Coulter: Jews will be “perfected” when they become Christians

posted at 2:53 pm on October 11, 2007 by Allahpundit

I’m only linking this because we haven’t had a good Coulter throwdown in the comments lately, and plus it gives me a chance to link Omri Ceren’s eloquent diagnosis of the left’s bed-wetting over it. Breaking news: Christians believe all people ideally should be Christians.

COULTER: Well, OK, take the Republican National Convention. People were happy. They’re Christian. They’re tolerant. They defend America, they —

DEUTSCH: Christian — so we should be Christian? It would be better if we were all Christian?

COULTER: Yes.

DEUTSCH: We should all be Christian?

COULTER: Yes. Would you like to come to church with me, Donny?…

COULTER: No, we think — we just want Jews to be perfected, as they say.

DEUTSCH: Wow, you didn’t really say that, did you?

COULTER: Yes. That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express. You have to obey laws. We know we’re all sinners —

DEUTSCH: In my old days, I would have argued — when you say something absurd like that, there’s no —

COULTER: What’s absurd?

DEUTSCH: Jews are going to be perfected. I’m going to go off and try to perfect myself —

COULTER: Well, that’s what the New Testament says.

You all would know better than I but that is, basically, what the New Testament says, isn’t it? She’s not talking about forcible conversion; she’s saying Christians believe the Judeo-Christian tradition is The Way and those who don’t follow the path all the way to the end aren’t quite where they need to be. (There are even Catholic prayers to this effect.) The word “perfected” is dicey insofar as it implies Christians’ superiority to Jews but she’s only referring to doctrinal superiority as far as I can see, which isn’t exactly a bombshell assertion coming from a Christian. Does the left really mean to suggest she thinks it’s Jews, uniquely, who need to be perfected but Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. are all already co-equal with Christians spiritually? I take it she’d say we’re not even on the path at all and thus, unlike Jews, for the moment entirely unperfectable.

Well, no matter. The left’s tolerance brigades see their opportunity and they’re going to take it.

Exit question assurance to our Jewish readers: We atheists love you just the way you are, baby.


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frreal on October 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM

If Coulter thinks that Jews must become Christians to be “perfected”, then she must consider atheists to be beyond all hope. I wonder how she would have taken it if Hitchens had said that Christians must become atheists to be “perfected”. Of course Muslims say that Christians and atheists and Buddists and Jews, etc. must become Muslim, and the right stain strain of Muslim, to be “perfected” or in many cases to even live. I’m not even sure that they would give Jews the chance to convert.

MB4 on October 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM

If it were Atheists that Coulter was claiming superiority over, then there would be no controversy at all.

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:08 PM

There was no claim of superiority. You say you are an ex-Christian, then I would think you would understand that Christianity believes ALL are sinners. All who accept Christ will be perfected in Christ’s love, there is no insult in that. You can disagree with it and that is fine, but there is no reason to be offended.

Maxx on October 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM

Before I get banned I will quit this ‘conversation’ with a last word…………Jerusalem, my rifle, and my brotherhood his with you.

Pious? Sacrilegious? I don’t care. I know what I stand for and I’ll gladly lay that on God’s scale. Evanglicals: don’t come knocking at my door.

Limerick on October 11, 2007 at 4:25 PM

ThackerAgency on October 11, 2007 at 3:57 PM and Debbie Schlussel got it right from both perspectives.

What amazes me the most is that so many posters here really think the “perfection” comment is claiming superiority over other people. Christians talk about the need for perfection of themselves through Christ all the time.

I expect the left to twist someone’s words to put them in the worst possible light, but I’m surprised that conservatives can’t give other conservatives the benefit of the doubt.

And can we all agree that stating one’s own religious opinion is not analogous to “forcing” religion down someone’s throat? Let’s try to perfect ourselves from using leftist rhetorical tactics.

Nosferightu on October 11, 2007 at 4:27 PM

There was no claim of superiority. You say you are an ex-Christian, then I would think you would understand that Christianity believes ALL are sinners.

Please search back in the thread and find my first post.

All who accept Christ will be perfected in Christ’s love, there is no insult in that.

You’re adding to what Ann said. She said that Christians were “perfected Jews”, meaning that Jews hadn’t been “perfected” yet (like Christians had), meaning they were worse off, inferior, second-class. I don’t know what “perfected in Christ’s love” means. Are you perfected or not? If you’re perfected, then you’re made perfect and better off than the imperfect Jews.

You can disagree with it and that is fine, but there is no reason to be offended.

Maxx on October 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM

I’m not offended at all. I just think you’re in between a rock and hard place for the reasons I’ve mentioned several times already. Do I need to explain again why Ann’s words are controversial?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:30 PM

MB4 on October 11, 2007 at 4:23 PM

She speaks of the perfection of Judaism because of the deep connection with Christianity, but more so because Deutsch first brought up the question that should he as a Jew become Christian(to which she then stated some tenets of Christianity and first used the word perfection).

geckomon on October 11, 2007 at 4:30 PM

I wish she would just shut the h*ll up and go away. Unfortunately, the odds of that are exactly zero.

