Survey: Christianity’s reputation declining among 16-to-29-year-olds
posted at 7:13 pm on October 2, 2007 by Allahpundit
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly
Due in part, surely, to population growth among America’s non-Christian citizens, but only in part.
The study shows that 16- to 29-year-olds exhibit a greater degree of criticism toward Christianity than did previous generations when they were at the same stage of life. In fact, in just a decade, many of the Barna measures of the Christian image have shifted substantially downward, fueled in part by a growing sense of disengagement and disillusionment among young people…
Among young non-Christians, nine out of the top 12 perceptions were negative. Common negative perceptions include that present-day Christianity is judgmental (87%), hypocritical (85%), old-fashioned (78%), and too involved in politics (75%) – representing large proportions of young outsiders who attach these negative labels to Christians. The most common favorable perceptions were that Christianity teaches the same basic ideas as other religions (82%), has good values and principles (76%), is friendly (71%), and is a faith they respect (55%).
Even among young Christians, many of the negative images generated significant traction. Half of young churchgoers said they perceive Christianity to be judgmental, hypocritical, and too political. One-third said it was old-fashioned and out of touch with reality.
I would have guessed the main cause was the pedophile-priest scandal but Barna suggests that it has more to do with increasing mainstream acceptance of gays. The more comfortable people are with them, the more uncomfortable they are with Christianity’s hostility to homosexuality. Whether that’s because they’re simply not buying the idea that Christians hate the sin but love the sinner or whether it’s because they don’t think of homosexuality is a sin isn’t clear, but probably a bit of both.
Here’s the trend in a nice, neat, straight line:
And here, from Gallup today, is the favorable ratings for the top-tier candidates among “non-religious” Americans. If Barna’s right about which way the wind is blowing, the Democrats’ newfound interest in faith will be a very passing fancy.
You must be logged in to post a comment.
Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2
Now I’m really confused. His k-fed comment was humorous. Which part was sarcastic?
JiangxiDad on October 2, 2007 at 10:39 PM
I don’t think that’s correct. It’s “this guy’s” job to generate traffic and to keep us entertained and nobody does it better anywhere on the net. I doubt there is any ill will in any of it, it’s just his job to sometimes make himself an easy target in order to fuel the debate.
Maxx on October 2, 2007 at 10:26 PM
I guess I just don’t find lies about Christianity as entertaining as some. I do agree about him being infantile, i.e. “generating traffic” for it’s own sake. Of course, that’s as easy as it gets and requires zero talent (I give you Colmes as but one example…). In the end, if Malkin couldn’t care less about sh*t like this, then why should I?
JWS on October 2, 2007 at 10:51 PM
There’s plenty of room in Taoism and Buddhism and Hinduism and Jainism.
Anything but Islam.
profitsbeard on October 2, 2007 at 11:11 PM
OK, so now Christians are supposed to be anti-Paris? Why? She’s hot and rich. . . what about that would be against Christianity? Just because my beliefs can’t be put in a convenient little box doesn’t make them less valid.
I love Jesus Christ, but I also love sexy hot girls. Hey I sin too – otherwise I wouldn’t need Jesus.
The K-fed thing was supposed to be funny. . . but really, my job as a man is to create a good life for my offspring. Paris Hilton’s baby will never have to want for anything financially. And I bet she’ll be a pretty good mom.
ThackerAgency on October 2, 2007 at 11:15 PM
jihadwatcher on October 2, 2007 at 9:06 PM
Very good.
cjs1943 on October 2, 2007 at 11:24 PM
The straight line graph would seem to undercut any notion of 9-11 being a big jolt to Christianity, but rather a steady and predictable result of a culture where the media and government education are controlled by the least religious people in our society, and kids have been receiving a steadily increasing drumbeat of negativity toward Christianity for almost 50 years.
What a surprise — advertising works!
The acceptance of the self-destructive and immoral homosexual lifestyle continues to gain traction, and younger people find more reason to find fault with religion. I’m shocked.
Jaibones on October 2, 2007 at 11:29 PM
On a hilarious note: these same kids also love Obama, who is not only an avowed Christian, but apparently belongs to a racist sect of black Christians. A twofer!
Jaibones on October 2, 2007 at 11:30 PM
I don’t think we disagree about anything. But I suspect there might be a huge age gap here that is making communication difficult.
JiangxiDad on October 2, 2007 at 11:39 PM
“For ALL have sinned and FALL SHORT of the glory of God” Romans 3:23. Everyone sins! Jesus Christ died on the cross for every man’s and woman’s sin, so that no person who received his free gift of grace would have to suffer an eternity apart from God. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” Romans 6:23. This free gift is available to all men and women for all time! “For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” John 3:16 Now this Jesus, the Jesus of the Bible, was not One of judgment, He was One of love. He was friends with the people in his day that were considered the lowest of the low (tax collectors and prostitutes). “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved” John 3:17.
A Christian is no different from anyone else except that they have been forgiven of their sins by the grace of God and have put their faith in Jesus Christ. As Christians, we strive to be like our Lord and Savior, Jesus. However, although we have been forgiven of all of our sins, we still fight our sin nature on a daily basis. This leads to what can be seen as hypocrisy, because Christians often sin or do things contrary to what Jesus would have done. The difference is that Jesus was perfect, Christians are sinful people that have been forgiven, and are now striving for perfection, something that no mere human can hope to attain in this lifetime. The “problem” is that the Christian church is made up of human beings. Christianity at its core is Jesus Christ and the fact that He loved the world so much he left heaven to come die on a cross and rise again to conquer death so that mankind could be with Him in heaven. You can decide not to accept Him in this life, and accept the consequences of your sin yourself, or you can accept His free gift and spend eternity with Him in heaven. Ultimately, the choice is yours for where you spend eternity.
But, while you are trying to make this eternity altering decision, remember, that when you choose to accept Christ, you are not saying “I want to be like the priests that molested those children” or “I sure hope I can become the new church gossip”. You are ultimately saying, “Wow, I am a sinner, and nothing I can ever do is good enough to make up for the sinning I have done against God. Jesus, thank you for dying on the cross for my sin, and for rising again to conquer death, so that I can be with You in heaven. Please come into my life, and forgive me of my sin.” At this point, you then strive daily to become like your Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Trtle2001 on October 3, 2007 at 12:00 AM
It’s been a long, long, long time since I was either 18 or 29. From the depths of my memory though, I seem to recall dismissing organized religion at the time and espousing lost causes simply because I thought popular opinion was for old folks and I was the voice of a new age. LOL I don’t think I’m going to worry too much about that age group.
jeanie on October 3, 2007 at 12:00 AM
AP,
Christianity is not “hostile” to homosexuality. It is disapproving of it, just as it is of any extramarital intimacy. The condemnations enumerated in Scripture are equivalent for every form of illicit lust. The honest fact is that the pro-gay crowd is far more hostile to Christianity than the other way around.
It is no surprise that as the world’s populations increasingly focus on material and carnal appetites, Christianity will be viewed with greater hostility and derision. That’s a perfectly natural reaction.
- Romans 8:3-8
The conscience becomes seared, unable to hear that “still, small voice” which offers freedom from the trap of insatiable appetites, and the self-justifying, rationalizing human nature turns its guilt inside out, aiming anger at the proof of that guilt.
Such behavior will get worse and worse, while the looters and “progressives” proclaim that things are improving as they take God out of more and more of peoples’ daily lives. Until He returns.
Freelancer on October 3, 2007 at 2:47 AM
Dear AP/other athiests, just a friendly reminder:
As Christianity has declined in America, liberalism, moral relativism, broken families, political corruption, and illicit drug use have all increased.
