Quote of the day
posted at 10:00 pm on October 28, 2007 by Allahpundit
“The thinness of the new atheism is evident in its approach to our civilization, which until recently was religious to its core. To regret religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its monuments, its achievements, and its legacy. And in my own view, the absence of religious faith, provided that such faith is not murderously intolerant, can have a deleterious effect upon human character and personality. If you empty the world of purpose, make it one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many people, at any rate) of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is necessary for both happiness and decency. For what can soon, and all too easily, replace gratitude is a sense of entitlement. Without gratitude, it is hard to appreciate, or be satisfied with, what you have: and life will become an existential shopping spree that no product satisfies.”
Blowback
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“But I’m not interested in this debate.”
Did I miss something? Who has the keys to this site?
wccawa on October 29, 2007 at 12:11 AM
well it is in the spiritual world. Much of that spiritual world we were not meant to understand or measure. But to put something more practical to that same question which would have no answer would be like asking the same question about ‘light’.
ThackerAgency on October 29, 2007 at 12:12 AM
I agree.
Emotional security blankets have no basis or validity in the truthfulness of the issue at hand.
Emotional security blankets should be rejected as invalid, just like all ad homimen arguments.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:13 AM
No, Christians don’t even agree this is a core point.
Alex K on October 29, 2007 at 12:13 AM
Faith is believing what we know deep down ain’t true.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:14 AM
Interesting point. And I somewhat agree in a limited sense with the thinking behind it.
The problem is one needs a coherent worldview in order to consistently possess the tools to accomplish the above quote.
That is why Pluralistic Naturalists attack the SN for directing the Titantic in the direction of the hidden iceberg.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:16 AM
MORE continuing discussion of the erroneous and unbiblical doctrine of immortality of the soul: As I said, this is a bit of paganism, smuggled into Christianity from Hellenic culture. It’s like Halloween (originally a pagan harvest festival) and “patron saints” (which derived from the domestic demigods of the heathens). None of that crap is in the Bible.
Rather than teaching kids the Bible, some people prefer to teach childish myths. Very handy for scaring small children into being nice, but then the kid grows up, examines and rejects the childish nonsense, and thinks, “OK, there’s no God, just like there’s no Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus.”
People who teach unbiblical doctrine are doing no good for God or man.
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:16 AM
So you’re saying that if you lost faith in God, you’d simply … run amok? Start killing people for sh*ts and giggles? I hear this argument all the time from religious folk and it’s as amazing to me as the priest’s sermon I described up above. Rick Warren actually made the same point in an interview I posted on HA earlier this year. Is the Bible the only thing standing between you and total psychopathy? I’m not one of those atheists who believes religious types are mentally disordered, but you’re not exactly doing yourself any favors here.
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:17 AM
This is one of the few comments I actually had to decide whether or not it was worth commenting on. It lacks, utterly, any intelligent thought. It lack reasoning or logic. In it’s, basic, sophomoric form, it really lacks understanding. Perhaps a more sober, intelligent person, can articulate your meaning. Unfortunately, that person is not you, so please don’t bother responding.
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 12:18 AM
People make mistakes. People can be wrong. That’s why it is important to read the Bible to see what it says for yourself. That is why a PERSONAL understanding of who Jesus is is important for the Christian. Organized religions (ESPECIALLY Catholicism) puts everything in neat little boxes. Do this you are saved, do that you are saved.
But all you need is to read the WORD OF GOD to see what it says. Let the Spirit speak to you and bring you to understand the Word of God. People can be wrong. The Bible is unchanged for a reason. It is truth. That truth can and is misinterpreted often. That’s why you need a personal relationship based on Biblical texts, and not some pomp and circumstance someone tells you about.
ThackerAgency on October 29, 2007 at 12:18 AM
I am sorry.
I just logged on, but I have a question here.
Why are we even trying to answer philosophical questions (like the existence of the soul) with answers phrased in an spatio-numerical-geometric context?
This is a category mistake.
This does not prove the soul does not exist.
What it actually does is “beg the question” in form of a unrealistic, rigid strong version of empiricism, that even many naturalists (like Pluralistic Naturalists) vehemently oppose.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:20 AM
Isn’t ‘Love’ a matter of faith? No one can prove ‘Love’ exists. I guess this means that ‘Love’ ain’t true.
