what you are trying to do, is justify, through political obfuscation, terrorist tactics in a Christian society.

KMC1 on November 20, 2007 at 3:23 PM

You have really gotten yourself confused now.

Perhaps when I said “Always use the proper tool for the proper job”, I should have said “Always use the proper tool on the proper fool”. It rhymes better too.

Again, you are not making any sense referencing the politics of the I.R.A.
I’m not in anyway backing down from my comparison, I’m just refusing to get dragged into the pseudo-political arguments you’re trying to turn the comparison into. In essence, what you are trying to do, is justify, through political obfuscation, terrorist tactics in a Christian society. You haven’t explicitely done so, but in the context that you are posting your position in this particular thread, I can only assume it’s because you support the behavior “for the right reasons”, ie NOT for an Islamic cause.

Wtf? I was just trying to say that it wasn’t a religious war in the same sense as jihad. There are other factors. I never even mentioned terrorist tactics let alone expressed support for them. KMC1 you need to remove the plastic wrapping from your cigar before you begin to smoke.

Now you’re dropping all of these overused labels to define your opposition. What do you know about aungus, or MB4, or their views and motivations? Let us discuss. Dont be so snarky.

Islam appears to be violent and bent on world domination. There might be a little cultural machoism intertwined in there…but hey, they’re pushing. What do you want us (the secular/christian west) to do in response?

aengus on November 20, 2007 at 9:30 AM

Again, you are not making any sense referencing the politics of the I.R.A.
I’m not in anyway backing down from my comparison, I’m just refusing to get dragged into the pseudo-political arguments you’re trying to turn the comparison into. In essence, what you are trying to do, is justify, through political obfuscation, terrorist tactics in a Christian society. You haven’t explicitely done so, but in the context that you are posting your position in this particular thread, I can only assume it’s because you support the behavior “for the right reasons”, ie NOT for an Islamic cause.
Additionally, this conversation is precisely the point I make, in pointing out that religion as a form of government is not a helpful entity, and in fact, it surprises (depresses) me that we as a global community, have not grown beyond it’s usefulness.
It’s precisely this type of supremacist nonsense that allows people of one religion to be unapologetically xenophobic, to the point of chopping off the head of a “non-believer”, or allowing 11 million people to be “stateless”, among other atrocities.

Good to see you’ve come such a long way! (Intellectually speaking, of course! LOL!)

KMC1 on November 20, 2007 at 7:08 AM

Always use the proper tool for the proper job.

Let me answer your (rather insulting, simplistic, diversionary) question, with a question.
Why is it, that within the exact same thread, people are so conveniently willing to dismiss the tyranny perpetrated under Christian edict “because it’s so long ago”, yet you’re more than happy to point to a figure from the 1700’s to throw in a red herring about my point comparing the terror tactics of a Catholic / Protestant nation? The politics of the I.R.A. were not and are not my point.

KMC1 on November 20, 2007 at 7:15 AM

It may be convenient to whoever argued “because it’s so long ago” but that’s not the point I made. You told MB4 to study the IRA as an example of contemporary of Christian religious warfare. But there are complex elements of Irish tribalism, Ulster-Scots identity and Marxism-Leninism. There is also the precarious double minority issue. It was you who was being simplistic and now you’ve backed away from your positions. I referenced Wolfe Tone because he was the father of Irish nationalism and a prominent Protestant not because he lived in the 1700s (which isn’t even that long ago in historical terms).

aengus on November 19, 2007 at 6:38 PM

Let me answer your (rather insulting, simplistic, diversionary) question, with a question.
Why is it, that within the exact same thread, people are so conveniently willing to dismiss the tyranny perpetrated under Christian edict “because it’s so long ago”, yet you’re more than happy to point to a figure from the 1700′s to throw in a red herring about my point comparing the terror tactics of a Catholic / Protestant nation? The politics of the I.R.A. were not and are not my point.

MB4 on November 19, 2007 at 9:46 PM

MB4 on November 19, 2007 at 9:51 PM
LOL!
Excellent points, all! LOL!
Spirited, well thought out debate! LOL!
Good to see you’ve come such a long way! (Intellectually speaking, of course! LOL!)

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 6:09 PM

BTW, too much use of “LOL” tends to devalue “LOL”, just as too much “You’re a Great American” tends to devalue “You’re a Great American”. You know, kind of like what has been done to “Have a nice day”. Are you Sean Hannity?

I just don’t understand how it is that with the level of education and communication available to the world today, people are still playing the religious warfare games. It would seem that we should all be able to sit back and realize how small the Earth really is, and that we need to all work together to help preserve our little slice of Heaven.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 5:10 PM

You sound like some kind of commercial.

I disagree with you completely.
I urge you to study the I.R.A. and the terror attacks perpetrated by them, for a direct comparison between an Islamic society struggling through political upheaval, and a Christian one.

You’re urging people to study the IRA despite your complete ignorance of the subject. Did you know they are a Marxist-Leninist terrorist organisation? Have you heard of Wolfe Tone?

dingbat on November 19, 2007 at 5:50 PM

LOL!
VERY well said!
Well, except for that part where you basically start making stuff up as you go along, and pretend to know anything about me, or my views, or what my motivations are. OH, and that part about thinking that

Religion rules man, man makes religion to rule.

being rather limiting is sort of funny since you then go on to say that we need religion (“even Muslims” – LOL!) because people are “better off for it”….. LOL!

Oh and that part where you seem to think I pretend to believe I am speaking for everyone……..
Oh, and that I have foregone conclusions………
Other than that, very well said!!! LOL!

