Quote of the day
posted at 10:00 pm on October 28, 2007 by Allahpundit
“The thinness of the new atheism is evident in its approach to our civilization, which until recently was religious to its core. To regret religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its monuments, its achievements, and its legacy. And in my own view, the absence of religious faith, provided that such faith is not murderously intolerant, can have a deleterious effect upon human character and personality. If you empty the world of purpose, make it one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many people, at any rate) of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is necessary for both happiness and decency. For what can soon, and all too easily, replace gratitude is a sense of entitlement. Without gratitude, it is hard to appreciate, or be satisfied with, what you have: and life will become an existential shopping spree that no product satisfies.”
Blowback
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Mmm…
Faithalicious…
Damian G. on October 28, 2007 at 10:11 PM
I have always found it amusing that so many “atheists” turn to the Bible to disprove God; and that so many (supposedly) religious people create “science” to try and prove the existence of God. From my point of view, neither approach demonstrates much faith in their position.
Athiests surely can accept that principles first highlighted in faith reflect what is good and worth saving in mankind? And would people of faith truely abandon their belief in God if rational/scientific arguements found against a supreme being?
I think both sides need less argument. Or more hobbies.
doufree on October 28, 2007 at 10:12 PM
“atheists”…I am forever spelling it wrong.
doufree on October 28, 2007 at 10:13 PM
Man is a marvelous curiosity … he thinks he is the Creator’s pet … he even believes the Creator loves him; has a passion for him; sits up nights to admire him; yes and watch over him and keep him out of trouble. He prays to him and thinks He listens. Isn’t it a quaint idea.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 10:19 PM
This is why I have trouble understanding how someone could ‘convert’ from believing in God to being an atheist. Because it just seems that if one believes that there is no God, then life becomes just random and meaningless. We have no purpose and no life, but we merely… exist.
This is something else I really don’t understand. I can understand fearing the process of dying, because that is really tied into the pain and suffering of growing old before dying. But really, whether believer or atheist, what is there really to fear in death? If there is a God and Heaven, then believers go on to Heaven. If there is no God and Heaven, then we all just die. It’s not like we will feel anything after death. We won’t feel regret or pain or miss anyone. We’ll be dead.
Really, fearing death is more logical in fearing the death of others, not fearing the deaths of ourselves. For when those we love die, that leaves us with pain and suffering while still alive. But when *we* die, everything is over for us.
So I don’t understand why someone would fear that.
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 10:22 PM
That was a fantastic article. I really liked this part.
I think the author does a really good job of explaining why the new brand of millitant atheist gets under the skin of so many. Hitchens, for all his literary ability, doesn’t stand for anything. He only stands against God. His ideas, ultimately, don’t actually make anything better.
BadgerHawk on October 28, 2007 at 10:23 PM
Well put. The fear of death has never made sense to me either.
And sorry about your Bears. My girlfriend feels your pain. I, as a Packer fan, was hoping you could give the Lions their 3rd loss.
BadgerHawk on October 28, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Dude, did you even read the article? Probably not. It’s like you saw something on “faith/atheism” and posted the first totally sweet quote that came to mind.
Dalrymple is always a joy to read, and he is at his best here. He has mentioned that he is a nonbeliever in other writings (although I don’t think he has ever called himself an “atheist,” if that matters), but I think that this is the first piece I have read of his exclusively on belief/religion.
Thanks for posting this, Allah.
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 10:27 PM
So you’re saying belief in God is an existential security blanket to deal with the fear of death? Atheists agree.
True story: at my grandfather’s funeral, the priest’s sermon was all about how we have two choices. Either we can refuse to believe, in which case the deceased is dead and gone forever, or we can believe and take comfort in the idea that he’s in heaven. To this day, I’m still shocked by his honesty. No scripture, no inspiration. Just the security blanket.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 10:28 PM
Actually this is incorrect, Every type of religion or lack thereof was and is present, from the beginning.
What has changed is the healthy percentages that created the proper balance of exceptionalism and the moral Republic in “the American way”.