Michael in MI on October 29, 2007 at 12:21 AM
You mean you prefer the atheist quotes to about the only religious one that I ever do? Strange.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:22 AM
Yes, that’s another way of saying “it means what you want it to mean.” Sure, interpretations may differ, and some may be “wrong” — but since there’s no authoritative interpreter to decide the issue, we’ll never know which interpretation is the right one, right? It’s like saying, “Just believe. Don’t sweat the details.”
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:23 AM
thedecider:
Conscience and morals are inborn, they don’t derive from the Church, any Church. If they did, then what if you missed a day of Sunday School, or a whole childhood of it? Would you grow up a sociopath? And how would you know that what the Church preaches is moral? Would you just take their word for it? If so, why?
I don’t commit mayhem because it’s not fair to break the rules, it’s not nice to make other people unhappy, and I don’t want others to steal from me. I have a conscience and a sense of what’s fair. And if I didn’t, there would still be consequences: earthly ones.
Yes. When my life is over, I expect that will be the end of things. As to purpose…well, you do have me there. Although people say that family gives them a reason to get up in the morning, or work does, or a hobby…. Passing on your genes and then ensuring their survival, adding something to the world that wasn’t there before…these things can matter, at least as far as anything matters. Why would the addition of a god make your existence more valuable?
I understand that from your POV it does. I’m not saying you shouldn’t, or that it doesn’t, for you. I am saying that it doesn’t for me.
kate q on October 29, 2007 at 12:23 AM
. . . someone who values human decency as a force that can eventually grow a better species and a better world for the innocents born into it . . .
How’s that working for you, sport? Huh?
Lots of human decency on display in Darfur, right? Or were you talking about North Korea?
And as for growing a better species — yeah, totally. I mean, compare JayZ and Britney to Mozart and Beethoven.
We’re getting beter and better every day! We’re this close to that secular utopia!
I remind you that Thomas More coined “utopia” from Greek roots. Translation: nowhere.
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:23 AM
Yes. I think all definitions of souls are category mistake if approached from an a posteriori direction.
dedalus on October 29, 2007 at 12:25 AM
Man would indeed be in a very poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
- Albert Einstein
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:25 AM
Perish the thought. It’s simply a comment which wonders where your morals come from? I think they come from established Judeo-Christian teaching.
In the same vein, I could argue, yes. If there is no fear of an eternal consequence, what stops mankind from doing whatever he wants? Where do these “morals” – or limits to behavior – come from? Can you really dismiss Judeo-Christian teachings, and, if you don’t believe in God, what prevents the atheist from doing whatever they want if there’s no consequence? What makes you think twice about your actions? I ask these questions sincerely, because I happen to believe most atheists DO consider an afterlife. That they aren’t really “atheists”. I wouldn’t dare attempt to proselytize you, Allah, but I do question your atheist belief system.
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 12:26 AM
The Bible is pretty clear on the main doctrines, there really is no interpretation needed. People who say that it is are the ones who are unlikely to have read any significant portion of it. The only areas where there is any real dispute is the post, mid and pre rapture debates. But the gospels are pretty cut and dry regarding the proper behavior of a Christian and the duties of the leadership of the church. Most of the debate between the different denominations has more to do with rituals that have no doctrinal basis.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 12:27 AM
It means what it SAYS! The words have not changed. If you get Christianity from what someone says, you are getting their interpretation of it. If you READ it, you will get what it says.
It means what it says.
ThackerAgency on October 29, 2007 at 12:28 AM
Yeah – I don’t know.
I don’t even know where to start on these threads. My better judgment tells me not to comment at all. You have Christians who are adamant that “if you will just do this…” or “if you would just understand that…” but, when the conversation partner is not operating within the same philosophical world view, those things are peripheral. There has to be a beginning point – maybe discussion of world view. Phrases like “immortality of the soul,” and “word of God,” I think, have little communicative value outside of the community for which they function as a language.
It all leaves me a little depressed – when I should be happy, as the Red Sox just won the Series.
nailinmyeye on October 29, 2007 at 12:29 AM
Profitsbeard,
Waz up?
I do not want to “beg the question” myself by assuming (in advance”) the need for an eternal answer to your excellent question above.
But I do want to respectfully point out that we need an answer that at least has a coherent worldview behind it for purposes of justification, etc.