Clark1 on October 11, 2007 at 4:31 PM

As a religious, and observant Jew I AM NOT OFFENDED BY THIS IN THE LEAST. After all, if I don’t convert, according to Christian doctrine I’d be going to hell right???? That’s someone’s belief. Great. I don;t care what someone believes, I care how they act. Behaviour is the most important aspect in Judaism. Since Ann is not calling for the annhilation of the Jews, or forced conversions, or an Inquisition, this is really a NON-STORY.

The NJDC ought to read the Torah and Talmud and become familiar with Jewish thought instead of condemning Ann for no reason at all. This was not an anti-semitic remark. Unless of course you think every Christian is anti-semitic. (Hint: they are not)

Andy in Agoura Hills on October 11, 2007 at 4:34 PM

The basic fallacy of “religious tolerance” revealed. Do you believe your religion is true? Then all others must be false, unless you ascribe to some namby-pamby new-age catch-all like the Episcopalians (kidding).

Someone dares to say it out loud? Shocking.

Provocative and non-productive, but what do you expect from her? She’s like a PG-Rated GOP version of Howard Stern.

peski on October 11, 2007 at 4:35 PM

Ann is a lawyer by profession, not a theologian. I wouldn’t expect her to know how to explain Christian theology to someone who may be willing to object to almost anything she says anyway.

She explained Christianity adequately. I guess I should say adequately enough for me. I am not going to pick apart every little thing she said.

As a Christian if I don’t believe my faith is the only one that leads to God then I have no reason being a Christian. The same would be true for Judaism or the Muslim faiths.

If my faith in Christ isn’t what saves me from eternal damnation, like the Bible says then why bother? Every day I practice my religion I am working on being perfected in Christ. I am not a perfect person. Christ was the only perfect person. My job as a Christian is to bring the Good News to people who haven’t heard it.

Terri on October 11, 2007 at 4:35 PM

Will all the people who

a) have any kind of either religious or non-religious belief,
b) believe their beliefs or non-beliefs are superior to conflicting beliefs/non-beliefs, and
c) are not utter hypocrites

please raise your hands.

Thought so.

thejackal on October 11, 2007 at 4:36 PM

That pic is really scary, going for the Queen Elizabeth/Anime thing.

americaslaststand on October 11, 2007 at 4:36 PM

And this, to you, is not disrespectful toward Jesus Christ? How can that be?

Dude, you’re doing with this exactly what the reactionaries are doing with it, only you’re coming from the other side: both of you are running and yelling, “See! Jews! Jews! She’s picking on the Jews!”

Sin is “disrespectful toward Christ,” (boy, there’s an understatement). Deutsch is Jewish, Coulter knows this and thus used that as the personal link to her doctrinal conviction.

If she had been interviewed by Hitchens it would have sounded much the same. But you, like her other critics, are turning it into a Jew-bashing (which you seem to dig) outrage, which it most certainly is not.

You’re right about what Jews believe to be the case about Christ. But she most certainly was not “putting them down,” nor attempting to point out some sort of disrespect of Jesus that is peculiar to them and not to all others who see Jesus as something other than the Messiah. And that is the point.

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:37 PM

I wish she would just shut the h*ll up and go away. Unfortunately, the odds of that are exactly zero.

Clark1 on October 11, 2007 at 4:31 PM

But of course you mean that in the kindest most gentle free speech for me but not for Ann kind of way, right? How’s that thing about switching channels go?

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:38 PM

I guess I don’t understand. Are you saying because the Jews study the Old Testament that they are belivers in Jesus as the Messiah?

submarine_guy on October 11, 2007 at 4:15 PM

Jews revere the word of God. It was revealed later on that Jesus is the Word, so to a Christian they are one and the same, even though Jews don’t believe so. While Jesus did tell people to follow him, he never asked anyone to worship him as a human.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 4:39 PM

There are sects of Judaism that teach the perfection or completion of a Jewish person, is by becoming a Christian / accepting that Jesus is the King of the Jews.

That statement isn’t really a big deal.

americaslaststand on October 11, 2007 at 4:40 PM

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:37 PM

This is me laughing at you…Hah hah hah hah hah…Why? you’re arguing with Loundry, on the only subject he ever posts here about…His unbridled hatred of Christianity…Nothing you say, period is going to change his mind or position, his sole purpose here is to insult Christianity and those who practice it.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM

This is me laughing at you…Hah hah hah hah hah…Why? you’re arguing with Loundry, on the only subject he ever posts here about…His unbridled hatred of Christianity…Nothing you say, period is going to change his mind or position, his sole purpose here is to insult Christianity and those who practice it.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM

What a psycho this guy is.

Andy in Agoura Hills on October 11, 2007 at 4:43 PM

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM

And I thought he was just an ass.

geckomon on October 11, 2007 at 4:43 PM

Since Ann is not calling for the annhilation of the Jews, or forced conversions, or an Inquisition, this is really a NON-STORY. Andy in Agoura Hills on October 11, 2007 at 4:34 PM

That’s kind of Hirsi Ali’s (an atheist) point about modern Catholicism and Judaism as opposed to Islam, in the interview (linked here at HotAir) with Reason Mag

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:44 PM

Jews revere the word of God. It was revealed later on that Jesus is the Word, so to a Christian they are one and the same, even though Jews don’t believe so. While Jesus did tell people to follow him, he never asked anyone to worship him as a human.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 4:39 PM

So do you believe He is or He is not God, because if He is wouldn’t that call for worship. While on earth He humbled Himself and placed the Father over Himself as an exapmle to us. That doesn’t mean He should’t be worshipped now.