Instead of debating religion versus atheist all sides need to step up and define what a morals producing mechanism is for the majority of Americans and then make damn sure that mechanism is kept turned on and well maintained because without it, we’re headed for totalitarianism, which is not my first choice.
Speakup on October 28, 2007 at 10:28 PM
A previous Hot Air Dalrymple-on-atheism post.
see-dubya on October 28, 2007 at 10:29 PM
James Taranto had a great line in a Best of the Web posting a while back, regarding the difference between military atheists and military religious:
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 10:30 PM
atheism pressuposes theism.
“you are a soul, you have a body” -C.S. Lewis
jp on October 28, 2007 at 10:33 PM
“To regret religion is, in fact, to regret our civilization and its monuments, its achievements, and its legacy.”
Ah yes, it was God who gave us the Internet, then. Sorry Gore!
“And in my own view, the absence of religious faith, provided that such faith is not murderously intolerant, can have a deleterious effect upon human character and personality.”
Yes, for I have never come across a person of faith with poor character and personality. Wince.
“If you empty the world of purpose, make it one of brute fact alone, you empty it (for many people, at any rate) of reasons for gratitude, and a sense of gratitude is necessary for both happiness and decency.”
So you can’t be thankful for something because you don’t believe in God? Why not? Why does God have to provide us with a purpose for existing? Why not just figure out our own purpose?
Ah, right, then we’d be using our own brains, instead of letting some hippies from 2,000 years ago dictate our lives to us. Silly me.
Seixon on October 28, 2007 at 10:37 PM
I am saying that that is what Atheists believe, yes. And I am admitting that the more I struggle with life as I get older, the more I find myself not wanting to believe that Atheists are correct, otherwise that would mean that my life has no meaning. And if that is the case, then there really is no good reason to go on living (yes, I attempted suicide when in High School, though it was actually prior to coming to this realization).
Also, I remember one day sitting in Mass as a kid (I was raised Catholic) and wondering if all this (religion) could be fake. And then I sat a little longer and figured… no way it could be fake, because there are churches and stuff all over the place and it would have to be the biggest lie told in the history of the world and passed down from generation to generation and spread and spread, etc. My young mind just said, this is too big, it has to be true.
But yes, to be honest, I have tried to put myself in the mindset of an atheist and came out with the exact reasoning as your comment above. But when I came to that mindset, I found that it depressed me and put me on the brink again. So I cling to my faith to keep me going.
But I have to say it has gotten harder and harder to stay strong in my faith through the years when faced with so many agnostics and atheists challenging my faith. And since there is no proof of anything, I have no argument to defend anything. It is all based on faith and a book.
So basically, it feels like I have the choice to believe and have faith in a book or stop believing and realize my life means nothing. It’s tough for me to try to keep inspired about anything in life and to be inspiration to others if I believe that there is no point to life and its meaningless.
I honestly do not know how atheists do it.
And I don’t mean that as a slight. Over the last few years, I have really thought about this and after living my life with the belief that we all have meaning and purpose and using that belief to help inspire myself and inspire others, I don’t know how I could live the same kind of purposeful life if I believed otherwise.
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 10:39 PM
Actually, I didn’t read that closely enough, AllahPundit. I would say that it could be an existential security blanket to deal with the purpose of life. I don’t fear death. As I said, either we’re going to Heaven or we’re not and its just all over. Neither option is anything to fear. Believing in God could be a way to give meaning to an otherwise random, meaningless existence.
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 10:44 PM
Michael,
“And I am admitting that the more I struggle with life as I get older, the more I find myself not wanting to believe that Atheists are correct, otherwise that would mean that my life has no meaning.”
Why would your life have no meaning without God? Is God the only thing you have in your life? If not, then of course your life has meaning. Are you your own man or someone else’s bitch?
Seixon on October 28, 2007 at 10:44 PM
Most people fear dying, not death.
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 10:46 PM
they do not live logically, thats how.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGGkg7mGVDc
jp on October 28, 2007 at 10:46 PM
Taranto sounds like a kid there crying over the fact that someone told him Santa doesn’t exist. A cruel thing to do a child, admittedly, but a pathetic complaint coming from an adult. Does he want people to hold him to that child’s standard vis-a-vis religion? Don’t challenge li’l Jimmy’s superstitions or you’re a big meanie?
