I’ll add this as my closing thoughts on this matter: the genocide of Armenians and Greeks as perpetrated by the Turks is an extremely emotional issue. Why the staged indignation and pulling of ambassadors by Turkey?

What this all indicates is that this issue is a bargaining chp for the U.S. Turkey can offer access, bases, airspace, w/e and the U.S. can secure these as well as Kurdish security by holding the Armenian genocide over their heads. If there was no validity to the genocide, Turkey wouldn’t be pulling ambassadors and there would be (non-muslim) nations lining up to support Turkey, which isn’t the case.

So in the end, Bryan, you’re right. There’s no immediate benefit to supporting this resolution and there is much to lose. However, as many others have mentioned, Turkey is less than a perfect ally. They are heading down a political road which would be hard for the U.S. to support.

In the short-term, it serves no purpose at best, at worst it costs American lives. In the long-term, you’re appeasing and placating the very forces you’re trying to fight. Quite a pickle.

I’ll personally be satisfied if the Turks play the game they’re expected to play. If they don’t, then all bets are off. The solution is to find a way around Turkey so the U.S. is not so dependent on it (simplistic and easier said than done, I know).

Shouldn’t this have been resolved 90 years ago?

It was ethnic cleansing under cover of WW I.

There was a similar attempt in the mid-1890′s, also.

The Turks need to stop jailing and killing their own writers who bring up this issue.

And cut the denial.

Then maybe they’ll be taken more seriously.

They need us more than we need them.

TURKS need to grow the hell up and accept what their ancestors did…..and for the record, Turkey is hardly what I call a decent ally….

The Turks ought not be stupid enough to force us out of that base over this issue, and as Jules says, they ought to grow up and admit past mistakes like the nations of the West have. Germany would be a prime example for them to follow.

It’s a can of worms or Pandora’s box, selective finger pointing. Japan has yet to apologize to China and other countries for their own Imperialist torture and slaughter. The Turks refuse to consent that their genocide of Armenian Christians occurred. Though is outrageous and disappointing, we are not surprised by either the Turks or the Japanese stance. What of Clinton’s war to demolish Christians in Bosnia. What of the current Darfur Christian genocide with US and UN hands off that could actually be corrected immediately? What of the removal of Iraqi Christians from Iraq right now because of the upheaval that we necessitated? Rather than continuing the self recognition of faults, we admit that the US GOVERNMENT does nothing to help suffering Christian populations today. In fact, the effects of our international dealings further harm Christians who are already suffering abroad.

That is something for our own Congress to resolve to correct. Physician, heal thyself.

As to why the Dems are trying to pass this – I think it has more to do with political support and contributions from the Armenian community than it has to do with undermining the war (although the latter may be a ‘bonus’ in the Dem’s calculations).

Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 10:27 AM

This sounds right to me. If Wild-Eyes has been on the hook for this resolution long before the Dems came to power, then it would be awfully hard to her to back off now. The war aspect is gravy.

But the irony is rich. Armenians here supporting a congressional resolution which would benefit the Islamist nuts in Turkey. I’m guessing they somehow don’t see that.

Max Boot on the “Problem From Hell.” Bryan first opposes the resolution calling the genocide a genocide, finally, and then backtracks a bit. The problem here is that conservatives are taking a somewhat inconsistent position on “moral clarity.” To b…

They have had almost 100 years and they do it now?

Its all about giving Turkey a reason to attack the Kurds.

Not much, but it’s better than nothing.

PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 2:17 PM

That on the moral side of the scale. Then votes for the Calif. districts and in Nov. ’08 for the libs.

And, here is the harshest of all realities – if Turkey moves into Kurdistan, forbids landings and other operations we aren’t even privvy to, it can cost American and other lives.

I have my differences with Turkey plenty, one being the harm they did to the Iraq effort before it even started. However, negotiations and diplomacy is much harder than is assumed and pontificated about and we have to do the best with the cirmcumstances of the moment.

Yah, I want Turkey to apologize to all of Europe for savaging so many…It.Ain’t.Going.To.Happen. Yet, they still killed all those people barbarically.

PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 2:17 PM

And is that worth us possibly losing Incirlik, which among other things is one of the most important support bases for the efforts in Iraq and elsewhere against the jihad? Is it worth giving the Turks another reason to get mad at us, even though their anger really isn’t justified because they are, after all, guilty as can be? I don’t think so.

I’ve stated my position, backed it up, etc, so I really don’t have anything more to say unless someone comes up with an actual argument in favor of how this resolution favorably impacts this war. I care more about winning this one than re-fighting an old one.

I’m not arguing any of that. The facts are the facts. But how does this resolution help or hurt us in the war? I think it hurts us and I’ve explained why. You haven’t answered how it helps us.

Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:59 PM

It acknowledges that Turks killed a bunch of Armenians. It at least legitimizes much of what the Armenians claim about the whole incident. Not much, but it’s better than nothing.

Here is my point, and you are an impressive guy so I don’t mean to call you callous. But your dismissal because of the time (which granted you say isn’t one) is, I think, made not because of its merits, but because you see an overriding priority: National Security. However, one of the endearing qualities of America is the willingness to call evil evil. The genocide was what it was. Even the Israelis, who are very interested in good relationship with Turkey, addressed it in some manner earlier this year (if memory serves).

