I agree the HOM’s are a problem. they are trying to cut costs and to do that they choose to deny treatments which was the wrong way to go.

I also agree the consumer was taken out of the equation but this was due more to the tax breaks companies got for having health insurance benifits than HMO’s. Instead of increaseing the size of the market it automatically decreased the size of the market to that of big company employees.

Take government out of nthe entire healthcare system. Make the government reponsible for ensuring a fair and free market and the rest will take care of itself. Give the savings back to the people in the form of tax credits.

I didn’t say that HAD to let them die. I just stated that they could if they didn’t want to treat them. We more risk more people will get insurance. that is the way you get people to get health insurance. Like car insurance if you don’t have it you don’t get your plate and a fine add to that that you may not get service and people will be signing up in droves.

So what is the problem with requiring all people to have insurance?

How do you even do this? Sure, you can pass a law, but how many people live in states that require auto insurance, but they don’t have it either. In the case of illegal aliens, they already make a mockery of our laws, so how hard is it for them to ignore one more?

the government picking up the tab is a problem but the basic idea that people should take responsibility for themselves and obtain insurance is a good idea.

I agree with you completely. I cannot even imagine not having insurace (health, auto, home, etc.). But we are rapidly becoming a nanny-state, and fewer & fewer people seem to feel this way.

Also a law stating that if you do not have insurance all doctors and hospitals do not have to treat you.

I just don’t see this happening. It’s one thing to have someone be stupid and lose their house or car because it was not insured, but I know very few doctors who would stand over a patient dying of a heart attack and say “Sorry, but you have no insurance, so I must now let you die.”

Why would you work all your life and live under the risk of losing everything by not having car,health, home and life insurance? Not only is it common sense but it is a great financial advice.

Amen — couldn’t agree more. But socialized medicine is just scary on so many levels.

the reason hospital charge 12.00 for a pill is because the cost is hidden from the majority of consumers. Insurance/government picks up the cost.

unseen on September 18, 2007 at 8:55 AM

The reason hospitals charge 12.00 a pill is to offset the care that is given away to illegals and indigent patients. The result, BTW, of mandated Government programs.

Our Health Care system was just fine until congress passed the HMO act of 1973 and the final nail was when Ted Kennedy introduced the HMO Act in 1978. It caused our Health Care system to go from single payer fee based system to a HMO manged care model.

HMO’s make money by denying services and the results of the emphasis on shifting care to HMOs, and away from providing facilities for health care, were dramatic. From 1980 to 2000, over 1,000 hospitals were shutdown in the United States.

The entire HMO system was based upon permitting HMOs to deny treatment to various kinds of people. From the beginning the managed-care companies “cherry-picked” those whom they would insure–often enrolling only healthy patients, or, after open enrollment, denying access to needed specialists, tests, or treatment for those chronically ill, mentally or physically disabled. In 1976, Congress actually permitted HMOs to deny enrollment to persons institutionalized with a chronic illness or permanent injury.

HMOs have become a corporate, bureaucratic middleman in the health care system, driving up costs while undeniably degrading the quality of our medical care.

As usual, government intervention in the private market has caused unintended consequences, but Washington blames only the HMOs—not the laws that created them.

When we had fee for service before Kennedy mandated the HMO’s we did not have these problems and the free market worked just fine.. Most people today have no idea how much the “HMO” is paying for the services and that is problem.

The patient has been taken out of the loop of normal commerce.

Of course illegal aliens already receive health care at no or extremely low cost, but what about under Hitlerycare? How do you address the illegal alien angle when asked the question? What is the best way to pander for the ‘Latino’ vote?Perhaps……

I said it was simple not easy.

Like no fault car insurance everyone must have insurance. The government says you only need to have libility insurance not comp or collosion. that’s a choice.

It’s a felony now not to treat people. that’s the wrong type of law. the law should be a feleony if the insurance fails to pay. If you do not have insurance hospitals and doctors should be allowed not to treat you. yes it is cold hearted but until you put personal responsipility on people they will not do what is needed.

Most states already have an insurance committe to regulate car/home insurance premiums inside a state. Expand this for healthcare insurance. Cut the company’s tax breaks for giving healthcare and instead give everyone a tax break.

the market will drop the price to what people can afford. the reason hospital charge 12.00 for a pill is because the cost is hidden from the majority of consumers. Insurance/government picks up the cost.

To make it even more democratic I think the States should control the programs. the federal government should pass law but the states should control the committees. This gives more power to consumers and less to the insurance/drug/medical industry.

Think about it what stops utility industry from charging whatever they want. After all we need electricty to live nowadays. The market and utility commissions work hand in hand to control the price. Consumers can cut the amount of electricty used when the price gets to high. Some needs to happen with healthcare. as long as ypou have people not paying for their healthcare you will not control prices

“only charge what people/insurance can pay”
unseen on September 17, 2007 at 10:15 PM

How do you police that? Why would everyone tell how much they earn?

“disovle medicare,medicaid, and tax breaks for companies”

Can you think that one thru, kinda like you’ve just been asked by the Pres. to be the one that has to get it dissolved? the Billions of dollars already flowing somewhere in between point A and point Y or Z? People over 65 already on medicare/medicaid? nursing homes funded entirely by these two medi’s?
I abhor welfare, we could make all capable recipients work for their free money…on roads or maybe in the hospitals. THAT would save billions right there.

“Make it a felony to deny care on basis of cost..”

it is in most hospitals now.
.