Notice that Taranto is also offering a means-ends justification for religion. If you take him seriously, whether any of it is true is almost besides the point. Religious people are more charitable, aren’t they? The concept of souls is comforting, isn’t it? Then don’t sweat the small stuff about whether there’s anything to it whatsoever, man.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 10:48 PM
Possibly the most ironic comment ever left at Hot Air. Hat’s off.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 10:49 PM
I KNEW it. I knew you were a former Catholic. I hear stories like yours all the time. I especially hear appalling things that priests say to people at funerals of their family members. They then take what the priest says and use that to turn against the religion and Christ.
This is a big problem I have with Catholicism and the whole hierarchy system that comes along with the power that priests have and so forth. If they would focus on Jesus and the Bible and less on condemning people, they would keep more people in the faith and probably increase their numbers as well.
I’ll never understand why priests feel the need to terrify the family members at funerals. Yours isn’t the first I’ve heard AP, and I am doubtful it will be the last. Just read the Bible dude and make up your own mind.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 10:50 PM
Heh.
Speakup on October 28, 2007 at 10:50 PM
You’re tacking into the wind a bit lightly there mate.
Speakup on October 28, 2007 at 10:52 PM
And MB4, Mark Twain had devastating personal tragedies in his life. He also had the most incredible way with words of anyone in American history. I love Twain’s quotes, but he was a very bitter man. I wouldn’t use what he says as ‘proof’ of anything.
My favorite quote of his is ‘why are people sad when people die and happy when people are born?. . . because they are not the one’s involved.’
As I said, Twain was a bitter but brilliant man.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 10:52 PM
I see your point, but I took his comment to be the comparison of a positive influence vs negative influence. You are right. The concept of souls is conforting. So, taking that, someone telling you that you have a soul is a comfort. And then someone telling you that you do not have a soul is not so comforting.
So I just took it as a comparison of positive influence vs negative influence in people’s lives. Granted, that’s assuming that people believe that having a soul is something good and not having one is something bad. If someone believes that not having (or being) a soul is a good thing, then being told that is so would be a positive influence.
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 10:53 PM
I may have been unclear earlier in my comment about the funeral: I liked the priest’s sermon. I vastly prefer the Catholic Church to Protestantism. If I ever find myself in need of religious comfort again, bet your bottom dollar that it’ll be the Catholics to whom I turn.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 10:54 PM
My point is that you don’t need to turn to anything but the Bible. That’s where you go wrong.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 10:55 PM
But by all means, get yourself to Mass if that’s what it takes for you to accept Christ.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 10:56 PM
I read an excellent academic book that rebuts this quote. It’s a little lefty, but you just have to ignore that stuff like you would in just about all academic books. Its called The Enchantment of Modern Life: Attachments, Crossings, and Ethics by Jane Bennett and it addresses the many secular sources of enchantment. I recommend the book to those who can tolerate academic writing, but sadly it’s not a popular book. A popular book could be written from it.
thuja on October 28, 2007 at 10:57 PM
Yes, well, a billion Catholics politely disagree. But I’m not interested in this debate. For my own part, I find the Church vastly more interesting than the Bible.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 10:57 PM
That’s an interesting article.
Which is why I have to wonder why the people Hitch debates let him work them in the same corners over and over again.
Spirit of 1776 on October 28, 2007 at 10:58 PM
Hence the one million iPhone posts.
Stephen M on October 28, 2007 at 10:59 PM
Interesting, sure. Especially because the church (Catholic) was created when the only ones who could read were the priests. So when the priests told you it said something, you had no way of knowing one way or the other. Literacy is a wonderful thing.
Catholics do have the pomp and circumstance and dog and pony show down pat though.
Without the Bible there would be no Church.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 10:59 PM
Seixon
OT – but did you happen to think the Glenn Greewald email thing was eerily like your experience when your email info was hijacked?
