I have followed some more about the worrisome rise of political parties with shady and questionable credentials such as the BNP, Vlaams Belang and Sweden Democrats on sites like Hot Air and Little Green Footballs, and there’s more available here and ….

The Japanese fought pretty much the same USA. Prior to being labeled “The Greatest Generation”, they were seen as slackers and ne’er do wells. I’m a firm believer in the concept of “free men will rise up”, and it has not let me down so far.

Krydor on October 30, 2007 at 2:23 PM

I think perhaps we are going in circles. I hope you are right and that the Islamic threat is overblown. I hope you are right that the western democracies are sufficiently healthy to counter these “challenges.” Clearly, I don’t think you are, but I have been accused by more than one person of being a pessimist. I try to fight that.

Finally, I don’t doubt our ability to mount a response. My whole point is what face the response will take. Will a moderate face be sufficient/capable, or will something else emerge. The British lost their empire and status as world power in order to vanquish the Nazis. The Japanese fought a different US than we are today.

Again, let’s hope you are right.

It would border on paranoia to overestimate a group of people who regularly blow themselves up when donning suicide vests in their living rooms, ask for deposits back on trucks used as bomb platforms, run around calling for death to the infidel in front of police and security cameras, can’t build a bomb without it being a dud or blowing up in their faces most of the time, poke their heads out of windows when their manhood is impugned and so on. That’s just the footsoldiers, don’t get me started on their mentally handicapped leadership.

They are, in a word, idiots. They make the same mistakes everyone else did, that being the apparent weakness of the west based on this vile liberalism. The Japanese thought the Americans would never go one on one, the Germans thought the British Commonwealth was full of effite snobs. The Jihadis think we are afraid of getting a paper cut, and dance about under the watchful eye of predator drones only to be blown away. Canadian soldiers take on the worst areas of Afghanistan and have an insanely high kill ratio with substandard equipment.

Especially if we are divided on what to do about them.

Connie on October 30, 2007 at 2:03 PM

Yes, but as you and I suggest, this situation won’t last forever. Imagine the only options left being European fascism and Islamic fascism. We better find our Roosevelts and Churchills.

JiangxiDad on October 30, 2007 at 1:36 PM

Again I agree.

The only thing they damage is us.

Especially if we are divided on what to do about them.

Diana West is so brilliant she makes my knees shake.

MB4 on October 30, 2007 at 1:42 PM

You are in agreement with Michelle and Bryan.

The paranoia amongst conservative bloggers over being labeled ‘racist’ or ‘antisemitic’ has reached a level of nothing less than modern-day witch hunting. As I said in a previous post, the Left em……

MB4 on October 30, 2007 at 3:29 AM

I’m curious how many people here also have a login at LGF. I have one but have only posted 11 oe 12 comments ever. I find that breaking from the party line gets you called a troll pretty quickly, which is annoying. I still visit the site almost daily, but rarely wade into the comments.

BadgerHawk on October 30, 2007 at 10:46 AM

I have a login for LGF, but have never used it. I do not want to participate in any jircle cerks.

Have you seen the latest from Diana West on the Vlaams Belang? Is she personna non-grata?

JiangxiDad on October 30, 2007 at 9:53 AM

Diana West is so brilliant she makes my knees shake.

then all the government has to do is address the problem. Two birds, one stone.

Of course. But they aren’t.

All that takes is a nice focus on free markets and the resulting demand for labour while setting standards for who can receive state aid.

Of course. But it isn’t happening.

It’s about having standards for who gets in and applying those standards.

Not happening.

jihadis are mostly stupid and occasionally lucky. The mostly stupid ones are rounded up quite quickly and the occasionally lucky ones damage the viability of any sort of western Islamic dominance.

It would be,and has been, a mortal error to underestimate anyone who could pull off 9/11, Khobar Towers, US Embassy bombings, USS Cole, Madrid bombings, London bombings, overthrow the Shah of Iran, take-over Afghanistan, threaten Pakistan, weaken Turkey, etc. I doubt the US Military considers the Jihadis stupid. The “lucky” ones as you call them, embolden the seething Islamic masses in Europe. Their actions don’t damage them in Muslim eyes. The only thing they damage is us.

JD, (can I call you JD?)