submarine_guy on October 11, 2007 at 4:45 PM

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Thanks for the heads up! Though, I’m over ever trying to convince anybody of anything. I just put stuff out there for the record. Plus, I think Ann Coulter is the finest commentator out there. Even when she’s wrong, she’s right. I must be whipped …

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Ann just said what many Christians believe. It’s our way or the highway. As Debbie Shlussel said above, Ann doesn’t have an anti-Semitic bone in her body, she just wants others to believe in what she believes. It’s not an attack on anyone. People of other faiths believe theirs is the correct way and don’t hate Christians because of it. This is a non issue being drummeds up mostly by those who want God out of America all together. Just another bandwagon to jump on.

roninacreage on October 11, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Evanglicals: don’t come knocking at my door.

Limerick on October 11, 2007 at 4:25 PM

American Evangelicals, stay away from me
American Evangelicals, just let me be
Don’t come knocking at my door
I don’t want to have you in my face no more
I got more important things to do
Than spend my time listening to you
Now Evangelicals, stay away
American Evangelicals, listen what I say

I gotta go
American Evangelicals
Yeah

- The Guess Who

MB4 on October 11, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Are you perfected or not? If you’re perfected, then you’re made perfect and better off than the imperfect Jews.

Hebrews 10:13-14 “Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.”

We were made perfect before we were even born. It doesn’t mean we are better than anyone else, it’s just that God chose us, and through Christ’s sacrifice has made us acceptable to be in his presence. Jews are in almost the same position, but were chosen as a people before Christ’s appearance on Earth.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Dude, you’re doing with this exactly what the reactionaries are doing with it, only you’re coming from the other side: both of you are running and yelling, “See! Jews! Jews! She’s picking on the Jews!”

No, that’s not what I’m saying at all.

I’m saying that the dialog goes like this:

You: Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Jews: No, he isn’t the messiah. He’s a fraud / myth. And you’re wrong, you don’t need him to be saved.

And I’m asking you, how is the beliefs of the Jews NOT disrespectful toward Jesus Christ?

Wait, I can make it even easier for you to answer.

Is calling Jesus Christ a fraud/myth and claiming that he can’t save you:

A) respectful toward Jesus Christ
B) disrespectful toward Jesus Christ

Pick one, A or B.

(My prediction: You will chicken out and change the subject.)

Sin is “disrespectful toward Christ,”

You’re repeating yourself.

If she had been interviewed by Hitchens it would have sounded much the same. But you, like her other critics, are turning it into a Jew-bashing (which you seem to dig) outrage, which it most certainly is not.

The very essence of Christianity bashes everyone who isn’t a Christian (Christians get eternal bliss while everyone else gets eternal torture in hell, which they richly deserve). The only reason why this is a controversy is because it’s a cultural no-no to demean Jews. Atheists are fair game and you know it.

You’re right about what Jews believe to be the case about Christ. But she most certainly was not “putting them down,”

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:37 PM

I disagree. She said that she was a “perfected Jew” which means that Jews are in the “imperfect”, lesser, second-class position. Is that supposed to be uplifting toward Jews? Is that supposed to be a humble position for Christians to take? How is that not an elitist attitude for Christians to take?

Or let me put it more bluntly. Are you better off than the Jews?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:48 PM

This will be twisted the same way Limbaughs phoney soldiers remark was.

roninacreage on October 11, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Some Random Thoughts.

Gee, Christians think Jews should become Christian – shocka! At least Christians have eschewed the whole “Convert or Die” attitude of the inquisition. That would now be the province of the ROP.

As a matter of basic Jewish philosophy, Ann is right that it is easier for a gentile to gain a share in the world to come than a Jew. Jews have a Torah with 613 commandments to learn and keep. Judaism teaches that gentiles need only keep 7 commandments: (1) Monotheism, (2) Rejection of idolatry, (3) No adultery or other sexual immorality, (4) No murder, (5) No stealing, (6) Establishing courts of law, and (7)No cruelty to animals.

Observant Jews will be no more surprised, offended or threatened by Ann’s comments than they are by Evangelicals’ support of Israel (which is greatly appreciated).

A Jew is someone with a Jewish mother regardless of their beliefs (or someone converted according to Jewish law). Unless they fall into one of the above two categories a person is not a Jew, regardless of their beliefs.

LEAVE ANN ALONE!

ncc770 on October 11, 2007 at 4:54 PM

AP, this is just you doing Media Matters’ work for them

urbancenturion on October 11, 2007 at 4:55 PM

We were made perfect before we were even born.

The verse from Hebrews you quoted is nebulous. In any case, it doesn’t speak about being made perfect before you were born. You were born with a “sin nature” due to Adam’s sin, not “perfect”. Furthermore, what Ann was talking about was being “perfected” through being a Christian. After all, she was a “perfected Jew” while Donny (and, presumably, all other Jews) were just regular, imperfect, lower-class Jews.

It doesn’t mean we are better than anyone else, it’s just that God chose us, and through Christ’s sacrifice has made us acceptable to be in his presence.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Blah, blah, blah. Are you perfected or not? Out with it! And if you’re perfected compared to someone else, how are you not better off than they are?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:56 PM

While no fan of Ms. Coulter, I defend Ann’s right to express her opinion and belief that her religion is the best.