Topsecretk9 on October 28, 2007 at 11:03 PM
Hahaha. Spoken like a true Protestant.
Suprised it only took 50 minutes for the Catholic-bashing to begin.
Ugh, at first I was going to respond to Allah’s always insightful analysis of belief, but then a Protestant had to come in and use Allah as a springboard to attack the Church. Sigh, we Catholics are beset by all sides these days. Such is the nature of the world….
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 11:03 PM
They’ve sold more than a million iPhones. I haven’t bought one. How many Christian have?
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 11:04 PM
Those who find comfort and gratitude and other solace in religion because it gives meaning to existence should consider one thing:
-what is the meaning of a Creation built on the suffering of all of its creatures?
From the first paramecium absorbing their hapless neighbor, dinosaurs chewing on their live kin, and a meteor then killing them all off indiscriminately to allow wolves a chance to tear a lamb to shreds, tigers to drag children off into the brush to devour alive, packs of hyenas to slaughter baby animals, and, most interesting of all, the exemplary cuckoo, who lays her eggs in a stranger’s nest, and then the hatchling instinctively knows to kill the real children of the parasitized bird, and who takes then steals nourishment, illegitimately, from the parents whose babies it had murdered.
Plus, plagues, pestilences, paralyzing ignorance, sectarian superstitions, murderous madness, congenital defects, ad nauseam.
This is the world, which apparently is easily and glibly overlooked, by those glorying the God who founded this brutal paradigm.
If this is the Reason, then it is a chilling one.
If this is a God’s best method of Creation, then God help us all.
If find more comfort picturing in a Nature growing more aware, from chaotic and amoral roots, rather than imagining that this is the begun as the best a God could come up with.
Spontaneous abortions, birth defects, etc. are planned?
Intriguing idea of a “God”.
Atilla, with omnipotence.
And excused of all horrors to win heaven from It?
Turn a shovelful of earth, and the secret of the bloodthirsty universe is bared.
The first signs of transcending it are human.
Not divine.
profitsbeard on October 28, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Yes, please let’s not start a Catholic/Protestant flame war. As amusing as it is to see things turn nasty and the “love thy neighbor” ethic go out the window, it’s a huge headache to have to police it.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 11:05 PM
Didn’t you read Will where I said for him to get to Mass if that’s what it took? Look I appreciate the Catholic Church more than I let on. I look forward to the time that the Church is unified under Christ.
I’ve just been basically trying to defend the ‘evangelical bashing’ that has gone on here at hot air and in the MSM because we don’t have the equivalent of the Catholic League to call out bigotry. We should get one.
I don’t feel like this debate either though. It makes me look like an anti-Catholic and I’m not. I do feel like it is appropriate to point out disagreements that I have with the dogma though (free speech and all).
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Hahaha…I will borrow a quote from D’Souza’s excellent debate with Hitchens the other night: “I feel like a mosquito in a nudist colony. I don’t know where to begin.” I’m tired, and I don’t want to get into a Catholic/Protestant flame war. Suffice to say, you’ve got it backwards….without the Church, there would be no Bible. Who do you think compiled the books, deciding which were and were not orthodox….yea, that would be the Church. Man, oh, man.
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 11:07 PM
lol
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 11:08 PM
Welp, I’m done reading these trolling blog entries. Thanks, you’ve been great, Allahpundit. Hasta.
angryoldfatman on October 28, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Fair enough.
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 11:10 PM
I always thought this was the most poignant and honest two sentences in the entire Bible.
Ecclesiastes 9:9-10
Purple Fury on October 28, 2007 at 11:10 PM
there are many churches in today’s postmodern world that aren’t real churches anymore. More like social commentary gatherings, might as well stay home and watch O’reilly, because there isn’t any actual worship taking place, except of secular humanism using theological terms which they try to pass off as Christianity.
jp on October 28, 2007 at 11:12 PM
Once you have seen, oh about two dozen atheist threads, you have pretty much seen them all, but some truths are universal.
BTW, I am not a dude.
Great fleas have little fleas upon their backs to bite ‘em,
And little fleas have lesser fleas, and so ad infinitum.
