This is why I like to combine great tweeters, woofer, and even a subwoofer in back….

I’ve never claimed it’s difficult to believe that you’ll go to a perfect place in another universe if you read and follow a book.

Nonfactor on October 31, 2007 at 5:27 PM

You’re certainly not talking about Christianity here.

it supports a concept of god; you’ve taken that concept and used your bias to assume it’s the Christian one.

We are making progress!!

You are right: it supports the concept of god, or Theism.

I have taken that concept of God, or Theism, and applied it to Christian Theism because of the following reasons:

—there are conceptual difficulties with other broadly theisic worldviews, causing me to disavow them.
—example: the Islamic doctrine of abrogation leads me to reject Islamic concept of God
—empirically, the Resurrection of Jesus Christ did occur, and there are non-biblical references and sources why I believe that to be true.

In short, the Argument from Reason shows the impossibility of atheism, thus paving the way open for some sort of Theism. But upon further philosophical investigation and empirical discovery, Christian Theism alone is the answer.

Other broadly Theistic worldviews suffer from internal inconsistency or contradiction or lack empirical support.

ColtsFan on October 31, 2007 at 4:47 PM

I know your argument and I’m ignoring it. There are many other ways to refute the veracity of Christianity. What your argument does is attempt to combat atheism when atheists readily admit “we don’t know,” it doesn’t support the Christian God, it supports a concept of god; you’ve taken that concept and used your bias to assume it’s the Christian one.

Esthier on October 31, 2007 at 5:06 PM

I’ve never claimed it’s difficult to believe that you’ll go to a perfect place in another universe if you read and follow a book.

It’s easy to believe in something if you believe all the evidence contradicting it is subject to the things manipulation.

Nonfactor on October 31, 2007 at 4:17 PM

So now it’s easy to believe even though before you were talking about how difficult it is.

Apparently even while discussing contradictions you have no problem using them yourself.

It really doesn’t matter. You’re still not making any legitimate arguments.

No. Christianity, along with thousands of other religions, forces its constituents to take a leap of faith in not only believing a purported fact “God exists,” but also believing that “God has a good plan that humans can’t understand.” To attempt to claim this as rational thought is insane.
Nonfactor on October 31, 2007 at 3:00 PM

Have you seriously considered my argument for Christian theism above in this very thread?

No, and what dooms you guys here is the fact that you keep claiming that The Bible is the word of said God and said word is flawless. When evidence comes out conflicting with said word you go into total denial mode. I’m sure if Christianity is to survive the next 1000 years there has to be drastic variations to the interpretation of The Bible.

My argument for Christian theism is not based on the Bible being the word of God.

My argument is based on the:

a.) existence of immaterial abstract entities
b.) universal laws of logic
c.) moral absolutes
d.) physical laws of science,
e.) the impossibility of atheism as a worldview being able to rationally justify the existence of a.) through d.)

I did not appeal to the Bible at all.

Esthier on October 31, 2007 at 3:07 PM

It’s easy to believe in something if you believe all the evidence contradicting it is subject to the things manipulation.

Nonfactor on October 31, 2007 at 3:00 PM

The so-called evidence is generally so weak that it makes Truthers seem credible.

Also, to try and claim that a supreme being exists whose plans are well understood by mankind is to engage in illogical conclusions.

If there is a God, a being higher than humans, then He must have thoughts that we, mere mortals cannot understand.

Feel free to rag on the leap of faith required to believe in God, but believing that His plans are too sophisticated for us, is really just elementary.

Is Christianity rational?

No. Christianity, along with thousands of other religions, forces its constituents to take a leap of faith in not only believing a purported fact “God exists,” but also believing that “God has a good plan that humans can’t understand.” To attempt to claim this as rational thought is insane.

And does the Christian God exist?

ColtsFan on October 31, 2007 at 12:08 PM

No, and what dooms you guys here is the fact that you keep claiming that The Bible is the word of said God and said word is flawless. When evidence comes out conflicting with said word you go into total denial mode. I’m sure if Christianity is to survive the next 1000 years there has to be drastic variations to the interpretation of The Bible.

I just don’t get how anybody could boo at this:

It seems this was shown along with the previews before a movie, and a fair amount of the audience actually booed at it. The Cheerful Iconoclast questions the patriotism of those who booed. I qu…

Is that standard rooted in subjective, personal, mere human opinion?

ColtsFan on October 31, 2007 at 12:11 PM

His opinion is rooted in his own experiences. It’s not so much God he’s railing against as it is people, people who have professed to be Christians and yet treated him badly quite some time ago.

ColtsFan on October 31, 2007 at 12:08 PM

I agree with everything you say here. The only problem is my time spent discussing Christianity with Loundry has convinced me that he is not interested in doing anything but dwelling in his past.

