the current Pope’s objections vis-a-vis bombing Iran would carry more weight?

factoid on November 27, 2007 at 1:02 PM

Wahabbis = ???

BohicaTwentyTwo on November 27, 2007 at 12:10 PM

Archbishop of Canterbury

Kini on November 27, 2007 at 1:04 PM

Delete this thread.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:10 PM

I want to be respectful and clear to my Catholic HotAir friends.

The “2 Kingdom” view advocated by the Protestant Reformers also prevents abuse by mega-church so-called Protestant pastors who violate Biblical principles by
dabbling in foreign policy.

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 1:12 PM

Der Waffen Popen calls on all Katholishe Folk in the USA to be on alert if their brethren in Iran are molested by the forces of BushHitler? Our military might have to go up against the Swiss Guard and the Amerikana Katholische Liga? Ach du Lieber, Himmel!!!!!

He was too young to be held responsible for supporting Nazi Facism, so is he now too senile to be held accountable for supporting Islamic Fascism? Islam Uber Alles?

Hening on November 27, 2007 at 1:14 PM

Vatican Promotes Lawless Immigration

Father Paul Marx, in the Buffalo area to address the International Mother’s Day Walk for Life in Niagara Falls, was the guest homolist at St. John the Baptist parish in the suburb of Kenmore… [He] said America is a dying nation. “I tell the Mexicans when I am down in Mexico to keep having children, and then to take back what we took from them: California, Texas, Arizona, and then to take back the rest of the country as well,” Marx said.

— The Wanderer, Minn. Catholic publication (5/6/87)

“The march of Latin Americans to the United States shouldn’t be understood as a wave of anger or revolutionary passion, but more as a peaceful conquest,” Father Florencio M. Rigoni, assistant secretary for migration for the Mexican bishops’ conference, told the Mexican newspaper La Jornada.

— National Catholic Register (11/16/86)

In supporting Latin American immigrants, the Archbishop is working to increase his market share. The Catholic Church has been struggling to maintain its membership as fewer American Catholics attend church. Therefore the Vatican looks to immigrants to keep its pews and coffers filled in the important American church. According to the National Conference of Catholic Bishops Office of Hispanic Affairs, since 1960 Hispanics have accounted for 71 percent of the growth in the U.S. Catholic Church.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:17 PM

Do we really need to be validating the invented words of Andrew Sullivan?

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 12:54 PM

Do we really need to be validating Andrew Sullivan period!

highhopes on November 27, 2007 at 1:19 PM

The Catholic Church’s War on Borders

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:21 PM

Gregor,

two absurdly obscure quotes from the 80’s and you think that supported your statement about the Pope and the Vatican????

bwahahahahahahahaha!!!

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:23 PM

Catholic Cardinals fight for illegal aliens

In February, Representative Tom Tancredo, a Colorado Republican who opposes illegal immigration, took issue with Catholic bishops, among other religious leaders, “for invoking God when arguing for a blanket amnesty” for illegal immigrants.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:24 PM

People who are asking the Pope “What kind of war would you support?” are barking up the wrong tree.

Matthew 22:15-22

BohicaTwentyTwo on November 27, 2007 at 1:25 PM

two absurdly obscure quotes from the 80’s and you think that supported your statement about the Pope and the Vatican????

bwahahahahahahahaha!!!

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:23 PM

Keep on laughing. Keep on sleeping.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:26 PM

And the Catholic Church is not limiting their agenda to the U.S.

The head of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor, has called for the government to consider an amnesty for illegal immigrants in the UK.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:30 PM

Gregor,

Pope John Paul II condemned “liberation theology” back in the 80s. I know many American bishops haven’t gotten the memo about that yet, but go to the higher authority.

mtcicero74 on November 27, 2007 at 1:30 PM

Jaibones on November 27, 2007 at 12:59 PM

I’m afraid my derision detector is a bit off today; I probably should have known better.