And the great fleas themselves, in turn, have greater fleas to go on, while these again have greater still, and greater still, and so on.
- Augustus De Morgan
One of the proofs of the immortality of the soul is that myriads have believed in it. They have also believed the world was flat.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:13 PM
Without the Bible there would be no Church.
Wasn’t it the Church that decided what went into the Bible?
harrison on October 28, 2007 at 11:14 PM
Read the whole article. It’s an atheist, or at least a non-believer, tearing down at militant atheism more than defending religion.
BadgerHawk on October 28, 2007 at 11:15 PM
The issue is not about whether Santa does or does not exist.
Parents implement Santa’s role far better than any “real” Santa could.
Militant atheists are like the sad pathetic downers who enjoy busting other kid’s illusions.
boris on October 28, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Will, The Bible is about the STORY of the EVENT. The Gospels are about the event – supposedly eye witness accounts before the church was created. It either happened or it didn’t. You either believe it did or it didn’t.
I guess I’m a troll now, sorry about that. Again, I appreciate Catholics and what the Catholic Church has done for Christianity. That is all.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 11:16 PM
“The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit.”
-William Somerset Maugham
WillBarrett on October 28, 2007 at 11:17 PM
profitsbeard on October 28, 2007 at 11:05 PM
This is exactly the thing that troubles me. Because I have no response to it.
But in your post you say something about going from “chaotic and amoral beginnings”. Who is to say that what happened in the beginning was chaotic and amoral? Who defines chaotic? Who defines moral and amoral?
Wasn’t it Steve Buscemi in the movie ConAir who said:
Some people consider only having sex with one’s wife to be moral. While others consider only having sex with one woman/man in one’s lifetime to be amoral. Who defines moral and amoral? The majority?
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 11:18 PM
The gods offer no rewards for intellect. There was never one yet that showed any interest in it.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:20 PM
The only problem with this analogy is that we can prove the Earth is not flat. We cannot prove we have or do not have souls. This analogy would only seem to make sense if someone has proven that we have no souls… just as we have proven the earth is not flat.
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 11:20 PM
that’s not what the Bible says or the context of the creation. See Genesis. specifically the pre-Fall section, then what the Fall of Man was all about.
Atheism(secular Humanism) is a religion also, its defined as such in the Human Manifesto I, published in 1933 I believe.
jp on October 28, 2007 at 11:23 PM
Wow! What you dismiss as a “security blanket” is a basic tenant of the Christian faith. That there is an eternal life beyond this one. I’m sure I will never understand the atheists inability to grasp this concept – that a person can have a living soul. A spirit which out-lives the human body. For those who believe, this is not a “security blanket” (as you so blithely dismiss it), it is a basic tenant of our faith, and, yes, it gives us hope for a better future. Perhaps it’s the price of admission which causes such objection. That you are, in fact, a flawed being headed down the wrong path.
thedecider on October 28, 2007 at 11:25 PM
boris on October 28, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Isn’t there a bit of a difference between being told Santa doesn’t exist to being told God doesn’t exist?
When you are told Santa doesn’t exist, you simply find out that your parents are the ones who buy you gifts. When you are told God doesn’t exist, you find out everything on which you based your life is a lie and you no longer have any meaning to your life.
I don’t see how there is a comparison.
I also don’t know why we tell kids about Santa. Unless it is a way for parents to pass the buck about presents. If a parent can’t buy their kids what they want, they can just say that Santa wasn’t able to bring it. However, a shrewd kid would come back and ask why his friends all got what they wanted from Santa, but Santa didn’t bring all s/he wanted. Puts the parents in a bind (wish I had thought of it when a kid) :)
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 11:26 PM
HotAir commenters always setting the bar ever higher!
Can you take me higher, higher?
