Open thread: The highest, lowest debate expectations evah; Video added: Rudy vs. Romney

posted at 3:35 pm on October 9, 2007 by Allahpundit

4 p.m. ET on CNBC, the elephant in the room finally speaks up. Why they decided to hold an event as momentous as this in the middle of the day, I have no idea. It’ll re-air tonight at 9 on MSNBC but highlights will be all over the web by then, I’m sure. If you’re not in front of a TV but want to watch, the livestream is being carried at CNBC.com.

The question of the hour: Are expectations for Fred sky high or knee high? I figured he’d need a star turn to rehabilitate himself with disappointed Republicans but the CW I’m seeing today is that if he doesn’t bore the audience into a stupor it’ll be considered a moral victory. Which is another way of saying that an unusually strong performance could turn the race on its head and an unusually weak one could sink his candidacy, which is why he’ll probably proceed cautiously to protect his second-place position and go for broke at a later debate if he has to.

While we wait, here’s Howard Kurtz theorizing that Rudy’s rudeness (i.e. pugnaciousness) is a major draw for Republicans, which is silly given that he’s gone out of his way not to show that side of himself during the campaign thus far. If he’s nominated and faces Hillary, you’ll see it in spades. Although I’m not sure it’ll matter — check out the trend in this Angus Reid poll. What was it Bill Kristol was saying yesterday about electability?

He’s still got a fairly healthy lead over Fred, though, whose own trends aren’t encouraging. We’ll see how that looks tomorrow. At least one important number is about to change dramatically — or is it? Mitt’s been in every debate thus far but judging from those figures the public must think he’s part of the set.

As always, sound off below if you’re watching and e-mail us if you see something that deserves to be clipped. An unlikely but possible subplot to watch out for: the candidates smacking Chris Matthews for his comments about Republican “criminals” last week and Matthews, eager to prove his alleged independence, smacking back. Even money says that if anyone does it, it’s Huckabee.

Update: The Rudy/Mitt feud bubbles up over the line-item veto, culminating in a clever applause line for Giuliani. I think he’s right about the LIV.

Link: sevenload.com


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Thompson looking good. Hunter is looking good. Mccain looks old. Mitt and Rudy are bickering like a clutch of hens.

unseen on October 9, 2007 at 4:28 PM

That’s enough for me…I’ll watch the highlights sometime…maybe…

Ochlan on October 9, 2007 at 4:28 PM

LegendHasIt on October 9, 2007 at 4:27 PM

The court ruled that it was unconstitutional because the Constitution only allows the President to veto a bill if he strikes down the entire bill – not parts of it.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

“as president I’ll fix um” -hey

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

Fred looks sleepy. The anchors are treating this as a two-man race, Rudy and Mitt.

rivlax on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

McCain said what??????? Make up the difference?

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

I don’t know if thats a paternity issue or a criminal issue.

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

I’d ask for an unbiased opinion on how it’s going, but I’m smart enough to know that such a thing does not exist.

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

Manufacturing tax rate in Ireland is around 7%. Can’t compete against that with up to 35% in some places here.

Entelechy on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

Hollowpoint,

Well, they all seem to be awake. Maybe doing a debate in the middle of the day isn’t such a bad thing.

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

I’d ask for an unbiased opinion on how it’s going, but I’m smart enough to know that such a thing does not exist.

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

They’re all better than Hillary…

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

Did McCain just say that we (the government) needs to pay whatever the difference is between and elderly person’s new job and their old job?

StoutRepublican on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

There you BC, that’s the issue. We have to cause the markets to be open on both sides.

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:27 PM

We need to get China to loosen up on it currency devaluation, but you aren’t gonna do it in an aggro manner like Hunter wants, you’ll cause bigger problems than you will solve them.

