…islamic culture is based on Tribalism, Shame and Revenge…Repenting is not part of islam. Revenge is.

I don’t want to take this blanket statement at face value (not without further reading anyway), but I have to tell you that I found this very concept of revenge vs repentance in this week’s reading. Consider vs 25-27:

Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain, when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned back retreating. Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Messenger and upon the believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers. Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The ‘messenger’ and his fellow believers ultimately won the battle of Hunain and for this, Allah poured out his calm, his peace and his reassurance to them. After reading this, I wondered to myself how winning a battle could bring the peace of God? As you said, our religious traditions base God’s peace to be a result of repentence and forgiveness, but this seems to be winning Allah’s favor as a result of revenge.

I think this is an important distinction. Thanks for pointing it out, ProgressOverPeace. I will keep an eye out for the concept of repentence vs revenge as we continue in our reading.

I do believe however, that you are keenly aware of the dangers of “going against the grain” and therefore refuse to put your name behind critical study of other, more dominant, religions.

Other, more dominant religions? You’re serious, I’m sure, but are you aware of how many Muslims there are in the world, and how many Jews? Of how many nations are members of the OIC, and how many Jewish states there are? Are you aware of how many countries are likely to become Islamic in the coming decades, as opposed to how many are likely to become Jewish?

You are clearly serious. But in reality you aren’t.

Now go through the entire Torah, Prophets and Scriptures and the only place you will find such optional wars is by King David and the king (none around for 2500 years) has to get approval from the national body known as the Sanhedrin. None before King David. None after. And no interest in the near past, present and the forseeable future, including prophesized Messianic times to come. Stay tuned.

Sure. For one thing, the idea that non-Jews aren’t allowed into synagogues. As a non-Jews who has been in many synagogues, I know from personal experience that this is absolutely false.

Robert, that’s silly. I already explained that was something I thought was true, but didn’t know, and even asked for help – which we recieved from Shyguy. I have never been to Synagogue because of this belief I held. I do wish to learn more, and it’s basically impossible in our society to learn critically about Judaism, but this may have just opened a pathway I didn’t think was available to me. It’s not something I even stated relevent to the conversation, rather just something random that was erroneous that is being used as “evidence”.

More seriously is your contention that there is in Judaism, or in the Torah at least, an “open call for the extermination of all non-Jews.”

This is something that is actually stated in the Pentatuech within Deuteronomy 20:10. It’s not something I made up. http://gwt.scripturetext.com/deuteronomy/20.htm

Finally, there is your personal imputation, that I am writing about Islam and not about Judaism not because one is used by violent people around the world to justify violence and the other isn’t, but because of an eye toward personal gain. I have many personal faults, assuredly, but if I were after personal gain, I could get it in easier ways than writing about Islamic jihad.

This is completely off the mark. I’m not sure how so many of the things I have commented on have been able to be taken so far out of context and misconstrued, but apparently this is a VERY poor forum for any meaningful discussion. I have stated several times that I have respect for your work, and your presentation abilities. (although truth be told, I’m less than impressed after this thread in your openmindedness, to be frank) I do not in any way, believe that you are attacking Islam only for your personal gain. I believe that you see Islam as a very real threat to civilization globally, and are earnestly working to help educate people to the dangers you perceive. I do believe however, that you are keenly aware of the dangers of “going against the grain” and therefore refuse to put your name behind critical study of other, more dominant, religions. Which really is a shame, because in my opinion you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
Thank you for your personal attention and for your time. I do appreciate it. I’ll bow out and give you the closing comments if you’d like to take the oppty. In any case, thank you again for the recommendation on your book – worst case you’ve made a sale :) so it’s not all bad!

Sure. For one thing, the idea that non-Jews aren’t allowed into synagogues. As a non-Jews who has been in many synagogues, I know from personal experience that this is absolutely false.

More seriously is your contention that there is in Judaism, or in the Torah at least, an “open call for the extermination of all non-Jews.”

Finally, there is your personal imputation, that I am writing about Islam and not about Judaism not because one is used by violent people around the world to justify violence and the other isn’t, but because of an eye toward personal gain. I have many personal faults, assuredly, but if I were after personal gain, I could get it in easier ways than writing about Islamic jihad.

There are others, but that’s enough.

Thanks again. Especially for calling this guy on his claim of the moral high ground after the scurrilous and baseless charges he has made.

I’d love to come back. Get someone to invite me!