So the next time you want to harp on the evils of Christianity and the foolishness of faith in God, just remember what it’s being replaced with by our new liberal overlords.
If this is your atheist dream world where the Christians are finally shut up and ridiculed, I dare say I should pray for you, and America, more often.
So which would you rather have as the majority faith: The religion of liberalism or Christianity? You think the Church is heavy-handed on heretics? The Church of liberalism silences their heretics by state mandate. Oppose the (National-)Socialist Reich and be taken away by the government that is supposed to serve you.
BKennedy on October 3, 2007 at 2:50 AM
An ex-girlfriend, very liberal, told me that Christianity is a hateful religion. No qualifiers, no “some Christians” are hateful. Just a blanket condemnation of an entire religion and family of denominations and a complex root system of Western civilization.
I was almost speechless. That was in 2000, before 9/11. I would be totally speechless today.
I’m sure she thought John Lennon’s “Imagine,” that epitome of fatuousness, was one hell of a song…. adolescence springs eternal.
I’m sure if John is in heaven now God put him in charge of organizing sock hops and left that ‘war between good and evil’ thing up to the serious people and angels.
And to the hip folk, that would probably be a cool, hep, hip “inner child” thing.
silverfox on October 3, 2007 at 5:41 AM
I don’t know if this has been said yet but the reasons for this decline are two-fold and never mentioned by any erroneous polsters such as Barna.
One: The majority of modern-day American christianity does not hold to the essential doctrine of the faith. The five solas for example; We are saved by (1) God’s grace alone through (2) faith alone in the finished work of (3) Christ alone revealed within (4) scripture alone to give (5) glory to God alone.
Two: “If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.” – John 15:17-19
I suggest anyone to read the Gospel of John in its entirety.
shick on October 3, 2007 at 9:06 AM
There are so many repeats of the same trope in this thread. It takes this form:
“If you reject Christianity, then you are bound to become either a Communist or a Muslim.”
And yet, both the conservative movement and the Republican party have been filled with marginally-religious individuals for decades. Why cannot this not be a viable alternative?
Case in point: Bob Barr has kept a copy of Ayn Rand’s _Atlas Shrugged_ with him for years, and that book is anything but friendly to Christianity. And yet, there are Christians who are ten thousand times more friendly to both authoritarianism and communism than Ayn Rand will ever be.
Perhaps the Christians here are talking about themselves when they fear a drift toward Communism / Islam if Christianity were to lose its hold on American culture (and it is, in fact, losing its hold, tee hee).
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 9:13 AM
Typical Christian splitting hairs. We watch not what you say, but rather what you do.
I will easily agree that the Bible, both the OT and the NT, are hostile toward homosexual behavior.
Likewise, the Bible, both the OT and the NT, are approving of your god killing children and infants, ethnic-cleasing style.
Gay anal sex is one million times less disgusting than murdering a baby, and yet you WORSHIP the god who both mandated and personally performed the murder of thousands upon thousands of children and infants.
Who’s the “pervert” now, Christian?
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 9:18 AM
*sigh*
I have failed.
Asher on October 3, 2007 at 9:19 AM
Maybe if you were to have the culture at large including the courts and the police department united in belief that you should not only suffer ETERNAL TORTURE but have a crappy-as-possible life until your well-deserved death from AIDS, then you just might begin to understand the depth of my bitterness. I don’t have to forgive, but I am willing to be polite if the Christians cease with all of the “pervert” and “abomination” excrement, only because I think Leftism and Islam are worse than Christianity.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 9:32 AM
*sigh*
I have failed.
Asher
That’s because you chose the COWBOYS. Dude… The COWBOYS? Ugh. Jerry Jones is a Jerk.
Krydor on October 3, 2007 at 9:46 AM
Romans 1:24 – 25
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves…
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator…em>
The only other thing that needs to be said about it is, “wide is the path that leads to destruction“…
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 10:02 AM
I understand you. This is your statement of belief:
1. Homosexual sex is always wrong.
2. Chopping up a boatload of children and infants and smearing their blood over your sword in rapacious fury is sometimes morally correct.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:09 AM
As for Christianity having a “declining reputation”, people need to look into the reason that they are are on this earth living life in the first place. It is either some giant cosmic accident that will eventually end, or, it is the driveway so to speak for the highway of eternity as the Bible claims. If the Bible is what it claims to be, then this physical life we live here does one specific thing by the time it is over for each of us, it seperates those who have a heart for God and His Word from those who have a heart for something, no, ANYTHING, else. The Bible calls it seperating the wheat from the chaff, we pretty much call it politically incorrect these days.
How “perfect” do you have to be to not wind up spending eternity in a place you’d rather not be? The Bible says that God’s “standard” is perfection. Anything less than that, and you’re off to a place of eternal sorrow. And yet, since God knows we can never be “perfect” in and of ourselves, He sent Jesus Christ to suffer and die in our place. Jesus willingly died in our place to pay a sin debt that he didn’t owe, for we owe a sin debt we can never pay.
If that knowledge isn’t enough to make you fall on your knees before God, NOTHING will save you from the eternal destiny that awaits you.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 10:17 AM
Explain why “chopping up a boatload of children” is wrong.
No exasperation, sighs, “it’s obviously wrong to any thinking human being”, “it’s wrong to me, that’s why” will be accepted. You will need a logical reason.
And yes, I think chopping up a boatload of children is wrong in almost every circumstance. But sometimes mankind creates very bad circumstances that can only be fixed with even more extreme measures.
angryoldfatman on October 3, 2007 at 10:22 AM
It’s a melodically and lyrically simple song that is entitled “Imagine”, not “Manifesto”. Similarly, Christ’s beatitudes are innocent and lovely statements some would call idealized, but perhaps you’d call fatuous. I couldn’t rely on either work as the only guide for my life, but some evenings, after catching up on the world news I can find myself thinking “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God”. I think that is something John Lennon would have agreed with, even if it might be adolescent to think so.
dedalus on October 3, 2007 at 10:23 AM
“Almost”? I had been thinking that kind of thing would be wrong in “all” circumstances.
dedalus on October 3, 2007 at 10:28 AM
You don’t think there’s a circumstance when killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children is the only right course of action to save a nation, possibly the entire world?
angryoldfatman on October 3, 2007 at 10:31 AM
Because it deprives them of life, and all individuals have the right to life, liberty, and property.
Unlike gay sex which is *always* wrong, correct? You can come up with an uncompromising moral stand against consensual gay sex (which deprives no one of life, liberty, or property).
But you have to waffle on the issue of baby murder. Murdering babies is sometimes A-OK to you, and that’s the burden of being a Christian: You have to make excuses for your baby-killing god’s horrible behavior and deal with the moral consequences of choosing a god that lusts for the blood of children and infants as your moral compass.
But can I twist the knife even more? Yes, I can. Here’s the “Holy” Bible again:
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16
That is your god mandating abortion, except this is the kind of abortion where the mother necessarily dies.
“A foundation made of sand” ought to sting you right about now, provided that you’ve read your Bible.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:35 AM
You don’t “understand me” at all. 1) Rejecting the gift of Grace in and through Jesus Christ, that God freely offers to all who would receive Him, is what is “always wrong”. Apart from Christ, I am nothing but a filthy sinner, justly deserving of God’s wrath and displeasure. The God of the Bible doesn’t say, “stop sinning and become perfect and THEN come to me”, He says “Come to Me all you who are heavy laden…”. We are all heavy laden by the yoke of sin that seperates all of us from God. We cannot BE or become perfect or sinless enough ourselves, that’s why we need Christ’s perfection in place of the filthy rags we can only offer. Apart from Christ, when God looks at any of us, He sees nothing but a filthy sinner, period. But when that filthy sinner gets redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, then when God looks upon us, He sees the perfection of Christ instead. All God asks of us is that we look to and rely upon Him for our lives, and repent of those things which are displeasing in His eyes. But the fact is, the vast majority of mankind doesn’t want to fall on their knees before a Holy God, they would rather go their own way and do their own thing and foolishly believe in their own little minds that they are “gods” unto themselves. And they can be!