I agree.
And that is why as a Christian theist myself (and the “odd” group of atheists called “Pluralistic Naturalists”) continue to press relevant questions to the scientific naturalist:
“You SN type of atheist complain about issue A, yet you have no coherent worldview to allow for that, because you (SN type) reduce everything to physics or biology or to chemistry.”
Here is the thing:
Both the Christian Theist and the Pluralistic Naturalist are right on one thing:
the universe is “enchanted” (Christian theist) or it is
“semi-enchanted” (PN).
If you agree with the above, and 300 years of philosophy points in that direction, then the next question is:
how in the world does one epistemologically access the very same thing that makes our universe “enchanted” or “semi-enchanted?”
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:29 AM
I appreciate your opinion, kate, I just don’t share it and that’s okay. I hope you have a happy and fulfilled life – whatever you believe.
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 12:30 AM
If I told you that I was born in Portland, Oregon you would probably just take my word for it as that is a very unextraordinary claim. However if I told you I was born on a planet in another solar system (actually I was but if you tell anyone I will have to vaporize you with my ray gun), you would probably want some evidence, a lot of evidence, like a ride there in my space ship, as that is a very extraordinary claim.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:31 AM
Congratulations!!
I gave up on baseball a long time ago.
The economics, spending, “caps” just bothered me…
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:31 AM
Whether atheists appreciate it or not, theism is the bank and the contributor of modern western morals and the majority of any society has to agree with and practice those morals or the decay of freedom we’ve seen in this country over the last four decades is the result.
Speakup on October 29, 2007 at 12:31 AM
Thank you.
We agree on the need for evidence.
Here is my question:
Yes or no?
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:34 AM
If human reason developed from a meaningless process then there is nothing inherently valid or trustworthy about human reason. If there is no such thing as objective morality then there is no basis for moral condemnation of Nazis, communists, Islamofascists, or anyone else. One is merely stating a personal preference…
packsoldier on October 29, 2007 at 12:34 AM
I think a key question in this “debate” is a rather simple one…
IF, as the Atheists believe, there is no eteranal consequence for earthly actions, then why not do what is in our own selfish best interest at the time?
If the law won’t catch you, and there is no God… then why not be an A$$hat?
The idea that people are born with a moral sense of right and wrong… and the desire to do good… is a myth. Its a taught and learned behaviour… and one of the MAIN ways we taught it throughout history was to threaten with eternal damnation.
The idea that we will do good for the advancement of the human race is a crock. It will work as long as its easy… but not when it gets tough.
Hmmm… actualy… we see this breakdown already in Group/race politics… its not what is good for society… but only what is good for MY identity group… because THEY will advance ME…. and there is no overiding power to dictate that I should be good to ALL people…
Its all about division…
Romeo13 on October 29, 2007 at 12:36 AM
I think an “enchanted” universe (due to the ontological fact of logical necessity, universal and invariate laws of logic that are trans-spatial, and necessarily applicable, etc)
has benefits and responsibilities:
Benefits for the Christian Theist.
And Responsibilities for the same Christian to stay away from human pride, from emotional appeals (like the one Allah referred to earlier), and from non-rational theologial appeals like “mystery”, etc
I am not an expert myself on this.
Just trying to read the same Book and apply it to my life.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:37 AM
I don’t like to commit myself about heaven and hell – you see, I have friends in both places.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:37 AM
I’m sure I’m gonna step in it, but why not? It really is good news!!!
God is a most loving God. He created man in His own image. God is three in one. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Man is Spirit, Soul, Body. God the Father spoke all into existence (Jesus is the Word through whom all things were made) and the Holy Spirit hovered over the waters of creation. Man was given free will and worked together with God. Adam named all the animals and walked with God in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day. God gave man all the fruit of the garden except the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You can’t have free will without a choice. Adam had a choice. He disobeyed God after Eve was tempted by Satan. Adam was a representative man. He stood for all of mankind. He fell and we fell with him and we were separated from God. So God fixed it! The price of disobeying God is death. Spiritual and physical. So God sent His Son Jesus who paid that debt for us. God died in my place! God died in your place! That is both love and GOOD NEWS! Hell was not made for man, but for Satan and his angels. But since God is a God of justice, sin must be punished. No one has to go to Hell, but it’s just as real as Heaven. The Bible is true from Genesis to Revelation. There’s a lot of great stuff in there.