Robert Spencer on November 26, 2007 at 2:10 PM

Robert, could you give me an example of these baseless charges I’ve made?

Yes, though again, not enforceable at present. Have you begun checking into the reasons why? Here’s a headstart, though you might have trouble understanding a few terms:

No, I haven’t yet.

So yes, a Jewish religious community will shun a homosexual who flouts the fact. There is not much legal action of any sort that can be taken against a homosexual at present in a Jewish court.

Oh, OK then. I was all wrong about things then I guess. I mean since the Jewish community you mention has progressed so far along as compared to those darn Muslims. I mean afterall, it’s OK to ostracize a person simply because of their sexual bias and make them an unemployable social pariah. I mean you’ve only had 3500 years to throw off the shackles of Leviticus 20:13 and you’ve come so far in such a short time….
This is a good example of what is happening here in America today actually. In place of physical violence, we see in use the threat of financial ostracism for not falling in line with the PC crowd. This is a clear example of the effects of religious edict affecting our daily lives and being used to control the populus. And the theme of falling back on the perceived moral high ground because physical violence is not employed.

Go right ahead and check out what you like. Most everything, from the Torah to the Talmud to the Jewish Prayer and commentaries on all of them are available in clear English in libraries and at Jewish booksellers. Who’s stopping you? Or Robert? (Hi Robert! When are you visiting Israel again? I would love to have my book copies autographed

I never said anything was stopping either myself or Robert from research Judaism. I said he would face ostracism for using that research to then critically compare Islam and Judaism. You’re internalising and projecting.

the Nation of Israel would have to be on a very high spiritual level to see capital punishment reinstated

Just to give you an idea of what I was hoping to see Robert begin doing by giving us a context of Islam in comparison to other religions, this is a clear example of what I was looking for. The way I was raised, for anyone to be high on a spiritual level would mean to forgive someone who is deserved of Capital punishment. The more in tune with God’s word you are, the farther away from Capital punishment you would be.

Heads up! The Jewish Sabbath is on Friday night through Saturday. Sunday is a Christian concoction.

Thanks for that! No wonder I can never buy any bagels on shopping night! LOL! I am kidding! But seriously, didn’t I say I’m not very familiar with Judaism several times now?

Yep, it’s the joooooooooooooooooooz fault.

Here you go again, saying I said something that I didn’t say. But I wonder if you are man enough to admit that the Judeo-Islam conflict has affected almost every single country on the planet? If you are able to admit that (doubt it) can you also admit that all of you owe it to the world to put your differences aside and try to work together for the betterment of mankind the world over? (doubt it)
You also deny the meaning of Deuteronomy 21:18, yet it specifically says that a rebellious child shall be stoned at the city gates etc. etc. You can nuance the discussion all you want, my original point that the two religions have violent edicts as their basis, and the two are very similar in them is unchanged and unchallenged as yet.

Well, I’ve given you a few links. I know it’s great to be spoonfed but I don’t have all the time in the world for this. Maybe someone else can take up the slack.

I actually never asked you and would not trust your writings anyway, thank you very much.

Who said that? Extermination of all non-Jews? I didn’t say that. Are you off your rocker?

For someone who claims to be an Orthodox Jew, you sure do seem to leave out a lot of the little things called facts and details… What about Deuteronomy 20:10? I’m not even a Jew and I’m aware of these things.

We have lived on that land for 1000s of years. We were there before the Romans, Christians and Muslims came. And we have been graced with the opportunity to return, albeit with great difficulty. You are witnessing the fullfillment of G-d’s prophecies.

Well, at least you are being honest and straightforward about this one thing and I really wish we could trust you to expand on this and go into some detail for the rest of us. This in a nutshell is the problem. You have people such as yourself who are as radical as the people whom we’re being told are the real radicals to be feared. It also give a glimpse of the racism and xenophobia within Judaism, in that you are basing your claim to the lands of Israel because of historical claims to the land from more than 1000 years ago. It’s no different with using bloodlines as criteria for immigration law, and/or for the differing treatment of peoples within Jewish lands.(Deuteronomy 23:19)

I’ll also let you enjoy a taste of Rabbi Meir Kahane on the subject of your disdain for the desire of my people to live in their homeland.

Actually, I have never commented on this one way or the other. And there is a valid claim to the ancestral lands which needs to be addressed. However, this is again another example of you hiding behind the anti-semite force field and trying to browbeat me into submission out of fear of reprisal for being labeled such.

