Chinese sub pops up in the midst of a US carrier battle group

posted at 12:23 pm on November 10, 2007 by Bryan

This qualifies as bad news.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was “as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik” – a reference to the Soviet Union’s first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

US Pacific Command’s Adm William Fallon says the group wasn’t conducting anti-sub operations, but the fact remains that the submarine did slip past the group’s security screen undetected and popped up within firing range of the Kitty Hawk.

“It illustrates the primary reason why we are trying to push, to have better military-to-military relationships” with China, Fallon said.

“Because the fact is that you have military units that operate in close proximity to one another,” he said, warning of “the potential for events that would not be what we’d like to see.”

The infiltration took place off Okinawa, so it not only threatened the US, but also one of our staunchest allies.

(h/t Chris R.)


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I’ve been monitoring the Chinese miliary build up for about 12 years now. This is no surprise (and it is old news). When they surface under the Golden Gate Bridge then some will open their eyes.

Zorro on November 10, 2007 at 3:53 PM

Be sure to tell your son thanks for his service.

Bad Candy on November 10, 2007 at 3:25 PM

Will do. Thanks.

csdeven on November 10, 2007 at 3:55 PM

#1. This is an old news story being recycled by the Daily Mail. This incident happened in October 2006 and this year-old story is being republished with no updates to the actual story, and misleading language, for example calling the year-old exercizes “recent”.

#2. Bryan fell for it, evidently he didn’t know about or didn’t remember the earlier incident, and he didn’t check the story, so he went ahead and published this in an alarmist way, even though his second link is dated NOVEMBER 2006, which should have made it obvious that this was very old news. If Bryan DID know, then why was he passing this off as new news? I was very disappointed when I read this, because I thought at first “OH, IT HAPPENED AGAIN?!” and then wasted my time reading everything and noticing Bryan’s major mistake, and the disservice he did to all Hot Air readers.

Please, check your facts before you fly off the handle.

kaltes on November 10, 2007 at 4:14 PM

Although it is an old news story, it does reflect an ongoing national security concern. While we have been concerned, and rightly so, with the threat posed by the jihadis, we’ve been ignoring the elephant in the room–the potential danger posed by an increasingly sophisticated and better armed Chinese military. Ultimately, I believe the threat posed by a potentially hostile China to be the far greater threat and one that we would be foolish not to consider.

Matt Helm on November 10, 2007 at 4:22 PM

Submarines play this game all the time. There are countless times our submariners got so close to Soviet ships and subs that they actually took pictures (hull shots). To a submarine, EVERYTHING else is a target. Carriers get all the glory and the press because they’re so visible and are able to project lots of power through sheer intimidation through their presence let alone firepower should that betset loose. Submarines project their power in a more hidden way and they don’t get the press. I’d also remind everyone that there are few things bigger and NOISIER that a aircraft carrier so to a submarine, that’s a big and fairly easy target if it’s not being actively hunted. So should the Chinese wish to launch a surprise attack then sure, they’d have had the Kitty Hawk. However, if all the cruisers/destroyer/frigates are hunting plus all their anti-sub helos, P=3 Orions, friendly subs, etc. are looking then yeah, they could’ve most likely have nailed this sub before it got that close…. I hope.

Yakko77 on November 10, 2007 at 4:27 PM

I can imagine the collective “holy sh*t!” uttered by many individuals when this was discovered; probably because I just said it myself.

baldilocks on November 10, 2007 at 4:33 PM

The Chinese were not to smart let us know that we could not detect them.

The U.S. Navy was smart to pretend that the sub was undetected.

haha

TheSitRep on November 10, 2007 at 4:34 PM

Okay, this is a story that is a year old, guess I should have clicked on it but I do find it troubling. BTW, I agree with others, do your best this Holiday Season (whatever holiday you celebrate) to avoid gifts “Made in China” if poosible. We’re trying to look for toys for the keiki made somewhere else.

Catie96706 on November 10, 2007 at 4:34 PM

Welcome to the new Cold War…same as the last one.

Memo to State Dept: China is not our friend.

CP on November 10, 2007 at 4:43 PM

This is a HUGE wake-up call (but PC-weasels Bush and Gates are not listening) for a MAJOR PURGE of top Naval brass.

