Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?

Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.

Reason: Militarily?

Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.

I’m sorry. I sympathize with Ms. Ali’s horrible experiences with Islamism as a child, but starting an all-out war with the Muslim World is just insane.

There’s plenty of brave Muslim women in the world who protest their conditions under Islamic patriarchy without advocating a start to WWIV, why don’t we hear from them?

And I know you atheists will bitch and moan, but the simple fact of the matter is Stalin and Mao and Marx were all vehemently anti-religious (SEE: secular–it’s a little more complicated with Hitler). They didn’t just come out nowhere, they were shaped by atheist, secular, and humanist ideaologies of the nineteenth century.

WillBarrett on October 11, 2007 at 6:46 PM

Most dictators are atheistic for the pragmatic reason that they are against any political or cultural movement which they are not in control of. Before most humans had any grasp of science or philosophy monarchs simply claimed “divine right” of rule. When people were even less sohpisticated rulers got away with claiming they were god themselves (ie Egyptian Pharoh). Since either of those 2 would cause any modern humans to laugh in the dictator’s face, claiming to be atheist is the only way to disavow all modern religions that would interfere with thier political agenda.

Coorelation does not equal causation. You are mistaken if you think secular beliefs logically lead to Marxism, socialism ect. They are a pragmatic alliance because there is little else to say about God when you have a philosophy that seeks domination on earth but you have no credible religous claim to go along with it.

effect not cause

albo on October 11, 2007 at 12:30 PM

Sorry, it’s not a strawman argument at all. I’ve know quite a few atheists (my good friend is one), and that argument has been presented to me by them in some form or another on many occasions.

To put it in a terribly simple way, secularism has led to a moral relativism in the West (due in part to the Enlightenment to which some of you people worship at the altar–see Alasdair MacIntyre, Charles Taylor, et al for more on this). I think this moral weakness has also left us weak against the jihadis, and I worry about the future.

And I know you atheists will bitch and moan, but the simple fact of the matter is Stalin and Mao and Marx were all vehemently anti-religious (SEE: secular–it’s a little more complicated with Hitler). They didn’t just come out nowhere, they were shaped by atheist, secular, and humanist ideaologies of the nineteenth century.

[...] there’s really only one Islam, defined as submission to the will of God.

(1) God tells you to live a virtuous life
(2) God tells you to (contrary to his revelation in the Qur’an) kill innocents and commit suicide in the process

Both types are our enemy? I call bull****. When God is “telling you” to do things that are explicitly contrary to his wishes as specified in the Qur’an, you are living a perverted and false version of Islam.

[...] the likelihood of Muslims turning radical [in America] seems lower than in Europe.

For one thing, America doesn’t really have a welfare system. Mohammed Bouyeri had all day long to plot the murder of Theo van Gogh. American Muslims have to get a job. What pushes people who come to America to assimilate is that it’s expected of them. And people are not mollycoddled by the government.

So if Muslims can live in America and assimilate because of our lack of a comprehensive welfare system, why isn’t she calling for an abolishment of welfare systems in Europe to help curb radicalism? If free speech can coexist with Islam, why is she advocating such drastic approaches such as outlawing religious schools?

JiangxiDad on October 11, 2007 at 11:36 AM

I interpret that as her discussing political & religious ideologies, and their original squashing of liberties.

Now I don’t think she meant all of these “isms” were identical or of the same violent nature, based on other comments I’ve seen by her on her religious friends.

I wonder if the donors he’s lined up will be willing to identify themselves. Probably not.

I would, AP…I’d run the dang site to keep her in the money, remember????

In fact from the moment she arrived in Washington DC last year a series of incident took place were Hirsi Ali felt unsafe, notably when her security detail chose to follow her in a separate taxi often leaving her with cabdrivers of Somali and Ethiopian descent one of whom Hirsi Ali claimed recognized her.

I can tell you quite confidently that DC has seen a monumental shift in the ethnic makeup of their cabbies in the past decade: What used to be 90% Nigerian (DC) appears to be 70% Somali/Ethiopian (rough guess).

Don’t like the switch in religious demographics? Drive or take a cab in Fairfax…they’re still Ghanian, from what I’ve heard.

Are you ready for a “blood shooting out of your eyes” moment?Then read further on this from Michelle Malkin:Most of you have probably already seen this story:

New York’s iconic Empire State Building is to be lit up green from Friday in honor of….

Yet, the most astounding piece to come out of these documents is the fact that during one of these security-evaluation meetings Hirsi Ali was advised to seek psychiatric counseling. Hirsi Ali declined this offer – something which the government apparently was willing to fund – by replying that in case her mental condition would require ‘counseling’ she would just as well contact a good friend.

….STUPID!

I think that it’s a great mistake for this country to reject a very good atheist.

What is a good atheist? Were Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Lenin good atheists? Or were they bad ones?

You know… I’m just askin’…

OT: Is anyone else having trouble accessing the site in Firefox?

baldilocks on October 11, 2007 at 2:22 PM

Nope.

And people are not mollycoddled by the government.

The sentence and the word mollycoddled, should make it into our everyday language and vocabulary.

The trouble is the West.

The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it’s going to get bigger.

Very insightful and the most powerful. All else flows from there.

[Hirsi Ali:] I accept that there are multitudes seeking God, seeking meaning, and so on, but if they reject atheism, I would rather they became modern-day Catholics or Jews than that they became Muslims. Because my Catholic and Jewish colleagues are fine. The concept of God in Jewish orthodoxy is one where you’re having constant quarrels with God. Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit. Jews should be proselytizing about a God that you can quarrel with. Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God. They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism.

I greatly admire this woman.

OT: Is anyone else having trouble accessing the site in Firefox?