Deriding such milky loaded nonsense is always encouraged.

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 1:32 PM

Keep on laughing. Keep on sleeping.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:26 PM

Let’s see, two references from the 80’s, one from the NYT, which Pete King labeled as the left-wing of the Catholic Church in that article and a wikipedia link.

All that, and not single reference to a threat of ex-communication as you alleged.

Nitey-nite.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:32 PM

Do we really need to be validating Andrew Sullivan period!

I must admit to taking great pleasure in denying him page visits. He may be the only blogger I cannot bring myself to visit any more.

Kensington on November 27, 2007 at 1:34 PM

Verily I say unto you, a strong faith will save you. A belief in and adherence to religious doctrines will destroy you just the same as having no faith at all.

CliffHanger on November 27, 2007 at 1:37 PM

Pope John Paul II condemned “liberation theology” back in the 80s.

mtcicero74 on November 27, 2007 at 1:30 PM

Yes he did. Unfortunately, he lost that battle.

Here’s what most of us Catholics don’t stop and think about. The majority of Catholic Priests, Bishops, and Cardinals no longer come from Ireland or the U.S. They are now overwhelmingly from Latin American third-world socialist and communist countries.

Americans are being told how to vote, and how to live their lives by socialists and communists who have no concept of this country’s foundation.

When your Bishop tells you to vote a specific way … ask him how it’s worked out in his country.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:37 PM

Just to clarify something…

Catholic doctrine is not at all limited to the Bible itself. Likewise, there is much more to the religion than only the Bible, which is something most Protestants, including myself until very recently(as a possible convert to Catholicism) hardly ever really understand.

Church tradition and thousands of years of theological thinking by many great minds have produced doctrines that aren’t necessarily spelled out in the Bible. The concept of Purgatory is an example – not in the Bible but reasoned theologically from passages in the Bible and Church tradition, etc.

Protestants tend to have a Bible-centered idea of Christianity, thinking, as I did, that the soul source of the religious teaching comes from the Bible and our interpretation of it. They dismiss the idea of Church tradition and anything external to the Bible.

But these Protestants aren’t realizing that the Church and its tradition WERE the religion well before the Bible was ever assembled, and in fact, the Bible was assembled out of Church tradition and not the other way around well after Christianity was well-established. So we had Christianity through the traditions of the Church – and those who knew Jesus and then spread his Church – well before we had the Bible, so Church tradition was literally everything for hundreds of years.

So the Bible – formed at the council of Nicea hundreds of years after the founding of the Church from a bunch of existing books(they chose, through the Holy Spirit, which books should go in and which should not) – cannot be the only source of Christianity but should go side by side with the Church Traditions, since the time of Jesus, that Bible came from.

The Bible came out of Church Tradition – not the other way around.

daviddunn on November 27, 2007 at 1:39 PM

When your Bishop tells you to vote a specific way … ask him how it’s worked out in his country.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:37 PM

Gregor,

You have made interesting points in the past and present. May I make one contribution, though?

When your Bishop tells you to vote a specific way … ask him how it’s worked out in his country.

does the Bible teach that?

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 1:43 PM

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:32 PM

Are you suggesting the information is bogus, including exact quotes from Church leaders? Are you suggesting that these stories and the referenced quotes were ‘made up?’

Please … give me an example of anything from any of the articles linked that you feel is bogus, and indicate what you base that on. I could provide similar stories all day long, all including exact factual quotes from Church hierarchy, but you would most likely giggle and suggest that the date of the article somehow means it’s inaccurate.

Ironic screen name you have there.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:44 PM

Delete this thread.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:10 PM

Can’t you deal with the fact that the Catholic Church is insane on how to deal with Islam as it is about birth control?

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 1:47 PM

…the near inevitable wave of anti-Catholic demagoguery that’s gonna follow the post.
I promise, I’ll try to follow this thread and stay on top of it. If I miss something, I’d appreciate anyone e-mailing me to let me know.

Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:52 AM

Thank you (no sarc); we Catholics would really appreciate that. Especially we who try hard to show as much respect as is possible to other religions, even Islam, it’s nice to not be attacked repeatedly in return.

I’m saying if (a) the Pope fails and (b) God also fails, then the U.S. might attack. No Pope/God cause and effect is implied.
Allahpundit on November 27, 2007 at 11:51 AM

Sorry, but it’s just a bit amusing to hear you say “if God fails” as if WE humans definitely know best, and if God decides not to do what we expect (for a long-term reason we may not be able to see) then he’s “failed.”

inviolet on November 27, 2007 at 1:47 PM

Gregor,

you debate like a Muslim.

Your loose statement that you were initially called to task for was:

Are you sure? This is the same Pope who threatened to excommunicate any person who opposes amnesty.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 12:13 PM

Now, if you decide to return back to reality for a second, can you provide support for that statement? If I missed it, please point it out specifically.

Thanks in advance.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:48 PM

Oh Good Grief people! This is TIME MAGAZINE!! Do you think it’s spin or view is accurate here??

And it wouldn’t matter if Bush was Catholic. He would be under no obligation to adhere to the Pope’s wishes. (If he gave them, which I do not believe he will)

I don’t want to go into these theological discussions again, but suffice to say that there is Church Dogma that we as good Catholics are obligated to. But modern day politics IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

Rightwingsparkle on November 27, 2007 at 1:50 PM

When your Bishop tells you to vote a specific way … ask him how it’s worked out in his country.

does the Bible teach that?

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 1:43 PM

Believe me. I’ve done that many times. They immediately throw an obscure verse at you, such as …

If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother. 8 Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. – Deuteronomy 15:7

… and suggest that it indicates we must allow the entire world free travel into our country while providing free food, clothing, shelter, education, and medical to all.

They conveniently ignore Bible quotes which contradict this view, such as …

Cursed is he who moves his neighbor’s boundary mark.’ And all the people shall say, ‘Amen.’ – Deuteronomy 27: 17

“I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.” -John 10:1-3

It’s a hopeless argument and a waste of time. They have an agenda, and it’s not based on the Word of God.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:52 PM

Ever hear of ROMERO? Film made in the 80’s, funded by the Catholic Church telling the life of Archbishop Oscar Romero. You may have heard of him, he was a proponent of non-violent Liberation Theology. It’s only the violent strands that were condemned, and it’s use of Marxism. As for working for an equal distribution of wealth, the Catholic Church is doctrinally all for it.

The USCCB (United States Council of Catholic Bishops) is for amnesty. I’m searching for a clear declaration but until then this should do. http://www.usccb.org/mrs/oklahoma.shtml

The Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007 makes it a felony to knowingly harbor or transport an illegal alien and creates specific barriers to hiring illegal immigrants. It requires proof of citizenship to obtain certain government benefits and requires all state agencies and contractors to check the immigration status of all workers after July 1, 2008.

Both the Tulsa Diocese and the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City are adamantly opposed to it.

In late October, Archbishop Eusebius J. Beltran of Oklahoma City, priests and more than 1,000 laypeople signed a one-page “pledge of resistance” to the law, calling it “unjust and immoral.”

That’s from the USCCB page, with a clear slant toward amnesty. At the very least the Archdiocese of Oklahoma City is for amnesty, or against enforcing our nations laws. It’s clear the institution of the Catholic Church in America supports illegal aliens. That’s not what we need to be arguing about.

As for this, I’m not surprised. To my knowledge the RCC is against the use of preemptive force. While he may simultaniously condemn Iran the message will be something to the amount of, “We need to work for peace, and war isn’t the answer.” I’m sure he won’t consider a strike against Iran to be following Just War criteria.

