The Armenian genocide: You say you want a resolution?
posted at 9:54 am on October 12, 2007 by Bryan
The world eagerly awaits the Democrat-controlled US Congress passing a resolution condemning the French for framing the Knights Templar. After all, nearly 700 years after Jacques DeMolay was burned at the stake in Paris, documents come to light that rehabilitate the once powerful order. They weren’t heretics, they were just rivals to King Philip’s power, and he owed them a lot of money, so he conspired with the pope to have the order accused of heresies and suppressed. And he just happened to inherit the Templars’ considerable property throughout France. Philip lied, Templars died.
So come on, Democrats, where’s that resolution denouncing the current French government for the sins of King Philip in the 14th century? We’re only 7 years away from the 700th anniversary of DeMolay’s execution, chop chop. Might as well throw in the Catholic Church while we’re at it, since Pope Clement was more than complicit in the crime.
While we’re at it, let’s pass a resolution condeming Italy for the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD. I’m sure there are dozens of other historic crimes that the Democrats can busy themselves with while today’s actual crimes and threats go uncondemned.
Passing these resolutions would make about as much sense as the one the House has actually passed, which states US condemnation of the Armenian genocide, a horrific event that took place 90 years ago when Turkey was known as the Ottoman Empire.
This isn’t to minimize the Armenian genocide, but for heaven’s sake it’s been 90 years. Turkey wasn’t even Turkey. But the Turkey of today is much aggrieved at the resolution, has been warning that the resolution would harm the already tottering US-Ankara relationship, and after the House passed it, Turkey noted its displeasure by recalling its ambassador to the US. That’s a symbolic gesture, but Turkey could respond in more concrete ways including increasing its military operations in Iraqi Kurdistan, Kurdish independence being another major sore spot with the Turks. The Turks are over-reacting, but it’s not like they didn’t telegraph their annoyance with this condemnation.
Lest we all get a kick out of annoying Turkey, a country that has done its part to annoy us over the past few years to be sure, most materiel that gets used in Iraq passes through Turkey on its way. The troops don’t; they pass through Kuwait. But much of the munitions and weapons they use pass through Turkey. Do we really need to go back 90 years and pass a resolution that is sure to annoy them? Is there a point to this exercise?
Well, yes there is. With the Democrats, it comes down to identity politics as usual.
Pelosi, whose congressional district has a large Armenian population, has brushed aside such concerns and said she supports bringing the resolution, for the first time, to a full vote in the House, where more than half of the members have signed on as co-sponsors. The House Foreign Affairs Committee, which has passed such a resolution before, is set to vote on it today.
House Resolution 106, officially the Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide, has been pushed doggedly by a congressman whose Southern California district contains the largest concentration of Armenian Americans in the country. Rep. Adam B. Schiff (D) won his seat in 2000 after his Republican predecessor was sandbagged when then-House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert reneged on a pledge and pulled the bill from the floor after a last-minute plea from President Bill Clinton.
Again, none of this should be misconstrued as minimizing the brutal treatment of the Armenians by the Ottomans. In fact, it would be instructive for Congress to spend some time boning up on the history that they’re passing resolutions on. What motivated the genocide? They would also do well to read up on the Barbary wars of 1802-1805 or so, the first war that the US fought against its first self-declared enemies, who just happened to be a band of state-sponsored piratical jihadists. Congress would do well in fact to study up on a lot of history, so that the heads of various relevant committees might finally know the difference between a Sunni and a Shia. But what Congress ought not do, and all 8 living Secretaries of State agree with this humble blogger’s take on this, is reach back into history and selectively condemn this or that extinct regime for this or that crime when it can have serious consequences in the here and now.
It’s been 90 years, Congress. What is the point?
More: I’m taking some criticism in email over this post, and from people whom I respect and admire. That’s fine, friends can disagree and remain friends. Where I come down on this is that the Democrats are in denial, right now, about the threats we face right now. A sizable chunk of the Dem base believes 9-11 was an inside job. Another sizable chunk believes that even if 9-11 was an actual attack, we had it coming and jihadist ideology has little or nothing to do with anything. Most of the rest of the Dems may privately believe that the jihadist threat is real, but the evangelical Christian threat is more real and more pressing. They’re all but useless on the war. And it’s this party that’s passing this resolution, knowing full well that it’s going to damage our relations with Turkey, a country with which we have rocky but mostly, even now, useful relations. I’m not for coddling Turkey by any means, and the fact is that Turkey’s refusal to let us enter Iraq from Turkish soil in 2003 greatly hurt the war from the start. If we’re going to condemn them for something, how about that, since the present government and people actually did it?