…right up until this present physical life gives way to the eternity that awaits us all, according to the Bible anyway.
Otherwise, 2), if you have a problem with anything God does or has done, then you need to take it up with Him. From my perspective, as the “creator”, He certainly has the right to run His creation any way He sees fit. You would certainly not deny the right of the potter to handle the existance of the pots he creates any way he pleases, would you?
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 10:40 AM
The key difference is that your god is allegedly omnipotent. Your god didn’t *have* to make the very difficult choice to nuke Hiroshima or Nagasaki any more than he *had* to kill all of the children and infants of the Amelekites. He could have chosen to teleport all of the children and infants into the future where they could have been adopted by loving American parents. Or he could have simply made the Amelekites into good people (and don’t give me that “free will” crap — the Bible is an open-and-shut case for predestination and your god even manipulated Pharoah to his own ends showing that he doesn’t care about “free will”).
No, your god killed children and infants because he wanted to. He thirsts for their blood. What do you expect from a god who is “pleased” by the stench of devil-worshipper-style animal sacrifices and mandates that his followers engage in pseudo-cannibalism?
(I promise to be nice if you stop abusing gays. Until then, IT’S ON!)
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:40 AM
angryoldfatman has a good point. As an atheist, you have no good reason to argue that it is wrong. If there is no God, and we are self-aware sentient beings here on this earth by pure luck, your objection to the ’smearing of blood’ is just as irrelevent as the spreading of jelly on toast.
“SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST!” contra “ADULT WHALES SHOULDN’T KILL BABY WHALES!”
“MORALITY IS DECIDED BY SOCIETY!” contra “DOWN WITH THE MORAL MAJORITY!”
“I DECIDE WHAT’S RIGHT AND WRONG!” contra “HOW DARE YOU SAY I’M WRONG!”
In fact, you have to borrow morality from Christianity to make your point.
shick on October 3, 2007 at 10:45 AM
Time will tell. I think you’re going to SPIN instead of admit that what I said was true (and it is).
In other words, it’s sometimes morally acceptable for two men to engage in consensual sex with each other, and that they can do this and simultaneously “receive Christ”?
Your guilt-games that are part and parcel of your nasty, misanthropic religion will not work on me. Take your guilt and stuff it! Guilt sucks, and that’s why your religion sucks!
Capitalizing the pronoun “him” is as “puffed up” as it is incorrect. Do you have to brag about your faith? (Yes.)
And I will happy to take it up with your god if he were to live somewhere other than the realm of your fantasy and imagination. I know exactly how one-sided your prayers are.
Instead, I will take up with YOU your CHOICE to WORSHIP a baby-killing god. That is orders of magnitude more perverted than fellatio could ever be!
But you can’t call him “loving” and “merciful”. If you want to claim that you worship an evil and bloodthirsty god, then you will de-fang my criticism. Otherwise, you’re having your cake and eating it, too.
Does the potter smash his own pots for fun? And how can you perfect the analogy by coming up with an “infant” pot or a “pregnant” pot which the potter will mercilessly destroy or rip open for the sake of abortion?
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:49 AM
First, that’s patently false. Every individual has the right to life, liberty, and property. If you want me to explain the roots of this philosophy including bridging the is-ought gap, then I can, but first tell me why I should waste my time since, from your perspective, it’s wrong by definition.
Second, you, too, have to waffle on the issue of baby-killing. It isn’t always wrong in your screwed-up morality.
Again, false, because children have the right to life.
In your morality, the smearing of the blood of Amelekite children was HOLY.
Like what? You can’t even tell me the name of my morality. Instead, you beat up a strawman to divert the discussion away from the horrible, disgusting behavior of the evil, bloodthirsty god which you CHOSE as your moral compass.
(I swear. Just stop with the “abomination” and “pervert” stuff and I’ll cease my attacks.)
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:56 AM
Loundry,
Question: You presume that God owes us anything at all. What we do deserve IS His wraith. Why should God be obliged to not wipe us all out?
The fool [a] says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. -Psalm 14:1-3
Answer: Grace and Mercy.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. – Romans 5:6-7
shick on October 3, 2007 at 10:56 AM
If those bombs in 1945 had been specially designed “women & children” bombs, I would say that was wrong–more an act of genocide than of war. Given what I currently know of what went into the decision I don’t think the Japan bombings were morally wrong.
I’ve read some Christian thinkers who struggle with the concept of “just war” when studying the atomic bombing of Japan and the Dresden fire bombing. Regardless of your opinion on those WWII bombings, you’d have to agree that there is a line somewhere between a “just war” and “terrorism”. A line between attacking soldiers in uniform and flying a planes into office buildings.
dedalus on October 3, 2007 at 10:59 AM
“The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.” Hosea 13:16
That is your god mandating abortion, except this is the kind of abortion where the mother necessarily dies.
“A foundation made of sand” ought to sting you right about now, provided that you’ve read your Bible.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 10:35 AM
Your reference to Hosea is somewhat misleading. In the first place, the story references God dealing with the idoltry of His people. The people broke their covenant with God and left Him no choice but to punish them accordingly under the Law. The same fate will eventually befall us all, the difference being that we now live in the age of Grace, again, where God freely offers all who would receive Him the blood of Christ on their behalf.
If you really care to know the truth, you might start by reading some commentaries on the subject to enlighten yourself to the circumstances surounding what took place…
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Hsa&chapter=13&verse=16&Comm=Comm%2Fjfb%2FHsa%2FHsa013.html%2331889%26JF+%5E%26B&Select.x=23&Select.y=9
but I suspect that what you are actually doing is looking for things in the Bible that you perceive that God has done that you believe others will find disturbing in order to help rationalize your rejection of God’s call on your life in your own mind. It’s all just part of the running away from God that those who don’t want to bend to His will do in order to retain some peace of mind in the process. The lie of the devil has always been, “do what thou wilt”…and unfortunately, sometimes folks run away from God too long and He eventually stops chasing them, and then it’s too late. God doesn’t want to enslave you, He only wants to save you from yourself.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 11:01 AM
No, I presume that you will continue to allow me to force you to admit that murdering babies is sometimes holy rather than stop abusing gay people. I couldn’t care less about your imaginary god.
Good question! Why didn’t he just kill everybody? He is, after all, a “just” god, and we all deserve death.
Then why didn’t he give grace and mercy to everybody? He is, after all, a “merciful” god who loves us.
Are you beginning to see the glaring problems in your dogma? Is maybe an inkling of light beginning to shine through that faith-induced haze? Just a tiny bit, perhaps?
Not in time for the Amelekites! So much for, “Jesus loves the little children”. Your god was late. Then again, he is omnipotent so he had control over that, just like he has control over everything. He *wants* to kill babies sometimes, and you are forced to admit that the lust for baby blood is, in that case, HOLY.
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. Which would you rather watch:
1. A “gay pride” parade in San Francisco
2. A follower of your god fulfilling your god’s holy will by hacking up a baby with a sword
I would rather watch #1, and I despise the “gay pride” parades.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 11:18 AM
Loundry,
It’s not patently false. I am interested in hearing you explain though I’m sure I’ve heard the sophistry before. It’s not wrong by my definition but according to your own philosophy if you were consistent.