What will this do? A few more radical Catholics may be swayed. The kind who go to church every Sunday. But remember that those same people will also know that the Pope considers Abortion to be a more important issue than the War on Terror. They may vote accordingly.

The Pope may be stronger than ever before when it comes to theology, but politically he’s been rendered weak.

Keljeck on November 27, 2007 at 1:55 PM

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 1:47 PM

thuja,

I originally called for AP to delete this thread for a reason.

It is baseless to claim that when the Pope expectedly calls for diplomacy before war, coupled with the painfully obvious truth that the Vatican has zero executive influence on US policy, that the Pope is supporting Islam. And while you are at it, just what position do you think the Church should have on Islam, currently, calling for another Crusade? Who’s fitting that bill?

Your other point about birth-control? So what, the Church is against it. Big deal. That fact alone alone does not sway millions upon millions of Catholics from practicing it anyway, with nary an example of ex-communication for doing so.

Religion and government in Islamic societies are one in the same, inseperable. The same cannot be said for Catholic or any religious influence in the US…end of story…

Delete this thread.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:58 PM

Keljeck on November 27, 2007 at 1:55 PM

Amen, brother. Everyone knows the Catholic Church supports amnesty, as they see it through rose-colored glasses, especially from the South, where they feel it will simply provide an influx of more Catholics. This is not news.

Out of touch on many pertinent issues the RCC is, and in the US essentially powerless, and rightfully so.

awake on November 27, 2007 at 2:04 PM

It’s a hopeless argument and a waste of time. They have an agenda, and it’s not based on the Word of God.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:52 PM

That’s why the number of members of The Hare Club For Men grows daily, my brother.

Hippitus Hoppitus Deum.

Hening on November 27, 2007 at 2:10 PM

Gregor,

you debate like a Muslim.
awake on November 27, 2007 at 1:48 PM

This is simply not true. Gregor provides fact after fact and you ignore them. Muslims don’t debate. They kill.

Anyway, you ask so what if the Catholic Church is against birth control. Well, because of Catholic opposition to birth control efforts to provide AIDS prevention methods to prostitutes in Africa have gone unfunded, as have efforts to provide condoms to gay men, who presumably aren’t up to activities that could lead to birth. Yes, it’s true virtually all Catholics realize that the Church’s birth control stance is insane, but it still doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a bad effect.

And we can only hope that most Catholics will see the Pope’s “peace” stance as similarly insane, but my own experience is that his idiocy here will be taken more seriously than his birth control nonsense. Here in Pittsburgh, the “peace” marches are a joint commie, Catholic production.

thuja on November 27, 2007 at 2:15 PM

When your Bishop tells you to vote a specific way … ask him how it’s worked out in his country.

does the Bible teach that?

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 1:43 PM

Believe me. I’ve done that many times. They immediately throw an obscure verse at you, such as …

It’s a hopeless argument and a waste of time. They have an agenda, and it’s not based on the Word of God.

Gregor on November 27, 2007 at 1:52 PM

Gregor,

Thank you for trying to be faithful to Scripture in this matter.

I think a Reformed “2 Kingdom View” solves the problems as noted by you above. I agree with JellyToast who made an accurate, helpful comment here on a different HA thread.

Liberals conveniently refuse to acknowledge that Exodus 30:15 and other biblical passages violate their imported, left-wing conclusions.

You seem to comment frequently on illegal immigration.
Same with me.

Personally, the war against Islamic Terror/Jihad is not a present threat (it may be a future threat) for me. After all, Islamic jihadists in Iraq or the Middle East are not causing hospitals to financially close their doors, but illegal aliens are. In my area, 2 hospitals have already closed their doors because of the negative effects of illegal immigration.

ColtsFan on November 27, 2007 at 2:17 PM

Which doctrine compels the Pope to seek a negotiated settlement at all costs?

Revelations?

Maybe the pope is preparing the ground for Armageddon. God, I hate religion!

FloatingRock on November 27, 2007 at 2:19 PM

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