Robert Spencer on November 26, 2007 at 1:30 PM

Robert, you are correct in saying that anti-semitism did not end Pat Buchanon’s career. However, what you insinuate is totally baseless, since I sincerely doubt that you and he are traveling within the same circles very much. Or more precisely, that you and he are deriving your financial support from the same groups of people.
I did not say there was no opportunity to make a career out of being anti-semitical, in fact, I would say that business segment has been on the upswing as of late.
In response to your view on not getting more mainstream newstime, I think it’s fairly safe to say that it is actually a positive reflection on you that you aren’t. You don’t usually present things in sound bites that will get ratings, and many of your positions require thought and time – both of which preclude you from achieving mainstream acceptance. Why I should give you any accolades after the insults you’ve directed at me, I have no idea, but as I said before, I have respect for what works of yours I’ve seen.

dingbat on November 26, 2007 at 3:32 PM

Thanks for the kind words, dingbat.

I only caught Desmond Morris on TV years ago, but liked him a lot.

Islam’s major problem is that it is the formalization of 7th century desert culture. It is very much an anachronism, just ill-suited to the modern world. One sees this very clearly in the simple fact that the islamic calendar is totally lunar, with the insertion of intercalaries being illegal. This calendar would be in conflict with the agrarian life, from its very beginning, which is an interesting point – as Judaism was based on the initial switch from nomadic to agrarian lifestyle, and is reflected in the solar adjustments to the lunar-based Hebrew calendar, Mohammed went backwards to the nomadic culture and the totally lunar calendar. A small point, but very illustrative of what’s going on inside islam and the potential it has for coexisting peacefully. Added to this are the underlying subcultures (arab, persian, ….) and you end up with a pretty serious and intransigent problem.

Your post of 10:51 AM. shines like a diamond in a billygoats behind!

Back in the day, when I was full of my youth and the moral relativism that infects so many of us at that age, I was directed to read “The Naked Ape” and “The Human Zoo” by Desmond Morris. This by a high school science teacher for whom I shall forever be in debt. Now, I’m sure some here will object to the secular nature of Mr. Morris’ work but I must say, it had a profound impact on me.

His observation in a nutshell was that people NEED to belong to something bigger than themselves. So obvious and yet so profound.

We all strive to belong to groups that share our beliefs, needs, whatever. More often than not, the tribe imposes it’s belief system on us.

Islam is, as progressoverpeace stated, “based on Tribalism, Shame and Revenge”. Sad but true.

Some tribes are spirtually more advanced than others. That’s just the way it is. I’m thinking of an African community here, sorry I can’t remember the name of this particular tribe. They were a very large group and had a shamanistic belief system. They practiced non-violence and provide sanctuary for others during the Arab, and later European quests for slaves.

I’ll come right out and say it, these folks had a better tribe, culture, whatever you want to call it, going for them and there destruction at the hands of European invaders was one of the greatest crimes of the last century.

There is a dark past out there that must be acknowledged. I would hope that KMC1, while reminding the Judeo-Christians of there faults can at least confront the current destructive path that the Islamic tribes follow today in comparison to their fellow travelers.

I’d love to come back. Get someone to invite me!

Robert Spencer on November 26, 2007 at 2:10 PM

Putting on my thinking cap.

Thanks again. Especially for calling this guy on his claim of the moral high ground after the scurrilous and baseless charges he has made.

I’d love to come back. Get someone to invite me!

KMC1 on November 26, 2007 at 12:47 PM:

Wow. Ask a couple questions, and next thing you know, you’re intimated to be “white racist trash”.

Don’t play innocent.

1. I suggested your misassumptions might be based on such trash, not that you are. Of course, if you feel there’s no difference between the two, suit yourself.

2. To requote from your earlier post:

I can totally understand your reluctance to dissect Judaism however. I also would be very scared to publicly criticize Judiasm and point out the similarities with Islam in our current PC climate. NOT that we need to fear being ostracized, shunned or unemployed, right? (wink, wink).

I’ll let others here easily deduct what your stated intentions are.

Moving right along………..

Even though we’re practically wearing our Underoos to go through airport security now, and our phones being wire tapped under the “Patriot Act”.

Yep, it’s the joooooooooooooooooooz fault.

