Moonbats on the march: It’s bigger than Iraq
posted at 4:52 pm on September 16, 2007 by Bryan
Share on Facebook | printer-friendly
Michelle and I joined about a thousand patriots who came to Washington on Saturday to protect our war memorials and to show the world that Cindy Sheehan doesn’t speak for most Gold Star families or even most Americans. It was an honor to be among so many good folks who give of their own time and money to show up and support our troops when they could be doing something else. But as inspiring as the Gathering of Eagles III was, the fact is, we were outnumbered. The other side had more people, were better organized and enjoy better financing, mainly because there is no right-wing equivalent of George Soros who will commit any resources to the cause and because we have no single national organization or voice on our side who will champion the Eagles. One or two patriots in the right place could make all the difference in the world. But instead of seeing photos of patriots supporting the troops:

The world woke up today to photos like this.

These people represent the hardened anti-war left. They’re well organized by groups like ANSWER and World Can’t Wait that trace their lineages, their ideologies, their organizational skills and their funding straight back to Communist groups. They have the money muscle of George Soros behind them and they get favorable media coverage. Having slipped in among them for a little while Saturday and also during two previous marches, I can tell you that not only do they believe all the nonsense they say — everything from “America is a police state,” said with a straight face while standing on the steps of the Capitol that has crafted policies that these folks oppose, to believing that Bush and Cheney are actual war criminals — they enjoy saying it. The louder and more profane they get, the more they enjoy it. If they can make it a song, all the better. These people love what they’re doing: They love prophesying doom and they love hating me and you and most of their fellow Americans.

It’s not too hard to see what makes them tick. Like most everyone else on the planet, these people want to be a part of something larger than themselves. For most Americans, this need is satisfied by having families or going to church or belonging to a group or club or softball team; for the moonbats, it can only be fulfilled by marching around militantly singing John Lennon songs and pretending to be an evolutionary step past me and you. We’re not going reach them with reason, we’re not going to out-cuss them, and we’re not going to intimidate them. They hate America and everything it stands for, they revel in their self-appointed hero status, and they also revel in a kind of self-granted martyr status if you confront them. And if you get in their face or do something that they don’t like, the “peace” rhetoric gives way to violent action in a nanosecond. I have some footage for proof.
So that’s the bad news. The good news is, they’re a minority of the anti-war set. These are the hardened ones, and they’re pretty much unreachable in the short term. A few might peel off and become the next David Horowitz, but most of them won’t, and the ones who do will take years or decades to come around. Most of them will just always smell like hippies.
Most of the country doesn’t like these people and doesn’t listen to them. Most of the country is still open to the idea that America is actually a force for good in the world and not the source of all evil. Most of the country still wants to win in Iraq, but has lost patience with the fight for one reason or another (and there are some good reasons to have lost patience with the entire political class in Washington regardless of political party). Without being able to bring huge numbers of counter protesters to the streets whenever the moonbats can, how do we reach the rest of the country and remind them that the war is worth fighting and winning?
Well, one of the things that I try to keep in mind is that whether we win or lose, what happens in Iraq won’t stay in Iraq. If we leave before we have defeated al Qaeda and set up a stable government, there probably will be a genocide in Iraq (and it’s a shame that Sen. Barack Obama is evidently fine with that), but the war is likely to spread beyond Iraq’s borders. You don’t have to care all that much about Iraq per se, and you don’t have to be a Pollyanna about the role that that Islamic revolution/reformation is playing across the Islamic world right now, to get this: It’s bigger than Iraq.