I concur with this conclusion but you cannot consistently argue from your unbelief considering children are just bags of meat
I would like to continue and respond to your ‘attacks’ but I this is a limited forum and I didn’t plan on going to debate here.
avidbrood@hotmail.com
I can respond later tonight.
shick on October 3, 2007 at 11:26 AM
I thought my reference to Hosea was awesome, and you’re on really shaky ground trying to defend it.
In other words, violent forced abortion is sometimes just.
We will all eventually be violently aborted by your god’s psychotic followers?
Will you please stop with the pompous and incorrect capitalization of the pronoun “him”? Where does scripture say that you’re supposed to brag about your fealty?
My question to you is, why didn’t the children who were violently aborted by your god get the same deal that we who are lucky enough to live in the “age of grace” got? Isn’t your god a merciful god?
I’d really much rather you say something like, “You know, we Christians have really been unfair and rotten to gay people, and I think we should start treating them with kindness instead of the harsh abuse which we treat as part of our religion.”
But I don’t think you’re ready to give that up just yet.
So … IT’S ON!
I agree, it is disturbing. You prostrate yourself to a baby-killer in adoration. And it isn’t just my perception that your god mandated and performed the deaths of thousands of children and infants, including violent forced abortion, when he clearly didn’t have to. He did that. And it was holy. To you.
Gross.
Yes, it’s all my fault that you worship a baby-killing god.
Did he want to save the Amelekite babies from themselves? No, he had them brutally murdered. And you look at that and say, “Wow, what an awesome god!”
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 11:30 AM
Loundry,
I just read your last post.
I see no glaring problems.
shick on October 3, 2007 at 11:34 AM
Sin against God is NEVER “morally acceptable”. And you are failing to account for the difference between redeemed and unredeemed mankind. Unredeemed mankind is not a “sinner” because he sins, he is a sinner because he is born with the nature TO sin against God. As a result of what took place in the Gerden, we are all born with a spirit nature that stands against God. So, in the case of the unredeemed, it matters little what they do or do not do, because as the Bible says, “ye are of your father, the devil” anyway, and their ultimate destination is an eternity where they will wish forever they were not. As it pertains to those redeemed to God by the blood of Christ, we recognize ourselves for the filthy sinners we truly are before a just and righteous God, we repent of that and turn towards God, receive the sacrifice that Jesus Christ made on our behalf, and begin our individual walk down the path through this physical life with Him. And when we stumble and fall off the path, Christ is there, helping us place our feet back onto the path to walk with Him. The Bible says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. The difference is that once a person gets redeemed, his heart is changed, and strives to please the Lord his God, rather than to rail against Him. The old saying applies here, “Christians aren’t perfect, but they are forgiven”.
Sometimes the TRUTH “suks”, expecially whenever we don’t want to hear it. God says, “Who hath ears to hear, let him hear”. Do you have ears to hear, or are you ignoring the truth and allowing your feet to scurry you down the path to your own destruction?
“The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God”. The Bible says that you are a fool. You are a free moral agent, and are perfectly free to believe anything your mind desires. If you choose to believe that this present creation we live in is just a giant cosmic mistake, no one can stop you from doing so.
Again, you are confusing two seperate things. If the bible is true, then God is totally just, and totally righteous. Sin in any form is wholly unacceptable to Him or in His presence. How He chooses to deal with those who sin against Him, in His own creation, isn’t for us to judge. Hey, I know, when you speak your own creation into existance, you can run IT any way you like…fair enough?
And again, depending upon what covenant of the past or the Law that you lived under during that particualr age, between mankind(you) and God, there were consequences of ones actions, pure and simple. There are still consequences today living in the age of Grace that we all enjoy at this time. But the only thing in this age that will assure ones place in the eternal damnation that is coming is rejecting the free gift of Grace that God has provided us, Jesus Christ.
Not for “fun”, for the sake of justice. Your problem in all this is that you are looking at what God does through the pots eyes, rather than the potters. How could the potter be wholly “just” if he made a covenant with the pots he created, and then when the pots ignored, broke, and squandered that covenant, he simply said, “oh well, what the hell”…
Again, IF you really wanted to know the truth, you could purchase some books on the subject of God’s Covenants with mankind. You might actually be surprised at the various different ways that God has dealt with mankind through the ages, and how many times man has failed to live up to his promises.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 11:37 AM
Loundry, where do you get the idea that “Every individual has the right to life, liberty, and property.”?
Darksbane on October 3, 2007 at 11:38 AM
Yes, it is! You claimed that I had “no good reason” to argue that killing a baby was wrong, as if it were completely arbitrary when, in fact, it’s not.
It sounds like you’re already pretty biased against it. It sounds like explaining it to you would be a waste of time.
Are you saying that some other non-Christian philosophies can be correct? That’s a pretty big admission for you to make!
Then you would agree that your god deprived the Amelekite children of their right to life and was wrong to do so.
Where did I claim that children are just “bags of meat”? Do you fail to see that you are primed and ready to beat up a strawman of your own making?
I would like you to say something like, “I think we Christians have been pretty rotten to gay people and should start treating them with kindness.” I don’t think that is too much to ask.
It sounds like your response to that is, “No, abusing gay people is precious to me, and I’m not ready to give that up. I would much rather fight with you.”
So … IT’S ON! But I’d much rather fight with you in the open where you are forced to admit publicly that killing babies is sometimes holy. And, in your screwed-up morality, it sometimes is.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 11:39 AM
Why do you care what my answer is? To you, it’s wrong by definition, so explaining it you would be a waste of precious time.
Interestingly enough, the right to life, liberty, and property is written into our Constitution whereas Jesus Christ was left out. He didn’t make the cut, so to speak.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 11:41 AM
So you can’t/won’t answer the question. Thats fine, but I thought it was on, guess not.
Darksbane on October 3, 2007 at 11:44 AM
Wow, Loundry sure has a lot of anger toward Christians. What happened to you? A Christian not ‘act like a Christian’ to you?
What you don’t understand Loundry is that the Christian God CREATED EVERYTHING. He wiped everything out when the people sinned against him through the flood.
He punishes people when they disobey. Sort of like when you break the law you get thrown in prison – or – GASP put to death.
And again, it is a historical story in the Bible. It doesn’t say to do anything NOW. It was a time in history that is documented in the Bible. The lesson is ‘obey God’ and you won’t have to suffer the consequences.
You’d understand that as ‘follow the law and you won’t have to go to jail’.
The whole world is God’s Creation. He set it up to be perfect without sin. All man had to do was OBEY. But God created man with the ability to CHOOSE. God wanted a companion to enjoy His Creation. . . sort of a caretaker. But He had to know that the caretaker wasn’t going to screw it up so he put a test in place to see if Man would Obey the God who created them and gave them everything (life, liberty, love, family, food, water, animals).
When man did not obey, God began punishing to save His Creation from the Man with FREE WILL. But He established a ‘new covenant’ (the New Testament) through Jesus when He died on the cross as sacrifice for payment for the original sin to make Creation whole again for those that accepted.
Everyone doesn’t see it. It is why GRACE is important. God’s GRACE enables people to understand what they need. Some people have Grace, some people refuse to see Grace. But the world is the Lord’s to do as He sees fit no matter whether or not you believe in Him.
You neglect to mention ALL THE TIMES that God Helped those who obeyed. You point out the times that He punished those who disobeyed. But time and time again when the Jews were in exile and they didn’t think they would make it, God saved them. Over and Over and Over again. Please read Exodus and then tell me what you think of this all powerful and merciful Being.
ThackerAgency on October 3, 2007 at 12:03 PM
Again, you can “think” anything you like, but that doesn’t make it truth. And understanding isn’t defending. God is God, He certainly doesn’t need me to defend anything. Hell, I can’t even defend myself, I’m a sinner saved by Grace, and that’s about it.