Robert (and ALL the rest of us) has NOTHING to worry about if he were to critically examine Judaism and compare it to Islam… NOTHING AT ALL… NOT that he would need to worry about being branded a racist, or the label du jour “anti-Semite” or anything like that… “nudge, nudge”….And I am happy to report that you have no such preconceived notions yourself….Wow.

Go right ahead and check out what you like. Most everything, from the Torah to the Talmud to the Jewish Prayer and commentaries on all of them are available in clear English in libraries and at Jewish booksellers. Who’s stopping you? Or Robert? (Hi Robert! When are you visiting Israel again? I would love to have my book copies autographed.)

In any case, I appreciate your clarification on the matter. I guess I should be labeled an anti-semite and lashed 200 times for printing this in the press? Sheesh…

As you like.

There are plenty of Torah commandments which are capital crimes. Adultery, violating the Sabbath, murder. So? What about it?

Well, there’s a lot of things wrong with it, if you’re asking me. There are many such passages in the Pentateuch, homosexuality is punishable by death isn’t it? (Leviticus 20:13)

Yes, though again, not enforceable at present. Have you begun checking into the reasons why? Here’s a headstart, though you might have trouble understanding a few terms:

Capital Punishment and Curbing Crime.

That’s just a starting point.

Isn’t that one of the big jokes on HA about “if the Homosexual Libs only knew what the Muslims will do to them” etc, etc. And that is just one example along with the ones you provided.

While Judaism has always looked with disgust and disdain at homosexuality, I have already explained that practically speaking, homosexually prance around gayly even in the streets of Jerusalem in this day and age.

So yes, a Jewish religious community will shun a homosexual who flouts the fact. There is not much legal action of any sort that can be taken against a homosexual at present in a Jewish court.

Violating the Sabbath? Punishable by death? Really?

Truly. Again, not today and if you’ve followed the jist of the article I linked to above, the Nation of Israel would have to be on a very high spiritual level to see capital punishment reinstated and then there are difficult prerequisites that would have to be met just to bring the violator to court, let alone to reach a guilty verdict.

Again, if you’ve gotten the article’s message, it is G-d’s desire that we be on a level where there wouldn’t be a single individual Jew capable of commiting a capital crime.

Well, there goes the neighborhood in the U.S. since just about all of us have worked on a Sunday at one time or another.

Heads up! The Jewish Sabbath is on Friday night through Saturday. Sunday is a Christian concoction.

And again, how many Jews have you read about lately – or over the last 2000 years – that were killed for violating the Sabbath? When I last counted, it was zero.

What about Deuteronomy 21:18? Death for your children if they are rebellious? Really? Um….

No. Not really. Um.

You’ll find the relevant discussion on the complexities of convicting such a child in this article. Again, there are terms within which you may not be familiar with.

Numbers 5:19. It’s been said that this is this basis for the Salem witch trials.

I do not speak for Christian occurences.

I mean, come on. The fact that these are not practiced regularly is not my point. My point, is that I would like to have more knowledge on the matter so I can understand things better in the context Islam.

Well, I’ve given you a few links. I know it’s great to be spoonfed but I don’t have all the time in the world for this. Maybe someone else can take up the slack.

Or you can investigate more seriously on your own. The verse you quoted are the typical ones seen posted all over the web, removed from their accurate historical, legal and technical context, let alone rationale.

The Torah has commandments about subjugating those people of the 7 nations that lived in Cana’an at the time that the Nation Of Israel entered the land with Moses and then Joshua as its leader, when such people are willing to accept the rule of Israel

Well, I think the fact that there is an open call for the extermination of all non-Jews is something that we should all be aware of.

Who said that? Extermination of all non-Jews? I didn’t say that. Are you off your rocker?

This is the basis for Jews feeling entitled to the land they currently occupy.

We have lived on that land for 1000s of years. We were there before the Romans, Christians and Muslims came. And we have been graced with the opportunity to return, albeit with great difficulty. You are witnessing the fullfillment of G-d’s prophecies.

I’ll also let you enjoy a taste of Rabbi Meir Kahane on the subject of your disdain for the desire of my people to live in their homeland.

I wasn’t going to do this, but just one thing: I’m afraid to speak out about Judaism because accusations of antisemitism could end my career?

Besides the personally insulting aspect of this, it is arrant, paranoid rubbish. Ever heard of Pat Buchanan? Robert Novak? Walt and Mearsheimer? Jimmy Carter? Somehow accusations of anti-Semitism haven’t hurt them, or others like them, one bit.