While they have been busy lobbying for passage of the US Sovereignty-undermining LOST (Law of the Sea Treaty), our top admirals have clearly been asleep at the helm when it comes to keeping the rising Chinse threat in check.

Moreover, the Admiral (William J. Fallon)now in charge of CentCom (when he was at PACOM) actually invited Chinese Navy Brass on board our latest fighting ships to tour them.

The only patriot with a national voice of whom I am aware that was outraged by this absurd invitation at the time was radio talk-show host Michael Savage.

You can’t make this stuff up

sanantonian on November 10, 2007 at 4:47 PM

The Kitty Hawk isn’t a ’supercarrier’. It’s a frickin old ass diesel rig
TheGoblinKing on November 10, 2007 at 2:32 PM

Kitty Hawk isn’t a ‘diesel rig’, she’s got 8 boilers probably 1200 psi. It is old though, we operated with her in 67 and I think in 69 too but memory fades. We ran plane guard and North SAR for her.

I was in basic nuke 65-1, you? Which prototype did you qualify?

OBTW guys it’s called “The Silent Service”. There’s a reason for that and that’s why you’re never going to hear what really happened with this sub or what the navy knew. The submarine mafia will insure that. One question keeps jumping out at me though. Why in the world would a sub skipper pop to the surface and let his potential ememy know his capability. Usually you try to keep that stuff secret so when the time comes you get the first shot. It’s always better if your enemy doesn’t know what you are capable of.

Oldnuke on November 10, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Memo to State Dept: China is not our friend.

State Department? Well, okay: You are correct.

But…. How about a freaking memo to President Bush and SecDef Gates, as well?

sanantonian on November 10, 2007 at 4:49 PM

“It illustrates the primary reason why we are trying to push, to have better military-to-military relationships” with China, Fallon said.

“Because the fact is that you have military units that operate in close proximity to one another,” he said, warning of “the potential for events that would not be what we’d like to see.”

Exactly the wrong lesson to draw, Admiral.

sanantonian on November 10, 2007 at 4:51 PM

kaltes on November 10, 2007 at 4:14 PM

So many know-it-alls in one place. I feel like a truther.

The Race Card on November 10, 2007 at 5:04 PM

Why in the world would a sub skipper pop to the surface and let his potential enemy know his capability. Usually you try to keep that stuff secret so when the time comes you get the first shot. It’s always better if your enemy doesn’t know what you are capable of.

Oldnuke on November 10, 2007 at 4:47 PM

One reason and only one reason. Somebody scared that sub to the surface.

doriangrey on November 10, 2007 at 5:26 PM

“According to the Nato source,”

Chinese sub just snuck right in???
C’Mon folks, give it a rest. Do you really think we would tell the truth about how and when we saw their sub? Not a chance.
.
Now the “Song subs” think they can sneak around…MUCH better for us.

shooter on November 10, 2007 at 5:30 PM

yeah, China ain’t fu**in’ around

Opinionnation on November 10, 2007 at 5:34 PM

Welcome to the new Cold War…same as the last one.

Memo to State Dept: China is not our friend.

CP on November 10, 2007 at 4:43 PM

Very true. Terrorism is no threat at all compared to China.

Maxx on November 10, 2007 at 5:40 PM

Maxx on November 10, 2007 at 5:40 PM

Very true. Terrorism is no threat at all compared to China La Raza’s Reconquista.

Gregor on November 10, 2007 at 5:47 PM

doriangrey on November 10, 2007 at 12:51 PM

I have to agree….any one remember the vaunted “missile gap” that was played up for years after there was any plausible calculus to support the idea. It worked very well to keep our military funded and eventually drove the Soviets into the ditch.

TBinSTL on November 10, 2007 at 5:51 PM

This is an over reaction. IF we were at war with a nation like China with submarine capabilities, the destroyers and accompanying US Navy Subs would have at least had “passive” radar on and would have detected a diesel powered sub. Unless they are looking in a half-ass manner at least, any sub can pass another ship with ease.

zerodamage on November 10, 2007 at 6:08 PM

I don’t have time to read all the comments, so maybe someone else mentioned it already; but here is my take:

I’ll be shocked (and dismayed) it the story is completely true. I’m hoping that they knew the sub was there long before it came in range, and this story is just a bit of ‘strategery’ on our part.