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. There were economic issues, like hyperinflation, and what amounts to anarchy. Hitler was all about restoring order and glory. I guess I’ll need to understand the context of Liberalism used in this discussion before I’ll concede the point.

Only if you undercut the Jihadis at the same time. Otherwise, game over. And that is what the politicians haven’t been doing.

The problem is that undercutting the neo Fascists necessarily means undercutting the Jihadis. If one group is using Muslim immigration as their wedge and pointing to the lack of action by the government, then all the government has to do is address the problem. Two birds, one stone.

They have primitive ideological backing coming from the mad Wahhabists of Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere, the mad Mullahs of Persia, and their own home-grown trouble-makers who recognized the cancer of liberalism eating western society and now so easily exploit it. Footbaths at airports indeed!

This “cancer of liberalism” thing sticks in my craw just a bit, to be honest. It’s more of a pile of socialist feelgoodism that allows fringe elements to flourish and leech off society. All that takes is a nice focus on free markets and the resulting demand for labour while setting standards for who can receive state aid.

Society does benefit, overall, with different cultures interacting. These same complaints aren’t leveled at the vast number of other cultures that populate western countries. They are focused on a really loud subset of people of a single faith. It’s not so much about liberalism and multiculturalism. It’s about having standards for who gets in and applying those standards.

There is something I’ve learned over the past few years studying this: jihadis are mostly stupid and occasionally lucky. The mostly stupid ones are rounded up quite quickly and the occasionally lucky ones damage the viability of any sort of western Islamic dominance.

JiangxiDad on October 30, 2007 at 9:53 AM

That was a good post and expresses well my own concerns. One side pushes and the other pushes back. In a way, you could say the same about what the results of Hitchen’s push for atheism will be. It will only serve to make Christians stronger. But that is a benign analogy. What is happening with the nationalist movement has dangerous implications and it is absolutely necessary for middle ground to be found. One of the problems for Americans is that public educators and the media have really done a job on removing the sense of “old-fashioned” patriotism. Accomplishing that serves to take the middle ground away and then everyone is suddenly an “extremist. Either left or right.

I thought for sure someone here at Hot Air said Jason’s YAF did have some original affiliation with YAF

Several did, some with links. I don’t know what to make of the whole thing.

Robert Spencer on October 30, 2007 at 8:08 AM

I’m glad you stopped by to comment. I knew you had repudiated them. I thought for sure someone here at Hot Air said Jason’s YAF did have some original affiliation with YAF. I’m happy that I got that part wrong. Still, the whole affair is very disturbing and disappointing. To discover that a hateful ideology is helping in the fight against another hateful ideology…but of course, our government actually uses that strategy…the enemy of my enemy…until the one becomes the other.

The US didn’t align itself with Stalin against Hitler because he was a champion of free markets and civil liberty.

Had the same thought this morning when I woke up. This whole issue is scary, but deadly serious.

The Islamists aren’t dominant without the backing of military force.

Many would argue that the Islamist are, or are indeed becoming, the dominant political/social force in W. Europe. They have no military backing. They have primitive ideological backing coming from the mad Wahhabists of Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere, the mad Mullahs of Persia, and their own home-grown trouble-makers who recognized the cancer of liberalism eating western society and now so easily exploit it. Footbaths at airports indeed!

The idea that Liberalism in Weimar Germany led to the rise of Hitler is a huge overstatement.

I believe, after careful and long consideration, to the best of my ability, that it is the primary source. The depression being secondary. The Versaille Treaty being third. The rise of communism (enabled by liberalism) being fourth.

The Nazis essentially paralyzed the German Parliament and promised to stop if Hitler became Chancellor. The all-too-convenient Reichstag fire (actually set by the guy the Nazis said set it, proving that Communists are pretty damn stupid) allowed consolidation of his power.

Yes, Hitler filled the vacuum. That fact nor his methods are in question. The question is how the vacuum initially was created, and whether the then existing political parties made grave errors that we now understand and are able to avoid repeating. This I don’t know yet.

How does Europe stop it? Well, they obviously can’t deport tens of millions, because that won’t work. Enforce the laws on the books and they will be fine.

Sounds like our own immigration issue. “Just enforce the laws on the books???” That is exactly what I’m talking about. There is a vacuum created when laws are not enforced and politicians are unable to meet the challenge.