She was being clever trying to draw a response from Deutsch, which she did. He was astounded that she could express what is stated in the Christian texts. Memo to the world of the sane….all religions do that.

Does anyone take offense when the Jews refer to themselves as God’s “chosen ones”? No of course not. To do so would be deemed as anti-Semitic.

Her point was that Christians have no right in this country lauding their own faith and that Christians are fair game to Jews, Muslims and atheists alike.

That is the reality in this PC-riddled country we live in.

awake on October 11, 2007 at 4:58 PM

First of all, Loundry, “disrespect” and “respect” are not the right word to use. Many Rabbi’s “respect” Jesus, but reject the claim of Messiah.

Disobedient is the better word, and yes, Jews that reject Christ’s claim to be the Savior of the world are being disobedient to the Christian message — or Christ, if you prefer.

Of course, to any literate who is not simply out to be a shit-disturber, this is no great shock or revelation. But you appear to want to make more of it than it is worth. You ought to be at home at MediaMatters.

The Jews’ rejection of Jesus’ claim to be the Messiah is no different from anybody else’s, the peculiar and historically profound place that the Jews play in the the story of God’s salvation of the world, notwithstanding.

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 4:58 PM

This will be twisted the same way Limbaughs phoney soldiers remark was.

roninacreage on October 11, 2007 at 4:49 PM

It doesn’t need to be twisted. This part of Christian theology is ugly on its face.

1. Christians are better off than atheists who stupidly reject Christ.

2. Christians are better off than the Jews who stupidly reject Christ.

Christians, affirm that 1 and 2 (above) are both true.

Which one (1 or 2) is more offensive and why?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:59 PM

So do you believe He is or He is not God, because if He is wouldn’t that call for worship. While on earth He humbled Himself and placed the Father over Himself as an exapmle to us. That doesn’t mean He should’t be worshipped now.

submarine_guy on October 11, 2007 at 4:45 PM

I was raised in a Jewish family, but I became Christian much later, because when I finally understood the Christian theology of the Bible, as opposed to the stuff that floats around pretending to be Christian, I realized that the explanation given in the New Testament made more sense to me than the Jewish interpretations I was taught when I was young. It’s important to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, but God did make a convenant with the Jewish people, and he continues to give them faith as a sign of their salvation.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 5:00 PM

Romans 11 what Ann meant:

Israel’s Rejection not Complete nor Final

So I ask, God has not rejected his people, has he? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew! Do you not know what the scripture says about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left and they are seeking my life!” But what was the divine response to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.”

So in the same way at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if it is by grace, it is no longer by works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was diligently seeking, but the elect obtained it. The rest were hardened, as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear,
to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see,
and make their backs bend continually.”

I ask then, they did not stumble into an irrevocable fall, did they? Absolutely not! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make Israel jealous. Now if their transgression means riches for the world and their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full restoration bring?

Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Seeing that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I could provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first portion of the dough offered is holy, then the whole batch is holy, and if the root is holy, so too are the branches.

Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God – harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And even they – if they do not continue in their unbelief – will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins.”

In regard to the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but in regard to election they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable. Just as you were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how fathomless his ways!

For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?
Or who has first given to God,
that God needs to repay him?

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever! Amen.

VinceP1974 on October 11, 2007 at 5:03 PM

Within the realm of theological conversation about who has the best religion, Ann’s comments are fine—“root, root, root for the home team”. However, if you also want to assert that American is a Christian nation, and if by implication you are less perfectly American by not being Christian that would seem to be untenable.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 5:03 PM

VinceP1974 on October 11, 2007 at 5:03 PM

A simple link might have sufficed.?

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:04 PM

I was raised in a Jewish family, but I became Christian much later, because when I finally understood the Christian theology of the Bible, as opposed to the stuff that floats around pretending to be Christian, I realized that the explanation given in the New Testament made more sense to me than the Jewish interpretations I was taught when I was young. It’s important to accept the sacrifice of Jesus, but God did make a convenant with the Jewish people, and he continues to give them faith as a sign of their salvation.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not a believer in Christian replacement theology, but I think when Jesus says I am the way that means I am the way. I believe God will fulfill His promises to His chosen people, the Jews, but they still need to except Christ as their savior. Most Jews will come to except Jesus during the Great tribulation.

submarine_guy on October 11, 2007 at 5:05 PM

she’s still hot…

Biffstir on October 11, 2007 at 5:06 PM

While no fan of Ms. Coulter, I defend Ann’s right to express her opinion and belief that her religion is the best.

If she was asserting that her race was the best, that would also be her right but would be a comment deserving of rebuke.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 5:06 PM

I rememeber, months back, saying that Ann Coulter needs to just GO AWAY, because she’s become an embarrassment to conservatives and just one of the big symbols that the other side uses now to propagandize how all conservatives are just as ridiculious as she is. And I remember many people, even here, criticizing me for it.

I feel, again, more vindicated, now that she’s opened up her mouth and said something pathologically stupid yet again.

ENOUGH. I’m beyond sick of the gimmick. She’s becoming the conservative, female version of Howard Stern: not so much with the tired sexual talk, but willing to say anything outrageous just so long as it gets her press. Only I think Ann might actually be a true believer of a lot of the nonsense she spouts these days.