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

It was struck down by a six justice majority, including Kennedy.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:29 PM

Thanks. I guess I’d better read it again… I thought I had a good grasp of it; Obviously I do not. (Shamed)

LegendHasIt on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

I’ll give you one. Rudy is punching heavy today. Paul went wheels of first answer. Mitt is fighting back, but done a blow or two. Hunter and Fred had a disagreement over trade, but Fred should want to fight Mitt or Rudy not a 2nd-3rd tier. McCain looking steady and strong.

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

That’s what I heard Stout!

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:31 PM

The questions are better than I expected them to be.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

I have a hard time listening to Mitt… too slick

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Matthews dreams of the good old days of a single wage earner in the home and asks will we ever return to the days when the wife won’t have to work, and she can stay home with the children.

Guess he never heard of the feminist movement.

fogw on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

Mitt is as usal well prepared and logical, rudy is holding his own, hunter is doing well on trade, fred is holding his own and sounds alive, huckabee got some good licks in on Fair tax, Paul is an idiot, Mccain looks tired and old and confused.

unseen on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Jeez, Tancredo is wearing his illegal-alien-coloured glasses again.

Not everything is related to illegal immigration, Tom.

Wow – Mitt just called the chinese a bunch of IP thieves and that we can’t trust them (not that he’s wrong). Nice to hear
a politician finally admit that.

UhOh – Rudy was just given a national security question. Break
out the bottles…

Timothy S. Carlson on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

We need to get China to loosen up on it currency devaluation, but you aren’t gonna do it in an aggro manner like Hunter wants, you’ll cause bigger problems than you will solve them.

What exactly do you think he is going to do that would cause you to say that?

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:33 PM

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

I’ll do my best. Pretty substantive discussions about trade, taxes, line item veto, etc. Rudy and Mitt bickering about who’s the bestest tax cutter evah. Fred looks good, but he’s not getting too much time. Tancredo’s shouting in his usual halting manner. The biggest “split” seems to be on the merits of protectionism.

Big S on October 9, 2007 at 4:33 PM

They seem to be embargoing Fred…

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:34 PM

A person’s (family’s) desired standard of living determines whether a family need 2 incomes or not. Not the Gov’t.

Matthews is an ass.

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:35 PM

Yeah, Tancredo just made a lot of people groan and sigh when he brought up illegal immigration. Him and Paul are focused on tangents and making this a full issue debate.

I want to hear more from Huckabee…oh, speak of the devil.

MadisonConservative on October 9, 2007 at 4:35 PM

Ron Paul..dubi should be able to buy Nasdaq………What a f$%king moonbat……

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

UhOh – Rudy was just given a national security question. Break
out the bottles…

Timothy S. Carlson on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

He answered without mentioning New York or 9/11.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

McCain the wise senator

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

UhOh – Rudy was just given a national security question. Break
out the bottles…

Timothy S. Carlson on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Unless you have a bladder the size of a watermelon, you’re going to miss have the debate if Rudy holds true to form.

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

I’d ask for an unbiased opinion on how it’s going, but I’m smart enough to know that such a thing does not exist.
Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:30 PM

Overall, everyone (but Paul) seems to be doing pretty well, but no one doing really great. IMHO

It would be a snooze-fest for anyone but political junkies like us.

LegendHasIt on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

half the debate

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

Limerick…what happened to the fiscal conservative who values personal responsibility!!

StoutRepublican on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

What exactly do you think he is going to do that would cause you to say that?

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:33 PM

No idea, but you don’t go in declaring that China WILL do anything, they don’t f*cking roll that way, it isn’t some pissy third world country that we can just bulldoze over.

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:37 PM

They seem to be embargoing Fred…

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:34 PM

The only way to keep him from killing the other candidate……

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:37 PM

Sorry, quote function “glitched” again. Strikeout not intended.

LegendHasIt on October 9, 2007 at 4:37 PM

He answered without mentioning New York or 9/11.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:36 PM

NO. FRIGGEN. WAY.

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:37 PM

Did Fred say there’s no national security issue with Dubai controlling the Nasdaq?

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

Hunter doesn’t trust Dubai…. everyone else seems to, even Paul

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

Go Hunter…Never trust dubi……..