I want us to win the war, period. If this resolution, condemning Turkey without any underlying understanding expressed of why it committed the Armenian genocide, helps us win the war and prevent future genocides like that promised by Iran’s poisonous president, I don’t see how. I do see how it hurts our war effort, and I do see how that in turn may spawn future genocide, and therefore I think this resolution is a bad idea. At this point in time, it doesn’t advance our interests.
I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it.
More: Jules Crittenden weighs in. The airbase that’s at stake, referred to by the 8 US secretaries of state, is probably Incirlik, a US Air Force base in Turkey that has played a critical role in the war against the jihad. We don’t need to lose that base. The Turks ought not be stupid enough to force us out of that base over this issue, and as Jules says, they ought to grow up and admit past mistakes like the nations of the West have. Germany would be a prime example for them to follow. But we really don’t need to lose Incirlik.









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The point is that Pelosi can actuall point to something she did, however stupid it is.
bbz123 on October 12, 2007 at 9:57 AM
The point is to undermine America’s relationship with Turkey, so as to damage our ability to conduct military operations in the region. The timing is no accident, given the upcoming actions against Iran.
HerrMorgenholz on October 12, 2007 at 9:58 AM
It makes it more difficult to conduct the war in Iraq?
amerpundit on October 12, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Since the Dems. don’t have the balls to cut off funding to stop the war they despise, they are going to piss off Turkey to try and end it this way. No more access to Turkey means no more supplies… We either find a new route to resupply our men or the war is over. It’s nothing more than another anti war resolution disguised as this stupid genocide resolution. Bite me dhimmicrats!!
NeverSubmit on October 12, 2007 at 10:07 AM
Bingo! We have a winner…
eanax on October 12, 2007 at 10:08 AM
Logistically, it wouldn’t help, t’all.
yo on October 12, 2007 at 10:09 AM
Armenia, Arshmenia.
It’s all part of the shell game the Donks are playing on a daily basis now, in an attempt to distract from the significant and unreported progress taking place throughout Iraq.
Their General Betray Us stunt couldn’t have been more wrong, and they are scared to death they’ll have to pay the political piper.
Enemies within. Traitors all. Winners only if America loses.
fogw on October 12, 2007 at 10:09 AM
Glenn Beck was terrific on this on his show this morning. It’s hard not to read this as an active attempt to derail the war effort — by pissing off the Turks, therefore encouraging them to curtail or stop their support for our supply lines & air bases in their country. Oh, and make it more likely for them to stage incursions into Iraqi Kurdistan, too.
Purple Fury on October 12, 2007 at 10:10 AM
You can thank your fellow ‘Americans’ for keeping these congressional mouth-breathers employed.
Unconscionably idiotic.
Ochlan on October 12, 2007 at 10:14 AM
Repeat after me. ‘Slow bleed’.
pistolero on October 12, 2007 at 10:16 AM
Turkey’s government is steadily reverting to islamism, therefore I have no problem at all cutting ties with them, including booting them out of NATO, I just question the timing. I’m torn on this, I feel it’s the right thing to do, just not right now. Hugh Fitzgerald has a great post about this at DhimmiWatch
NeverSubmit on October 12, 2007 at 10:17 AM
Fiddlin’ while Rome burns, as usual.
For THIS we pay them over 100 kilobucks ayear?
Texas Nick 77 on October 12, 2007 at 10:20 AM
I don’t guess the dems watch The Shield. Those Armenians are BRUTAL!!!
robblefarian on October 12, 2007 at 10:24 AM
Hugh’s post is great as usual, but I come down on wanting Turkey to go back to its secular ways rather than stay on the Islamist path it’s on now, and this resolution doesn’t help. I also want Turkey in NATO, where it has played an important role over the decades. I just don’t see how this resolution helps. It doesn’t bring anyone back to life and doesn’t advance US interests an inch.
Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 10:27 AM
Pelosi lied and people died.