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:27 PM
Or perhaps “Santa” is his own inconvenient truth behind the true meaning of Christmas.
thedecider on October 28, 2007 at 11:28 PM
I am seriously getting sick and tired of Christians questioning my very humanity because I dont believe in some fairy tails which make very little sense when placed under a microscope at even the lowest of settings. Why is it that religious people are so adamant that everyone believe what they believe? Is it some sort of affirmation of their belief system if they ridicule those who think different/logicaly and attempt to force their views on others?
muyoso on October 28, 2007 at 11:30 PM
You think “logically” in your opinion only. To Christians, your response is not logical. As for “force their views on others”, I’m not sure whom the reference is toward – you, or the Christian.
thedecider on October 28, 2007 at 11:33 PM
Well, speaking for myself of course, it is because I believe it is true. If I believe it is true, it is ‘Good News’ (‘Gospel’ translated). I like telling people good news.
If we weren’t sure, we wouldn’t care. But believers also know that God gave everyone free will (just like Adam in the garden of Eden) to do and think as they choose.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 11:34 PM
I don’t take as proof what anyone says. I prefer to go the skeptic path when I am not going the eclectic path.
I don’t know that Twain was all that bitter as he seems to have kept his sense of humor pretty well, more than I can say for a lot of people (No not you personally!) and yes he was brilliant.
One of my best friends in H.S. was a great-grandson of Twain’s and he was pretty smart too and also an atheist. He was not bitter except when he got sent to RVN, but he got over it.
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:35 PM
I just read through that again; that might be the best of these type of articles posted here. I think there is much to be said for the authors of old who pondered the meaning of life. It is assuredly true that we project our beliefs onto our personal search of what is true, which is to say, we cannot observe the experiment without changing the experiment. But even there in reading the honest thoughts of men past we get closer to ourselves.
Spirit of 1776 on October 28, 2007 at 11:35 PM
And muyoso, I don’t question your humanity. Many wonderful people have lived and not been Christian. I don’t know what has happened to them but I doubt they have been treated harshly by their Creator. But I’m not your average every day condemn everyone to ‘Hell’ type of Christian.
ThackerAgency on October 28, 2007 at 11:36 PM
So lets sum up:
Religion/Spirituality is good as a security blank and a warm comforting fantasy but people seriously deep down know it is likely hogwash.
But if we have to choose between Christian traditions based on savlation through good works vs traditions where savlvation is based one line about grace in Ephesians, we should choose the good works tradition.
Cheers!
liberrocky on October 28, 2007 at 11:38 PM
I guess it was the debate the other day posted on here, where D’Souza kept eluding to the fact that our very humanity comes from accepting God, and human kindness and morality itself was a product of religion. Left me wth a very sour taste in my mouth.
muyoso on October 28, 2007 at 11:39 PM
I am a ptotestant and I LOVE Catholics! THe Catholic Church does much great work for the poor etc.!
Gatordoug on October 28, 2007 at 11:39 PM
What God lacks is convictions — stability of character. He ought to be a Presbyterian or a Catholic or something — not try to be everything.
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:41 PM
Thank you.
nailinmyeye on October 28, 2007 at 11:45 PM
The real sum-up is this: it’s a slow news day. Heck, even the Sunday talkers were dull today. So, let’s start another “religion” battle to drum up posts and comments. Honestly, I’m starting to question whether my comments are worth it if the debate is not premised on a legitimate topic to begin with.
thedecider on October 28, 2007 at 11:45 PM
Oh man there is an obvious Seinfeld reference here.
For all the Seinfeld fans here, remember when Elaine found out that David Puddy was a Christian?
In this case, Elaine isn’t a Christian, and probably doesn’t want Puddy to evangelize, but then gets on his case because he doesn’t care enough to try to save her. hahah
I know many people like to wack Christians over the head with the “love thy neighbor” message of Christ when Christians aren’t being very ‘loving’, but then they also don’t like when Christians follow Christ’s message to evangelize.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t!
Michael in MI on October 28, 2007 at 11:45 PM
A God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell — mouths mercy, and invented hell — mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man’s acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!
- Mark Twain
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:46 PM
To be favor Paul went on about the Grace stuff in Romans too…but common do really trust a tax collector?
liberrocky on October 28, 2007 at 11:47 PM
So true. Excellent comparison.
thedecider on October 28, 2007 at 11:47 PM
Oh ye of little faith. God will fix it all.