Now you want a career ender? Try speaking out about the aspects of Islam that jihadists are using to incite violence and gain recruits among peaceful Muslims. Seen me on the major networks, or even Fox, lately?

HeIsSailing on November 25, 2007 at 10:39 PM

Just a quick thank you for your well thought out response. It was especially nice to see one devoid of ad-hominem attacks! Will wonders never cease?

Also, dissecting Judaism based solely on the Pentateuch and with no regard to the Talmud is erroneous and dangerous. This is why Robert does not only rely on the Koran but also on those who have commented on it and are widely considered authorities on it’s meaning and application.

RiverCocytus on November 26, 2007 at 1:00 PM

Which is precisely why I was asking for his help in the first place…..

KMC1, intimations of anti-semitism, even if they are out of ignorance, are rarely taken lightly.

RiverCocytus on November 26, 2007 at 12:57 PM

Um. Yeaaah. I think I knew that back when I agreed with Robert’s position that the critical study and comparison of Judaism would most likely end his career.

ShyGuy:

Thanks. I was not going to engage these ridiculous false charges about Judaism from KMC1 any longer, but I’m grateful for your clearing the air.

Robert Spencer on November 26, 2007 at 8:30 AM

Well, I had respect for you anyway.
Thanks for your support Robert, although I guess I wouldn’t expect you to stand with anyone who is looking to learn from you and asking for your help – IF they are stupid enough to be critical of Judaism.
Although I never actually “Charged” Judaism with anything. I asked some questions and stated some things that are my understandings (whether correct or not is the whole the point). Of course the fact that I did this in the same thread as I pointed out the racism and supremacy rampant in the Catholic Church, is of no actual consequence when it’s far easier to just label me an anti-semite and be done with it. Hmm… isn’t this precisely what The Left is accused of on a daily basis on HA????

Nudge, nudge. You’re full of false pre-assumptions. Maybe you are what you want to be.

Spill it out. Don’t hold yourself back. Unless you really think you know it all. So far, you don’t know, Jack!

Ooooo… Kkkkkk then…..You’re absolutely correct, Robert (and ALL the rest of us) has NOTHING to worry about if he were to critically examine Judaism and compare it to Islam… NOTHING AT ALL… NOT that he would need to worry about being branded a racist, or the label du jour “anti-Semite” or anything like that… “nudge, nudge”….And I am happy to report that you have no such preconceived notions yourself….Wow.

However, thank you for clarifying the situation regarding entrance into a Synagogue. My understanding dates back to my days in Sunday School, so it’s possible that I’m remembering that I was not allowed to go into a Synagogue because I am Catholic and maybe that was what we were told? In any case, I appreciate your clarification on the matter. I guess I should be labeled an anti-semite and lashed 200 times for printing this in the press? Sheesh…

This is wrong, too. But let’s not play with numbers. Let’s clear the air. There are plenty of Torah commandments which are capital crimes. Adultery, violating the Sabbath, murder. So? What about it?

Well, there’s a lot of things wrong with it, if you’re asking me. There are many such passages in the Pentateuch, homosexuality is punishable by death isn’t it? (Leviticus 20:13) Isn’t that one of the big jokes on HA about “if the Homosexual Libs only knew what the Muslims will do to them” etc, etc. And that is just one example along with the ones you provided. Violating the Sabbath? Punishable by death? Really? Well, there goes the neighborhood in the U.S. since just about all of us have worked on a Sunday at one time or another.
What about Deuteronomy 21:18? Death for your children if they are rebellious? Really? Um….
Numbers 5:19. It’s been said that this is this basis for the Salem witch trials.
I mean, come on. The fact that these are not practiced regularly is not my point. My point, is that I would like to have more knowledge on the matter so I can understand things better in the context Islam.

The Torah has commandments about subjugating those people of the 7 nations that lived in Cana’an at the time that the Nation Of Israel entered the land with Moses and then Joshua as its leader, when such people are willing to accept the rule of Israel

Well, I think the fact that there is an open call for the extermination of all non-Jews is something that we should all be aware of. This is the basis for Jews feeling entitled to the land they currently occupy.

Spill it out. Don’t hold yourself back. Unless you really think you know it all. So far, you don’t know, Jack!

And just to point out, I am not the one here who “really think you know it all”. This all came about because I asked for an opportunity to learn more. I’ve openly stated that I am certainly NOT a religious scholar by any means. But if it makes you feel better to insult away then have at it!