169599f6f09d12ebed4e…

Even during WWII, with the “Greatest Generation” there was a LOT of war weariness in 44 and 45.

Romeo13 on October 9, 2007 at 7:08 PM

True. And remember that American casualties were really minimal in comparison with Soviet losses.
But what if America had to cope with similarly devastating destruction and losses, both civilian and military ?
Try to imagine a total war on american soil. A war of annihilation…

Americans are lucky !

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 6:22 PM

Point being that if not done immediately, our own internal dissension will make it almost impossible to actualy nuke anyone.

There will always be a certain amount of people who will want even more proof… or not believe the proof you have.

Even during WWII, with the “Greatest Generation” there was a LOT of war weariness in 44 and 45.

Most of the past MADD strategy was based on the idea that we would KNOW where the nukes came from.

Its pretty easy to track an ICBM, or Bomber, back to its point of origin.

This idea that you will be able to figure out IMMEDIATLY the point of origin from the blast debris is really hard to swallow.

With proper forensics, you MAY be able, eventualy, to get to the blast site, get enough transuranic material to figure out where it came from… but its going to take quite a bit of time…

And thats IF they don’t do one of my Nightmare scenarios of putting it on a merchant ship and detoniating it off the coast of the US, creating a tidal wave.

Romeo13 on October 9, 2007 at 4:39 PM

Hold your horses their cowboy, nobody said it would be done instantly.

A nuclear terriost attack means we wipe out North Korea and invade Iran. After all we could use Iranian oil, but North Korea has nothing we would care about if it was contaminated for the next hundred years or so. That brings us down to just Syria, and I would say give the Isralis the go ahead to take them out. You know they are itching to do it. All three gone in a very short period of time.

Buford on October 9, 2007 at 2:09 PM

Much as I’d like to see all 3 of those countries reduced to radioactive dust, does anyone really think it’s possible to nuke North Korea without killing people in South Korea, if not in the initial blast, then due to radioactive fallout in the days and weeks that followed? And more importantly, what about the thousands of U.S. troops stationed in S. Korea?

Ochlan on October 9, 2007 at 4:57 PM

Really?? Then I guess the guys I worked with at Commander Submarine Pacific… and all those US Navy training manuals I read, were wrong…

So glad you set me straight…

/shakes his head and wanders off…

…detoniating it off the coast of the US, creating a tidal wave

Hollywood science dude…don’t lose sleep ;-)

Its pretty easy to track an ICBM, or Bomber, back to its point of origin.

This idea that you will be able to figure out IMMEDIATLY the point of origin from the blast debris is really hard to swallow.

With proper forensics, you MAY be able, eventualy, to get to the blast site, get enough transuranic material to figure out where it came from… but its going to take quite a bit of time…

And thats IF they don’t do one of my Nightmare scenarios of putting it on a merchant ship and detoniating it off the coast of the US, creating a tidal wave.

JayHaw Phrenzie on October 9, 2007 at 1:56 PM

The key is to make them understand that before they contemplate the attack. Make them 100% sure that we will retaliate in the manner you outline, and that we will hunt down everyone responsible just in case one or two escapes.

Unfortunately, we have not shown that resolve.

Until then, this speculation wearies me.

Cool…cheap Free real estate

Ochlan on October 9, 2007 at 3:11 PM

Heh heh…

You will see mass exoduses of people in the North to Canada, and people in the south to Mexico

Cool…cheap real estate

The motivations of those who want to murder us are not complicated: To watch an American city go up into a fireball is its own reward.

This is the lesson that 9/11 should teach us in dealing with the fantasists of the Islamic world. A fantasy does not need to make any sense – that is the whole point of having one.

In dealing with the Japanese or with the Soviet Union, we were never forced to wonder whether they might delegate their actions to such utterly informal and irresponsible entities as Al Qaeda. The threat they posed they posed in their own right, and hence they were accountable for their actions, and knew that we would hold them accountable. But this is no longer the case. For example, even today, over a year later, there is still debate about the possible connection between Iraq and the events of 9/11 – a debate that may well never be resolved. And this means that if a nuclear device were to be detonated in downtown Chicago tomorrow, from an unknown source, could we really count on being able to find its “return address” if in fact it was the work of a “rogue” state? We know that, in fact, the answer is no; and we know that “they” know this as well; and they know we know – all of which only begins to suggest the surrealism that is characteristic of the crisis with which we are faced. For it means that if they chose to delegate such a horrendous act to an entity like Al Qaeda, they would force us into an impossible choice: Either we accept such an attack without retaliating, or else we are forced to lash out blindly – and in the same spirit of blood feud and vendetta with which the attack was made. And either choice transcends our present categories of comprehension.