Griz on October 12, 2007 at 10:27 AM
You know, I don’t post often, but I’ll answer this one: it was ethnic cleansing, plain and simple. I’ve read enough books on the matter and my family was directly involved as Armenians fleeing Turkey.
Now, speaking of boning up on history, it was an American who documented the atrocities and mobilized aid to the Armenian people. It was the Americans who sent ships to Turkey to rescue the refugees. In my own family history, my family fled aboard an American ship which took them to Lebanon, to an American-missionary run refugee camp.
There was an Armenian diaspora akin to the Jewish one. Many have settled in the US (and Europe, and Canada, like my family). The Armenians have been working hard for those 90 years to fight Turkish attempts to whitewash history. Notice how the Turks say that ‘hundreds of thousands of Turks also died’. This is false.
In any case, I agree that this is not the time to pass this resolution, and sadly it probably never will be passed. It’s not because it’s not valid or it’s not the right thing to do (which I think it is), it’s because of geopolitical realities. The U.S. (and Israel) need Turkey. It’s also a bargaining chip to hold over their heads, imho.
As to why the Dems are trying to pass this – I think it has more to do with political support and contributions from the Armenian community than it has to do with undermining the war (although the latter may be a ‘bonus’ in the Dem’s calculations).
Trust me, Armenians support the war on islamofascism. It was islamofascism which was at the root of the genocide. Ironic, isn’t it?
Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 10:27 AM
It’s a brillinat move from a lib point of view. If Turkey takes action it can seriously undermine the Iraq war (and the GOP by extension) and the GOP can’t hit back at the Dems without hearing “Do you support genocide?”. When did the Dems get their own Karl Rove?
Darth Executor on October 12, 2007 at 10:28 AM
Is it an anniversary of any significant date regarding the Armenian Genocide that happened almost a century ago? No?
So did Turkey just betray a promise to an ally by preventing American troops from moving into northern Iraq? No? Six years ago wasn’t it?
But didn’t Joe Biden(D) just provoke the Iraqis and Turkey by suggesting we impose a partition on Iraq creating an independent Kurdistan?
I support an independent Kurdistan but is this really the time?
Or is there just so much good news coming out of Iraq that useful idiot Tom Lantos(D) had to invent a provocation to put our troops at risk?
Nancy Pelosi(D) knows that Turkey just withdrew it’s ambassador and has heard from President Bush about this very issue that there are consequences for such partisan political theater. Yet:
Nancy Pelosi(D) thinks we’re all so stupid we couldn’t possibly see that provoking Turkey, and putting our troops at risk, is exactly the reason such a meaningless resolution is being suggested at this time and she can count on the MainStreamMedia to misrepresent the context of these such actions by the (D)emocrats.
DANEgerus on October 12, 2007 at 10:28 AM
As much as I understand the implications of toying with Turkish guilt, I would only point out that there is still a very high resistance to admission of the Armenian Genocide. Many Turkish history professors refuse to cover it to this day, and it’s a particularly relevant event, considering Hitler’s famous quote:
God bless Soghomon Tehlirian.
MadisonConservative on October 12, 2007 at 10:28 AM
Don’t condemn the mujahadeen. Don’t condemn rocket attacks into Israel. Don’t condemn Syrian influence in Lebanon. Don’t condemn Iran for Hezbollah, Iraq and Afghanistan. Don’t condemn Hugo, Putin, and Castro. Undermine U.S foreign policy at every opportunity. The enemy is in our back yard.
infidel on October 12, 2007 at 10:32 AM
What exactly is so ‘right’ about this kind of thing though?
I mean, what exactly are we trying to say? “We agree that these historical figures did a terrible thing to these historical figures”. So what? How does that help? How does it relate in any meaningful way to the people of today?
Quite frankly, I can see how Turkey is pissed…it’s like flicking sh!t at people that had nothing to do with those historical events…in much the same way that blacks (wanting apologies for slavery/reparations) are whining and flicking sh!t at whites over here.
It’s not relevant to us. Let the history books document events truthfully (shyeah), and let us ensure we learn well.