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

OH! Hunter just pwned the whole stage!

MadisonConservative on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:37 PM

BELIEVE!

Big S on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

Now I remember why I like Hunter so much – he just NAILED Dubai and incidentally the less-well-informed “top tier” candidates.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

Don’t seem to like Mitt. I think McCain is doing better than I expected. I like Rudy as well…
we’ll see.

Aggie85 on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

fogw on October 9, 2007 at 4:32 PM

Damn Liberal!

Nonfactor on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

amerpundit

Everyone has but Hunter

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

I’m beginning to like Hunter more than the others.

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

Ameripudit, yes, he did…

I’m on the fence…we sure love to have our hands in every part of the global economy, and don’t want anyone touching ours. Doesn’t seem to be fair to be…I think if a country has economic ties with us, those are way more substantial than say nuclear nonproliferation agreements with North Korea.

StoutRepublican on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

No idea, but you don’t go in declaring that China WILL do anything, they don’t f*cking roll that way, it isn’t some pissy third world country that we can just bulldoze over.

I don’t even understand what the middle of your sentence means, but let me in short say:
Status quo has flaws. China desperately needs us to sell the products, we don’t need to pretend they don’t. Free trade is fine, but we can improve our situation I think.

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

So far, I think Fred is a no-show.

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

And apparently Brownback and Tancredo. And Rudy and Fred mentioned that before purchases are allowed, they need to be determined if they’re a national security risk.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

Does anybody believe Matthews on any economic issue?

“The taxpayers haven’t lost it – it’s in their pocket!”

I love, love, love it.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:41 PM

Great Line for Fred…We shouldn’t confuse the wealth of the government with the wealth of it people…roughly.

StoutRepublican on October 9, 2007 at 4:41 PM

Go Fred……….a decrease in taxes is not a loss of money, the tax payer knows where that money is, its in their pocket…….

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:41 PM

There’s Fred. Good to see him

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Chrissie, is uncharacteristically subdued.

Entelechy on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

“We’ll take a break right now,” (while Matthews ponders the entirely new concept that money the government doesn’t possess is still money that benefits somebody in the world.)

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Is there going to be a phone-in / text message poll afterwards? We could start a poll on what percentage Ron Paul gets from his cultish fast fingered vote machine brigade.

I’ll say 74%.

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

So it’s almost over, right? And yet there have been no questions on Iraq, national security, etc. Why? Am I just being paranoid?

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

Chrissie, is uncharacteristically subdued.

Entelechy on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Yeah, but it aint over yet.

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

Is it just me….or does anyone else sense fireworks in the making for the 2nd hour?

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

I think Fred! rocked on that one.

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

What I mean is the Chinese have a real chip on their shoulder, and they don’t handle being told what to do very well.

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:40 PM

I don’t necessarily disagree, but you have to be smart about it, Hunters rhetoric makes it sound like he wants to light a candle with a flamethrower. You just don’t work with China that way.

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

Wow. I’m stupid. It’s a CNBC debate. I thought it was MSNBC being broadcast on CNBC. Nevermind…

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

These guys get things done…democrats inspire you to do nothing.

tomas on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

So it’s almost over, right? And yet there have been no questions on Iraq, national security, etc. Why? Am I just being paranoid?

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

This debate is on economics.

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

So it’s almost over, right? And yet there have been no questions on Iraq, national security, etc. Why? Am I just being paranoid?

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

It’s because Iraq and the GWOT has nothing to do with the economy!

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

I think Fred! rocked on that one.

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

He certainly had the money quote with……the tax payer knows where that money is, its in their pocket…….

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 4:45 PM

Fred needs to streamline his answers a little. He has some good things to say, but spends a little too much time saying them. “First principles” is a fine thing, but when they are generally understood among your target audience, more specific answers are nice.

Big S on October 9, 2007 at 4:45 PM

Yeah, but it aint over yet.

