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I support Israel but we shouldn’t sugar coat their every move as a noble gesture that the US supports.

Bradky on October 20, 2007 at 12:10 AM

Who is “we” anyway? The US still has a largely Arabist State Department that can be pretty well relied on to take a jaundiced view of what Israel does in its own defence; we have Jimmy Carter, Mearsheimer & Walt, and a substantial percentage of university professors who teach constantly that Israel’s creation was dubious at best, and is a vehicle for the oppression of ya-da ya-da ya-da, there are plenty of Americans who view everything Israel does as being basically sh*t-coated. So what are you proposing? Even if I buy your version of what happened to the USS Liberty, I still don’t get where you are going with this. Israel blows up a nuclear reactor which is under construction in one of the most nefarious regimes on the planet–I say this is good news, and ought to be welcomed. You’re saying–what–because of something that (allegedly) happened 40 years ago we should–what–throw Israel under the bus? Protest this act of imperialist agression? Offer to rebuild the Sryian reactor with our lunch money? As the Israelis would say, “AZ MAH?” Lit, then what?, meaning what is your point already?

Bradky on October 21, 2007 at 1:24 PM

Nice straw man Bradky, the difference is that my step-father was not making anything remotely like an extraordinary claim. He was there and was part of the intelligence gathering team hence in the loop about what actually happened.

You accuse his shipmates of being racists with no proof and that is patently unfair.

Bullshit, its well documented…..

• The disturbing statements of a leading Liberty crewman

James Ennes, one of the leading conspiracy proponents among the former Liberty crewmen, who was interviewed extensively by the History Channel, has made extreme statements that border on the anti-semitic in e-mail discussions on Prodigy. For example, in a message dated June 8, 1992 referring to Israeli Jews, Mr. Ennes stated:

… Consider their dilemma: For generations they wanted their own country as a haven from racists. Finally they got it. Gradually they learned that their “leaders” obtained the new country by murdering and frightening away the original owners. Gradually they learned that the new leaders were actually the worst kind of self- centered, amoralistic murderers – worse than the people they sought to flee from.

This was too much of a moral dilemma for many of them. Some drew silent. Others turned against the people who betrayed them and now led their new country. Others pretended that all was well and that the new country was surrounded by extremists and that this condition justified every kind of brutal excess.[sic] And over the years they have instilled this narrow view in their children who now accept it as religious dogma. It is a very sad situation indeed.

Of course, the people that Jews fled from were first and foremost the Nazis, so Mr. Ennes is saying that Israel’s leaders are “amoralistic murderers” who are “worse” than the Nazis.

In another message dated July 22, 1992, Mr. Ennes stated:

… the fact is Israel would have no enemies if they did not constantly raid their neighbors, steal their land, take their water and kill their children.

Mr. Ennes’s statements are nonsense copied directly from his apparent good friends in the pro-Arab propaganda industry. Clearly, if before the attack on the Liberty Mr. Ennes was not an extreme anti-Israel partisan, he has become one since. His allegations concerning the Liberty must be viewed in that unpleasant context.

Will the History Channel disclose to viewers Mr. Ennes’s fanatical anti-Israel agenda? Will they disclose similar anti-Israel partisanship by certain other Liberty crewmen, who have perhaps been led astray by Mr. Ennes?

doriangrey on October 21, 2007 at 1:05 PM

I understand there is some emotion involved for you since this is your stepfather but a deathbed confession is not necessarily the end all truth. One of the Air Force officers that was at Roswell in ‘47 gave a death bed confession saying that he had really seen aliens.

I posted the NSA transcripts and pictures link along with several others. You are offering an interesting testimonial from one of the crew member but zero corroborating information.

You accuse his shipmates of being racists with no proof and that is patently unfair.

Wanderlust on October 21, 2007 at 4:49 AM

I only know the story because it was a significant part of my step-fathers, shall we say death bed confession. It wasn’t so much a death bed confession as it was an angry rant against the US Government.

He was down right furious at the US Navy because so many of his fellow sailors had died aboard the USS Liberty and their families were never told the truth about the incident. He was also pretty pissed off at those of his fellow crew members who were blaming the Israeli’s claiming that Israel had knowingly and intentionally attacked them.

To clarify a little, my Step-father was not an officer he was an enlisted man. His rating was a Radioman second class at the time. His specialty was electronic intelligence. Like the majority of his fellow intelligence officer peers on the USS Liberty he isn’t listed in the official ships crew manifest.