Ochlan on October 12, 2007 at 10:35 AM
She should be dismissed
Ochlan on October 12, 2007 at 10:39 AM
I truly believe this has absolutely nothing to do with the Armenian genocide. This is just another backdoor attempt by the Dem’s to bring about instability in Iraq. They have tried everything else to bring our troops home and finally Pelosi has hit on something. If this resolution goes through, which in turn will put our troops in more harms way, Pelosi and her ilk with renew their efforts to recall the troops.
moonsbreath on October 12, 2007 at 10:40 AM
Mr. Preston thank you for this posting. I was wondering what their angle was.
/s/
the guerilla
josetheguerilla on October 12, 2007 at 10:40 AM
If it is so looong ago and was the Ottomans not the Turks, then why are the Turks so upset. Tell Tale Heart anyone…
If the Turk parliment passed a resolution condeming the treatment of the Indians, er Native Americans, our reaction would be BFD
The Turk’s are upset, because to them this crime is not recognized, they deny it, but inside they know there is blood on their hands.
tommylotto on October 12, 2007 at 10:43 AM
There fixed it for you.
MCPO Airdale on October 12, 2007 at 10:45 AM
What he said.
locomotivebreath1901 on October 12, 2007 at 10:48 AM
so after reading the resolution, which includes all past acts related to actions taken by the government, they are trying to do what now?
Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on October 12, 2007 at 10:49 AM
Dang Bryan, how come I have to disagree with you two days in a row? You honestly think that this isn’t worth recognition? Would you think that if the Armenians were our allies the way the Turks are right now?
This is poor political posturing and it would hurt us with Turkey. But the President, every year, issues a statement about this. If you are saying his statement are worthless, then I guess okay.
But the real argument is how the condolence is express. The President thinks he should, as he has historically, do it and so represent the American people, and the House thinks they should do it by resolution.
Oh, but it’s been 90 years so it’s probably not even important enough for the President to mention, my bad.
Spirit of 1776 on October 12, 2007 at 10:50 AM
allrsn on October 12, 2007 at 10:58 AM
This is the left’s answer to genocide and tyranny – wring your hands over it after that fact.
Just like in Bosnia – the Euros sat on their hands for years while rape and murder camps were set up just across their border – they freely handed Bosnia women and children over to murders – and made it all better at the end because they expressed their condemnation and had a never-ending clown trial of the Slobo (OK, it did end, but not in a conviction).
It’s not what you do, its how you feel.
Clark1 on October 12, 2007 at 11:01 AM
Just to clarify, I don’t blame the left for not stopping the genocide of the Armenians, but it is sadly ironic that their high priority right now is to condemn a long-ago genocide in the Middle East, while simultaneously proposing immediate troop withdrawals that would almost certainly lead to another genocide of similar proportions.
Which they can then condemn in 30 years time.
Clark1 on October 12, 2007 at 11:04 AM
There is such a thing as right and wrong.
Perhaps it would be useful to go into a hypothetical. Let’s say that Germany never admitted to the Holocaust despite overwhelming evidence that they were responsible; let’s say that the number of victims was smaller, like say, 1.5 million – the number of Armenian victims; and let’s say this happened in 1915 were communications technology was not very advanced.
The Jews would be fighting for recognition and condemnation of this event by the most powerful nations. It’s part of their history and world history. If the Germans were to say it never happened or that whatever happened, it was provoked by the Jews or that as many Germans as Jews died, don’t you think world pressure would be put on Germany to come to terms with its past?
The problem is that recognition of the genocide would have consequences for Turkey. Apart from shame, it would lead to a recognition that they were wrong to think that Christians were less valuable than Muslims and that the former, being considered a problem because of their increasing prosperity and power had to be eliminated. It could also lead to claims of reparations. Having denied it for 90 years, the cost of admitting to it now are ever increasing.
Wordy, I know…first sentence stands: there is such a thing as right and wrong.
Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 11:12 AM
Pelosi said that all measures like these SHOULD be voted on by the House. She pledged to bring these matters before the House for a general vote.
Up next, Japanese War Crimes in Indochina from WWII.
gabriel sutherland on October 12, 2007 at 11:29 AM
So have the Democrats ever condemned the bloodbath that took place in South Vietnam as a direct result of Congressional Democrats voting not to honor the U.S.’ treaty obligations? Talk about your atrocities that have gone unacknowledged by history. Some of those that aided and abetted the deaths of a couple of million people are still in office today, so how about we go after them first?