Suppose we bug out and leave Iraq to the tender mercies of al Qaeda and Moqtada al-Sadr, and his Iranian masters. The Maliki government is likely to collapse, which will be no great loss to the world, but it will take our central strategy against the Islamic jihad with it. Expect Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt to get directly or less directly involved in Iraq, and someone outside the fight is going to end up arming all of those factions. Only Iran is capable of building its own fighter jets, for instance, and its indigenous plane is mostly experimental. We might arm the Sunni side, Egypt and Jordan and the Saudis, but you can be sure that the Russians and the Chinese will end up arming the Iranian-Syrian side. If we choose not to arm anyone (which is unlikely), the Russians and Chinese will just arm both sides. If you think the Middle East is awash in arms now, just wait until we leave Iraq before it’s stable and can defend itself. As regional war breaks out in the Middle East focused on Iraq, the price of oil skyrockets, and the global economy will face a very serious crisis. This will weaken countries that are more dependent on foreign oil than we are, and strengthen the hand of oil-producers like Iran, Venezuela and Russia. So we’re probably looking at a serious economic slowdown if not a depression, if Iraq’s collapse draws its neighbors into a free-for-all, just because of what will happen to the price of oil.
But farther afield, how will the world react to America turning Iraq over to a ragtag terrorist army and assorted Shiite militias? Competitive powers like Russia and China will probably take advantage of the fact that they’ll have a freer hand to move without fearing much reaction from us. Our allies are less likely to see us as a reliable guarantor of their security. Some will chose new friends; some will arm themselves to the teeth; some will hold out hope that we’re better against conventional enemies than we are against terrorists; some will move out of our orbit and over to either Russia, China or possibly a rising India.
Take Japan, for instance, which has been a staunch ally of ours throughout the current war. If we fail in Iraq, how will Japan see our decades-long joint security arrangements? Well, Japan is already re-arming itself. Japan is already making moves to solidify its ties with India, since it has no reason to trust either Russia or China. But Japan is also apparently holding out hope that we’ll choose not to abandon her when she needs us. Others, like the Philippines, have vacillated between the US orbit and the Chinese orbit since the war began. South Korea is moving ever closer to China (and vice versa thanks to the South’s economic strength), even while the US remains its main security tripwire. Russia, for its part, is evidently testing NATO’s unity and vigilance by resuming long-range bomber flights and penetrating NATO airspace with war planes.
To the extent that the world views the US as suffering defeat in Iraq is the extent to which chaos and the threat of war rises around the world. If Putin’s (or Viktor Zebkov’s) Russia sees NATO as divided and its senior partner too weak to take down militias in Iraq, for instance, it will become more assertive in that uniquely imperialistic and Russian way: By subjugating small eastern European countries. If China sees the US as defeated in Iraq and therefore less likely to intervene internationally for a while, expect it to begin making serious moves not just on Taiwan but also on several of its small continental neighbors. Expect regional anti-American figures like Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez to become more assertive and more aggressive, which means an increased likelihood of rumblings and wars in South America, across Africa and into south Asia. That’s in addition to the war that will probably be raging in the Middle East. I’m not saying that all of these possible wars will break out the second the last US personnel are helicoptered off the embassy roof in Baghdad. I am saying the world will start sorting itself out around the new reality that we have been defeated by an insurgency, again, and that that rearrangement is unlikely to go smoothly. Figure 5 to 10 years of serious and sustained regional warfare. Sure, it’s possible that Russia and China will lose in their adventures as they did in Afghanistan and Vietnam after we left Vietnam. But it’s also possible that they might win this time around, since they’ve had a few years to study the strategies that have beaten us, and since we’re less likely to get involved in anything messy any time soon. We probably won’t have a Congress with the stomach for any conflict whatsoever.
The precedent for defeating a democratic superpower by asymmetric warfare will have been set. Would-be terrorists and revolutionists the world over will take the lessons of Iraq to heart, and will spread war wherever there is any reason at all to be a malcontent and any means at all to strike. So while terrorism isn’t likely to threaten, say, China or other totalitarian states, it’s very likely to continue to threaten the West. Every little tinpot thug will think he can blow up a mall or a school and change the world, and all because we proved that they could by leaving Iraq before crushing the life out of al Qaeda there.