In other words, if you are going to play the game, you had better be willing to suffer the consequences when you lose. What you are purposing is the same as playing a game of poker, and when someone loses a hand, you just give them their money back. That’d be cheating the rest of the people at the table.
More or less, I guess you can look at it that way if you like. Except the “abortion” that awaits those who reject God’s free gift of Grace won’t be nearly as horrid as the eternity after that. As for worrying about how I type, as for me and my house, I choose to worship and honor the Lord. You are free to do what you like, for now.
How do you know that they didn’t? Look, no one was ever “saved” by the Law or anything else. God’s promise was clear from the start, that a Savior was coming. Those who entered into a covenant with God, and held true to God and His promise to send the Messiah, found themselves after physical death in a place called “Paradise”, where they awaited the coming of Christ. In this age, that place is empty, because when Jesus died and went to Hell, He brought the people trapped in Paradise with Him when they received Him.
Let’s suppose a different analogy. Let’s say that a person gets redeemed to God in this age of grace, and then let’s suppose that the person falls off the path they are walking with Christ and gets AIDS or something. Now, since there is no condemnation for those in Christ, let’s suppose that that person confesses what he has done and is forgiven, because God promises to do that on behalf of those who identify themselves with Christ. That person is most likely STILL destined to deal with the consequences of his actions, and suffer and die from AIDS. Does this make God “evil” because the man is suffering the consequences of his own actions in this life? Does suffering the consequences of those actions here take away from the glorious eternity that awaits him after physical death?
The true response of the believer to ANYTHING that God’s word reveals is detestable to Him is hatred of said action. It can be nothing less than that. But we are all human, getting ones spirit redeemed merely begins ones journey in this life of the battle within ones self of that which is of God, against all of that which stands against Him. The flesh, the pride, the arrogance, and everything else that is within ourselves in this physical realm stands ready to corrupt the good works that a believer is capable of THROUGH and only though Christ. The easiest thing a person can do in this life is to NOT become a christian, because then they don’t have to wage a daily battle between their spirits quest to please God, and their body and physical minds quest to “do what thou wilt” instead. That’s why real temples of worship are found in the hearts of believers, NOT in a building someplace. The “victory” that is in Jesus is found in everyday life, as the believer “put off the old self” and chooses to replace his old ways with those of the God he falls on his knees before.
The correct response of the redeemed believer to the repentant homosexual is, “come, let us struggle against sin together” because of our mutual love for the Lord. But the response of the believer towards the further of the homosexual agenda can be nothing but war against it, for it is truly NOT in the best interest of a God fearing Nation to embrace it.
Again, a just and righteous God has no choice but to carry out that justice. And when the end of this age comes, justice will be dealt out accordingly to all who have lived during it. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf will be the only thing standing between you and me and the very wrath of God Himself. Like the movie line said, you must choose, so choose wisely.
No, it’s your fault that you choose to not look deep enough into it to understand the ramifications and results of man’s own actions in the past as it pertains to their dealings with a just and righteous God. There is an old song that says that “a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest”, you can certainly choose to ignore the truth and believe what you want to believe instead, if that gives you what you need to allow yourself to rationalize what you want to do instead…it’s not “choosing wisely” though.
Again, you don’t know that He didn’t. All of those “children” that you are misconstruing the verse as referring to may be enjoying their eternity with Him even now, while you are mistakenly using their physical death to help pave your own personal road to Hell for your eternity…how ironic that, huh.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 12:21 PM
Loundry,
Good stuff.
Please read Exodus and then tell me what you think of this all powerful and merciful Being.
ThackerAgency
The part where he killed the firstborn was kinda neat, as was wiping out the Egyptian army. Destroying their crops was great. I really liked how he made sure Ramases would NOT let the Israelites go, so he bring forth all kinds of nasty.
It was also cool when he screwed Moses over. “See that? That’s the Promised Land. You’ve been a jerk, M, so no country for you!”
Krydor on October 3, 2007 at 12:24 PM
If your religious beliefs teach you that homosexuality is wrong, then you should be free to live your life in a way that avoids eternal damnation. Christ described the kindness of a Samaritan and further instructed his followers to love their enemies. If someone intrinsically feels that the only natural way for them to express love for another human being is with someone of the same sex, I think it is fundamental to our notions of American liberty and Christian love that we allow them to do so in a way that fully recognizes them.
dedalus on October 3, 2007 at 12:33 PM
I wrote this before, and I’ll repeat it for your edification:
Maybe if you were to have the culture at large including the courts and the police department united in belief that you should not only suffer ETERNAL TORTURE but have a crappy-as-possible life until your well-deserved death from AIDS, then you just might begin to understand the depth of my bitterness. I don’t have to forgive, but I am willing to be polite if the Christians cease with all of the “pervert” and “abomination” excrement, only because I think Leftism and Islam are worse than Christianity.
And, to answer your question, I don’t think that Christians have “not acted like Christians” toward me. I think that their abuse toward me is entirely Christian, because abuse of gay people is part and parcel of that religion. Christians regard the abuse of gay people to be as important to their faith as resisting abortion (ridiculously, consider that their god mandated it) and loving Jesus.
How can you say that I “don’t understand” when you say things that are so blatantly wrong? Your god did not wipe everything out with the flood because Noah, Noah’s family, and two of every creature that walks the earth (yeah, right) were NOT wiped out. Do you even read your own Bible? Or are you just mad that I’m pointing out how disgusting and wicked your evil god is and arguing without thinking?
Please verify for me:
1. Consensual gay sex is always wrong. (Yes/No)
2. Murdering a baby is sometimes acceptable. (Yes/No)
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Can’t? Incorrect. Won’t? Correct, because it would be a waste of time. You have no interest in knowing what I believe outside of saying, “It’s wrong!” and assuming Christianity to be “true by default”.
Please verify for me:
1. Consensual gay sex is always wrong. (Yes/No)
2. Murdering a baby is sometimes morally right. (Yes/No)
Is it, in fact, on? Let’s see how good you are at the “can’t / won’t” game, you, worshipper of the Lord of Hosts and Ethnic Cleansing.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 12:43 PM
And that’s perfectly fine, and if and when you are able to convince enough of America that despite what the God of the Bible says to the contrary and that “gay is good”, then maybe it will become the law of the land. But don’t mistakenly fool yourself into thinking that defining people by who they choose to have sex with is anything akin to the “civil rights” deserving of people whose skin color unfortunately happens to define them in our culture. To the mind that thinks to itself, “do what thou wilt”, the perversion that is homosexual sex will seem a fairly small thing, compared to the mind that believes what the God of the Bible says is truly going on in this present world, which is perhaps all too soon to be history anyway. The truth is clear to anyone who reads the news, man IS ‘waxing worse and worse” in this age, the push to homosexualize the world is just a small portion of it.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 12:51 PM
How do you know that what God offers you can’t turn your “crappy as possible life” into something else entirely? Or, do you so enjoy your “crappy as possible” life, that you choose to run away from God for that reason?
And Do you REALLY think that your “crappy as possible” life is somehow going to magically change by convincing an “on the highway to hell” society to accept homosexual sex as “normal”? Man, this present life is far more fleeting than that…it isn’t about now, it’s about forever after that. I truly hope you find your way.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 1:00 PM
For most of our country’s history we had laws that differentiated people based on skin color. We had a civil war that, in part, was fought to preserve enslaving people based on skin color.
There is something inherent in some people that make them strongly atracted to the opposite sex. I am and I’d find it astonishingly difficult if society told me that the right thing to do was to have a marital relationship with another man.