How about this comparison? GW said when running he would recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy there. A little something called a campaign promise. Result: every 6 months they put it off b/c it isn’t political expedient.

At some point you either do what you think is right, or you don’t pretend to be a moral authority anymore. I object to the dismissal of the relevance of it by age. If we can say jihad is a serious problem with a long history then we can at least be honest about the things that have shaped our present world.

And I don’t believe in “I want us to win the war, period.” For me there are limits. I would never agree to genocide to win a war. And that was part one of the contributing factors to this event in the first place. It is in our interest to condemn it, I think. The matter and timing is the only real question.

As usual you nailed it fogw.

This is a political game to placate two liberal congresspeople in the heavily Armenian districts, of which Glendale is a part.

In addition, the so-for-negotiations-and-diplomacy liberals are total fools/tools for missing the point on the larger repercussions on the country and the world, even though it might earn them points. They could say all that without the resolution. They also could do it at another time, or could have done it a long time ago.

None here should blame the morality of this resolution (no one is or s/b for genocide of any kind), but rather the stupidity of the timing. That’s all I read in his report.

Also, on a personal note, as an exercise in futility/absurdity I’d like the Italians to compile a resolution apologizing for the Romans having invaded the good Dac people, having killed the men, married the widows, and given birth to the Romanians.

PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:55 PM

I’m not arguing any of that. The facts are the facts. But how does this resolution help or hurt us in the war? I think it hurts us and I’ve explained why. You haven’t answered how it helps us.

They don’t even know a Shia from a Sunni, much less the role that Islamic ideology played in the Armenian genocide.

Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:51 PM

This is as good as we’re going to get on the Armenian genocide. The Republicans don’t know the difference between Sunni and Shia either. The only reason Turkey didn’t want us going into Iraq in the first place was because of the Kurds. in the Armenian genocide, Turkey stole most of traditional Armenia as well. They’re worried about losing more of their territory, as legitimizing the genocide would give Armenia more of a territorial claim. Given how small and weak Armenia is right now, I don’t think they really have much to worry about.

PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:44 PM

Agreed. But how does this resolution help us win the war in the real world, where we do need allies and we need that base? As I emailed to a friend, if we were to use this resolution as a chance to broadcast the underlying why of the Armenian genocide, I could be persuaded that it’s a good idea even if it might hurt us in the short run with Turkey. But do you trust the Democrats to do that, since they’re the ones pushing this resolution? I don’t. They don’t even know a Shia from a Sunni, much less the role that Islamic ideology played in the Armenian genocide.

That hardly makes me a dhimmi, dude.

Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:33 PM

I don’t think you’re a dhimmi, for crying out loud. If an event that happened 90 years ago should be no big deal for us right now, why is it such a big deal for the Turks? I don’t think you’d win major points over at Jihad Watch for your remarks, either, but I do apologize for my word choice.

Besides all that, the main battlefield of this “war on terror” is the ideological one, which is where we’re not engaging. This war is being waged by the enemy in a post-Clauswitzian sense, and the Bushies fail to realize that the enemy has their ideological message down pat, and it wins them a lot of support world-wide. If we’re going to truly start fighting this war, maybe we (meaning our politicians), should start talking about what Muslims actually believe. Until we do that, we’re not fighting.

But the Turkey of today is much aggrieved at the resolution, has been warning that the resolution would harm the already tottering US-Ankara relationship, and after the House passed it, Turkey noted its displeasure by recalling its ambassador to the US.

Let’s unpack this statement.

The US-Ankara relationship is tottering for the same reason the Ankara-Jerusalem relationship is suffering: the nouveau riches in Turkey are all Islamists. This is partially because the women in Turkish society join Islamist organizations in an effort to keep their streets free of eastern European (especially Ukranian) prostitutes with whom their husbands like to spend time, but has other causes probably akin to the global resurgence of Islam. Turks don’t like Arabs, but they do like jihad. This has manifested itself in the recent martyrdoms (Christian, not Muslim) of a German evangelical missionary and some Turkish evangelists in a Christian publishing house, as well as the murder of a prominent Armenian author.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration has failed to comprehend this dynamic, as we recently heard Condoleeza Rice foolishly chastising the Turkish military for threatening to intervene (as they did in 1999 btw) to shore up secularism.

In summary, little has changed in Turkey despite the reforms of Mustafa Kemal “Ataturk”, and even he was in large part responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Greeks and Armenians from Anatolia.

If the Bush administration wants to shore up support for it’s democracy building adventures in the middle east, why don’t they contact the Turkish military rather than rebuking the Democrats for doing the right thing for a change?

This isn’t to minimize the Armenian genocide, but for heaven’s sake it’s been 90 years. Turkey wasn’t even Turkey. But the Turkey of today is much aggrieved at the resolution, has been warning that the resolution would harm the already tottering US-Ankara relationship, and after the House passed it, Turkey noted its displeasure by recalling its ambassador to the US.

Horrible dhimmitude, Bryan.