The first “rogue” nuclear strike – a strike from an unknown and even unknowable source – is a genie that once out of the bottle can never be put back in. It would cause an overnight catastrophic transformation of the world. In many ways we must be grateful that Al Qaeda’s fingerprints were over all 9-11. For what if we had had no clue – even today – who had perpetrated such an act?

The Bush Admin was on it even earlier. It’s why NK, Iran and Iraq made the “Axis of Evil.” It’s the argument for not waiting for the “imminent threat.” That Iraq is taking as long as it is — and that the Left has succeeded in making a partisan issue of it — has caused folks to forget this, if they ever realized it in the first place.

It is true only if we have the book on the facility that enriched the uranium/produced the plutonium (or God forbid, produced the tritium). I rather doubt that, unless the nuke was made in Pakistan, it will come from facilities that we have the book on.

Getting back to Sunday’s discussion briefly (sorry about leaving you hanging), that “fingerprint” is why the Iranian/Syrian effort is being built there and with just enough secrecy for the Soviet…er, Russians and Red Chinese to claim plausable deniability.

steveegg on October 9, 2007 at 2:44 PM

Dont even actually need the book. Process of elimination. The unique transuranic signature, for instances comes from the ore refined, not the refining process itself. Australian yellowcake has a different transuranic signature than Niger’s or than that mined in Colorado. Since there are a very limited number of places where uranium is mined exactly where each mines output goes is pretty specific.

Yes the specific refining process leaves a traceable signature on the fissile material produced was well, however that signature is pretty well defined for each process. Once you know the transuranic properties reverse engineering the refining process is pretty simple.

A combined knowledge of the refining process and the origins of the ore gives you a fairly specific region where the device came from. As an example, the refining process used by Iran is done with the Zippe centrifuge as is Pakistan’s.

Match the isotopic signature produced by the Zippe centrifuge with the transuranic signature of the ore and it becomes obvious that device is of Middle Eastern origins.

Acts of desperate violence and vigilantly justice would claim tens of thousands of lives. If you think this isn’t what would happen you haven’t been paying attention to what happened in the aftermath of other much smaller disasters in the past. Just look at what happened after hurricane Katrina.

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 2:22 PM

…and the rest of the world would more then likely follow to a certain degree wouldn’t it? With out the US there wouldn’t be anything to stop Putin from driving through the Folda Gap with every tank that runs. Nothing to stop China from walking through Taiwan either.

I fail to see how losing a maximum of 3 American cities, regrettable as it would be, constitutes ‘national suicide.’

At that point it’s not trading cities, nor is it MAD. There would be nothing mutual about it…we’d be hurt, but still here, they’d be gone.

doriangrey: the death toll in the cities hit would be relatively small compared to the death toll caused by the near total collapse of national infrastructure.

I am amazed that people seem to think that the result of a nuclear attack with no rational response from our government would only result in the loss of cities or collapse of national infrastructure.

If the United States Government cannot defend itself or retaliate against a nuclear attack, the entire government and the Constitution will collapse. You will see mass exoduses of people in the North to Canada, and people in the south to Mexico, as they flee the target centers. You’ll see other states unilateraterly surrender to the terrorists, in complete defiance of the Federal Government. You’ll see imposition of shaira law in other localities. You’ll see riots as people demand that someplace, anyplace, be attacked in retaliation.

The President from a command bunker with all 435 representatives, 100 senators, and all 9 supreme court justices, will be completely useless. Even if the Army is called in to prevent, for example, Wisconsin from surrendering to the terrorists and imposing shaira law, it is likely there would be regional fighting between state and federal troops.

If the government DOES respond to a nuclear attack within a short timeframe, this scenario could be avoided. But if it doesn’t? Forget it.

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 2:22 PM

All of those would probably happen, yes…but they are temporary situations and we would still have at the least 270 million of our current 300 million population left to pick up the pieces.

And if we don’t put Louisiana in charge of the rebuilding, we’ll eventually have new great cities in new places to replace those lost.