There are some leaders on the rise in France and Germany that seem to be doing well.

Agreed. Merkel and Sarkozy are a breath of fresh air. In Britain, not so good. Gordon Brown seems a dunce.

If you undercut the neo-fascists, then they lose whatever grip they have.

Only if you undercut the Jihadis at the same time. Otherwise, game over. And that is what the politicians haven’t been doing.

OH MY GOD!! THEY’RE COMING FOR THE JEWS….THEY’RE COMING FOR THE HOMOSEXUALS!! WHAT SHALL WE DO?!

Oh, wait, the real Nazis already got them…

Well, I’ve been doing some rethinking with regards to the whole Weimar Republic, post WWI thing and think there are some more interesting parallels with pre WWI, decaying imperial powers and the rise of Anarchists. Same type of endgame, naturally.

The idea that Liberalism in Weimar Germany led to the rise of Hitler is a huge overstatement. The Nazis essentially paralyzed the German Parliament and promised to stop if Hitler became Chancellor. The all-too-convenient Reichstag fire (actually set by the guy the Nazis said set it, proving that Communists are pretty damn stupid) allowed consolidation of his power. His influence was on the wane prior to that. There’s a whole bunch of other things that helped Hitler, but Liberalism and so forth was hardly a factor that pushed him over the top.

How does Europe stop it? Well, they obviously can’t deport tens of millions, because that won’t work. Enforce the laws on the books and they will be fine. That kind of thing has been happening more and more. There are some leaders on the rise in France and Germany that seem to be doing well. If you undercut the neo-fascists, then they lose whatever grip they have. I expect the Conservatives in Britain will do the same.

The Islamists, however, will not be shaken in their faith any more than any other hyper-religious person. Hell, there are plenty of Muslims who drink and like bacon. The Islamists aren’t dominant without the backing of military force. Extremist ideologies are like that.

They aren’t so much about fighting Jihad as wishing to institute their own.

You can’t have one without the other.

Problem is, it suddenly makes a whole bunch of people within those states who are not immigrants a possible threat. Naturally, because it’s Europe, you have to start with the Jews. Things going bad? Jews! Wait, things still not great? Moral decay! Homosexuals! What? The ideal still not reached? Atheists and not the right kind of Christian!

All these groups are lost if Jihadis succeed. All are lost if far right succeeds. Yet these people you rightly as their next victims haven’t a clue! In fact, they traditionally and loudly support the very liberals whose policies created this power vacuum in the first place– MULTI-CULTURALISM AND MORAL/ETHICAL RELATIVISM.

You say a pox on both their houses. Agreed. But what are you gonna do about the problem? You may be the voice of conscience, but who ever suggested that this was going to end prettily in Europe? Liberalism in Weimar Germany led to Nazism and world war. Post WWII liberalism has led us to the same place. You may be reading the tea leaves correctly as to where this all leads, but I’m seriously wondering if there is any way to avoid it. I believe that the only way would be to so decisively defeat the Islamists in the Middle-east that their ideology crumbles and they stumble in their faith. Bin Laden’s head on a stick kinda thing. Hopefully, that would wake the Muslims up in the West.

MB4 on October 30, 2007 at 3:29 AM

I’m curious how many people here also have a login at LGF. I have one but have only posted 11 oe 12 comments ever. I find that breaking from the party line gets you called a troll pretty quickly, which is annoying. I still visit the site almost daily, but rarely wade into the comments.

The common thread in all these things seems to be based around deporting immigrants, introducing a mandatory state religion and universal conscription. It’s all under the guise of “strengthening the state” based on some unreachable ideal that, quite frankly, never existed.

Problem is, it suddenly makes a whole bunch of people within those states who are not immigrants a possible threat. Naturally, because it’s Europe, you have to start with the Jews. Things going bad? Jews! Wait, things still not great? Moral decay! Homosexuals! What? The ideal still not reached? Atheists and not the right kind of Christian!

Still impure? Foreign influence! We’ve taken care of the Jews, gays, atheists and wrongthinking Christians so it must be those people infiltrating through the free exchange of ideas by radio, tv and the internet. Best stop that.

On it goes. Doesn’t sound much different than the problem they were claiming to be able to fix. Because it isn’t.