John 3:16 – 18
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”
Adam was a representative man, and so much more so is Jesus! In Adam all are dead, but Jesus stamped our debt paid in full!
Michael in MI my friend, He indeed knows your name, as you know :-) Psalm 139 is AWESOME! Here’s just a part:
17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!
18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.
That’s a lot of precious thoughts God has towards His kids!
I’m rambling, but I felt it needed to be said. God isn’t some sadistic god who created a mistake destined for hell fire. He created man a little lower than God! and gave His only Son to fix our mistake! Yeah, the world ain’t a pretty place, but this ain’t home either :-)
Ordinary1 on October 29, 2007 at 12:38 AM
Well, it does happen. Place called Littleton, Colo., for example. Maybe you heard of it.
But that’s beside the point, and goes back to whatever warped person taught you “Christianity” — the quote marks necessitated by the false doctrine that you keep arguing against.
Christianity is not about being a good little boy. It’s not about pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die-in-the-sweet-bye-and-bye.
Christianity is about acknowledging the truth, serving the Author of truth, and bringing others to the knowledge of truth.
You are not the arbiter of truth. Truth exists independent of your acceptance of truth. So you are free to believe whatever you choose, and the truth remains the truth.
God exists, He loves you and He calls you. But you have a choice.
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:39 AM
Didn’t God ever feed them? What a poor host.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:40 AM
Excellent point.
This “argument from Reason” which you referred to, has also been made by many Christian philosophers, notably Carl F. Henry, Gordon H. Clark, Ronald Nash.
It is really hard and difficult to conceive of an immaterial faculty of Reason (having transworld necessity) to emerge from a contingent, spatio-temporally located, physicalistically driven engine of Chance.
Paying your intellectual bills by the bank of Chance is like having no money.
Personally, I believe there is no free lunch.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:40 AM
kate – Why is it not fair to break the rules? And who says it is not nice to make other people unhappy? And where did you get your conscience and sense of what’s fair?
Aren’t all these things different for everyone and all relative? Fair, nice, conscience? All these things are relative right?
What you think is not fair and not nice may be just fine to someone else.
I’m not attacking you here, but just thinking out loud based on your post. What I keep getting back to is that if there is no God and no purpose to our lives, then all these rules that are put on us are also just random and meaningless too right?
The only thing stopping us from doing what we want are the rules of the societies in which we live. If life has no meaning, there should be nothing wrong with me going out and killing someone tomorrow, right? Who is to say that killing someone is wrong? Why is it wrong? Who came up with the rule that it is wrong for a person to take the life of another person?
Of course, nowadays that doesn’t really hold too true, since we have euthanasia and abortion and mercy killings and honor killings and such. But really, if there is no point to life, and everything is just random, then why do we say it is wrong to kill? What does it matter if someone lives or dies, if everything is just random and meaningless anyway?
I’m not trying to be psycho here, I’m trying to understand the non-religious view on life. It seems that if there is no afterlife and no purpose to life, then there should be no rules either.
What it comes down to is really instead of people saying God sets the rules over man, people say that certain people set the rules over man.
Okay, I’ve lost my train of thought here and I need to get to sleep. I’ll see where this thread has gone in the morning.
Michael in MI on October 29, 2007 at 12:42 AM
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious ideas of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God. So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake… Religion is all bunk.
- Thomas Edison (if you don’t like what he said, then stop using light bulbs. You may want to turn your PC off too.)
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:43 AM
Interesting how this relates to the “man on the street” segment on a recent O’Reilly Factor, in which teenager after teenager said they don’t owe anything to America, and said “what has the military ever done for me.” Atheism/”progressive…ism”/secularism, etc…. it’s all tied together.
RightWinged on October 29, 2007 at 12:46 AM
Nope. Why would anyone fear believe? It would be comforting at certain times. My motivation is that these atheist threads are so hilariously funny.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:46 AM
Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Exactly what I’m trying to tell AP.
Objective morality must, then, exist independent of our own opinions. There is a truth that is permanent and eternal.
“Thou shalt not stealing” … unless in the grand scheme of things, stealing might advance your personal interests? That’s not morality. It’s not truth. Everyone recognizes its falsehood and immorality, even the thief, who may dissemble or rationalize, but cannot escape, the knowledge that he has done evil.