President Bush making a statement condemning the Armenian genocide is a reasonable way to go, since it’s an event worth condemning and the responsibility for conducting foreign policy lies with the executive branch. Has Congress managed to pass a budget yet? Maybe they should attend to their Constitutional duties before they start meddling in foreign affairs.
ReubenJCogburn on October 12, 2007 at 11:32 AM
The whole reason why the former secretaries wrote to the Speaker opposing the vote was because it would place an undue burden on the ability for the Executive Branch to conduct foreign policy.
These kinds of diplomatic policies must be arranged by the branch of government tasked with employing US foreign policy.
I want to see how Clinton and Obama vote on this presuming Reid even brings this matter up for a vote.
gabriel sutherland on October 12, 2007 at 11:32 AM
This Congress is useless! Who is the next ally that they want to offend? Japan? Maybe Australia needs to be denouced for its treatment of the Aborigines. The fact of the matter is that there isn’t any government that hasn’t committed some form of “atrocity” in someone’s eyes. The time to make denouncements is when the atrocity is actually happening, not 90 years after the fact.
If Congress is so gung-ho about denouncing countries that deny the realtiy of history, why not start with Iran and its President’s stupid claim that Iran has never invaded any one?
DFWShook on October 12, 2007 at 11:35 AM
I’m torn on this. It’s politically good for the Democrats, for sure, because they can say, “See, the Republicans want to whitewash a genocide.” Yes, pissing off Turkey will make the war in Iraq harder to wage, but I think that’s a waste of American blood and treasure anyway. (I believe we are 38 years late on ruining Iran.) Then again, maybe we should piss off Turkey, which is completing its slide into yet another sharia craphole. But do I want to make the lives of our troops currently in Iraq more difficult? No way. I don’t know what to think.
Loundry on October 12, 2007 at 11:36 AM
Three points:
1. This is extremely ham-handed of the Dems. F’n idiots.
2. I’ve a dear friend who is part of the Armenian diaspora. He would like this fine.
3. Turkey will have to fess up to this or they can kiss EU membership good-bye.
harrison on October 12, 2007 at 11:38 AM
I have a real problem with people who want to judge history with 2007 glasses rather than study and learn from the past.
Wade on October 12, 2007 at 11:40 AM
I agree. Whitewashing this from history isn’t going to help them. The sooner they acknowledge it, the quicker they can get what they want – in the EU
Spirit of 1776 on October 12, 2007 at 11:45 AM
Meh. Flogging a dead horse.
Ochlan on October 12, 2007 at 12:00 PM
I have asked the same question to several blogs:
Q: Why does the Democrat leadership think it is so important to publicly thrash out a 100-year-old genocide involving Turkey, right now?!
A: Simple: because 70% of the supplies to US forces in Iraq come through Turkey, and the Turks have threatened to cut that route off if this resolution passes.
There is another angle on this too.
I have been noting how “even-handed” the MSM coverage on this has been – actual coverage of both sides of the issue with respect to the pros and cons: recognize real genocide vs. piss-off Turkey. But there has been little coverage of the fact that Turkey has become our major supply route into Iraq. And there has been nobody asking exactly why this has suddenly become such an urgent issue right now! That is not a question the MSM wants exlored!
But remember, Democrats support the troops… as long as that doesn’t involve actually supplying them, of course.
If anyone in the military in Iraq is reading this, I want to ask why there should not be a blood feud between you and your comrades, and the Democratic Party? There is between me and those bastards, and they are only threatening my life indirectly!
drunyan8315 on October 12, 2007 at 12:07 PM
Liberalmania, if you like this, you’ll love reparations for American slavery.
BTW, the Romans did commit genocide against the Celts, I demand an apology!
Of course we’d have to dig up a Roman to get it.
Speakup on October 12, 2007 at 12:07 PM
In the end, it’s a cost/benefit equation. The U.S. has more to lose (Turkey’s support) than to gain. This will piss off the Armenians that have been fighting for recognition, that’s for sure, but Armenians are integrated enough in the U.S. to understand that it’s not in the U.S.’s interest.
This has much to do with current geopolitical realities than most realize. But let’s let Europe deal with this, they have the biggest hammer to wield over Turkey – admission into the EU. The way I see it, as long as Turkey doesn’t come to terms with its past (esp. in light of the departure from secularism) it will never be admitted into the EU, which itself is fighting against the islamification of Europe.
Meh, dead horse flogging indeed.
Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 12:10 PM
It’s not like it’s the first time that the Armenians have tried to have the U.S. government to pass this resolution. This has been going on for years. It has been successfully passed in Canada and in Europe.
As to why this is an issue now? It’s because there is more at stake in light of the war. It’s also because the Dems want to put the administration into a lose-lose situation. They are also trying to secure votes and cash for the 2008 election. End of story.
Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 12:15 PM
drunyan8315′s point is interesting. If you cut off the supply chain to Iraq through Turkey, everything has to then go through the Straits of Hormuz and southern Iraq. This happens to be the place where the Brits are now leaving.
Is objective here to place US troop supply chains right in the middle of the Iranian line of fire?
This seems like it would create a greater propensity for war with Iran. That can’t be the objective of the Democrats, can it?
gabriel sutherland on October 12, 2007 at 12:19 PM
Ask Mr Sharpton for advice on how to get your apology and check.
Ochlan on October 12, 2007 at 12:21 PM
This is the reason, another attempt to starve our troops of supplies so that we lose…Dem’s are TRAITORS.
JustTruth101 on October 12, 2007 at 12:39 PM
It is just Pelosi’s war on the war, she will do any and every underhanded thing she can to be a thorn in the side of what she thinks is “Bush’s War”
She is a discrace to the Hill
americaslaststand on October 12, 2007 at 1:07 PM
EDUT:Disgrace
americaslaststand on October 12, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Horrible dhimmitude, Bryan.
PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:08 PM
Let’s unpack this statement.
The US-Ankara relationship is tottering for the same reason the Ankara-Jerusalem relationship is suffering: the nouveau riches in Turkey are all Islamists. This is partially because the women in Turkish society join Islamist organizations in an effort to keep their streets free of eastern European (especially Ukranian) prostitutes with whom their husbands like to spend time, but has other causes probably akin to the global resurgence of Islam. Turks don’t like Arabs, but they do like jihad. This has manifested itself in the recent martyrdoms (Christian, not Muslim) of a German evangelical missionary and some Turkish evangelists in a Christian publishing house, as well as the murder of a prominent Armenian author.
Unfortunately, the Bush administration has failed to comprehend this dynamic, as we recently heard Condoleeza Rice foolishly chastising the Turkish military for threatening to intervene (as they did in 1999 btw) to shore up secularism.
In summary, little has changed in Turkey despite the reforms of Mustafa Kemal “Ataturk”, and even he was in large part responsible for the ethnic cleansing of Greeks and Armenians from Anatolia.
If the Bush administration wants to shore up support for it’s democracy building adventures in the middle east, why don’t they contact the Turkish military rather than rebuking the Democrats for doing the right thing for a change?
PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:26 PM
Do not accuse me of dhimmitude. Disagree all you want, but that’s just nonsense that discredits the accuser, not the accused. I pointed out in the post and the updates that this resolution, at this time, hurts the war effort. It may cost us a useful air base. Why it has to happen right now is a subject for the tea leaf readers. I’m just observing that it’s counterproductive to our goals of actually winning the actual war that’s actually occurring right now. That hardly makes me a dhimmi, dude.
Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:33 PM
I don’t think you’re a dhimmi, for crying out loud. If an event that happened 90 years ago should be no big deal for us right now, why is it such a big deal for the Turks? I don’t think you’d win major points over at Jihad Watch for your remarks, either, but I do apologize for my word choice.
Besides all that, the main battlefield of this “war on terror” is the ideological one, which is where we’re not engaging. This war is being waged by the enemy in a post-Clauswitzian sense, and the Bushies fail to realize that the enemy has their ideological message down pat, and it wins them a lot of support world-wide. If we’re going to truly start fighting this war, maybe we (meaning our politicians), should start talking about what Muslims actually believe. Until we do that, we’re not fighting.
PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:44 PM
Agreed. But how does this resolution help us win the war in the real world, where we do need allies and we need that base? As I emailed to a friend, if we were to use this resolution as a chance to broadcast the underlying why of the Armenian genocide, I could be persuaded that it’s a good idea even if it might hurt us in the short run with Turkey. But do you trust the Democrats to do that, since they’re the ones pushing this resolution? I don’t. They don’t even know a Shia from a Sunni, much less the role that Islamic ideology played in the Armenian genocide.
Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:51 PM
This is as good as we’re going to get on the Armenian genocide. The Republicans don’t know the difference between Sunni and Shia either. The only reason Turkey didn’t want us going into Iraq in the first place was because of the Kurds. in the Armenian genocide, Turkey stole most of traditional Armenia as well. They’re worried about losing more of their territory, as legitimizing the genocide would give Armenia more of a territorial claim. Given how small and weak Armenia is right now, I don’t think they really have much to worry about.
PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 1:55 PM
I’m not arguing any of that. The facts are the facts. But how does this resolution help or hurt us in the war? I think it hurts us and I’ve explained why. You haven’t answered how it helps us.
Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 1:59 PM
fogw on October 12, 2007 at 10:09 AM
As usual you nailed it fogw.
This is a political game to placate two liberal congresspeople in the heavily Armenian districts, of which Glendale is a part.
In addition, the so-for-negotiations-and-diplomacy liberals are total fools/tools for missing the point on the larger repercussions on the country and the world, even though it might earn them points. They could say all that without the resolution. They also could do it at another time, or could have done it a long time ago.
None here should blame the morality of this resolution (no one is or s/b for genocide of any kind), but rather the stupidity of the timing. That’s all I read in his report.
Also, on a personal note, as an exercise in futility/absurdity I’d like the Italians to compile a resolution apologizing for the Romans having invaded the good Dac people, having killed the men, married the widows, and given birth to the Romanians.
Entelechy on October 12, 2007 at 2:10 PM
Sorry – s/b “that’s all I read in Bryan’s (his) report”.
Entelechy on October 12, 2007 at 2:15 PM
Byran: Just to be clear, as I just read your update, I didn’t mean to imply you were wrong in your assessment that the House should not pass this resolution at this time. I support the WH’s position on this.
Here is my point, and you are an impressive guy so I don’t mean to call you callous. But your dismissal because of the time (which granted you say isn’t one) is, I think, made not because of its merits, but because you see an overriding priority: National Security. However, one of the endearing qualities of America is the willingness to call evil evil. The genocide was what it was. Even the Israelis, who are very interested in good relationship with Turkey, addressed it in some manner earlier this year (if memory serves).
How about this comparison? GW said when running he would recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the US embassy there. A little something called a campaign promise. Result: every 6 months they put it off b/c it isn’t political expedient.
At some point you either do what you think is right, or you don’t pretend to be a moral authority anymore. I object to the dismissal of the relevance of it by age. If we can say jihad is a serious problem with a long history then we can at least be honest about the things that have shaped our present world.
And I don’t believe in “I want us to win the war, period.” For me there are limits. I would never agree to genocide to win a war. And that was part one of the contributing factors to this event in the first place. It is in our interest to condemn it, I think. The matter and timing is the only real question.
Spirit of 1776 on October 12, 2007 at 2:15 PM
It acknowledges that Turks killed a bunch of Armenians. It at least legitimizes much of what the Armenians claim about the whole incident. Not much, but it’s better than nothing.
PRCalDude on October 12, 2007 at 2:17 PM
And is that worth us possibly losing Incirlik, which among other things is one of the most important support bases for the efforts in Iraq and elsewhere against the jihad? Is it worth giving the Turks another reason to get mad at us, even though their anger really isn’t justified because they are, after all, guilty as can be? I don’t think so.
I’ve stated my position, backed it up, etc, so I really don’t have anything more to say unless someone comes up with an actual argument in favor of how this resolution favorably impacts this war. I care more about winning this one than re-fighting an old one.
Bryan on October 12, 2007 at 2:22 PM
That on the moral side of the scale. Then votes for the Calif. districts and in Nov. ’08 for the libs.
And, here is the harshest of all realities – if Turkey moves into Kurdistan, forbids landings and other operations we aren’t even privvy to, it can cost American and other lives.
I have my differences with Turkey plenty, one being the harm they did to the Iraq effort before it even started. However, negotiations and diplomacy is much harder than is assumed and pontificated about and we have to do the best with the cirmcumstances of the moment.
Yah, I want Turkey to apologize to all of Europe for savaging so many…It.Ain’t.Going.To.Happen. Yet, they still killed all those people barbarically.
Entelechy on October 12, 2007 at 2:27 PM
We must be really close to undeniable victory in Iraq, because this is clearly a desperate attempt to escalate the war.