LegendHasIt on November 10, 2007 at 6:10 PM

Easy scenario here folks…

Diesal boat was “loitering” at silent running turning stearage way in semi shallow waters.

We were NOT running ASW ops, so no helos or P-3s up… no Active Sonar going… just passive.

She just sat there and let the battle group pickets run over her… waited for the Carrier, then Pop’d to embarrass the USN…

In a real engagement… helos would be up… pickets would be active… our sub would be there… and we wouldn’t be taking predictable courses through semi shallow water.

This was like THEY were playing tag… and we were just walking along… not playing…

Old news… and NO big deal…

Oh… and USN (Ret)… worked Destroyers… and worked at COMSUBPAC for 3 years…

Romeo13 on November 10, 2007 at 6:36 PM

I’ll throw my lot in with those who acknowledge that for Occam’s Razor to work in this instance, you have to know how things are done on the inside, not just by what is reported in the press.

Some have hammered doriangrey because he believed that the tool used was a Virginia-class sub; one that officially had not completed sea trials at the time. Others have used white world reports of which sub is assigned to a carrier battle group to justify their claims.

But what these people forget is, when it comes to the US military, there really is a “secret life behind things”, as it were. Despite the valiant efforts of the leakers in Congress, once in a while, something really does remain “secret”. Here’s a hint: while some in the three-letter agencies (CIA, NSA, etc.) may think it’s their sworn duty to “blow the lid off” certain classified operations conducted by their employers, how many times has the DoD shown its hand in the last six years? Personally, I don’t recall much getting out in public.

Occasionally we get this “secret” thing right: in 1989, two airframes were first revealed to the public by Bush 41 – the F-117A and B-2. Keep in mind, though, that the F-117A became operational in 1983, and the B-2 had been under development since the time of the Carter administration. Those two assets were kept in “deep black” for years.

Even now, years after the SR-71 was retired, there are still certain details about that plane’s operational envelope that are classified. It’s immediate predecessor, the A-12, was first flown in 1964.

So no, I don’t think we know everything, and to jump to conclusions based on a press report alone is foolhardy. Yet also consider the lemming mentality that is both the MSM and the US Congress these days.

What I do know is, regardless of what anyone may be led to believe by that press report, that there was no strategic reason for the Chinese sub to surface in the middle of a US Carrier Group. None. What may appear at first blush as a “look at us, we could have kicked your a$$ if we wanted to” move (which makes for great press, but actually pisses away said advantage the moment you show your hand), in light of military doctrine, looks more like a move borne of desperation on behalf of the Chinese skipper. Yes, I believe something forced his hand, and that was the reason why he surfaced where he did. Was it a Virginia-class sub? Don’t know. But whatever it was, rest assured that he got caned (perhaps literally) by his top brass when he returned to the motherland.

Another thing I know about the DoD is, having been starved for budgets by the Clinton administration (which got a free ride off of the Reagan buildup and subsequently saw its force reduced by almost half over that eight years), no senior commander would miss an opportunity to use an incident like this to hint that Congress might wish to loosen the purse strings a bit more.

Finally, no flag officer worth his rank is going to let on anything more than he thinks you need to know.

As for doriangrey, his father had a unique perspective, which he has shared in comments on previous posts. A similar one, from a submariner’s view, can be found in the book Blind Man’s Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage. It’s a fascinating read.

Food for thought…

Wanderlust on November 10, 2007 at 6:42 PM

Good thing we discoverd this now and not later.

allrsn on November 10, 2007 at 6:46 PM

As for doriangrey, his father had a unique perspective, which he has shared in comments on previous posts.

Wanderlust on November 10, 2007 at 6:42 PM

Your right… Dorians father probably does have a unique perspective… or maybe not so unique… (USN)Ret here.

But just because my Mom’s an English teacher… it doesn’t mean I can spell.

Romeo13 on November 10, 2007 at 6:50 PM

Some have hammered doriangrey because he believed that the tool used was a Virginia-class sub; one that officially had not completed sea trials at the time. Others have used white world reports of which sub is assigned to a carrier battle group to justify their claims.