The hard core anti-war people understand this, by the way, better than most of the pro-military or fence sitters do. They grasp how our failure in Iraq will play out around the world, and they’re fine with it. They’re not for peace; they’re just on the side of chaos. But I don’t think most Americans would be fine with ushering in a world like the one I’ve described: Islamism’s strength growing, and the strength of non-Islamic powers like China and Russia probably growing too, while our strength and therefore influence around the world diminishes. If we’re a force for good in the world, as most Americans believe we are, then we ought to see the fight in Iraq through to success. In choosing to leave Iraq before the fight is won, we’re not choosing peace over war. We would be trading an illusory peace for a much more dangerous series of wars right around the corner.
Those wars won’t stay in Iraq, and they won’t stay out of America.
You must be logged in to post a comment.

















Blowback
Note from Hot Air management: This section is for comments from Hot Air's community of registered readers. Please don't assume that Hot Air management agrees with or otherwise endorses any particular comment just because we let it stand. A reminder: Anyone who fails to comply with our terms of use may lose their posting privilege.
Trackbacks/Pings
Trackback URL
Comments
Comment pages:
Perfect place for these idiots in DC. Did anyone notice they were there? Seems to me they fit right in with all the elected hate America politicians and give everyone citizenship, don’t` enforce laws pres. Boosh.
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 5:03 PM
Very cool.
EXACTLY. The truth is most of them live unmanageable lives. They don’t have much meaning – and protesting gives them meaning. It’s frankly romantic to them. They’re not just a part of something big … they’re part of a revolution! History! They’re standing against “the man!”
They’re all basically junior Walter Mitty’s. And I think they know it, too. It’s why they always have to be against something rather than for it – believing they are part of some vast battle against an imagined evil makes them feel special.
It’s immaturity. Mature liberals are the ones you see working down at the soup kitchen or cleaning up highways or doing other positive stuff locally to make a difference.
Those folks may vote differently than me – but I respect them for being for something.
It’s hard to work to achieve a positive goal.
It’s easy to protest. It’s the easiest thing in the world. Especially in the land of the free.
Protesters in the ’60s faced water cannons, German shepherds, and police shotguns. These dorks face the decision of whether to post their protest pictures on their MySpace page or their FaceBook page.
How revolutionary they are. Dorks.
Professor Blather on September 16, 2007 at 5:03 PM
bryan, stop crying.
no matter you mention things like “soros money” and “favorable media coverage” and call them communists and all that jazz…it wont change anything.
am i the only one sick of how easily we on the right hide behind the fact that its tougher for us to get the message out. o’reilly? cries and cries about the MSM…bryan? cries and cries about soros and the communists.
lets stop acting like we’re losing because of anything other than our own sorry effort.
ernesto on September 16, 2007 at 5:08 PM
Thanks Michelle, Bryan and all those who marched in support of the President, The Military, and the Country.
God Bless the USA
Texyank on September 16, 2007 at 5:09 PM
Excellent points all, Bryan. Now, if only our so called leadership could do as well and as thorough a job. I have seen nothing to change my opinion of the last several years; that we are going to have to be hit at least once more, along with one or more of the scenarios playing out that you cited above, before this country even begins to wipe the sleep out of it’s eyes and take the gloves off once and for all.
tomk59 on September 16, 2007 at 5:10 PM
Great article Bryan.
Most of those people have no idea what the totality of the Iraq and Afghanistan conflict entails. Few of them understand the immediate and long term ramifications of early withdrawal. Those that do either don’t care or worse, want the chaos and loss of life that will follow.
Guardian on September 16, 2007 at 5:17 PM
Ditto — and relax…I SAW Saturday’s college football games. You didn’t really miss ANYTHING by being in DC.
Yeah. What a bunch of nimnuls.
CyberCipher on September 16, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Sobering Bryan, sobering.