There is something inherent in some people that make them strongly attracted to the same sex. Some say it is genetic and some say it is formed in the early years. If it is either of those two cases I’d find that discriminating against gays marrying is analogous to anti-miscegenation laws which weren’t struck down nationwide until 1967.
dedalus on October 3, 2007 at 1:09 PM
That cuts both ways, Christian.
Stop trying to change the subject. Please verify:
Is violent, forced abortion sometimes moral? (Yes/No)
No, less! You claimed that everyone is going to suffer the same fate when, in fact, NOT everyone is going to be violently aborted by your god’s psychotic followers. You and I are living proof of that.
Because they were murdered by your god’s psychotic followers, as BABIES, long before Jesus was ever born and long before the new covenant was instituted!
I’d rather just call you a worshipper of an evil, baby-killing god, which is the truth. You can dispute the “evil” part (by claiming that killing babies, violently, is good), but not the baby-killing part.
That is wild speculation considering that there is no evidence at all of anyone enjoying any “glorious eternity” after death. Furthermore, it’s a recipe for abuse since, after all, what does it matter whom we torture or kill since their treasure is in heaven, anyway?
In other words, “No, I’m going to continue to abuse gay people”.
Have it your way, pervert. Gay anal sex is orders of magnitude less perverted and disgusting than your evil god is is because gay anal sex never killed thousands upon thousands of babies. If you started worshipping sodomy as opposed to your baby-killing, ethnic cleansing, abortionist god then that would be a moral step up for you.
That is so immensely stupid. How can an allegedly omnipotent god have “no choice” in anything at all? He can do ANYTHING! He has choices that you can’t even imagine! You are claiming that he was FORCED to kill those babies and children. Bullshit! He could have turned all those babies and children into potatoes, or he could have made everyone start having sex, or he could have drawn a square circle and called it “Wednesday”. He’s omnipotent!
The only choice you are left with is that your god WANTED to kill babies and children. He did it more than once. And he also aborted some kids, too, by ripping their mothers open.
Why didn’t you suffer the same fate? Wouldn’t that be “just”?
That makes absolutely no sense! How can you write such idiotic things to me? Let me try to spell it out for you:
1. If your god is just, then everyone should immediately die.
2. If your god is merciful, then everyone should be saved.
As it is, your god willy-nilly kills who he wants and saves who he wants. When he slaughters millions of screaming, helpless infants, then you call it “just”. When he allows murderers and rapists (think Couey) to murder and rape, then you call it “mercy”. You can’t have it both ways!
He had them killed! How could he “save them from themselves” if they were killed as helpless infants, or, better yet, as fetuses?
I honestly think you are holding on to “I’m right, and that’s that” out of pure stubbornness because your arguments are no longer making sense.
Why in the world did you put children in scare quotes? Are you implying that they are somehow not children? Do you need to read your Bible again? Here it is:
“Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.” 1 Sam 15:13
(Bonus question: what sin did the sheep, camels, and donkeys commit that warranted their deaths?)
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6, words of Christ
Where did the Amelekite children accept Christ? Kind of hard to do that since Jesus hadn’t been born yet and the new covenant hadn’t been instituted yet! Or maybe they were sucked up to heaven in a fiery Chariot like Elijah was? Where does scripture say that?
Even now, you are trying to change the subject of baby killing as a holy act (it was, according to your perverted morality) into something about salvation and my own moral failings. Get this straight: it is disgusting that you worship a baby-killing, abortionist god. I could perform fellatio non-stop for the rest of my life, and that would be infinitely less disgusting than looking at a baby-killer and deciding that you want him as your moral compass.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 1:18 PM
Funny how all those things you mentioned before (assuming you were referring to them as ‘proof’ that He’s bad) were done to PROTECT the people who BELIEVED in ONE God. Notice also in those stories. . . did PEOPLE do the killing? or did God fight his own battles for himself ‘thank you very much’? – highlights a major difference in Christianity and other religions (Islam).
He didn’t let the people into the promised land because they did not obey. His main commandment – that you still don’t get – is to OBEY the Creator! Why? Because He knows His Creation better than YOU. He LOVES His Creation more than you do too.
I bet Noah thought this God was pretty MERCIFUL for telling him that he was going to KILL ALL THOSE OTHER BABIES. I’m glad you know the story though. Consider yourself fortunate. In Saudi Arabia they aren’t given the opportunity to hear the story of the ALL POWERFUL – yet LOVING and MERCIFUL God.
Believe what you want. But using what you personally believe about homosexuality and using that to explain your hostility toward Christianity is disingenuous. Christians aren’t hostile toward homosexuals, homosexuals are hostile toward Christians because Christians call a sin a sin.
At least we recognize that there are homosexuals here. Maybe we could let Rosie enjoy the fruits of Iran where there are no homosexuals. She could be the first and lead the homosexual revolution to those friends of hers.
ThackerAgency on October 3, 2007 at 1:26 PM
Because I am an EX-Christian. I know what it’s like to live your lifestyle and your crappy religion, and now I think it sucks.
When have you walked in my shoes? Tell me: what is like to be me?
Do you understand that it is abuse of Christians which is the worst aspect of being gay? Do you understand that it is you and your perverted co-religionists who have fought hard to make my life difficult?
All I want is for the abuse to stop, and I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
If by doing so then they stop calling me “pervert” and “abomination” and trying to legislate against me, then, yes, that would make my life better. How do you think it feels to have the majority of Christians in the world think you’re despicable and a threat to children? Tell me, how bad does it feel to be on the receiving end of your abuse as opposed to the giving end of it?
Do you understand that people, particularly young people, see that in you and say, “Wow, Christianity sucks!”?
That is what this discussion is about.
In other words, “We Christians can abuse gays all we want in this life because their treasure is in heaven!”
Sick, sick, sick!
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 1:27 PM
ummm. . . do you also believe that smoking doesn’t cause cancer?
From what I understand there is a disease called AIDS that is caused by GAY ANAL SEX. And I do believe it has killed. . . shall we say . . . ‘thousands?’
ThackerAgency on October 3, 2007 at 1:29 PM
Oh, I get it now, Loundry CLAIMS TO BE gay.
Look dude, don’t try to get everyone to be OK with what you do. If you picked your nose, people would say it was gross, but you could do it anyway. Your problem would be with people calling it gross. It would be gross.
Do what you want, but you are accepted by Christianity. You are a sinner just like everyone else. Christianity begins there. If you don’t believe you sin, you don’t need Jesus. But homosexuality is a sin. Your ‘hurt feelings’ won’t change that.
ThackerAgency on October 3, 2007 at 1:33 PM
Wouldn’t it have been more merciful for your god to have just saved everybody as opposed to slaughtering the world’s babies wholesale? Your god is “merciful”, after all.
Merciful enough to kill babies and children? Yes, it’s fake “Christian mercy” to go along with fake “Christian love”.
I will be hostile toward YOU until your abuse of gays stops. An eye for an eye! It’s pretty easy to be critical of you considering that you WORSHIP an evil, baby-murdering god. Disgusting!
This is the “Big Lie” of Christianity. “All Christians are doing is calling a sin a sin.”
I challenge you to come out as gay and live that way for a year, telling all your friends and family that you are now gay. Tell me what your life will be like after that. Will it be in any way more difficult than living your life as a straight man?
I repeat:
I don’t have to forgive, but I am willing to be polite if the Christians cease with all of the “pervert” and “abomination” excrement, only because I think Leftism and Islam are worse than Christianity.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 1:40 PM
Funny how all those things you mentioned before (assuming you were referring to them as ‘proof’ that He’s bad) were done to PROTECT the people who BELIEVED in ONE God. Notice also in those stories. . . did PEOPLE do the killing? or did God fight his own battles for himself ‘thank you very much’? – highlights a major difference in Christianity and other religions (Islam).