This is what he was really ranting about. More guys actually died on the USS Liberty then the US Navy admitted to, because quite of few of those that died were not officially on board. When the Navy told their families that they were dead they lied to the families about where and when and how they died.

He understood why it was done at the time, but was still very angry that 30 years later the Navy had not corrected the deception and he didn’t believe they ever would. He believed that the families of his friends who had died on the USS Liberty deserved to know the truth about how and where and when their loved ones had really died.

As he put it, his bests friends family deserved to know that their son did not die in a drunken car crash in Morocco in 1968, but at his post serving his country on board USS Liberty in 1967.

The USS Liberty was trailing a Soviet submarine, the Soviet Sub was using an Egyptian freighter as a spy ship. Thats why the Israeli’s mistook the USS Liberty for that Egyptian freighter. That and the fact that the USS Liberty had intentionally misreported its position and was intentionally not flying its flag.

The bottom line is this, the USS Liberty was a US Navy spy ship that intentionally mis-reported it’s position and was not, I repeat NOT flying it’s American flag. It was 20 miles away from an Egyptian “freighter” that was spying on Israel and was accidentally attacked when it was mistaken for that Egyptian “freighter”.

I know this for a fact because my step-father was on the USS Liberty, he was one of the navy intelligence officers collecting electronic intelligence, not on what Israel was doing in the 1967 Israeli Arab war, but on what the Soviet Union was doing.

doriangrey on October 20, 2007 at 4:23 PM

Wow.

doriangrey, I will admit to having been [previously] swayed by Bamford’s account in “Body of Secrets”, having heard no opposing view. The info Bamford had in his book claimed that the flag was clearly displayed. From what you are saying, it was not.

HUGE difference.

In any case, Bamford’s version didn’t alter my support of Israel one whit. Israel has been taking sh*t from the Arab League nations since before its own Day One (1948); so even if Bamford’s version was true, I understood the [suggested] motives, which I took to be pre-emption out of a legitimate fear of being wiped out by Nasser. He did have a track record behind him to reinforce such fears.

I really appreciate your post, though, to set things straight. I have a feeling that Bamford snowed a lot of people with his version of events; all I ask is that you continue to be patient in setting the record straight: not all of us who bought that story are anti-semitic.

And as you have stated, the Cold War was really many shooting wars on different fronts, proxied up only because if the US-Soviet confrontation ever became truly “hot”, it would have made the world glow too much for comfort.

What amazes me is how that proxy war shaped so much of US covert policy during the Cold War. One day I think I’m gonna write a book of my own about it.

I know this for a fact because my step-father was on the USS Liberty, he was one of the navy intelligence officers collecting electronic intelligence, not on what Israel was doing in the 1967 Israeli Arab war, but on what the Soviet Union was doing. The 1967 Israeli Arab war was just another proxy fight between the United States and the Soviet Union, and that is why the US Navy covered the incident up, not to protect Israel but to conceal the degree of involvement of both the soviet Union and the United states in that war.

doriangrey on October 20, 2007 at 4:23 PM

Yeah, well, you have your story and Bradky has his.

(Sorry – couldn’t resist :-)

On a serious note: Thank you for sharing all of this.

The liberal troll-truther Bradky soils another thread with lies and misdirction and the usual juvenile leftie crap

Bradky has a ready library of lib-nutjob web sites to quote, but never has an original thought and never gives any hint of having more than a tenth grade education, supplemented by reading Newsweek and the NYT

Notice how he’s starting to give up on that “voice of reason” tone, but still likes to pout.

There is a small handful of former navy men who are responsible for 99 percent of the “Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty” crap. Of these five or so guys, four of them were on USS Liberty and one was a Navy JAG officer.

All five of them are well documented Anti-semitic KKK Stormfront grade racists.
doriangrey on October 20, 2007 at 4:23 PM

So your step father is telling the truth and they are liars. Convenient. And you provide no proof except claims about “well documented” about the racist angle you keep throwing out. And you really know what is contained in the redacted documents. Riiiight

You may have convinced RD who could give a shit less about the death of 34 service people

Sh!t happens, and you choose your friends and you stick with what is right. Life is not perfect, which is what you were saying in the first place. So shut up…. ;-)

R D on October 20, 2007 at 1:22 AM

but not me

Go ahead Doris impress me with more non-facts only your opinion and innuendo.

doriangrey on October 20, 2007 at 4:23 PM

Thank you for settling that. And I am saving that for future reference. Also thanks to your step-father for his service.