Since the fall of communism, many of these anarchist with nothing better to do have infiltrated environmentalist, global warming fanatics, and other so called peace groups with the only purpose to over throw the traditional values of this country.
I wonder how long it will take before real America wakes up.
Kini on September 16, 2007 at 5:22 PM
I’m not crying. And I was there.
Bryan on September 16, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Good about the not crying part. But the sorry effort? Our soldiers fight to keep them safe and free, our streets are clean, our water is fresh, our air is clean, we’ve beaten hunger and much disease, combated prejudices of all kinds, etc. etc.– no group of people has ever had it so good. That was the fruit of effort.
But that wasn’t enough. Some people are simply not smart enough to understand how this all came about, and who supplies much of the good in the world. These people will not be persuaded. Anything less than a raw demonstration of power won’t stop them. In that way, they may be similar to some of our international opponents. It seems that people here too recognize a strong horse. By keeping them safe, they’ve forgotten fear.
JiangxiDad on September 16, 2007 at 5:27 PM
Uh … what post did *you* read? I saw exactly nothing in this post that resembles what you think you saw.
I read a factual analysis of the reality of the situation. Including the bad news and the good news and what’s likely to come next. How is that “crying?”
You didn’t actually read the post … did you? ;)
And who pissed in your Wheaties, anyway?
My bet: you’re a really upset Cincinnati Bengals fan and you’re taking out that Cleveland debacle on Bryan. Did I win a kewpie doll? Hey, my fantasy team played the Bengals defense. Imagine how grumpy I am.
Professor Blather on September 16, 2007 at 5:32 PM
I disagree that pulling out of Iraq can cause the price of oil to skyrocket. As long as the straights of Hormuz are kept open by the US Navy, the oil will continue to flow. The instability to the price of oil is already here. There is nothing that Shiite Iran can do to make things much worse in that regard. Pulling out of Iraq will allow the muslims to fight amongst themselves the way they have been doing for 1300 years.
We can not create a stable democratic government in any muslim nation, much less a shiite nation. That is a fool’s errand. The only thing we can do is to replace a secular dictator with another secular dictator and run him as a puppet. Problem solved. Surely in that mass of incorrigible, brutal humanity we call Iraq, we can find one more Saddam Hussein.
jihadwatcher on September 16, 2007 at 5:35 PM
To the extent that the world views the US as suffering defeat in Iraq is the extent to which chaos and the threat of war rises around the world.
Iraqi-centric belief system:
1) All roads start in Iraq.
2) All roads end in Iraq.
3) The Sun revolves around Iraq.
4) The Moon revolves around Iraq.
5) The Stars revolve around Iraq.
6) If the United States does not keep sufficiently large troop mass in Iraq for the rest of eternity, the orbital stability of the Earth will become profoundly unbalanced and chaos and war will engulf the entire planet (That is, of course, if Al Gore’s global warming doesn’t kill us all first!!!)
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 5:36 PM
So people should just spontaneously show up on the streets with professionally printed signs whenever the moonbats march?
Countering them effectively starts with funding, organization and promotion. The other side has all of that down pat. We don’t yet. I’m not crying or whining and I resent the suggestion that I am; I’m just pointing out the facts.
The effort on our side was by no means a sorry one and I would prefer that you use some other word. Especially if you’re being an armchair general after the fact. It was overmatched by the other side’s experience and money. They have been organizing marches for decades and it helps to have a billionaire renting buses and even Segues to move people around.
Bryan on September 16, 2007 at 5:38 PM
September 16, 2007
Sunni Leaders in Iraq Threatened:
Latest setback in the effort to turn Iraq into Massachusetts.
Now while al-Qaeda may be the nastiest of the bunch right now, the idea that defeating them will at last liberate that huge reservoir of Islamic goodwill and cooperation currently only latent is, well, fantasy. If it’s not al-Qaeda it will be somebody else — unless they are forcibly repressed.