Why? Where does humanity get this universal recognition of evil?
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:47 AM
Yeah, I’ve heard of it. Want me to start listing abortion clinic bombings now? We can play that game all day long.
Thanks. My imaginary friend the Snuggles bear loves you too. And he really wishes you’d stop treating bare assertions spun out of superstition as, ahem, “the truth.” It’s an insult to actual truth.
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:47 AM
A question for atheists:
If we evolved our senses and ability to think based on their survival value in this world, on what basis can you expect to think that you can understand all there is, or may be, beyond that?
mikeyboss on October 29, 2007 at 12:47 AM
The thing that makes the Bible worth reading is that it is the word of God, not the word of men. You could look at it as a purely historical document, but when I did that I noticed that it stood so far above other documents both then and today that I came the to conclusion it is the inspired word of God. I have not come to the same conclusion about any other document, no matter which church put it together, so my own preference is for a church that stays as close to the Bible as possible.
pedestrian on October 29, 2007 at 12:47 AM
This is nonsense. It is like saying that the world outside would ceases to exist when you close the curtains on your window. The Bible is only a window.
How did we get here? How can there simultaneously be both free will and order in a vast universe…for everything from subatomic particles to human beings?
And, despite enormous differences in cultures and circumstances, why does every single civilization ever known from the dawn of time come to the same conclusion: that there is a Greater Power?
landlines on October 29, 2007 at 12:48 AM
Man wishes to kill God so he can become more Godlike
William Amos on October 29, 2007 at 12:48 AM
It is a category mistake to assume empirical proof for non-empirical concepts.
For the same reason it is a category mistake to fault the number 9 for being ontologically incapable of producing or emitting a sound or for being incapable of emitting the visual appearance of color.
So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake… Religion is all bunk.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:43 AM
MB4,
There has been much harm and much evil in religion.
As a Bible-believing Christian, my posts are never intended to defend anthropologically driven or man-centered religion. As a matter of fact, I will join you in refutting those human creations myself.
One purpose of my posts is to detract attention away from me, away from religion, and to encourage my atheist friends to reflect on the character of the historical figure of Jesus Christ from Nazareth.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:48 AM
Don’t look at me. I came in through the cat door.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:48 AM
I don’t doubt that this is possible… but, I’d like to see a (legit) source for that.
RightWinged on October 29, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Light can be detected and measured. Even it’s speed can be calculated.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:53 AM
In my opinion, the Bible prevents Christians from arguing from the “so-called merits of individual Christians” in comparison/contrast to those unbelieving atheists.
It is a fact that there are a lot of nasty professing Christians out there.
Remember, the church is the institution in the world that requires one to admit they have a problem BEFORE joining.
So us Christians should never have a prideful, “we are more better than those unbelieving atheists.”
However, my question to atheists are:
how can one even make moral judgements in the absence of a coherent, meaningful worldview?
Your atheistic worldview, as taught and defended by atheist philosophers themselves, admit openly the philosophical inability to even articulate universal normative ethical points.
Atheists themselves are moral people, I believe.
But they are moral, in spite of, and in opposition to their worldview.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:54 AM
My imaginary friend the Snuggles bear loves you too. And he really wishes you’d stop treating bare assertions spun out of superstition as, ahem, “the truth.” It’s an insult to actual truth.
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:47 AM
OK, did not mean to insulting.
Complete change of subject: Would you like to help save the lives of children in Darfur and the Sudan?
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:55 AM
AP,
Just because you don’t believe in God doesn’t mean you need to be a smart alek to those who do. You seriously don’t need to be another Hitchens.
j_ehman on October 29, 2007 at 12:56 AM
I wish I had thought of that, but you were first. I’m struggling with how to convince people who claim there is no God, to accept the fact that they consider God in their daily actions. That not only does the thought of an eternal consequence pervade their sub-conscience mind, it also creeps into their consciousness. They think about God and eternal consequence whether they want to or not. And why? Psalms 19: 1-14.
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 12:56 AM
Sounds like some fear that for them that it is. Now for me its cigars and couple of MicroBrews.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:57 AM
I’m off to bed, but for anyone who doesn’t know, this is basically C.S. Lewis’s point in “Mere Christianity.” We all have consciences (or most of us do), says Lewis, and our consciences are all pretty much similar. Ipso faco, presto change-o, e. pluribus unum, we conclude that those consciences must come from God. Another bare assertion spun out of superstition.