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

Very true; there’s still 1:15 for him to get ripped.

steveegg on October 9, 2007 at 4:45 PM

Fred T on the AMT: “…we shouldn’t confuse the wealth of government with the wealth of the nation.”

Good line. I’m certain that he confused the heck out of Mathews with that statement.

Physics Geek on October 9, 2007 at 4:45 PM

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:43 PM

I was actually being sarcastic. I think they should cover Iraq…oops Chris just asked the first Iraq question.

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Here’s Iraq!

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM

The questions are much better than I expected. They must have crissy pissypants tranq’d up pretty heavily. ;)

Here comes the Bush comparisons…

need popcorn…

techno_barbarian on October 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Fred sounds like a he has a cold or hoarse.

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Chrissie, is uncharacteristically subdued.

Entelechy on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

After the heat he recently took questioning his ability to be reasonably impartial, I’m guessing someone had a “talk” with him. Something along the lines of “You F this up and it’ll be the last time a Republican appears on your network. Ever.”

Hollowpoint on October 9, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Entelechy on October 9, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Chrissie has BDS.

Beat Down Syndrome.

fogw on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:38 PM

The deal does not give Dubai control of the Nasdqa. The deal is for 20% stake. that is 31% less than what is needed for a controlling interest. so if Dubai wants to return our oil money to this country what’s the problem?

unseen on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

I just took this poll and the results scared and surprised me. The guy I actually support scored as the lowest Republican. One thing was accurate, though. Hillary was at the bottom.

rivlax on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Islamic Facism! CAIR calls in 5-4-3-2….

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Goodbye Mitt….

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

unseen on October 9, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Oh, I wasn’t taking a position. I just had missed what he said.

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

McCain: “I’m the only one, yada yada yada” Good grief

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Wow. That last Fred! line (re: 20 year veterans of congress) just went *thud*.

askheaves on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Somebody needs to take Paul shopping and get him the right size jacket.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Bad Candy on October 9, 2007 at 4:44 PM

Heh. Not comparable to Obama saying that we should invade Pakistan. Don’t give me that – we can’t talk about what is good for us in case we might upset the Chinese (who are very very dependent on our marketplace)

If there is a problem you have to address it; what did we do with all our so-called concerns about their human rights – we gave em mfn statues. At least Hunter recognizes the Chinese problem and is willing to talk about policies to address it, aside from everyone else who pretends doing something about it violates free trade.

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Weight of Glory

HA!!

StoutRepublican on October 9, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Oh, this is another part of the debate where we have to give the loon a chance to talk so we don’t have to hear him complain.

By the way, did he just call us an empire?

amerpundit on October 9, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Fiat money!

Big S on October 9, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Probably naught – Paul

omnipotent on October 9, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Somebody needs to take Paul shopping and get him the right size jacket.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

They don’t make them in “little-man”

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:50 PM

would Brownback get off the stage and go home.

unseen on October 9, 2007 at 4:51 PM

askheaves on October 9, 2007 at 4:48 PM

Bartiromo (the lady moderator) actually turned around earlier and told the audience to hold their applause. I’d listen if I were in the audience.

Big S on October 9, 2007 at 4:51 PM

Jo Biden!!!! there you go Switchback! good plan

Weight of Glory on October 9, 2007 at 4:51 PM

would Brownback get off the stage and go home.
+1

Spirit of 1776 on October 9, 2007 at 4:51 PM

Biden!!!!……Just shot off his foot.

Limerick on October 9, 2007 at 4:51 PM

Iraqis don’t want federalism

bnelson44 on October 9, 2007 at 4:52 PM

Brownback – “the 9/11 crisis?” Kind of an odd way of phrasing it… and we did find some WMD, the NYT published a grip piece about how Bush released info about Iraq’s nuclear program that was detailed enough to help other rogue nations get it, and there’s that pesky detail of those trucks moving something into Syria…
I really hate that our “leaders” have ceded this issue.

Laura on October 9, 2007 at 4:52 PM

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