In an Islamic context, there are exactly two kinds of regimes possible: Islamic tyrannies and non-Islamic tyrannies. Either way, force is what holds the whole thing together. And don’t talk to me about Turkey. Turkey continually oscillates between full-blown Sharia and military dictatorship. Turkey is as secular as it is thanks to Gemal’s outright repression of Islam.
Force is invariably the key: the question is whether it is employed to repress or to abet Sharia, jihad, and general Islamic imperialism. The result the US administration ostensibly desires in Iraq — a competent, popular, Shia republic — might prove the worst of the possible outcomes. It would effectively turn Iraq into another Iran. Though US policy success in Iraq hardly seems likely. Small consolation.
Greg from Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 5:43 PM
Here’s an interesting map of new pipelines through Saudi to bypass Hormuz.
Story
Map (interactive, click on the left side)
JiangxiDad on September 16, 2007 at 5:43 PM
Bryan,
I want to thank you and Michelle for being there for us. I had hoped that I could have met both of you again. Duty called me to stand with the Nam Knights at the Wall.
The silent majority needs to stand up. Perhaps they need to be educated as to who these anti-American groups are. They are not peace marchers, they are communists.
BobK on September 16, 2007 at 5:45 PM
Exposure is good for the soul, especially when the soul that’s being exposed is rotten.
The ANSWER ilk wants control, the useful idiots that support what would become totalitarian control have no idea that they’re actually trading away freedom for the Amerikan Soviet Socialist Republik.
Not having actually experienced a police state they have no idea that the America they hate so much is nothing like the real police state they’re so willing to exchange what we have now for.
WWID, what would Ike do?
Speakup on September 16, 2007 at 5:46 PM
Prognostications about the future from the same people who said, “We’ll be out of Iraq in 6 months.” Forgive me if I don’t accept your view of what will happen if we leave. No one knows. Most Americans know one thing: they don’t want our soldiers to continue dying at the rate of two, three or four a day.
B26354 on September 16, 2007 at 5:51 PM
Please answer that. All I really know about him is the Op. Wetback?? thing. Do you mean start rounding people up?
JiangxiDad on September 16, 2007 at 5:56 PM
Alright big shot, what do you think will happen if we leave Iraq unstable and with al Qaeda around to make a plausible case that it won the war?
Bryan on September 16, 2007 at 5:57 PM
It’s not rocket science. Basic human history has demonstrated what will follow if we fail. It doesn’t require much of an education or imagination to see the big picture. You just have to look beyond the Mercedes symbol.
Guardian on September 16, 2007 at 5:58 PM
Excellent work Bryan. As I was reading I kept thinking “He forgot to say this or that so I’ll put this or that in my comment” but as I kept on reading it was “Oh, there it is” to the point that you left nothing to say but “Job well done”.
Tony737 on September 16, 2007 at 5:58 PM
Bryan,
Very well written.
Mind me asking when we should be expecting footage?
terryannonline on September 16, 2007 at 6:01 PM
Make that the Mercedes symbol.
Guardian on September 16, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Our problem is a tricky issue. I have a thousand ideas about to improve our communication and win people over. The first is that we need to counter the negative images of Gitmo and the CIA as torturer. For instance, photos of Gitmo compared to other US prisons would be instructive.
Second, we need to attack the irrationality of liberal Christainity and pacifism. This could be done in a way to appeal to both the Christian Right and Atheists. The problem is that the Christian Right wants to deny that liberal Christians are Christian, but is it really that hard to admit after two millennia of Christian disagreement that there are Christians who happen to be wrong on some issues that are touched on by the Bible? Attacking Hilary’s faith as not being Christian gets us nowhere. Attacking Hilary’s faith for suggesting that we must leave Iraq because “people are dying” could get us somewhere.
I’m sorry I don’t have time to write and think more on this today, but this is the issue that must be discussed.
thuja on September 16, 2007 at 6:04 PM
Most Americans know one thing: they don’t want our soldiers to continue dying at the rate of two, three or four a day.