No, those were examples of God’s super love as requested by you from Exodus. God wiped out people on purpose by hardening the heart of the ruler of Egypt. After every plague, it was all “you, get lost! Oh, I’ve changed my mind for no apparent reason!”
He didn’t let the people into the promised land because they did not obey. His main commandment – that you still don’t get – is to OBEY the Creator! Why? Because He knows His Creation better than YOU. He LOVES His Creation more than you do too.
No, he waited until Moses was dead to let them in, as shown in the next book. It was specifically a slight against Moses.
Obey, indeed. Seeing as how I’ve not been told by God to do anything, what am I supposed to obey?
Krydor on October 3, 2007 at 1:41 PM
This is a wonderful example of “Christian love”:
“Gays deserve to die from AIDS.”
Indeed, “all” you are doing is calling a sin a sin (and wishing death by AIDS upon gays as divine retribution for their sin). You gay-bashing Christians are so full of crap. What a sucky, deceitful religion you follow to go along with your sucky, abortionist god.
Furthermore, are you claiming that gay anal sex killed babies? Which one killed more babies: your evil god, or gay anal sex? It’s a competition! I think your god is presently in the lead and will stay there way forever, particularly since your god is omnipotent and could save all babies if he wanted to.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 1:46 PM
It depends on whom you as. There are plenty of leftist gays who deny that I’m “truly gay” because I don’t like drag queens or the “gay pride” parade.
Christian abuse of gays goes quite a bit farther than merely calling it gross. Do some straights have “gross” sex? Do you treat them exactly the same way that you do gays? (Do I have to ask such blatantly obvious questions? Yes, I do.)
I could walk into any Southern Baptist church and proclaim to the congregation that I am gay, and they would love me immediately and unconditionally. In fact, they would exalt me and wish they could be like me.
And that’s why Christianity sucks. The “born bad” theology blows pony.
Notice the Christian bully excuses his vicious abuse by mocking his victim’s pain. How do you think it would feel to be on the receiving end, you pervert? I suppose if you can fathom loving a baby-killer and using him as your moral compass then you can excuse all kinds of horrible abuses.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 1:53 PM
What ? Another Evil Atheism vs Superdupermoral Christianity thread?
Do you really have a monopoly on morality?
And where’s your “love and compassion”, you atheismophobes? lol
Syndic Nuruodo on October 3, 2007 at 2:07 PM
Pathetic, how they can’t simply believe without needing to attack nonbelievers.
Logic works both ways here, isn’t it ? ;)
Matthew 7
7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged
7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Syndic Nuruodo on October 3, 2007 at 2:22 PM
I have to comment on this again because it is really revealing about the Christian attitude toward gays. ThackerAgency can’t even get the mainstream AIDS dogma correct, which states that AIDS is the name of the syndrome which is caused by a breakdown of the immune system due to “HIV infection”. The mainstream AIDS dogma states that anyone can get “HIV”, gay or straight, through both anal and vaginal sex as well as through sharing needles and blood transfusions.
To ThackerAgency, that dogma is disregarded.
To him, AIDS is caused by gay anal sex. Period.
I think this is a mainstream view of many Christians: the dirty sex of gays causes them to get sick and die, and gays deserve to die painful and humiliating deaths. And, afterwards, gays will be tortured for all eternity.
I call this “Christian love”.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 3:23 PM
Loundry, thanks for answering my question.
Unfortunately, you’re wrong. If you abandon the idea that mankind is special, no one has any right to life, liberty, or property unless the government grants them such.
Should the government decide that Jews, gays, the elderly, and/or the disabled are not worthy of life, then there is absolutely no reason for them to live.
In nature, the strong dominate and kill the weak. This is the way of nature, therefore it is natural and it is right.
Prove me wrong.
It is contested whether or not homosexuality is dangerous to life.
You yourself commented on AIDS and its effects on the gay population. Add bisexuality and “bug-chasing” to the mix, spice it up with virus mutation and you’ve got a potential pandemic on your hands.
I didn’t say it was A-OK. I implied it was sometimes necessary to prevent a greater tragedy. War is never good. That doesn’t mean there’s no such thing as a just war.
If you would rather that all babies live, then you believe in the Judeo-Christian God moreso than the people who were annihilated by the Israelites, for they sacrificed their children on fiery altars on a regular basis. They did not love their own children and would have slowly but surely annihilated the Israelites. This is exactly the same thing we see the Muslims doing to their children and the entire world right now.
When push comes to shove, you won’t have the stomach to support what needs to be done to protect yourself from such a fate. That’s fine, as long as you understand from your protection comes and stop trying to eliminate it.
If I had to guess, it was like being raised Catholic, having either no father or a no-good one, and probably throw some abuse by the clergy on top for good measure.
angryoldfatman on October 3, 2007 at 3:33 PM
Do you mean that only your fear of “god” and the government
prevents you from robbing and murdering other people ?
What a nice morality you have then.
Wrong. Senseless killing of your own kind is NOT the way of nature at all.
Syndic Nuruodo on October 3, 2007 at 4:01 PM
Pathetic, how they can’t simply believe without needing to attack nonbelievers.
Logic works both ways here, isn’t it ? ;)
Syndic Nuruodo on October 3, 2007 at 2:22 PM
Actually, stupid, RESPONDING to an attack is quite different than issuing an attack via the use of lies. But then, as you said “logic works both ways here, isn’t it?”
JWS on October 3, 2007 at 4:14 PM
Logic works both ways here, isn’t it ? ;)
Syndic Nuruodo on October 3, 2007 at 2:22 PM
How old are you, 5?
JWS on October 3, 2007 at 4:19 PM
Angryoldfatman,
Thank you for your reply. It is actually quite thoughtful and I appreciate it.
You’ve raised several interesting points here, and it’s hard to respond to you because I agree in some places and disagree in others.
1. I do think humanity is special because of our cognitive ability. The question “What is human?” is a complex philosophical question that is far beyond the scope of any discussion in this thread.
2. I do not agree that a government’s abrogation of an individual’s right to life, liberty, or property makes such an action just. Instead, that is the action of an unjust government. I do not see a great division between ethics and politics; rather, I think politics is merely an extension of ethics as it applies to matters of the force wielded by government.
3. That which is natural is unrelated to that which is moral. The behavior of instinct-driven animals is not a model for rational human beings with the power of choice.
4. “Might makes right”. Yes, or no, depending on how you look at it.
So I’m not sure how to respond to your challenge of “prove me wrong”.
I will heartily agree that “gay culture” is harmful to life, because “gay culture” is merely a far-too-polite term for rank hedonism. “Gay culture” is about living in the ghetto, consuming drugs, pursuing sex, obsessing over youth and appearance, and, in general, living hard and dying young. It’s a pursuit of pleasure and a disregard for individual flourishing, as all hedonism is. And I also think that it is a cause of AIDS.
Note that I wrote “A cause” of AIDS, because I think AIDS is multi-factorial, and I do not think it’s caused by a unique retrovirus called “HIV”. That discussion is also far, far beyond the scope of anything in this thread, but do not presume to challenge me on it unless you know enough about immunology such that you can explain the polyclonal properties of antigens to me.
I agree with everything you wrote there, but it does not apply to an omnipotent god. Nothing is “necessary” to your god. He is omnipotent and can do anything. He is also defined as holy and sinless, and that means that his choice to murder children and infants was good and holy. Frankly, I think it’s far more disgusting than gay anal sex could ever be in any circumstance, including prison rape.
