PS Why have we not heard a theological response from any of our Jewish commenters? Don’t we have any?
Jaibones on October 11, 2007 at 3:53 PM

By now it takes about three hours to wade through this thread, so I am getting here late to the party. I’ll admit I jumped down here from Jailbones question, so forgive me, if I’m redundant or anything else.

I agree that what Ann said is classical Christian doctrine. No question. I also agree that anyone who doesn’t believe that their faith is superior needs to get another faith, or get no faith (which paradoxically is most demanding faith position, but let’s not get the atheists going). She’s not saying anything new, certainly nothing new to me. But just because everybody knows that Aunt Sarah has bad breath, doesn’t mean that we have to say it in front of Aunt Sarah. Some four year old child might do that, but none the adults would, we would hope. She’s not wrong, she’s just tactless.

But I wanted to try a little experiment in mutual perspective taking. There’s a prayer near the end of the Jewish morning service, whether weekday or Sabbath, or holiday called the Aleinu. It means literally “It’s on us,” in the sense of recognizing our obligation. It’s quite old, very intense, and according to some traditions was recited by Jews who were about to be martyred. I’m going to go ahead and put part of it in here, and I’m going to bold the part that is controversial enough so that in all the liberal siddurs (prayer books) it is left out, and even in the traditional ones some of it is left out. I’m going to borrow from one translation, but fix it up where I can’t stand their clunkiness. Pay particular attention to how you feel when you read the controversial part.

It is incumbent upon us to praise the Master of all, to ascribe greatness to the One who formed the Creation, that he did not make us like the nations of the lands, and has not situated us like the families of the earth, for he has not assigned us a portion like theirs, nor a lot like all of their multitudes for they bow to vanity and nothingness, and worship a god that does not save. But we bend the knees, bow down, etc.

The italicized bold is left out in some traditional siddurs, in many, all of the bold part is there. So, how does it feel to read that? I’ll tell you that traditional Jews believe this is true, and it is classical Jewish doctrine, but I’m gonna venture to say that maybe this is something that Joe Lieberman, and Jackie Mason, and Barbara Streisand (heh, as if) ought to keep to themselves. Remember, the siddur is an “in-house” document. If the liberal movements (who may be too ambivalent to make these such strong statements in general) leave it out altogether, and many traditional ones leave out the bold/italics part, which would be the toughest part to swallow–maybe it reflects an awareness of the historical weakness of Jewish communities–maybe it reflects a desire not be provocative (and I know tons of religious Jews who have told me under no uncertain terms NOT to post these words in an open forum like this–what are you trying to start up with them for, etc.)–maybe it reflects tact–I don’t know. I guess one of things that strikes me about Ann’s fearlessness in being so bald about the theological point she raised, is that it reflects a certain entitlement, a knowing who the big dog is (and indirectly telling us who the small dog is). So I guess I don’t like having that shoved in my face–not the theology, as I said, that is waaay old news to me, but the entitlement, and the lack of humility.

A few quick points. Messiah–Isaiah–look it up. Jews who believe in Jesus–there are two kinds–Jews for Jesus, who ARE Christians disguised as Jews aggressively trying to convert Jews–and many Messianic Jews who see themselves as a sort of reincarnation (historically speaking) of the first Jewish/Christians, as in the days when a Roman soldier who wanted to become a Christian had to get circumcised and give up pork–to become a Jew. So sorry–they have a historical precedent with which to square that circle. Jews do believe in heaven, and while not hell, somthing very similar to purgatory, and in reincarnation, the resurrection of the dead, a world to come, and even the transmigration of souls (which comes from Kabbalah).

I guess if you didn’t feel anything visceral when you read the words “and worship a god that does not save,” then my experiment in mutual perspective taking didn’t really give you any insight. If it did, then maybe you have a better idea about how many Jews felt, myself included, when I read her words.

smellthecoffee on October 11, 2007 at 11:28 PM

cliff notes???

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 11:35 PM

got no.

smellthecoffee on October 11, 2007 at 11:38 PM

Thank you for that lesson.

Bill C on October 12, 2007 at 12:16 AM

Thanks for reading ;-)

smellthecoffee on October 12, 2007 at 12:26 AM

I did. Don’t understand what your getting at in the above cited post. Please explain.