B26354 on September 16, 2007 at 5:51 PM
And that is largely why the Dims took majorities in both houses of congress last November. It was largely because of Iraq, not on account of their “good looks”. That is also why the HildaBeast™ instead of having virtually no chance of ever becoming President and CIC now has a pretty fair chance of doing just that and why Dims will likely make more gains in congress in 2008 and why there will not be any more Alitos or Roberts in the foreseeable future.
That will be the legacy of Iraq, unless the Republican nominee largely repudiates Bush’s Iraq.
Staying in Iraq, certainly as we are now, not leaving Iraq is what will bring disaster.
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 6:05 PM
I fixed it for you so now it sounds even *more* familiar. It could have been written in 1974.
Only a few million died as a result of that particular error in judgment from people like you. No big deal.
I like that jab about 2 or 3 soldiers dying a day. How about the dozens dying in traffic accidents every day? Or from crime violence? Frankly, the death rate for soldiers in Iraq pales by comparison. Why aren’t you out demanding we lower speed limits to 25 mph?
Ahhhhh … I know! Because that’s not partisan and political, is it?
And the best part of all? The best part of all is that you and your ilk have set up your rhetoric so that you accept exactly zero responsibility no matter what happens. It’s cowardly, yet brilliant.
If we stay in Iraq, you protest and blame soldiers’ deaths on the other side, right? You insist we get out! Now! No blood for oil! Support our troops, bring them home (and who cares what the actual troops think about it!)
And then if we do exactly what you want, and you’re wrong (and the fact that you are wrong is amazingly certain), and the inevitable happens and the number of Iraqis dying suddenly expands by several magnitudes – compared to the same number you’re protesting now – well, that’s not *your* fault, either!
Sure, it’s what you wanted. Sure, it’s exactly what you claim won’t happen. Sure, everyone knows you’re wrong (including you, if you’ve ever glanced at a history book).
But when you get your way and the troops come home … anything bad after that is STILL Chimpy McBushitler’s fault!
Must be nice to have no responsibility for anything.
Oh. Wait. Am I wrong? Are you all going to stand up, once the slaughter begins, and say – our bad! We were wrong!
No? Oh. Well, good deal. The troops stay and bad stuff isn’t your fault. The troops come home and bad stuff isn’t your fault.
Must be nice to live that kind of life sheltered from the consequences of your words and actions.
Professor Blather on September 16, 2007 at 6:07 PM
Can you point out who these people are?
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 6:10 PM
Great post Bryan.
You didn’t catch the Arkansas and Alabama game CyberCipher?
EnochCain on September 16, 2007 at 6:12 PM
Bryan, you’ve done an excellent job explaining why giving into the demands of the anti-war crowd will have horrible results. For a long time, I’ve thought that many in that crowd think our presence is what drives the bad guys to do bad things, and that if we leave, everyone will kiss and make up, as it were. That is what they seem to imply by saying “end the war”, as if our withdrawal will cause the war to stop. But I see what you’re saying – that the moonbats actually know otherwise, and welcome the chaos resulting from our retreat (or actually want it, as Guardian says).
The sad reality, as we saw in Vietnam, Lebanon (1983) and Somalia (1993), is that an American retreat does not end the war, but merely allows Communists or terrorists to carry out their evil without us in their way.
Don’t worry too much about us being outnumbered. We can use this as proof of the saying “quantity isn’t quality.”
BTW, it was nice running into you and The Boss. You were pretty easy to find, set up a good distance away from stage before the Eagles rally got started. Later on, I met Irish Eye while waiting for the moonbats on PA avenue. Too bad they kept us waiting for an hour and a half before showing up. On the other hand, I don’t mind moonbats singing John Lennon songs. I’ve done that (to the extent that my efforts can be called “singing”) a few times myself. In fact I Am The Walrus is a great one to belt out after I’ve had a few.