In your morality, there’s nothing inherently wrong with murdering babies — it’s only wrong when your god didn’t tell you to do it. So I don’t understand your attempt to generate moral outrage over the baby-murdering antics of the enemies of the Israelites. After all, your god did it, too. I abhor all of it while you must excuse some of it.
Islam sucks worse than Christianity, agreed. That doesn’t mean I’m going to put up with Christian bullying. All I want is Christians to stop abusing gays, and I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
I beg to differ. If you and I recognize the threat that Islam poses to both of us, then we can join hands and be allies. If we are both willing to put down our animus toward each other, then I’ll take a mujahid’s bullet for your child when push comes to shove. But it takes two. Whether a Christian can stomach having a gay atheist as an ally against Islam is the salient question.
Interesting. Do you really believe that my homosexuality was caused by abuse and/or bad parenting? Do you think that most homosexuality was caused by abuse and/or bad parenting? I’m not completely surprised that people feel this way — I’ve just never talked to someone who actually held on to this belief.
Myself (grew up Protestant), my partner (grew up Catholic), and our best friend (grew up Jehovah’s Witness), all three of us gay, all recently shared our experiences with each other growing up gay among religious people. Are you curious what those experiences might have been like, or do you chalk it all up to “abuse” and bad parenting and leave it at that?
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 4:26 PM
It’s the way of *some* nature.
Prides of lions typically have one male over many females. A new male may attempt to take over the pride by fighting with the current reigning male. If the new male wins, then he will kill each and every one of the cubs that were sired by the previous male. It’s brutal. And, from my own philosophical perspective, it’s senseless. I am an adoptive parent, after all. But the actions of instinct-driven animals are no basis for human beings who have reason and choice at their disposal.
Loundry on October 3, 2007 at 4:30 PM
Non sequitur. Everything God does is moral, whether man likes it or not. People in past ages who lived under various covenants suffered the consequences of their actions, whether you like it or not.
Again, pre-this age of grace, no one was saved from eternal death by any other means other than their faith in God’s promise to send the Messiah.
Whatever
Actually, the “evidence” you seek does exist, but it’s contained at a place where unbelievers cannot find it. It exists in the hearts of believers and is born witness to by the Holy Spirit to the believer. Unbelievers are spiritually dead already, so they have no access to the witness God sends to believers.
Again, the true response of the believer to ANYTHING that God’s word reveals is detestable to Him is hatred of said action. Those who stand against God and His word, believers will stand against, period.
Again, whatever. You are attempting to rationalize sin by how it stands on a scale of your own design. There may well be other people out there who believe that homosexual sex is far worse than anything else in the world. What then would make what they believe of less value than what you claim here. No, God dictates what is acceptable and what is not, and we are free to like it or not, but it will be applied to us at judgement either way.
Again you are arguing a non sequitur. God does what He does, and what He does is totally just, regardless of how or I might like to interpret it for our own devices. The wages of sin IS spiritual death, period. We are all deserving of it.
Don’t confuse physical death with eternal spiritual death. God is just in that He has decreed that the wages of sin is spiritual death. Everyone who has ever lived on this earth is born spiritually dead. Only those who are redeemed and become alive in Christ make it out the other end better off than they started. There is a saying about how this physical life is as close to Hell as a believer will ever get, but it is also as close to Heaven as someone who rejects Christ in their heart will ever get also. So I guess it should surprise no one that they who reject Gods free gift of Grace should try to grab all the gusto they can in this life, before its too late for them. As for physical death, God has decreed that it is for everyone to physically die, and then judgement.
People physically die, that’s the way the world works. Every single breath you take really is a gift to you from God, for at any moment He sees fit, your time and chance to come to Him on His terms and accept His grace for YOUR eternity is over. You really don’t comprehend how conceited what you are saying truly is in the sight of God, but someday you will see it and some day your knee will bow before him. It can either bow willingly and thankfully in this life, or by force in the next. Again, you must choose.
Reread it and stop to consider it. It really would be ironic for you to spend eternity in Hell because you were just SO angry at God for allowing the death of someone who is there at His side for eternity.
Did you read the commentary link I gave you. No, I thought not.
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 6:10 PM
I do have to notice one thing here in all of this. Considering how most christians really want little more than for homosexual sex to simply stay in the closet where it belongs, compared to say, Islam, that has no qualms about capital punishment for homosexuals, how many Islamic BB’s are all these people going to and railing on Muslims like they are doing here?
None I’d wager…
NRA4Freedom on October 3, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Which means that abortion is sometimes moral, because your god did it and everything your abortionist god does is moral. Thank you for confirming it, though I would have appreciated it if you didn’t wiggle like a worm on a hook. Forthrightness isn’t your strong point.
False. Elijah was saved by a fiery chariot. Furthermore, where does scripture justify what you claimed?
Even more, where does scripture say that the babies who were murdered by your baby-killing god had faith in the coming messiah and were saved by it? Considering they were Amalekites, it will be hard for you to support that they had faith in a Jewish messiah.
There is nothing in your heart except blood and tissue, unless you were using “heart” as a euphemism for your imagination. And, if that’s true, then you and I are in perfect agreement. I have no access to your wild fantasies about your selfish rewards in your mystical afterlife.
Then how did you come to believe it? You were “spiritually dead” too, once.
You are NOT giving up on abusing gay people, I get it!
In response, I will NOT relent in attacking Jesus Christ’s character. An eye for an eye! If your god killed babies, then maybe he also had gay anal sex. Certainly gay anal sex isn’t as bad as killing a baby, right?
Those are awfully arrogant words from someone who WORSHIPS an ethnic cleansing baby-killer. Disgusting! How could you possibly be so proud of what you CHOOSE to do?
Actually, the non-sequitur is yours! Whether or not your god “does what he does” has nothing to do with your claim that your god had “no choice” but to mandate the violent murder of children and infants. If your god is omnipotent, then he wasn’t pigeon-holed into murder as you claim he was. You have no way out: your god WANTED to kill babies. I think he did it because he finds the terrified screams of babies to be as pleasing as the smell of burnt animal sacrifices.
I repeat: that “born bad” theology, so comforting to you, blows ponies.
Since you’re trying to SPIN your god’s quite literal death penalty (did Herod experience a “spiritual” death in Acts 12:23?) for sin by employing the changed-rules of the gospel. Fair enough, I can play that game, too. Your god is still unjust because the sin of which you speak is Adam’s sin, and Deut 24:16 prevents children from dying for the sins of their fathers.
But, back to the Old Testament, if we’re all, in fact, sinful (Rom 3:23), then why didn’t your god kill everybody? You can’t claim that only a “spiritual death” applied because your god applied a literal death sentence to thousands of people, children and infants, over and over again.
It’s also how your god works. In your world, he rips open pregnant women and you call it “justice”. You support abortion at least that much, right?
You must choose to reject worshipping evil gods. If you have to be superstitious, can you at least choose a god that is NOT a baby-killer? You do have a choice, after all.
Why don’t you just make the argument yourself and stop relying on hack apologists to conduct your spiritual warfare for you? Put on the full armor of your god, NRA4ForcedAbortion.
Loundry on October 4, 2007 at 10:08 AM
Guess what. The day is coming when you will stand face to face before God to give account. You may think now that you will stand before Him and mouth all the same goofy stuff you have posted in this thread to His face in your own defense, but the truth is, you will fall on your face in horror and fear and be filled self loathing for the opportunities squandered when it happens unless you soon choose a different path than the one you are on. “Sorry, I never knew you” and “Depart from me, you’ve sealed your fate” is going to be a pretty awful last thing to hear from God for an eternity my friend…
NRA4Freedom on October 4, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Comment pages: « Previous 1 2