Here’s something to chew on by way of that “divinely inspired” conscience we all have. Many Christians — but not all, since they can’t even agree on the most essential points — believe that I, as an atheist, have a one-way ticket to the lake of fire when I die if I don’t repent before then. Yet, when asked whether they think a nonbeliever who leads a good life, honors his responsibilities, and tries to behave charitably towards others should be sent to hell anyway for nonbelief, most Christians (or at least most of the ones I know) seem … a bit hesitant. Which is to say, that divinely inspired conscience of theirs is telling them one thing and their faith is telling them another. Seems like an odd disjunction.
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:57 AM
Speakup on October 29, 2007 at 12:58 AM
Good point. It is not just an universal recognition. It goes farther than that.
It is also an universal “ought-ness” (or prescriptive or normative “ought-ness”) that philosophers know cannot rationally be derived from or reduced to physics, energy, biology, etc.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:59 AM
That’s not really core. God has revealed some small glipses of our future to chasten some and to give others hope of better things ahead. The core messages are about our relationship to the living God and how we should treat others. Given who God is, we can simply trust that he has forgiven us and that we can look forward to joy in whatever he has prepared for us.
pedestrian on October 29, 2007 at 12:59 AM
Allah,
I thought you were agnostic?
Rick on October 29, 2007 at 1:00 AM
It’s too late for me to try to jump in to this whole thing now, but I have to respond to that, as I’ve heard it here (from others) before…
It’s not that we (even though I know you weren’t talking to me, and I haven’t looked up the specific comment you’re replying to) would “run amok”, so much as it’s the fact that morals are God given making us unique among species. The Darwinist belief that we’re all in “competition” (survival of the fittest and all that) has lead to the most murderous regimes the world has ever seen. Anyway, back to the point… it’s not that a belief in God is the only thing holding people back from wild raping and murdering… that sort of behavior is simply not in our human nature, which we believe God gave us… but when you deny this, what reason does one have to not just go hog wild and “do it cuz it feels good”?
It’s not that we feel like God is waiting to cut us off from Heaven if we were to behave that way… it’s that if I really thought for a second that God didn’t exist, why not party like a rock star until you die? If we’re all just insignificant parasites who are just here by chance and nothing we do really matters, because nothing “matters”, really. I just don’t get why atheists bother with… anything. Why not just have a good time, and when it ends it ends.. so what, right?
This kind of reminds me of an argument from the gay-acceptance folks… They can’t ever argue logically on the issue so aside from the “I have normal gay friends” argument, they always resort to “why would a person choose to be gay?”. Well, why would a person choose to believe in God? Being an atheist is INFINITELY more freeing. If only I could be so lucky as to not believe in God, and that I’m just an animal looking out for myself. I could have some serious fun! Again, it’s not that I have any desire to do any of the things you might be thinking, but surely as an animal who knows of no God, I should , right?
RightWinged on October 29, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Just in case you missed this before, AP:
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Ah shucks. I think I must have gone and made you mad.
You had to decide if it was worth the trouble to respond to and then you went to all the trouble to compose such a profound, well thought out, intellectually compelling response as that just for me. You are truly a delight.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:05 AM
I think it is fair (and valid) to remind Christians when they are inconsistent.
But here is the catch:
Rational discourse should never be centered on the messenger, or your above position commits the ad hominem fallacy.
Rather, rational discourse should always be centered on the message.
Confusing messager with message leads to invalid arguments.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:05 AM
Michael:
Why does the existence of God give life a meaning it wouldn’t have otherwise? Where does the meaning come from?
As far as I can tell, my conscience is just there. I’ve never believed in any kind of a god, and yet I do have these morals, so they must have come from somewhere. I suppose empathy was a successful trait in terms of evolution.
You ask who came up with the rule that says not to go around murdering people. Somebody did. Why would it be any less arbitrary if it were God? I think it’s just empathy: I don’t want to be killed, so I assume other people don’t want to be killed either. Tit for Tat. Do unto others, lest ye be done unto. And if we did evolve to have certain morals, that’s *less* arbitrary, isn’t it? It’s at least a coherent system.