Bigfoot on September 16, 2007 at 6:14 PM
The United States has no stake in bringing together Sunni and Shi’a. The Bush Administration, unable to recognize its mistakes about Islam and about Iraq, appears determined to continue to invest more and more, of money and material and men’s lives — to pursue a wrong course. In this respect it reminds one of the stubborn, crazed policy pursued during
the hideous trench warfare of World War I, for no reasons that made sense, but because, once the thing started, no one could figure out how to stop it.
The generals who have, for the right reasons (not the zinni-ish line of appeasement, but because the war aims in Iraq make no real sense, the “mission” cannot be articulated by Bush because even to try to do so would show up how misguided the whole thing is) opposed the war should
speak up. And those who are with tunnel vision thinking only of the “job we have to do” right here in Baghdad are not serving the country well.
As for those who say things like “on average, insurgencies last about ten years,” to them one can only reply: what would you think of someone who self-assuredly proclaimed that “on average, American wars last an average of 2.1 years” or “on average, wars around the world sinc 1500
have lasted about 13.16 years” or “on average, civil wars last about 3.7 years.”
You would see right away how vacuous and jejune are such remarks. But for some reason, those “counterinsurgency experts” who make such statements, and then as well think they are little-lawrence-of-arabias withtheir knowledge of the “Sunni tribes” and their ability to really get to
know those sheikhs because they are aware of how to sit, and which hand to use, and what formula to utter, and how to listen patiently as the local Arab, who knows exactly how to manipulate the American army officer who is under the impression that it is he, the American, who is doing the manipulating, presents his wish-list for still more money, still more of those nice advanced American weapons and, oh yes, some more raids by American soldiers on that particular sheikh’s particular enemies, whether or not they belong to Al Qaeda, which is not, pace Patraeus and Bush, the only problem for there are a dozen different, mutually hostile, constantly shifting in their allegiances groups in Iraq, but all of them, in the end, consist of Muslims, and therefore none of them, in end, can conceivably be won over, not their hearts, and not their minds, to be real as opposed to temporary and feigned, friends of American Infidels.
Hugh Fitzgerald of Robert Spencer’s JihadWatch
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Doesn’t the necessity of settling the Iran issue before Bush’s term expires push Iraq onto the back burner? I thought the greatest threat in Iraq was Iran, and Al-Qaeda less so.
In other words, isn’t the Iraq situation about to change dramatically?
JiangxiDad on September 16, 2007 at 6:15 PM
Fitzgerald: Six years
Fitzgerald: Victory Stands Shining Before Us
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 6:21 PM
Being the party of defeat has put the Dems into long-term decline since Watregate, so pardon me if I don’t buy that the GOP should follow that path.
Karl on September 16, 2007 at 6:23 PM
To Bryan’s excellent analysis I would only add that the hard-core Left represents what all too many “mainstream” Democrats really feel but are too ashamed to admit. If these “moderate” Democrats were actually pro-American, for what possible reason would they still vote Democrat or in any way wish to be affiliated with that party? As we’ve seen with the Truthers, the so-called extremes on the Left really aren’t that far from what is the Democrats’ core. Since the party itself is built upon irrational arguments, economic ignorance and appeals to base emotions like envy and resentment, it can only attract people willing to be led astray. It would be comforting to think that most Americans don’t want to see the chaotic world Bryan describes round the corner (should the Left win), but the latest few elections have shown little room for optimism (especially the 2004 results, where defeat and treason lost by only the knife’s edge result in Ohio, in wartime). Finding a cure for liberalism is as important as defeating Islamism, in fact, the latter depends on the former.
Halley on September 16, 2007 at 6:29 PM
Prognostications about the future from the same people who said, “We’ll be out of Iraq in 6 months.”
Can you point out who these people are?