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:48 PM
Free will. That’s quite a happy post you have up there, by the way.
BadgerHawk on October 28, 2007 at 11:51 PM
Bobby Jindal is a Rhodes scholar, his mother is a nuclear physicist and his father is an engineer. He is Catholic and wants to open classrooms to the teaching of Creationism. What do atheists do with someone like that? They seem so sure that only stupid people believe in God.
Also, I have a son whose IQ has tested four times in the 140′s the highest being 147. He thinks that atheists are idiots. Atheists are wrong to say that only those who are lacking intelligence are believers. When they make that claim it only reveals their ignorance concerning people of faith.
Rose on October 28, 2007 at 11:54 PM
Didn’t you say that before, before on a past thread, on a past thread.
Are you trying to spoil my fun?
BTW, those quotes have a very long service warranty.
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:54 PM
No they don’t. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
Allahpundit on October 28, 2007 at 11:57 PM
Allah, the priest was wrong. This is not Christianity, it is a pagan heresy smuggled into Christianity by the Catholic Church.
The Bible, in Ecclesiastes, says that the dead know nothing. The New Testament declares a coming judgment day, when the dead shall be resurrected.
Question: If grandpa is already in heaven (or in hell), then what is the need for this future resurrection and judgment?
Ali-Bubba on October 28, 2007 at 11:57 PM
I guess that no one has ever proven that there are no little green men made of cheezos on the moon either.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, not wishful thinking.
MB4 on October 28, 2007 at 11:58 PM
I’m getting a little sick of the Pope Urban one, I think it is, but new ones are still fun.
BadgerHawk on October 29, 2007 at 12:00 AM
Rose on October 28, 2007 at 11:54 PM
Hmmm, the left says the same thing about those who join the military.
The left thinks that those who join the military are illogical… and thus, stupid.
Some atheists think that those who are believers are illogical… and thus, stupid.
These are both ignorant views, but why are they held? In both cases, it just seems that they cannot understand the mindset of someone who would join the military or believe in God. But why automatically just dismiss them as stupid? I know not all atheists do this, but many do.
Granted I would guess that most atheists view Christians and other believers in the same way most people view those who are Scientologists. So the stupid description I guess makes sense viewed in that manner.
Michael in MI on October 29, 2007 at 12:00 AM
I will not question your humanity. I completely respect your choice not to believe the same way that I do. I would even buy you a beer. I’d be sick and tired of people treating me that way too, and I’m sorry that they do. I’ll admit – there are many Christians who, in my opinion, go about discussion on faith, and lack of it, the wrong way.
Could you please refrain from referring to my faith, however, as a fairy tale?
I don’t care if you don’t believe it. I don’t care if you disagree with me. But, the very thing you accuse Christians of is exactly what you do by calling Christian faith a fairy tale, and making the false assumption that it “falls apart” under minimal scrutiny.
The last 10 years of my life have been spent examining those claims, thinking logically (Christians can do that too), in a formal, rigorous, academic setting. For you to refer to me as basically an idiot is, simply, insulting.
All I’m saying is that, I understand your sentiment, and I’m sorry Christians do that to you, and, I don’t understand your reply in kind. Please afford me the same courtesy that you expect.
nailinmyeye on October 29, 2007 at 12:00 AM
To all the atheists on this thread: what is the summation of your life? Is it that when it’s over, it’s over? That’s it? You lived your life, and now, you’re done. Stick a fork in you – it’s over! Why, then, don’t you do whatever you want? As if there’s no eternal consequence? After all, when your life is over, that’s it! You can do whatever you want, while living, then simply shoot yourselves in the head, and that’s it. No consequence! No…price to pay! Nothing! You have nothing to fear by any of your actions, so what prevents you from doing whatever you want? After all, your lives have no eternal meaning. I really want to know: what is holding you back? What value-system do you live by, which prevents you from realizing your deepest desires, also prevents you from doing whatever you want – knowing there is no God, and at the end of your life, you’re simply finished, and you have nothing to answer for?
thedecider on October 29, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Well…there’s definitely a correlation–smarter->less belief. But the exceptions imply it’s not a direct cause-effect.