Of course we also evolved to have a tendency to believe in deities, and build elaborate rituals around them….
I guess what I’m asking is, why should God’s rules be inherently right, and man’s be inherently insufficient? What is it about the existence of God that makes everything worthwhile?
And how do you know that what the Church preaches IS moral? How can you tell, if not by running it past your internal conscience?
Sleep well…. :)
kate q on October 29, 2007 at 1:07 AM
RightWinged on October 29, 2007 at 1:01 AM
Good post. This was what I was trying to get at in my rambles, only you did it more eloquently and clearly.
Michael in MI on October 29, 2007 at 1:08 AM
But then there is no such thing as darkness. All Darkness is but the absence of light
William Amos on October 29, 2007 at 1:09 AM
Real Christians agree on stuff like this. It’s all the people who aren’t Christians but call themselves Christians that confuse the issues. But it requires wisdom to know the difference.
When one denies God, one can call themselves whatever they want and it doesn’t really matter. When one calls themself Christian, but espouses un-Christlike ideas, it makes a big difference.
I know we like to take jabs at you, Allah, for your atheistic views and claims. But from my perspective your comments are more agnostic. I think you want to believe, but just haven’t yet made it over the obstacles of repentance and submission. Which are, for most people the single biggest obstacles to any religion.
Lawrence on October 29, 2007 at 1:10 AM
kate q on October 29, 2007 at 1:07 AM
Thank you, you do the same. :) I am getting there now finally after procrastinating and continuing reading the thread (this discussion is addicting). But I will address your post tomorrow.
Michael in MI on October 29, 2007 at 1:11 AM
Hey AP. No one wants to see “good” people go to hell. However, belief in Jesus is the only thing that saves. The Bible is clear and Jesus was clear, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Without Jesus all charity is done in ones own strength. I guess it’s good in the immediate help it brings, but when a believer is prompted to do good works by the Holy Spirit, there is an immediate need met, an eternal reward gained and often a spiritual benefit for the one on the receiving end. God’s economy is so very often win win win!
Ordinary1 on October 29, 2007 at 1:11 AM
That’s what caused Jeffrey Dahmer to be like he was you know. It’s a scientific fact. Yes it is. He missed a day of Sunday school and then went completely bonkers. Better hope that “thedecider” never misses church or we may all end up in little pieces in his freezer.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:12 AM
Well I forget read the branch of Christianity I belong to (hasnt been around much lately)
I believe in God I dont believe in the devil. I find the devil to be an excuse for man to commit sin and blame it on something else.
So therefor I dont believe there is such a place as Hell. I only believe that there is Heaven and seperately the Universe.
William Amos on October 29, 2007 at 1:14 AM
I always took this to mean that we should live a life like Jesus. Its not the pronouncement of belief that gets man to heaven but rather the desire to live an exemplary life. Jesus is the way to God but not in the text of just believing but living.
William Amos on October 29, 2007 at 1:16 AM
It’s too bad you’re running off to bed as the debate finally became good. Yes, according to biblical scripture, a person can live a “good life” but still end up in hell by not accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. I have no disagreement with the scripture as it is written. The fact is, you do question your belief system because, in your heart, you know there is a God, and you know there is an afterlife. It seems incredible, to me, that we live on a planet, where, one degree away, or one degree closer, to the sun and life would be impossible. That the moon helps to control our weather systems – being in the precise area where it should be. That our planet has the precise balance of land to water in order to make it habitable. That all this life was able to spring forth in such odds that make life impossible. That we have super-planets – such as Jupiter and Saturn – to absorb incoming commets and meteors – yet, in then end – it’s all just circumstance. It’s all just happenstance. No God – no inspiration behind the fact we’re here – commenting on whether there is a God and, what is the meaning of life? It all just happened for no reason at all, and when it’s over, it’s over. This is the reasoning of the atheist. No thank you! I don’t want any part of it.
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 1:16 AM
To some degree yes, but only to a degree, and not blind faith. Unless you are Hillary of course. No wait, that’s blind ambition.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:17 AM
Cannibals are cannibals because that is how they grow up. Would one of the atheists on this site be a cannibal if they grew up in that type of society or would they know it was wrong to kill people and eat them because they would have a moral compass, so to speak.