Wanderlust on November 10, 2007 at 6:42 PM

We hammered doriangrey because his claims were factually inaccurate. Period. He posted information that was completely false in order to support his claims. That’s it.

As for myself, I have no way of knowing if there were any U.S. subs chasing the Chinese Sub. The problem is that Doriangrey doesn’t know what happened any more than we do, but he posts his “theory” as fact. I have no way of knowing if the story is accurate. But I DO know that the information Doriangrey continues to post to support his “theory” is completely false and several posts in this thread have shown that to be true.

Gregor on November 10, 2007 at 6:53 PM

do your best this Holiday Season (whatever holiday you celebrate) to avoid gifts “Made in China” if poosible. We’re trying to look for toys for the keiki made somewhere else.

Catie96706 on November 10, 2007 at 4:34 PM

We’ll be doing the same. I don’t know if it’s helpful at all, my uncle spent 3 yrs in Taiwan recently and holds the opinion that products made in Taiwan are superior to Chinese.

4shoes on November 10, 2007 at 7:46 PM

Any communist country with a ton of cannon fodder to throw at us, on land and able to sneak up on our carrier groups, at sea, is a genuine threat and can’t be taken lightly. China IS sophisticated, where it counts, and they REALLY hate our ‘meddling’ in their attempts to enslave Taiwan.

Rugged Individual on November 10, 2007 at 8:02 PM

eh, who snuck up on who? lol.
If China could fight and win right now, why dont they?

johnnyU on November 10, 2007 at 8:17 PM

Yes, I believe something forced his hand, and that was the reason why he surfaced where he did. Was it a Virginia-class sub? Don’t know. But whatever it was, rest assured that he got caned (perhaps literally) by his top brass when he returned to the motherland.

I agree. Being seen on the surface while on patrol is a major embarrassment and generally a career limiting move for a sub driver.

It is common practice in peacetime when finding a submarine that is not one of yours in an area where you don’t want it to be to ping the living crap out of it with sonar until it surfaces. The surfacing is a sort of way of saying “uncle”. A sub crew generally can’t stand the pinging for long. They eventually surface or lose their hearing.

crosspatch on November 10, 2007 at 9:03 PM

Yawn… Old news. I love stories like this being rehashed and treated as new news. Time to go back to cutting my toenails.

Hammerhead on November 10, 2007 at 9:07 PM

I hope the sub didn’t get too close to our sailors–they might have been contaminated by the sub’s lead-tainted paint.

jgapinoy on November 10, 2007 at 9:50 PM

I could be wrong,but didn’t the Chinese get the the ability
through the “CLINTONS” to read and monitor traffic communications on American Navy ships,wasn’t it a spy who got their hands on the Satelite codes!

canopfor on November 10, 2007 at 9:51 PM

No, it was during the Clinton years that they got the plans to all of our nuclear warheads.

crosspatch on November 10, 2007 at 10:09 PM

TheGoblinKing on November 10, 2007 at 2:32 PM

The Kitty Hawk can handle the f-18′s, when it was stationed at San Diego many years ago I had the honor of being on board and watching them launch and retrieve the f-18′s.
The Kitty Hawk I believe was the largest non nuclear carrier built by us, a fantastic ship for its day.

http://www.fotosearch.com/UNY101/u16804258/
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php/photo/18954/limit/recent

right2bright on November 10, 2007 at 10:37 PM

Add on: The Kitty Hawk is not an offensive ship now, its number one purpose is disaster and humanitarian relief. It may have planes on it for defensive purposes, or recon, but it would not be considered an “offensive weapon”. I am sure all of the countries know this. There is no reason it would be concerned about being approached by an “enemy sub”.

right2bright on November 10, 2007 at 10:46 PM

right2bright on November 10, 2007 at 10:37 PM

One of my brothers did his enlistment on the Kitty, he was a cook. Been on it several times myself.

doriangrey on November 10, 2007 at 11:08 PM

Very true. Terrorism is no threat at all compared to China.