Vyce on October 11, 2007 at 5:07 PM

Blah, blah, blah. Are you perfected or not? Out with it! And if you’re perfected compared to someone else, how are you not better off than they are?

I’ll answer it: absolutely! This is the Gospel. God no longer sees my lame a$$ when he looks at me, but rather the perfected and completed work of Christ. It’s kind of a paradox — it’s (sort of) like Michelangelo seeing the Pieta even while it was still a chunk of marble and not yet the completed masterpiece.

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:08 PM

Also, Loundry, I answered your other post, but I used a bad word and it’s awaiting moderation. That’ll teach me.

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:09 PM

And if you’re perfected compared to someone else, how are you not better off than they are?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 4:56 PM

I constantly thank God that he chose me, and at the same time I realize I deserve his favor no more than anyone else. It’s just that in his perfect plan, someone like me is needed in the right place and time in order to demonstrate the extent of his glory. The Jews as a people and individually obviously play a huge role in the salvation of the world, and continue to do so today.

In order for us to play a role that brings glory to God, he must have created us very carefully to both exhibit human sin and acceptance of his grace. It is his plan for us that is perfect, and not us individually.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 5:12 PM

As a Southern Baptist married to a Jew, I can only speak on my beliefs and opinions. I regularly attend temple and have had bar mitzvahs for two of my three sons.
If Ann believes that, she is entitled to her opinion just like the rest of us. As far as I know she has not advocated the forceful conversion of anyone.
If more people would actually say what they mean, at least we would know where they stand and whether or not we want to stand with them.
Funny story about Southern Baptists and Jews. My wife and I were living in a northern Chicago Suburb that was heavily populated by Jews (our friends). They often poked fun at me because I owned a gun (or two) and made it a point to tell me that guns made them nervous. One day and armed man was spotted in the neighborhood and they locked down the school. I got 6 phone calls asking if they could come to my house where they knew they would be safe.
Just goes to show that safety trumps all.
I case I didn’t make myself very clear..I stand with the Jews but people…lighten up.

Suburbandad on October 11, 2007 at 5:14 PM

I don’t have a problem with what she said. She may be referring to this passage from the New Testament…

But what does Debbie Schlussel think? She’;s the first one to scream anti-semitism in a crowded theater when it involves The Left.

Curious to see if she is consistent.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:14 PM

Heck, I think I’d rather have a Muslim that followed the good teachings in Islam and none of the bad …

Vanceone on October 11, 2007 at 3:06 PM

If you had that, you’d have a Jew or a Christian. ;)

Connie on October 11, 2007 at 5:15 PM

If she was asserting that her race was the best, that would also be her right but would be a comment deserving of rebuke.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 5:06 PM

Agreed, but she didn’t say that. All religious denominations think they are the best. If they think another one is better, they convert to it. You can’t convert out of a race, however.

Therein lies the difference.

awake on October 11, 2007 at 5:15 PM

This is me laughing at you…Hah hah hah hah hah…Why? you’re arguing with Loundry, on the only subject he ever posts here about…His unbridled hatred of Christianity…Nothing you say, period is going to change his mind or position, his sole purpose here is to insult Christianity and those who practice it.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 4:42 PM

I have actually posted about several other things here other than Christianity. But I will easily admit that most of my traffic on this web site involves fighting with Christians.

Why? Because Christians engage me on the topic. And I respond to them. Hence, it consumes a lot of my posts.

It’s also a subject that interests me. I think that there is room in the conservative movement for people who think that Christianity is a crappy religion. Perhaps you disagree, and that’s fine. I don’t expect you to think that atheism rules. But one thing is for certain: just because this is a conservative board doesn’t mean you get free reign to treat the Bible and Jesus Christ as the ultimate authority on everything. You and your faith will be challenged, and I know the Bible very, very well.

And because I know the Bible, then I know that you expect the World to hate and reject you. I suggest that you put on the full armor of your God if it makes you feel better, but rest assured that I will not put up with your religious abuse. An eye for an eye! As long as you treat yourself as a pious, superior Christian who has the right to wed his religious belief with the deadly force of government then every single aspect of your precious, tender faith is fair game to me. Christians drew first blood, so you can’t fault me for taking your “spiritual war” every bit as seriously as you do.

I’m just letting you know where I stand. And, for the record, if you want to live with me as Americans in mutual respect, you as a Christian and me as an atheist, then I’m completely willing to accept. I just don’t think you’re nearly ready to give up your elite position.

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 5:16 PM

Vyce on October 11, 2007 at 5:07 PM

If you think anything Ann said was pathologically stupid, then you are one or more of the following

a) not a Christian,
b) ignorant of Christian theology, or
c) ashamed of your Christian faith.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:16 PM

I disagree. She said that she was a “perfected Jew” which means that Jews are in the “imperfect”, lesser, second-class position.

Ah, I get it now, Loundry. You’re an illiterate. You have no understanding of Christian theology. If you did, you would not be asking these specific questions, nor would you be making a case out of Coulter’s point in the interview.

On the other hand, if you are literate with regard to Christian theology, you are more to be pitied than anyone I can presently think of (with the exception of Ahmadinejad), for you are a sophist, a snake-oil salesman, the very opposite of a peacemaker.

Answer a fool according to his folly; answer not a fool according to his folly. Maybe it’s time for the latter.

Shame on you.