Sounds like you don’t know where you really come from. You don’t speak for all of us. Plus you LOL! a lot which indicates to me that you have very strong forgone conclusions. You’re here to argue with the nasty, scared religious folks with this neat schemata in your head. Religion rules man, man makes religion to rule. That’s your baseline, which is cool I guess but rather limiting. Many, many people are better for having religion in their lives, even muslims, LOL!

Learn about what is a potential danger to you, and a present danger to millions of others in this world.

. Don’t you realize that you’re just making my point?
I don’t really care if it fanatical Jews, fanatical Christians, or anyone else. Trying to explain the “difference” lies in the percieved origin of the respective texts, is folly. I know that Muslims believe the Koran is literally the word of God, it’s a big part of why they are so far behind in intellectual pursuits today. (even if they do repeatedly try to blame the West for their problems) And yes, it is part of why some of them are so fanatical in their actions. However, to just repeatedly say that “we’re better than you are” and then sit there pointing at more scripture…. DUH. That’s a HUGE part of the problem with the Jews NEVER letting go of their History, and henceforce, continually being caught up in the same old Islam vs. Judaism violence. You can’t just sit back smug pointing at “your” book and expect everyone to come around to “the truth”. (MB4 notwithstanding of course, cause I knoooow he’s right LOL)
Furthermore, I completely agree on your very well thought out points that noone knows the real truth. None of us know where we really come from, or where we exist, and that is the real issue. I just don’t understand how it is that with the level of education and communication available to the world today, people are still playing the religious warfare games. It would seem that we should all be able to sit back and realize how small the Earth really is, and that we need to all work together to help preserve our little slice of Heaven. (pun intended :) Instead, we continually sit back and try to have seperate little Kingdoms and individual warlords, each adhering to whatever the proletariat is willing to believe in.
I mean, really, this isn’t rocket science.
Also, it would seem there is an awful lot of mud-slinging on this here website whenever ANY conflicting viewpoints are brought up. So, should I just slap everyone on the back and agree with everyone on every single point being made or face the wrath? Seems that way comrade……….

Am I missing anything? LOL.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 3:02 PM

Yes. A lot.

This is a stronger claim than Christians make for the Bible. When Christians of whatever tradition say that the Bible is God’s Word, they don’t mean that God spoke it word-for-word and that it’s free of all human agency — instead, there is the idea of “inspiration,” that God breathed through human authors, working through their human knowledge to communicate what he wished to. But for Muslims, the Qur’an is more than inspired. There is not and could not be a passage in the Qur’an like I Corinthians 1:14-17 in the New Testament, where Paul says: “I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius; lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)” Paul’s faulty memory demonstrates the human element of the New Testament, which for Christians does not negate, but exists alongside the texts’ inspired character. But in the Qur’an, Allah is the only speaker throughout (with a few notable exceptions). There is no human element. The book is the pure and unadulterated divine word.

In other words, whether you are a Christian or not, whether you believe in the divine inspiration of the Christian Scriptures or not, the fact is that those Scriptures do, undeniably contain a human element. No Christian that I know of will argue against that. However, that is not the case with the Islamic Quran. This text is not taken as merely inspired, but transcribed from the very command of Allah himself. And if you have taken the time to actually read along in the Quran, you will see what vast differences exist between these two beliefs. You will also understand why the Islamic ideology of transcription vs the Christian of inspiration has the potential to make Muslim adherants more fanatical towards their beliefs.

Remember, just my lousy opinion. But I think I am right about this.

You actually dispute that religions were created by man??? lol…. Seriously?

May I remind you KMC1, that right now, this very moment, you believe something that is wrong, misguided and false. I don’t know what that something is, but you do. So do I. I believe things that are flatly wrong. I can do my best to be as clear thinking as I can, but I can only go so far. So does everyone. Every person reading this comment is wrong about something.

So I am urging you to read and to learn along with us. Learn about what is a potential danger to you, and a present danger to millions of others in this world. That is the whole point of this series.

MB4 on November 19, 2007 at 2:58 PM

LOL!
OK. you win! Whatever you believe is the best and whatever you believe is what we all have to believe. Even when presented with a modern comparison you still stick to your guns and keep repeating the same things….

Am I missing anything? LOL.

The basic fact that religion of all kinds, was created by man as a way to consolidate power, is at it’s core, the real issue.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 10:38 AM

No, No, No!!!

The real issue is who it is that wants to part the rest of me from my head!!!

I urge you to study the I.R.A. and the terror attacks perpetrated by them, for a direct comparison between an Islamic society struggling through political upheaval, and a Christian one.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 10:38 AM

I urge you to look at the forest and not just an individual tree.

BNCurtis on November 19, 2007 at 11:36 AM

You actually dispute that religions were created by man??? lol…. Seriously?

The basic fact that religion of all kinds, was created by man as a way to consolidate power, is at it’s core, the real issue.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 10:38 AM

Proof of fact, please. Otherwise, dogmatic. I assert that mankind has the unique ability to twist/spin Truth to support his own needs/desires.

MB4 on November 19, 2007 at 1:23 AM

I disagree with you completely.
I urge you to study the I.R.A. and the terror attacks perpetrated by them, for a direct comparison between an Islamic society struggling through political upheaval, and a Christian one.
ANYTIME a man purports himself to be acting on behalf of “Him”, and begins pointing at scripture to justify his actions, is doing so out of selfish, fearful motivations. It doesn’t matter if it is Jews, Catholics, Muslims, shintoism, syncretism, or any combination thereof.
The basic fact that religion of all kinds, was created by man as a way to consolidate power, is at it’s core, the real issue.

KMC1 on November 19, 2007 at 12:26 AM

The good news is that Christianity has evolved a great deal of “cognitive dissonance”, particularly as concerns the Old Testament.
The bad news is that Islam has not.
Therein lies the problem.