Basically, I think you’d have an easier time convincing a woman who’s been cheated on and left by her husband that despite her opinions on the man there are actually some doctrines the man believes that are worthwhile.

“By what standard are you expressing your contempt for the Christian God?”

Is that standard rooted in human convention? Or is it just another example of the fallacious appeal to “Science?”

Is that standard rooted in subjective, personal, mere human opinion?

This kind of garbage is par for the course because Christianity is a guilt-based religion.

Loundry on October 31, 2007 at 11:25 AM

You are so full of it Loundry. This is something you’ve put in to Christianity that just isn’t there.

So what if you were made to feel guilty in the past. That’s an anecdote. One cannot make assumptions based on anecdotes.

Many others have refuted your claims with claims of their own that are directly opposed to the concept that Christians are nothing but guilt-mongers.
Esthier on October 31, 2007 at 11:43 AM

I too disagree with Loundry’s view.

But, in all fairness, let us pretend for the moment that Loundry is right:

Christianity is essentially a guilt-filled religion.

Now 2 questions emerge:

1.) Even if one hypothetically agrees on a psychological level (read: DESCRIPTIVE level) with Loundry’s opinion, how is his opinion logically relevant to the following questions:

Is Christianity rational?

And does the Christian God exist?

Loundry’s own human opinions may be interesting, but they are not logically related or relevant at all to the above. They are irrelevant, and can be quickly dismissed.

After all, God could exist with a divine nature that is quite different from the rest of us.

My point is the existence of God is independent of whether or not one “psychologically feels comfortable” with particular doctrines, say, the doctrine of original sin, for example.

1.) ColtsFan may or may not exist.

2.) But the particular doctrine of Colts Fan (i.e., “Peyton Manning is the 2nd greatest thing that happened to Circle City since the invention of sliced bread)
is independent of and not logically relevant to the first issue, his existence.

One could agree with Issue 1 (my existence) and yet deny the second.

This kind of garbage is par for the course because Christianity is a guilt-based religion.

Loundry on October 31, 2007 at 11:25 AM

You are so full of it Loundry. This is something you’ve put in to Christianity that just isn’t there.

So what if you were made to feel guilty in the past. That’s an anecdote. One cannot make assumptions based on anecdotes.

Many others have refuted your claims with claims of their own that are directly opposed to the concept that Christians are nothing but guilt-mongers.

I’ll admit I didn’t have the patience to read all the preceding posts, but isn’t the premise of the video if you don’t accept Jesus as your personal savior your name will not appear in the Book of Life and therefore get you a one way ticket downstairs?

dvldog1142 on October 31, 2007 at 10:41 AM

This was addressed as well. Many here disagree with the video.

The premise of the video is not the premise of Christianity.

No. The premise of the video is that you should feel really, really guilty for being responsible for sending your loved ones to ETERNAL TORTURE for selfishly refusing to share your faith. This kind of garbage is par for the course because Christianity is a guilt-based religion.

Loundry on October 31, 2007 at 11:25 AM

I disagree with the video, but I am kinda curious?

By what universal standard are you using, as an atheist, to label and criticize something as “guilt-based” rather than not as guilt-based?

I’ll admit I didn’t have the patience to read all the preceding posts, but isn’t the premise of the video if you don’t accept Jesus as your personal savior your name will not appear in the Book of Life and therefore get you a one way ticket downstairs?

dvldog1142 on October 31, 2007 at 10:41 AM

No. The premise of the video is that you should feel really, really guilty for being responsible for sending your loved ones to ETERNAL TORTURE for selfishly refusing to share your faith. This kind of garbage is par for the course because Christianity is a guilt-based religion.

I don’t see any problem with the film’s basic message.

That’s because you’re a Christian and are used to living under life-long guilt. If you have to live under it, then why can’t other people impose it?

It wasn’t made to be a proselytization tool. It doesn’t even present the gospel.

It sort-of presents the gospel. The “born bad” and “you need Jesus” parts of it are contained.

So why debate what christians believe vis-a-vis this video?

The gospel is not “If you don’t believe in Jesus, you are going to hell”. If one was perfect, he wouldn’t need Jesus.

joe shmoe on October 31, 2007 at 8:22 AM

Because it is harmful and immoral to make people feel undeserved guilt and unwarranted fear. If that makes your religion harmful and immoral, then so be it.

Numerous times in this post and in many, many others, Christians have refuted this idea outright. No one is condemning anyone to anything.

I’ll admit I didn’t have the patience to read all the preceding posts, but isn’t the premise of the video if you don’t accept Jesus as your personal savior your name will not appear in the Book of Life and therefore get you a one way ticket downstairs?