Alex K on October 29, 2007 at 12:01 AM
Do all extraordinary claims require “extraordinary evidence” by the same criterion?
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:02 AM
Maybe I’m misunderstanding the grandfather story but it seems to me that the priest was saying that those who believe know that Grandpa is in heaven and those who don’t think that he is gone forever. It sounds more like a comparison of belief versus nonbelief.
And the tone of the atheist posts is that if you are a believer you are illogical and downright stupid.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 12:04 AM
And what is this fantastic soul mad of? Green cheese? Vanilla ice cream? How much does it weigh? .002 oz? .003 oz? Is it bigger than a bacteria? Does God beam it out of ones head or does it reside in ones big left toe? Maybe it’s in the appendix. Oh no, I had my appendix removed. Oh $hit!
MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:04 AM
Whether one believes in, disbelieves or doubts God the responsibilities of family, especially raising, loving and caring for children are enough to fill one with a sense of gratitude and provide one with a sense of mission for a lifetime. An afterlifetime is a bonus. Hopefully we’ll be judged on how well we treat other people.
dedalus on October 29, 2007 at 12:04 AM
Continuing discussion of the erroneous and unbiblical doctrine of immortality of the soul: Some people wrongly take comfort in the idea that, at death, the departed believer wafts up to heaven, whereupon he eternally looks down upon what’s going on down on earth.
Oh, that’s great, isn’t it? So, 100 years from now, when one of your great-grandchildren dies of a heroin overdose, and another descendant is suffering from multiple sclerosis, you — the departed saint in heaven — will be aware of all this evil and misery?
It’s unbiblical. The dead are dead. They know nothing. It is at the resurrection that the dead are brought to life — not as ethereal spirits, but as living corporeal beings — to face either (a) final destruction, or (b) eternal life in the Kingdom of God.
Ali-Bubba on October 29, 2007 at 12:06 AM
No appendix? No heaven for you!
I’m not sure on the weight or dimensions of a soul. But I was told that 9 angels can dance on the head of a pin–9 medium sized angels.
dedalus on October 29, 2007 at 12:08 AM
I think this is the main reason, primarily, why Pluralistic Naturalists often criticize Scientific Naturalists for. Both may desire atheism as a shared goal, but their methodologies are radically different.
The PN say that the methodology of the SN leaves atheism open to philosophical attack on multiple fronts.
I think they are right on that one.
ColtsFan on October 29, 2007 at 12:09 AM
A man can no more diminish God’s glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, ‘darkness’ on the walls of his cell.
C. S. Lewis
packsoldier on October 29, 2007 at 12:09 AM
Seems like a pretty core point and yet Christians don’t even agree on this, huh?
Allahpundit on October 29, 2007 at 12:10 AM
Don’t get sick and tired of them. Adopt my attitude and regard them as a never ending source of grand entertainment. Thank you
Godpunctuated equilibrium!MB4 on October 29, 2007 at 12:10 AM
MB4 proves my point. Maybe he has a fear of belief so he compensates by using ridicule.
Rose on October 29, 2007 at 12:10 AM
the decider-
As an agnostic, I can’t answer for ther atheists, but as someone who values human decency as a force that can eventually grow a better species and a better world for the innocents born into it, there is no need for an eternal answer to a daily quandry.
You do what is best for those who you care for here and now.
Irresponsible selfishness destroys the pattern of civilization, without which there is no stability for art, science, culture, safety or a future that becomes any better.
If you value the astonishing gains we have dragged out of the promordial cruelty (that the “God”, who reputedly made this world, bestowed upon us), then you will work to build upon our human achievements.
They are a preciousness that have their own meaning and do not require a Celestial Prop.
Our own species’ greatnesses are worth defending, supporting, cultivating and cherishing.
They are enough meaning for any life as short as ours.
We have a universe and a mind to explore.
“God” would not make it any more “meaningful”, just more pat.
profitsbeard on October 29, 2007 at 12:10 AM
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