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Don’t get me wrong, I am not a believer in Christian replacement theology, but I think when Jesus says I am the way that means I am the way. I believe God will fulfill His promises to His chosen people, the Jews, but they still need to except Christ as their savior. Most Jews will come to except Jesus during the Great tribulation.

submarine_guy on October 11, 2007 at 5:05 PM

I think the reaction to Ann Coulter’s remarks is that they are thinking she is a replacement theology Christian (like Jimmy Carter). But that’s not what she said.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 5:19 PM

I’ll answer it: absolutely! This is the Gospel.

It’s elitist and proud of you to think that you’re better off than other people.

It’s kind of a paradox

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:08 PM

It’s bad theology. Can’t you have a religion and a god that doesn’t put you on on a pedestal, looking down on other people?

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 5:20 PM

Messed up the blockquote.

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 5:20 PM

She’s becoming the conservative, female version of Howard Stern

Good analogy. They are both freakishly tall and thin. I find Stern more sincere, though, in that ultimately he (or his persona) ultimately and unapologetically is the thing that shocks us—a 50ish guy who is preoccupied with the same vulgar thoughts he was when he was 15. I think Ann is more calculating and is trying to leverage controversial quotes to bring an large audience around to arguments that she believes deserve to be mainstream.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 5:21 PM

Ah, I get it now, Loundry. You’re an illiterate. You have no understanding of Christian theology. If you did, you would not be asking these specific questions, nor would you be making a case out of Coulter’s point in the interview.

I understand Christian theology quite well, which is why I reject it. But I also think that the “perfected” bit is controversial. When I was a Christian, I would have regarded it as unbiblical because only Christ is perfect. Some Christians on this thread agree with that.

At the same time, other Christians feel like Christ does, in fact, make you perfect. If you agree with it, then it puts you in the uncomfortable position of being forced to admit that you’re better off than the Jews who are imperfect in comparison to you Christians on your pedestal, gleaming white and pure.

Loundry on October 11, 2007 at 5:25 PM

She’s becoming the conservative, female version of Howard Stern

Or the female version of Michael Savage….

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:26 PM

jesus wasn’t god and moses never existed.

jummy on October 11, 2007 at 5:26 PM

without even aknowleging this phoney 24-hour media flu du jour, i shal now quote barry goldwater:

“There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerfull ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus, God, or Allah, or whatever one calls the supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A,B,C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism. ”

“Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you’ve hurt the Republican Party much more than the Democrats have.”

jummy on October 11, 2007 at 5:30 PM

If you think anything Ann said was pathologically stupid, then you are one or more of the following

a) not a Christian,
b) ignorant of Christian theology, or
c) ashamed of your Christian faith.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:16 PM

I’m a jew and she is an attention grabbing publicity whore.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:31 PM

Drum on October 11, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Actually according to Loundry his grasp of Christian theology is superior to everyone on this board, he has said so himself several times.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:32 PM

Short of the Rock band KISS very few people have ever played the publicity game better than Ann, being mad at her for being really good at her vocation is, well silly.

Can’t wait for the Coulter comic book and action figure.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 5:33 PM

Andy in Agoura Hills on October 11, 2007 at 4:34 PM

Well said, Andy. My sense is that Deutche’s indignation, faux or real, doesn’t speak to his knowledge of Christian doctrine, it speaks to his lack of knowledge of Jewish doctrine.

I am a Christian. In my theology, I am a direct spiritual descendant of the Jews, God’s chosen people. It is always disappointing to know how few people understand that.

Jaibones on October 11, 2007 at 5:34 PM

If Ann said the sky is blue some bedwetting leftist would be offended.

peacenprosperity on October 11, 2007 at 5:34 PM

I believe everyone would be better off if they surfed. Have I offended any nonsurfers?

peacenprosperity on October 11, 2007 at 5:35 PM

I’m a jew and she is an attention grabbing publicity whore.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:31 PM

Let’s see, correct me if I’m mistaken, but a) not a Christian pretty much covers you. Now why don’t you tell me what it is that you do for a living and why exactly you adhere to the practice of only doing the absolute bare minimum required to satisfy your employer?

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:36 PM

I always thought it was “completed” Jew.

Go ask a Messianic Jew, they will consider themselves that, so what is the difference?

Kind of silly that everyone else gets to tell you what they believe, except Christians, then it’s just too “offensive”.

jjjen on October 11, 2007 at 5:37 PM

The NT teaches that in the future Israel will be restored to full fellowship with God, which means accepting their Messiah but that they maintain their national distinctiveness.

The OT has it written that the entire world will come to worship God and that Israel will be the people God uses to reveal himself.

Well that’s exactly who the Christians are.. the gentiles who’ve come to know God via Israel.

What Ann means by “perfected” means the time promised by God when God finally delivers on all his promises to them and then the Jews and Gentiles will all worship God in brotherly fellowship. The Jews retaining their identity and their station as the people through which God is known by the world.

VinceP1974 on October 11, 2007 at 5:37 PM

“There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerfull ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus, God, or Allah, or whatever one calls the supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A,B,C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism. ”

“Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you’ve hurt the Republican Party much more than the Democrats have.”

Thank you, now if we could lead the wingnuts away from the same trough that the moonbat population feeds from we could all rest assured that we will have many GOP wins in the years to come.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:37 PM

I’m a jew and she is an attention grabbing publicity whore.