Yes but China is no threat at all compared to jihad (of which terrorism is only one aspect and not even the most important).

aengus on November 10, 2007 at 11:30 PM

This makes me want to go out and buy a good naval simulation game and sink some chicom subs. Anyone know of any good ones?

boomer on November 10, 2007 at 11:54 PM

this is far worse than bad news, it is a clearly intended provocation by China.

doriangrey on November 10, 2007 at 12:30 PM
Sorry, I beg to differ. After the initial shock, this could turn out to be GOOD news, because now we know what we don’t know, and what it is that needs to be done. I think it’s better to have discovered this now than perhaps later.

reine.de.tout on November 10, 2007 at 2:09 PM

And just think, the Chi-coms sold a few of these same boats to their buddies, the Iranians. Scary to think of what those nutjobs will do with this capability.

Texas Nick 77 on November 11, 2007 at 5:10 AM

Someone remind me how and when the Chinese acquired the technological sophistication to build those non-cavitating screws that are so very quiet.

MCPO Airdale on November 10, 2007 at 2:55 PM

I’d wager it was during the klintonista regime.

Texas Nick 77 on November 11, 2007 at 5:19 AM

For those who haven’t read this one yet, it is a very good read. Brought back some scary memories for me.

http://www.amazon.com/Blind-Mans-Bluff-Submarine-Espionage/dp/1891620088

Texas Nick 77 on November 11, 2007 at 5:38 AM

Oldnuke,

I was in basic nuke 65-1, you? Which prototype did you qualify?

Wow! I am humbled by your saltiness!

I was in class 8807 in Orlando and sailed the prototype seas with the USS Tullibee in Connecticut (S1-C), ET1/RO on Enterprise, 1989-1993, lpo 1-plant but I was originally a 3-planter. Did 1 westpac and rode that bad boy into a hellified refuelling/refit for 3 years after in Newport News.

Were you ever on Enterprise?

TheGoblinKing on November 11, 2007 at 6:34 AM

This is not the first time this has happened. China is building a large fleet of silent, diesel subs that we can’t detect. When we deign something that can pick them up, we’ll have it manufactured in China and wonder why it contains date rape drug as lubricant.

China has been engaging in a quiet war with the US and practicing tactics at sea and in space while we scratch our heads and figure we need better relations. Wake up.

Hening on November 11, 2007 at 8:19 AM

Questions:

If the Navy HAD, in fact, detected the sub approaching, would they have admitted it? Should they?

If you were the group commander, how would you react to a likely Chinese sub approaching? Should you react at all?

__________

Whether the CIC was surprised or not, I’m willing to bet the story would have been the same. What you see in CIC stays in CIC. I’ve known a few sonarmen. They seldom tell true sea stories.

All this story tells us is what the Chinese want us to think about their capabilities without giving anything away on our side.

Random Numbers (Brian Epps) on November 11, 2007 at 9:27 AM

Were you ever on Enterprise?

TheGoblinKing on November 11, 2007 at 6:34 AM

Qualified on A1-W, NRTS Idaho. Yogi Kaufmann was the skipper he was relieved by a guy named Nicholson…you may have heard of him he did something on some boat named The Naughty Lass or something like that :-) I rode the DLG(N)25 as opposed to CGN :-) for about three years. Was there for the Big E’s fire. We assisted till they got it under control and then looked for survivors for three days. Got out in 70 but stayed in the game (civilian nuke) till 2000. Same people just made more money, didn’t get underway and no one shot at us.

Been out for a while but seems to me that this Chinese sub drill is a bit overblown. In the day we’d be laughin’ our a$$es off about it and how much the idiots in the press were making of it. They do love a good gloom and doom sea story, and of course they never learned to tell the difference between a sea story and a fairy tale. Looks like that holds true today.

Oldnuke on November 11, 2007 at 10:08 AM

There are pieces of good information strung throughout this thread which may give a good explanation for what happened.

As I recall from the original accounts that reported this incident, one of the biggest surprises was that the Chinese sub was operating where it was. Their diesel-electric boats usually operate much closer to home than this one was. This raises the possibility that we didn’t detect it because we weren’t expecting it to be there, and accordingly weren’t looking for it. Overconfidence on the Navy’s part, but better to learn unpleasant lessons now than when the actual shooting begins.