I understand people’s desire to spread their beliefs to others, but I find it to be arrogant in the extreme for any religion to condemn ALL others not of their faith to an awful eternity.

Numerous times in this post and in many, many others, Christians have refuted this idea outright. No one is condemning anyone to anything.

i honestly didn’t know it was of lefty coinage, sorry.

Fair enough. No hard feelings.

This kind of stuff makes me glad that I finally realized that I am a Deist. I believe in God, but my relationship with him is none of your business. When my time on this Earth is done, I will have to atone for my conduct the same as everybody else.

It is really hard not to see all the problems that are created when one person has decided that the religion of another is wrong. If you believe in a supreme being, explore your relationship with him and make your own decisions.

Thank you, my brother. I hope you’re there to see me denied. It sounds like you’ll enjoy it, although I know you have to pretend like you won’t.

Incidentally, I’m coming around to a belief in Zeus. And let me tell you: when he learns of your conscious, willful, and callous rejection of him, it’s going to be thunderbolt time.

Allahpundit on October 30, 2007 at 5:43 PM

AP, no Christian wants to see someone they respect or care about (sorry dude, not a man crush, just an observation) burn in the fires of Hell. Do we pray for you, Yes. As for me, I’ve always considered Hell to be a cold place, away from the warmth of God. I and I suppose many of your Christian readers will continue to pray for you, just because its what we do. Take care.

It might be a good idea if you practice what you preach. Atheism is a lack of belief. And I know this may come as a shock, but Christ is just one of the many supernatural beings atheists don’t believe in.

We have a lack of belief in the Tooth Fairy, too.

Jaynie59 on October 30, 2007 at 10:36 PM

What does any of that have to do with my statement? Just because you don’t believe in the god of a certain religion, it doesn’t give you the right to add things to that religion that just aren’t there.

I’m not convinced that the scientologists have it right, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to accuse them of cannibalism.

I don’t expect people to forgive me, when I regret doing something wrong and shameful.

That’s a very sad existence. In my life, I’m surrounded by people who love me unconditionally so much so that I do know they will forgive me even when I do something shameful. I’m sorry that you are uncertain about those in your life.

Perhaps I’m not arrogant enough? Certainly not arrogant enough to believe in caring and forgiving gods. Or any god, for that matter.

I don’t understand why people believe insults are a good form of debate.

The bottom line is if it’s true, arrogance has nothing to do with it. If it’s just a story we made up to make ourselves the center of the universe then sure, it’s arrogance.

So what you really meant to say is that you’re not arrogant enough to make up a God who would forgive you unconditionally. But your comment above indicates that might have more to do with the fact that you don’t trust anyone to love you unconditionally.

So why should an atheist ask an imaginary god for anything at all, let alone for total forgiveness?

Syndic Nuruodo on October 30, 2007 at 10:33 PM

As I’ve said above, talking to a god you created is very arrogant, much like the imaginary friend many kids had while growing up.

But talking to God and asking for forgiveness is another matter. Unfortunately, it’s not the matter you wished to discuss.

Thanks. I’m still curious on what happens to people who have never had the chance to hear about God.

BadgerHawk on October 30, 2007 at 10:03 PM

Coltsfan already gave this scripture, but I wanted to post it here and address something else in it.

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Basically it says all men know God and either accept or reject Him. But it’s the part that follows that really intrigues me.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

As punishment, God gave man over to sin. Giving into sin is punishment from God.

For all of those who talk about guilt and the rules from God, things are entirely the opposite. Sin enslaves people, and those who accept Christ are freed from that sin. People can choose to go back to it if they choose, but they’re only punishing themselves.

But if “hell” is just separation from God. And athiests don’t believe in God and don’t want to be associated with him, why would the athiest get upset at being told they are going to get their wish? I mean, would the athiest really want to spend eternity with a being they don’t believe in? So what exactly is all this “Christians hate me because they say I am going to hell” stuff all about anyway?

Fatal on October 30, 2007 at 7:25 PM

I’ve never understood the problem there either.

I don’t think Allah is characteristically irrational, hateful, or a liar. He’s got a conservative blog to run, and him being an atheist and all… There’s bound to be a few snags.

I think the snag is him being respectful contrary to his beliefs. Then he attacks me… although I could’ve been more polite as well.

Free Constitution on October 30, 2007 at 6:33 PM

He’s hardly the only atheists in conservative politics. There are many even on this site who agree with Allah’s lack of religious belief.

And he’s got no reason to not be respectful. There is no logical association of atheism and jackassedness. There are certainly atheists who are jackasses, but that doesn’t mean they all are.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=97759aa27a0c99bff671

–Rap Fan Catholic