On a bare hill raise a signal flag, shout to them, wave your hand, so they might enter the gates of the princes!

I have given orders to my chosen soldiers;

I have summoned the warriors through whom I will vent my anger, my boasting, arrogant ones.

There is a loud noise on the mountains – it sounds like a large army!

There is great commotion among the kingdoms – nations are being assembled!

The Lord who commands armies is mustering forces for battle.

They come from a distant land, from the horizon.

It is the Lord with his instruments of judgment, coming to destroy the whole earth.

Wail, for the Lord’s day of judgment is near; it comes with all the destructive power of the sovereign judge.

For this reason all hands hang limp, every human heart loses its courage.

They panic – cramps and pain seize hold of them like those of a woman who is straining to give birth.

They look at one another in astonishment; their faces are flushed red.

Look, the Lord’s day of judgment is coming; it is a day of cruelty and savage, raging anger, destroying the earth and annihilating its sinners.

Indeed the stars in the sky and their constellations no longer give out their light; the sun is darkened as soon as it rises, and the moon does not shine.

I will punish the world for its evil, and wicked people for their sin.

I will put an end to the pride of the insolent,

I will bring down the arrogance of tyrants.

I will make human beings more scarce than pure gold, and people more scarce than gold from Ophir.

So I will shake the heavens, and the earth will shake loose from its foundation, because of the fury of the Lord who commands armies, in the day he vents his raging anger.

Like a frightened gazelle or a sheep with no shepherd, each will turn toward home, each will run to his homeland.

Everyone who is caught will be stabbed; everyone who is seized will die by the sword.

Their children will be smashed to pieces before their very eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives raped.

Look, I am stirring up the Medes to attack them; they are not concerned about silver, nor are they interested in gold.

Their arrows will cut young men to ribbons; they have no compassion on a person’s offspring, they will not look with pity on children.

Babylon, the most admired of kingdoms, the Chaldeans’ source of honor and pride, will be destroyed by God just as Sodom and Gomorrah were.

No one will live there again; no one will ever reside there again.

No bedouin will camp there, no shepherds will rest their flocks there.

Wild animals will rest there, the ruined houses will be full of hyenas.

Ostriches will live there, wild goats will skip among the ruins.

Wild dogs will yip in her ruined fortresses, jackals will yelp in the once-splendid palaces.

Her time is almost up, her days will not be prolonged.

Not really Bryan, it’s actually pretty damn easy to track the origins of a nuclear device whether that device has detonated or not. There are about 8 I think specifics which define the devices origins.

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 1:51 PM

It is true only if we have the book on the facility that enriched the uranium/produced the plutonium (or God forbid, produced the tritium). I rather doubt that, unless the nuke was made in Pakistan, it will come from facilities that we have the book on.

Getting back to Sunday’s discussion briefly (sorry about leaving you hanging), that “fingerprint” is why the Iranian/Syrian effort is being built there and with just enough secrecy for the Soviet…er, Russians and Red Chinese to claim plausable deniability.

doriangrey on October 9, 2007 at 2:22 PM

It’ll be 911 times 1000

[/team america]

I fail to see how losing a maximum of 3 American cities, regrettable as it would be, constitutes ‘national suicide.’

At that point it’s not trading cities, nor is it MAD. There would be nothing mutual about it…we’d be hurt, but still here, they’d be gone.

James on October 9, 2007 at 2:06 PM

Remember the hit the economy took after 9/11? think about that for a couple of minutes. Then magnify that ten thousand times. Ten thousand time for New York City, another ten thousand times for L.A… the death toll in the cities hit would be relatively small compared to the death toll caused by the near total collapse of national infrastructure.

First thing to collapse would be the transportation system, panicked individuals would bring the highway system to a halt as they attempted to flee the cities they live in. After that the food and transportation fuel system would collapse, tens of millions of people would find themselves stranded in the middle of nowhere without gas or diesel unable to secure food or water.

Acts of desperate violence and vigilantly justice would claim tens of thousands of lives. If you think this isn’t what would happen you haven’t been paying attention to what happened in the aftermath of other much smaller disasters in the past. Just look at what happened after hurricane Katrina.

but North Korea has nothing we would care about if it was contaminated for the next hundred years or so

What about the millions of brutalized innocents subject to the gargoyles insanity?