They have had almost 100 years and they do it now?
Its all about giving Turkey a reason to attack the Kurds.
HonestConservative on October 12, 2007 at 3:08 PM
It is the only thing Pelousy can do to. She and her minions can’t pass any real legislation, so why not piss off our friends, that’ll work.
Kini on October 12, 2007 at 3:11 PM
This sounds right to me. If Wild-Eyes has been on the hook for this resolution long before the Dems came to power, then it would be awfully hard to her to back off now. The war aspect is gravy.
But the irony is rich. Armenians here supporting a congressional resolution which would benefit the Islamist nuts in Turkey. I’m guessing they somehow don’t see that.
Jaibones on October 12, 2007 at 3:37 PM
It’s a can of worms or Pandora’s box, selective finger pointing. Japan has yet to apologize to China and other countries for their own Imperialist torture and slaughter. The Turks refuse to consent that their genocide of Armenian Christians occurred. Though is outrageous and disappointing, we are not surprised by either the Turks or the Japanese stance. What of Clinton’s war to demolish Christians in Bosnia. What of the current Darfur Christian genocide with US and UN hands off that could actually be corrected immediately? What of the removal of Iraqi Christians from Iraq right now because of the upheaval that we necessitated? Rather than continuing the self recognition of faults, we admit that the US GOVERNMENT does nothing to help suffering Christian populations today. In fact, the effects of our international dealings further harm Christians who are already suffering abroad.
That is something for our own Congress to resolve to correct. Physician, heal thyself.
maverick muse on October 12, 2007 at 4:40 PM
Poor Nancy. She keeps trying so hard and it just fizzles(I expect this will too). Was she always this shallow and I just didn’t notice. Is it not possible for her to find an issue that actually serves the betterment of the country? Maybe then, she can get a consensus and start to look effective.
jeanie on October 12, 2007 at 5:05 PM
Regardless of Turk’s being offended or bad motives on the Dem’s behalf, this is the RIGHT thing to do for the Armenian people and I fully support it….this was the first Genocide of the last century…
TURKS need to grow the hell up and accept what their ancestors did…..and for the record, Turkey is hardly what I call a decent ally….
Albertanator on October 12, 2007 at 6:25 PM
Odd timing.
Shouldn’t this have been resolved 90 years ago?
It was ethnic cleansing under cover of WW I.
There was a similar attempt in the mid-1890′s, also.
The Turks need to stop jailing and killing their own writers who bring up this issue.
And cut the denial.
Then maybe they’ll be taken more seriously.
They need us more than we need them.
profitsbeard on October 12, 2007 at 8:24 PM
Jailbones, thanks for the validation :)
I’ll add this as my closing thoughts on this matter: the genocide of Armenians and Greeks as perpetrated by the Turks is an extremely emotional issue. Why the staged indignation and pulling of ambassadors by Turkey?
What this all indicates is that this issue is a bargaining chp for the U.S. Turkey can offer access, bases, airspace, w/e and the U.S. can secure these as well as Kurdish security by holding the Armenian genocide over their heads. If there was no validity to the genocide, Turkey wouldn’t be pulling ambassadors and there would be (non-muslim) nations lining up to support Turkey, which isn’t the case.
So in the end, Bryan, you’re right. There’s no immediate benefit to supporting this resolution and there is much to lose. However, as many others have mentioned, Turkey is less than a perfect ally. They are heading down a political road which would be hard for the U.S. to support.
In the short-term, it serves no purpose at best, at worst it costs American lives. In the long-term, you’re appeasing and placating the very forces you’re trying to fight. Quite a pickle.
I’ll personally be satisfied if the Turks play the game they’re expected to play. If they don’t, then all bets are off. The solution is to find a way around Turkey so the U.S. is not so dependent on it (simplistic and easier said than done, I know).
Clouds on October 12, 2007 at 9:07 PM
Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding—Non-Binding. How long can this crap go on? I don’t know because I am not a dimmi, so just asking in case anyone may have a clue. All the dems seem to be able to is one NB resolution after another. No commitment No dedication except to America losing. Wait I know lets bring Carter back, he only made one mistake right? 21.5% prime 13% inflation 9% unemployment Heck that must have been by design because he was only one helicopter short.
mjkazee on October 12, 2007 at 11:27 PM