“That you have a free market where citizens have a choice”

Thats the key. No more 12 dollar one pill tylenol in hospitals, $175.00 healthy visits but people shopping for price and quality.
Did you see the 20/20 Stossel show on this health care issue last Friday? Maybe its online somewhere. It covers a bunch, but not everything….which is virtually impossible at this point.

What happens if you don’t buy it? They put you in jail? Or they just let you die, if you get sick?

Or if you get sick, they treat you, (you still die) but the ‘health care professionals’ get your estate?

Or you don’t buy the insurance, get sick, and they treat you anyway, and the government pays? (So why buy the insurance?)

I’m begining to think the illegal immigrants have the right idea. Screw the law, and if something bad happens to you, go cry to the news media; “it’s so unfair! This shouldn’t happen to me!”

That, my friends, is fascism.

Translation: We’re not sure yet how the majority comes down on that point and want to feel them out.

I think this is wrong, and its more like;

Translation: Yeah we’re gonna give taxpayer funded health care to illegals, we’re just gonna BS until we get in the White House and then we’ll do it.

Yes it really is that simple. everyone pays. the government gets out of the healthcare. disovle medicare,medicaid, and tax breaks for companies. Give everyone a tax credit for their insurance and let the market work. In a market econonmy the doctors and hospitals can only charge what people/insurance can pay. Make it a felony to deny care on basis of cost by the insurance industry. Install elected committes or governmental oponted committes to regulate prices much like the utility industry.

Set up a program where the government catostropic insurance like for terroist attacks. Thus the insurance industry can figure out the max cost and price premiums in a known environment. this isn’t rocket science.

If you take the biggest payer out of the healthcare equation(government) the healthcare industry will have to charge less. The insurance companies will have a large pool of healthy people to spread the risk. Premiums should come way down.

What you want in the end is a program that EVERYONE is a member of.

That EVERYONE pays into

That you have a free market where citizens have a choice of different healthplans/premiums depending on what type of insurance they want

A market where the risks are known

and government policing the marketplace for fraud and abuse.

Contingency plans
1 HC (Hillary Care) not including illegal aliens. Top tax
bracket (which kicks in after the first $5000 of income) is increased to 56%.

2 HC (including illegal aliens). The top bracket (which starts after $500 of income) is increased to 97%.

Management expertise
Top Contributer Hsu will be the Chief Administrator.

Senior [Clinton] policy adviser Laurie Rubiner–-while acknowledging that undocumented immigrants are a “huge issue” in this country–-said, “That’s one we’re going to have to think through a little bit.”

Translation:
“We haven’t figured out yet how to pander to all sides of this issue yet…we’ll get back to you when we have”

“We have not dealt with every single detail with this plan,” Rubiner continued.

D E T A I L !?! Hundreds of bankrupted emergency departments?! How is the illegals medical problem a “detail”. If you can’t at least have some deceptive palaver which glosses over the issue at the initial roll-out of the plan, and you just punt, well, yer…dumb.

Why would they worry about 12-15 million illegal immigrants
detail.

That 12 or 15 million illegal(aliens)immigrants detail,
is that they will be voting LIBERAL,thanks to the media
pitting Republicans against Liberals on this issue.

unseen on September 17, 2007 at 9:00 PM

Are you kidding me? You think its that simple?
.
I can’t get insurance, I pay for everything myself and will have to do so for at least a couple more years.
I had neck surgery a couple years ago and 4 months later my insurance company canceled me. .Boom, done, gone.
Not enough room to explain here, but I assure you it was NOT my doing nor my preference and I had NO choice. (suit pending)
Other people have had insurance thru their job but lost their jobs. If they had pre-existing health conditions or health issues, NO insurance company will pick them up or cover them. Their insurance did not go with them…it was thru the employer ONLY.
One person( from John Stossel-20/20 the other night)was offered insurance but would have to pay $27,000 per year. she had cancer removed previously, even if she’s clean, she’s done as far as insurance goes.
-on topic of SHILLCARE, You can’t order companies/ small businesses to pay for health insurance either, unless you want nothing left but the huge big box stores like walmart and target.
80% of mom and pop type brick and mortars have under 10 employees but can’t afford to pay for health ins for every one of their employees.
There would be thousands of business closures, bankruptcies, repo’s, leases lost , businesses gone…it would be horrific.
.
Hillary would destroy this country in 8 months.
.
Privatized health care is the ONLY way to go, our gov’t cant do much right, and it definitely can not do health insurance.
Every hospital in America receives federal funds for the indigent handicapped and other needy people , but it all* gets spent on the ILLEGALS. $35 Billion is a lot of money that could be used elsewhere.
.
Stop giving America away, for free, to 20 million illegal aliens who in turn send $40 to $50 BILLION annually, in CASH ….and that’s just what they send back to Mexico.
.
Fix the illegal alien costs, reported to be a net loss of $19,000.00 per illegal alien in America per year, then insurance might change a little,…. maybe.
.
.
*seemingly

So lets look at canada spending on universal health care…

Public-sector spending is expected to reach $98.8 billion by the end of the year, up from $74.7 billion five years ago in 2001, with a majority of spending going toward hospitals and physicians. CIHI estimates private-sector health care spending (mostly insurance and out-of-pocket expenditures) will reach $43.2 billion this year, up from $32.0 billion five years ago, with more than half of private-sector health care dollars expected to go toward drugs and dentistry.
Those numbers were as of 2005, and the public spending growth rate was at about 7.3% per year.

And we have a population 1/10th your size

.

We have not dealt with every single detail with this plan

12-15 million illegal immigrants = a detail

Hmmm.