AprilOrit

Coulter rocks. People hate her because they can’t argue what she says so they attack her personally.

Coulter/Ingraham ’08

darwin on October 11, 2007 at 5:38 PM

I am a Christian. In my theology, I am a direct spiritual descendant of the Jews, God’s chosen people. It is always disappointing to know how few people understand that.

Jaibones on October 11, 2007 at 5:34 PM

Heh heh heh first post in the thread and it took this long for someone to finally say the obvious…

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:38 PM

Mark Jaquith on October 11, 2007 at 4:05 PM

Mark, good to hear from you. Now, if you’ve completed your Ablution, correct me if I’m wrong. Wouldn’t New Testament theology say that Jews, Muslims, Agnostics, Hindus, Atheists — all are in the same “pecking order” in God’s eyes? That the acceptance of Christ as your Lord and Savior is the one submission (heh) required to fulfill God’s promise?

Jaibones on October 11, 2007 at 5:40 PM

Allahpundit: admit it, you are not really an atheist. An agnostic maybe, but not an atheist.

bosteed on October 11, 2007 at 5:43 PM

SO I wasn’t planning on buying Coulter’s book, but this conversation has sold her at least one more book. She clarified what she said… and that’s that. Allah chose to spin it in his own way.

IMO Allah has gotten alot worse lately, all Allah wants to do is bash Christians and Republicans who aren’t moderate/left leaning. It’s crap like Allah’s posts that will definitely cost the election… The idea is to win people over to your camp Allah, not tell them that they are outright wrong for listening to Dr James Dobson. People like Coulter and Dobson have a larger audience than you, and you are just dividing a faction of the base off…

Your a generally good pundit, and I have had alot of respect for you… but seriously, lay off the Christian base.

Canerican on October 11, 2007 at 5:46 PM

Let’s see, correct me if I’m mistaken, but a) not a Christian pretty much covers you. Now why don’t you tell me what it is that you do for a living and why exactly you adhere to the practice of only doing the absolute bare minimum required to satisfy your employer?

I can assure you I do not run through the hallways and offices of my job screaming look at me – I’m a Madonna wannabee provocatuer so make sure you spend your last dollar on me, me, me because I’m a Material Girl.

Your type huh? Figures, but when she’s here in NY they say she hangs with mostly gay guys. She prefers witty, quippy and that certain quality of a well dressed atrractive gay man that attends the various fund raisers that she attends, like for the ballet and Lincoln Center.

She’s no Christian while here in Rome let’s just say…

And what I do for a living is none of your concern, but thanks for asking.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:50 PM

You see, most of you are missing the point.

It’s not really whether Coulter is right or wrong, it’s that whenever she attempts to make a point she has to make it in the most obnoxious, sarcastic and assholey way possible.

Thus, she sells books.

SouthernDem on October 11, 2007 at 5:50 PM

Canerican on October 11, 2007 at 5:46 PM

i suppose you don’t actually have to read a post to comment on it.

especially when you have all the answers you’ll ever need in one book.

jummy on October 11, 2007 at 5:51 PM

I guess Ann didn’t get the memo about Jesus being a Jew.

SoulGlo on October 11, 2007 at 5:55 PM

IMO Allah has gotten alot worse lately, all Allah wants to do is bash Christians and Republicans who aren’t moderate/left leaning. It’s crap like Allah’s posts that will definitely cost the election… The idea is to win people over to your camp Allah, not tell them that they are outright wrong for listening to Dr James Dobson. People like Coulter and Dobson have a larger audience than you, and you are just dividing a faction of the base off…

E-L W-R-O-N-G-O. Allah seems left leaning because you are so Far Right you belong in The Constitution Party. You are not a Republican, you are in the GOP because Dr. Dobson and Dr Falwell before him, know/knew that a third party cannot get a candidate elected.

Leave Allah and the GOP alone, please, I am begging you, for the sake of The Grand Old Party, you’re are killing what’s left, please stop.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:56 PM

And what I do for a living is none of your concern, but thanks for asking.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:50 PM

Ha ha ha you’re such a contrarian. I didnt ask what you do for a living to make fun of you, but to point out that Ann makes her living by selling books. She is very good at what she does, anyone who makes their living by selling things needs to run around yelling …Hey look at me…Look at what I am selling… If you don’t, you don’t get noticed and you don’t sell anything. Don’t hate her because she is good at what she does…Thats like hating someone just because they are attractive, it only exposes you as shallow.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 5:57 PM

I guess Ann didn’t get the memo about Jesus being a Jew.

SoulGlo on October 11, 2007 at 5:55 PM

Here’s what the National Jewish Democratic Council has on their press release for an example of how offensive Ann is:

“It is not intended to be. I don’t think you should take it that way, but that is what Christians consider themselves: perfected Jews. We believe the Old Testament. As you know from the Old Testament, God was constantly getting fed up with humans for not being able to live up to all the laws. What Christians believe — this is just a statement of what the New Testament is — is that that’s why Christ came and died for our sins. Christians believe the Old Testament. You don’t believe our testament.”

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 5:57 PM

I guess Ann didn’t get the memo about Jesus being a Jew.

That would hardly matter to her at this point, she needs attention. I think she is afraid of Michelle and Laura Ingraham gaining on her.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:58 PM

Ha ha ha you’re such a contrarian. I didnt ask what you do for a living to make fun of you, but to point out that Ann makes her living by selling books.