There’s a lot of white guilt in America, but it’s directed toward black Americans and native Indians, not toward Muslims and other immigrants. People come from China, Vietnam, and all kinds of Muslim countries. To the average American, they’re all fellow immigrants.

The white guilt in Germany and Holland and the U.K. is very different. It has to do with colonialism. It has to do with Dutch emigrants having spread apartheid in South Africa. It has to do with the Holocaust. So the mind-set toward immigrants in Europe is far more complex than here. Europeans are more reticent about saying no to immigrants.

And by and large, Muslim immigrants in Europe do not come with the intention to assimilate. They come with the intention to work, earn some money, and go back. That’s how the first wave of immigrants in the Netherlands was perceived: They would just come to work and then they’d go away. The newer generations that have followed are coming not so much to work and more to reap the benefits of the welfare state. Again, assimilation is not really on their minds.

That’s a pristine observation.

I will! I’ll donate $500(NZ) In fact I’ll flaunt it at every opportunity; on every political forum across the political divide; on every Jihad loving Muslim or Left-wing website I can find! I’ll do this using my real name rather than cower behind a pseudonym. There’s no way I’m going kow tow to a a group of totalitarian rat b*st*rds in any way shape or form.

Anthony Neville

Make it this. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is someone we need to listen to. Thanks to Hot Air…….

Why, why, WHY don’t we have anyone running for president with this kind of brevity? Maybe it requires a close friend being brutally murdered by someone driven to madness with religious indoctrination. Maybe it requires another 9/11-level attack. Whatever it is, I hope it happens soon. We’re supposedly a sleeping dragon waiting to be awakened and strike, as Ali mentions, when the problem gets too big.

However, if we sleep too long, there won’t be any more chance to wake up.

The Western mind-set—that if we respect them, they’re going to respect us, that if we indulge and appease and condone and so on, the problem will go away—is delusional. The problem is not going to go away. Confront it, or it’s only going to get bigger.

This is all the more reason why we cannot even give one inch regarding our aspiring presidential candidates (think 6’4″ Saviour Freddie) hiring staff that pander to the Islamic extremists.

I was speaking with a Hurricane Katrina survivor/author/musician/ last night and he said the biggest lesson that this disaster has taught him is the fact that our country is so great because of it’s wonderful people. Something so great that he would’ve missed had it not been for the fact that now the survivors are scattered across 40 states (and many more cities) and the common theme from all of them, is they didn’t realize this country had so many wonderful people.

This author is traveling all over the country helping these survivors organize, so as to keep their cultural traditions, as it applies to the black Indians of New Orleans, from completely disappearing.

I have never been more proud to me an American, upon hearing this report of our humanity shown to New Orleans refugees in time of need.

This wonderful spirit of our American humanity also has the downside of underestimating the desire of Islamic extremist’s desire for overruling our freedoms as Hirsi Ali so clearly explains.

The idea, that we should be cowering and slinking with fear when we are accused of being bigots because we want to track, monitor, restrain Islam as it pertains to radicals, is patently absurd.
And, I have no use, whatsoever, of HotAir commentators, et al who try to defend aspiring/politicians et al, that are/have been connected in any way, to individuals who pander to Muslim/Islam, as it pertains to preventing this freedom-squashing caliphate from advancing.

And yes, that applies to you, yes YOU! IF YOU DON’T LIKE WHAT I JUST SAID! Other than showing the stupidity of your such idiotic comments, and as such you are a useful idget (idget = idiot + widget), I would have you banned from this site.

Those of us who grew up in the complacent, tolerant, west just can’t see the madness for what it is.

Exactly. The west went through the enlightenment, the age of reason; the islamic world never did. We can’t see through their eyes, through the honor/shame culture, the idea of fate, “as allah wills it.”

Our basic attitudes and cultural ideas are so removed from their world view–we easily forget this and naively think they will react to a situation as a rational westerner would. That’s folly–and dangerous.

Americans must reject the lie that Islam is a “religion” and we must not allow this death cult to receive the Constitutional protections that were intended for religion.

Well said.

Hirsi Ali: Only if Islam is defeated. Because right now, the political side of Islam, the power-hungry expansionist side of Islam, has become superior to the Sufis and the Ismailis and the peace-seeking Muslims.

Reason: Don’t you mean defeating radical Islam?

Hirsi Ali: No. Islam, period. Once it’s defeated, it can mutate into something peaceful. It’s very difficult to even talk about peace now. They’re not interested in peace.

Reason: We have to crush the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims under our boot? In concrete terms, what does that mean, “defeat Islam”?

Hirsi Ali: I think that we are at war with Islam. And there’s no middle ground in wars. Islam can be defeated in many ways. For starters, you stop the spread of the ideology itself; at present, there are native Westerners converting to Islam, and they’re the most fanatical sometimes. There is infiltration of Islam in the schools and universities of the West. You stop that. You stop the symbol burning and the effigy burning, and you look them in the eye and flex your muscles and you say, “This is a warning. We won’t accept this anymore.” There comes a moment when you crush your enemy.

Reason: Militarily?

Hirsi Ali: In all forms, and if you don’t do that, then you have to live with the consequence of being crushed.

===========================================================

Ayaan Hirsi Ali understands that the death cult of Islam must be crushed or we will live with the consequence of being crushed. This is what the American people must wake up to. Islam is the enemy, it must be crushed in all forms, it must be denounced for the evil that it is. Attempts at appeasement will have the same result as Neville Chamberlain’s naive attempt to appease Hitler.

Islam must be recognized for the evil, akin to Nazism that it is, or we must prepare to be crushed. Those are the only alternatives. Americans must reject the lie that Islam is a “religion” and we must not allow this death cult to receive the Constitutional protections that were intended for religion.