Bill C on October 12, 2007 at 12:25 AM

You’re asking which part of my loong post related to this question

She simple stated Christian dogma. Who doesn’t know that Christians think their religion is the path to heaven? Bill C on October 12, 2007 at 12:08 AM

(I hope I’ve got the right one–they’re coming in out of chronological sequence so I’m getting mixed up)?

My point was that it’s the theology itself, which is abc of Christianity, as you noted, it is that she isn’t concerned about any repercussions that might come from Jews (we’re leaving the libs and the media out for now), which, for me, highlights an old problem for Jews, which is that they didn’t have any social or political power, and had to be very careful about what they said about Christianity (Talmuds were burned in huge quantity in the middle ages because of statements that angered the church, and ultimately the Talmud was censored}. Even in our day, serious Jews (again, not the Rob Reinhart, Babs Streisand variety), tend to be careful about what they say about Christians and Christianity. I wrote the long post in response to Jailbones question, “Why have we not heard a theological response from any of our Jewish commenters? Don’t we have any?” Yes, but while some don’t respond because it’s out of their area of expertise, others are not responding out discomfort with the whole discussion. I was just noticing, and yes, resenting, the disparity between the absolute entitlement with which Ann Coulter unburdens herself of an idea with which a lot of Jews would be uncomfortable, and the cautiousness of many Jews, who take pains to keep similarly contentious theological statements out of view of those who might be hurt of offended by them. The statements in the Aleinu are Jewish abc to Jews who are knowledgeable about their tradition. But you’ve never seen them before, right? Do you see what I’m saying?

smellthecoffee on October 12, 2007 at 12:58 AM

Do the Jews of today follow what the Old Testament tells them to do? Anise, cumin? 10% tithing? Do Jews of today even know what that means? I doubt it. They are smug, thinking they are the “children of God” and they will be taken care of, without even being aware of how God totally abandoned them in the Old Testament, sending them His son, trying to save them.

Neocon Peg on October 11, 2007 at 9:34 PM

For somebody so ignorant, you’re pretty sure of yourself. Talk about smug. A little pot calling the kettle black.

Jews do believe in the “Old” Testament, known to us as the Torah, but since the destruction of the Temple, the sacrifices, animal and herbal (anise, cumin?) are no longer able to be offered. And yes we tithe, because it is a commandment that was not nullified by the destruction of the Temple. Yes, sadly, many Jews are ignorant of their heritage, just as many Christians do not know their own. We live in a very Godless time–plenty of it to go all around. As for “calling ourselves the ‘children of God’” I hardly think we do, or need to, since scripture (and many Christians) takes care of that for us. We also do not smugly think that we will be taken care of–where have you been for the last 60 years, woman? Taken care of? Hitler wanted to take care of us, and Achmydinnerjacket wants to take care of us, and Howard Baker wants us to talk to the Iranians. God will take care of us, in His way, but Israel sure as heck has a wicked anti-missile defense system. It’s pretty obvious to anyone paying attention, that our “chosen” status is more on the order of being chosen for certain obligations, rather than privileges. Most Jews are aware of the basic story of the life of Jesus, contrary to what you claim, and simply have the unmitigated temerity to believe differently about the Christian claims of divinity vested in Jesus. I don’t appreciate your animus–some might even say, not me of course, that it isn’t Christian.

Animal sacrifice was stopped duing the time of Isaiah. Read Isaiah 1:11. The people were not doing it with the right heart and not out of a real sense of repentance. So God told them to stop.

pedestrian on October 12, 2007 at 12:28 AM

Godfrey Daniels, folks. Judaism didn’t stop in the “Old Testament.” Ever heard of the 2nd Temple–you know, the one Jesus threw the money changers out of? The one Herod famously renovated? Jews were sacrificing aplenty in that Temple, too. You can’t learn Judaism out of the Bible. Academics (not me, heaven forfend) claim that the terms “Judaism,” and “Jews,” don’t even apply until the late 2nd Temple period, in the last centuries BC. Before that, they refer to it as “the Israelite religion,” and the Jews as “Israelites.” You won’t find the word Jew or Judaism in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) at all.

smellthecoffee on October 12, 2007 at 1:28 AM