And now you whip out the race card. Go back to the studio my little friend.

Bradky on October 20, 2007 at 3:30 PM

Sorry dude, you’re the one who whipped out the race card. The second you used the USS Liberty to attack the “the Israel love fest” you whipped it out. Let me set you perfectly straight on a few little details. There is a small handful of former navy men who are responsible for 99 percent of the “Israel intentionally attacked the USS Liberty” crap. Of these five or so guys, four of them were on USS Liberty and one was a Navy JAG officer.

All five of them are well documented Anti-semitic KKK Stormfront grade racists. Their along with author James Bamford accusations and implications have been refuted by the US Navy’s JAG core. They are straight up truthers. Contrary to what you might believe the truther movement did not spring up full grown on 9/12/01, its been growing for a long time.

The bottom line is this, the USS Liberty was a US Navy spy ship that intentionally mis-reported it’s position and was not, I repeat NOT flying it’s American flag. It was 20 miles away from an Egyptian “freighter” that was spying on Israel and was accidentally attacked when it was mistaken for that Egyptian “freighter”.

I know this for a fact because my step-father was on the USS Liberty, he was one of the navy intelligence officers collecting electronic intelligence, not on what Israel was doing in the 1967 Israeli Arab war, but on what the Soviet Union was doing. The 1967 Israeli Arab war was just another proxy fight between the United States and the Soviet Union, and that is why the US Navy covered the incident up, not to protect Israel but to conceal the degree of involvement of both the soviet Union and the United states in that war.

doriangrey on October 20, 2007 at 3:03 PM

Gee Doris, I always suspected you of being a faux musician.
Bamford is not the only person who contends this. Even the NSA report which I linked has page after page that are blank because the information is still classified.

And now you whip out the race card. Go back to the studio my little friend.

Bradky on October 20, 2007 at 1:08 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha, you are quoting the anti-semitic truther and conspiracy theorist author James Bamford as proof of anything??? I always suspected you of being a truther Bradky.

You don’t get it, and I’m out of time.

R D on October 20, 2007 at 1:31 AM

Brains too.

Texas Nick 77 on October 20, 2007 at 11:33 AM

Go pound sand Peckerhead.

saus on October 20, 2007 at 12:05 PM

Bradky just wants a reason to hate Jews Israelis.

saus on October 20, 2007 at 12:05 PM

Ok maybe you can educate me on when a dead American military person is a good and wholesome thing versus when it is a bad and evil thing. If you read any of the references you would have seen there was much more to that than friendly fire.

Absolutely unfrigging believeable.

No one wants to provide too many details about how the Israelis knew that this was a nuclear facility, although this report suggests it was because the Israelis had a man on the inside who not only provided details, but photographs. If this is all tr…..

and why the fuck woudl you report that? it pisses me off when you people and other in the media report people in dangerous positions… why would you propigate this story? do you want him to be killed? do yuo want him to be captured? what exactly is the point of this story?

Kaptain Amerika on October 20, 2007 at 3:07 AM

For you and the couple of other people who think this story puts the life of the spy in danger: After an incident like this there is no way a spy would be sticking around. Syria would track back the past of every person at the facility and eventually figure out that one of their employees can’t be tracked back as far as the others. This doesn’t seem like the kind of mission where the spy hangs around to see if he can become a worker on the next facility.

But I have all 5 seasons of Alias, so I might not know what I’m talking about.

Bradky, please give us all a break. Friendly fire incident, happens within Israel’s military itself, the US military, between American & Canadian militaries etc etc, it is a painful tragic aspect of warfare.

Any notion that there were orders to specifically send out planes to bomb an American boat is so beyond ludicrous it is a waste of time even responding to it. If that was the case the boat would have been sunk, these were planes on patrol that intercepted a target that was not supposed to be there in the height of the war.

Are you sitting around chronicalling other hundreds of FF incidents & also spinning conspiracy theories about them, or just the sole Israeli one?

Please don’t reply to my rhetorical question.

Wouldn’t want the local DFW jihadis to get lost finding my house.

Good night, my friends, Have a nice day…

You don’t get it, and I’m out of time.

R D on October 20, 2007 at 1:31 AM

Brains too.