Another possibility is that we knew it was around. But what can you do about it? The exercise was held in international waters, not territorial waters, so who are we to say where another country’s sub can or can’t go in this situation? That other nations, especially the Russians, shadow our carrier task forces is nothing new. The Kursk, for example, was doing just that with one of our carriers in the Mediterranean during the Serbia-Kosovo conflict. During the Cold War, Soviet “fishing trawlers” sprouting a forest of antennae and sailing in close proximity to the CV battle groups was such a common sight that the old joke had the battle group commander ordering one of them to “take its assigned station.”

Besides, if we knew the Chinese sub was there or if we didn’t, does anyone think we’d say anything about the true situation? Why reveal the real measure of our ASW capabilities – strengths as well as weaknesses – to a potential enemy before we have to? This may well be one of those, “It’s what you don’t read in the papers that’s significant” kind of events.

Connect the dots that other posters have put up, and the scenario could have been:

1. Chinese diesel-electric sub operates where such subs haven’t been known to operate before. Sub performs the usual role of a diesel-electric boat, that of a hard-to-detect “barely-mobile underwater mine” cruising underwater at 5 knots or less on or near the path of the battle group and hoping to remain undetected until the carrier sails into weapons range.

2. Sadly, after the Cold War the USN isn’t as efficient an ASW machine it once was, illustrated by the retirement without a replacement of the S-3 Viking from carrier air wings and the reduction in the numbers of P-3 Orion land-based ASW aircraft. Mix that with a little bit of overconfidence, and we could’ve set ourselves up for a surprise.

3. If we had detected the Chinese sub, we may have kept tight lips about it because we wanted to hide the true nature of our ASW capabilities from the Chinese. Let them go ahead and snicker about how they “humbugged” us, as long as we’d know that in a war we’d have had the first-and-last laugh (and as importantly, the Chinese remain ignorant of that reality).

I think that the Navy knows a lot more about this incident than it has let on, and for good reason. Don’t talk about your weaknesses in front of a potential enemy, while at the same time keeping them in the dark your strengths. Hopefully they’re addressing the weaknesses and keeping the strengths under wraps.

Spurius Ligustinus on November 11, 2007 at 12:46 PM

It seems strange that anyone is ‘dumbstruck’. I mean after all, a Chinese sub snuck up on one almost a year ago.

Kevin M on November 11, 2007 at 1:16 PM

Sneaky little b*st*rd.
Testin’ our perimeter eh’, violating our immediate seaspace.
Does the USNavy do that to them, during their exercises?(actually i hope they do… but, you know, from a distance)
Remember y’all linked that google map shot of that super secret chinese submarine with the two guys out on deck readin the owners manual?
USNavy still rules the seas!
GO NAVY!!!

christophercube on November 11, 2007 at 2:48 PM

Diesel-electric subs are quite a threat, given that some of the newer models built in Europe and elsewhere are quieter than nuke subs. But this should be old news to the US Navy, in that I first heard about this issue on a Discovery Channel or History Channel program a couple of years back.

doufree on November 11, 2007 at 6:17 PM

The new quieter models, that is.

doufree on November 11, 2007 at 6:18 PM

Ever wonder if Chinese subs have a melamine problem or two?

BL@KBIRD on November 11, 2007 at 8:57 PM

Someone remind me how and when the Chinese acquired the technological sophistication to build those non-cavitating screws that are so very quiet.

MCPO Airdale on November 10, 2007 at 2:55 PM

I’d wager it was during the klintonista regime.

Texas Nick 77 on November 11, 2007 at 5:19 AM

As I said before, it was long before Bubba defiled the Oval office that the Chi-coms got this technology.

I read an article years ago about Jimmah allowing the sale of computer milling machines to China. At least one of those machines were sold to the Russians, and the US Navy was PO’d at Russian subs suddenly being very quiet, because the screws were being milled from a single block of bronze rather than how they used to build them.

Stupid defeatocrats…helping the enemy for years.

91Veteran on November 11, 2007 at 10:43 PM

…of course they never learned to tell the difference between a sea story and a fairy tale. Looks like that holds true today.

Oldnuke on November 11, 2007 at 10:08 AM

Its very easy to tell the difference:

A fairy tale starts off with, “Once upon a time…”

A sea story starts off with, “This ain’t no shi’ite…”

Texas Nick 77 on November 12, 2007 at 6:15 AM

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