Ha ha ha , Ann’s an old doll, she needs to move over and make room for the new younger fresher faces.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:59 PM

If you don’t, you don’t get noticed and you don’t sell anything. Don’t hate her because she is good at what she does…Thats like hating someone just because they are attractive, it only exposes you as shallow.

Hmmm, this conversation could easily be about Madonna or Britney….

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 6:00 PM

Ha ha ha , Ann’s an old doll, she needs to move over and make room for the new younger fresher faces.

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 5:59 PM

Why? It’s all about competition, if the new younger faces cant compete with Ann why should she move over and get out of the way. When a newer fresher face can steal Ann’s thunder and spot light they will.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 6:02 PM

I believe everyone would be better off if they surfed. Have I offended any nonsurfers?

Not if you didn’t actively try to replace their ancient religious beliefs. I met some surfers at Ho’okipa who would agree that surfing makes you better, but who also find more solace in the Hawaiian religions than in Christianity.

dedalus on October 11, 2007 at 6:03 PM

Why? It’s all about competition, if the new younger faces cant compete with Ann why should she move over and get out of the way. When a newer fresher face can steal Ann’s thunder and spot light they will.

They will? I think they already have….

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 6:03 PM

LEEEEV ANNE ALLOOOOONE!@!!!one

jummy on October 11, 2007 at 6:03 PM

I guess Ann didn’t get the memo about Jesus being a Jew.

SoulGlo on October 11, 2007 at 5:55 PM

If anything it is Deutsch, the NJDC, MediaMatters, and fellow travelers that haven’t gotten that memo. Any why NJFC is taking faxes from the anti-Semites at MediaMatters is something that I hope some the the Jewish commenters here could help shed some light on.

pedestrian on October 11, 2007 at 6:05 PM

Hmmm, this conversation could easily be about Madonna or Britney….

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 6:00 PM

It could be about anyone in the entertainment industry, as long as you have a product people are willing to buy, well then, whose to say they shouldn’t be allowed to? Whose to say as long as Ann’s shtick is still working that she should hang up her word processor and stay home?

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 6:05 PM

They will? I think they already have….

AprilOrit on October 11, 2007 at 6:03 PM

Her sales would seem to refute that.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 6:06 PM

We atheists love you just the way you are, baby.

Aww baby, we love you too. Even if you are a heathen.

Karol on October 11, 2007 at 6:07 PM

And I’m completely not offended by this.

Karol on October 11, 2007 at 6:09 PM

Canerican on October 11, 2007 at 5:46 PM

Oh don’t be ridiculous. Allah doesn’t need to toe the GOP line like a good little boy and he is the LAST reason why the Reps would lose the election. The GOP and Bush have done a great job on that themselves.

I suspect you wonder whether or not Michelle approves of this post.

SouthernDem on October 11, 2007 at 6:12 PM

Christianity would define itself as a fulfillment of Judaism, otherwise it would be… well, still Jewish.

Wouldn’t you agree, Mrs Malkin?

manwithblackhat on October 11, 2007 at 6:14 PM

Us Hebrews have been at this gig a long time, we’re not going anywhere. As the Doobie Brothers said ‘Jesus is just all right with me’, he was a Jew, lived not too far from me back in his day. Under Judaism he would be what we term a Rabbi, wise man, preacher of our faith, not unlike our many prophets.

He lived & witnessed one of the most tumultous times in Jewish History, walked the mount of our great temple. I think it’ll take more than Coulter to break these core bonds between Judaism & Christianity no offesne to her intended. Sorry, Libs.. This dog just won’t hunt.

saus on October 11, 2007 at 6:19 PM

I don’t like Coulter’s acerbic style and obvious predilection for shock treatments, but I don’t see how there can be any controversy over her content. By definition, a Christian must believe the words of God and Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, accept Jesus’ sacrifice as atonement for our sins, and repent (turn away from desiring sin and follow Jesus’ example). Jesus proclaimed himself as the fulfillment of numerous Old Testament prophecies of a Savior for the Jews. For various reasons, the Jews of the day didn’t/wouldn’t believe it, and the Jews of today still don’t/won’t believe it, so they go on waiting.

So, Coulter is merely explaining Christian theology. What the heck is the problem here? [That's rhetorical; the problem is so obvious I hesitate to mention it: nobody (including Jews) likes being told they're wrong or missed the boat. So now, Christian-bashers of all stripes are gleefully taking advantage of another teed-up opportunity to slam Christians. For us Christians, c'est la vie.]

Splashman on October 11, 2007 at 6:20 PM

Us Hebrews have been at this gig a long time, we’re not going anywhere. As the Doobie Brothers said ‘Jesus is just all right with me’, he was a Jew, lived not too far from me back in his day. Under Judaism he would be what we term a Rabbi, wise man, preacher of our faith, not unlike our many prophets.

He lived & witnessed one of the most tumultous times in Jewish History, walked the mount of our great temple. I think it’ll take more than Coulter to break these core bonds between Judaism & Christianity no offesne to her intended. Sorry, Libs.. This dog just won’t hunt.

saus on October 11, 2007 at 6:19 PM

Thank you…You and Defector01 remind me why I am so impressed with People of the Jewish faith.

doriangrey on October 11, 2007 at 6:25 PM

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