It would appear that the internal sense of right and wrong is society based and our society is based on the Judeo-Christian ethic. The farther we move from that ethic the more uncivilized our society is becoming. 100 years ago it would have been absurd for any school to feel that it would be necessary to give 11 year olds contraceptives, and yet now they feel totally justified in doing so.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:17 AM
Thank you!
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 1:18 AM
What do you base this belief on? Jesus spoke about hell on numerous occasions.
Ordinary1 on October 29, 2007 at 1:20 AM
Actually I didn’t need to go back 100 years, 30 years would have been sufficient.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:22 AM
Thomas Jefferson did not seem to think so, but then who was he?
I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind to filch wealth and power to themselves. They, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
- Thomas Jefferson
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:22 AM
I do agree that there is some prima facie hunch for thinking that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I think you may be on to something here….
But what type of “evidence” are you permitting here?
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:23 AM
I agree to the extent that a true confession of faith will bring about a changed life. James said faith without works is dead. In other words, if you really believe something, it’s going to show up in your life! However, if you confess Jesus and believe in your heart and then die, there is no time for a changed life, but a wonderfully changed after life!
Ordinary1 on October 29, 2007 at 1:25 AM
It was nothing.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:26 AM
Dude,
Didn’t we last decide that you would ask the questions, and I will answer. Sorry.
I had a short memory.
I will be quiet now.
:-)
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:29 AM
That is for God to do the permitting and he ain’t speaking to me. Maybe he will talk to you.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:29 AM
MB4, Can’t think for yourself; you have to use dead white people to talk for you? The United States was founded on religious principles, that debate is over. Some of the founders were not Christians but they saw the value of faith. Congress starts with prayer. Why? Who started that tradition?
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:31 AM
And the existence of the soul has major implications for future Bio-ethics debates.
Wait until everyone sees what is coming down the pipe…
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:31 AM
that does ring a bell.
For my first question:
Why is there air?
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:32 AM
I do not claim to hear voices from God.
But your comment makes me wonder if you are philosophically closer to agnosticism than atheism?
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:33 AM
Looks like I have done gone and made you real mad too.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:35 AM
My belief that “air exists,” is due to the testimony of knowledgeable authorities who are far superior to me in terms of the natural sciences, etc. They have told me that “air exists,” and so I believe them on faith.
Philosophically, I believe “air exists” because I have a worldview that encourages empirical investigation and progress in science.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:36 AM
Not mad, I just find atheists amusing.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:36 AM
And annoying at the same time, especially the arrogant ones like Hitchens.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:38 AM
No, I am totally an atheist, although I do believe that Christ was a great man. Too bad some who claim to follow him are not much like him or at least somewhat like him anyway. That is not meant at all to apply to you. Ditto my admiration for Pope John Paul. Ditto Pope Urban II.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:40 AM
Well let me clairfy. I dont believe in the “Fire and Brimstone” kind of hell. Hell is the absence of heaven. In fact can argue that we all are living in Hell right now. Preasts assaulting children, Bloody ruthless wars in the name of God, Cheating deceit and murder. Everything you think to find in Hell you can find already here.
Man doesnt fall into hell. He brings it with him. Its when we try and be like Jesus that we leave Hell behind and accend into heaven
William Amos on October 29, 2007 at 1:43 AM
I initially thought you were an agnostic, simply because I assumed you, as a reflective thinker that I know you to be from past discussions, would want to avoid the logical fallacy of commiting a universal negation.
Agree.
It is called “sanctification” and Christians are encouraged to grow in Christ, and reflect after him.
I personally am still growing in sanctification.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 1:44 AM
You don’t seem to laugh much.
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:45 AM
How would you know? I wasn’t aware that sound traveled through these posts.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 1:47 AM
I never quite thought of it that way. How do you explain Jesus’ story about Lazarus the beggar and the rich man in Luke 16? Here are just a few of the verses.
Luke 16:22-25
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony…”
Ordinary1 on October 29, 2007 at 1:48 AM
OK, technically I am not 100% atheist, only 99%.
But then technically I am not a 100% Al Gore style global warming disbeliever, only 95%.
Properly read, the Bible [old testament] is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
- Issac Asimov (I think he is still alive, I sure hope so anyway, so maybe Rose won’t get mad again at me for quoting dead white guys)
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 1:53 AM
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