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 6:10 PM
* Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
* March 4, Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a breakfast with reporters: “What you’d like to do is have it be a short, short conflict. . . . Iraq is much weaker than they were back in the ’90s,” when its forces were routed from Kuwait.
* March 11, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars: “The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator.”
* March 16, Vice President Cheney, on NBC’s Meet the Press: “I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months.” He predicted that regular Iraqi soldiers would not “put up such a struggle” and that even “significant elements of the Republican Guard . . . are likely to step aside.”
None of that was qualified by any of them saying, “But we just mean the initial invasion, not the quagmire to follow.
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 6:29 PM
Bryan, Michelle, and all the “Eagles” that showed up and stood up, thank you! It’s a shame you won’t get the coverage in the MSM you deserve. I thank God that there are outlets, like HotAir, to get the word out. The MSM doesn’t have the monopoly it once had!
You are so right about the consequences of leaving Iraq to al-Qaeda and Iran. In the words of Christine’s Dad (Happy Slip :-) “Disasterrrrrr.” Iran is working hard to take over the Middle East. If we bug out we will be handing it to them. We may still need to deal with Iran before leaving Iraq that may bring higher oil prices and other problems, but if we do, it’ll be to prevent even bigger problems. We have to be strong and stay in the fight. If we show weakness (we’ve already shown too much in my estimation), Iran and other bullies will become more emboldened. If we snuff out al-Qaeda in Iraq, it will be an embarrassment to them. WE ARE WINNING! Losing is simply is not an option if our world, and our country, are to have a shot at a bright future. Better watch out Iran and Syria….
Ordinary1 on September 16, 2007 at 6:31 PM
A painless cure doesn’t seem in the cards. Think gangrene.
JiangxiDad on September 16, 2007 at 6:33 PM
Dwight D. Eisenhower saw the threat and went after it, that’s what.
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0857928.html
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=367&invol=389
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=9999
Does the threat of communism at that time sound similar to any other threats today?
Speakup on September 16, 2007 at 6:55 PM
Okay, okay, so there was at least one exciting game, and you probably just made Bryan feel bad that he missed it (him bein’ from the south and all). I was watching the USC/Nebraska game. The Cornhuskers weren’t really in the game after the first quarter. It was a snoozer. Being a Trojan hater, I had to console myself with the fact that O.J. has been arrested (again).
Of course, the most interesting thing about yesterday’s football games wasn’t even in the victory column. It was the fact that Notre Dame has started its season 0-3 — soundly thumped by a crummy Wolverine team (at least, by Michigan standards). AllahPundit needs to start a new traffic baiting religious thread to discuss this. Something along the lines of “Why doesn’t touchdown Jesus care about football anymore?”
My collie says:
Stupid dog. What does he know?
CyberCipher on September 16, 2007 at 6:57 PM
Al qaeda has already “won” the war. We are doing exactly what they want us to do: destabilize the region so they can recruit more people to their side, and to overextend ourselves so our economy, military, and will are weakened. The sectarian violence we are in the middle of is doing their job for them. Their strategy covers generations; ours only the next election cycle. Look at what is happening: Bush is going to draw down troop levels just in time for the November elections. Iran sees that we are weak and so is emboldened.
I don’t know what will happen when we leave. Neither do you. All I know is American soldiers will stop dying. Isn’t that what we all want?
B26354 on September 16, 2007 at 6:59 PM
Bryan, Michelle, and all the others who showed up, thank you.
Now I’m going to say something that many of you won’t like very much.
If my son dies in Iraq fighting this just war then my grandson, who is now 16, will pick up his rifle and continue his work. Will I make him. Nope. I just know that that is what he would do.
This fight will require sacrifice. Today that means 4-7 a day. Four to seven families torn apart. If we leave now and abandon the Iraqi people, then American families can expect that sacrifice to to to 50 or 100 a day……or more.
You who want to leave innocent people, and fighting allies on the battlefield to be slaughtered, just so you don’t have to offer up a sacrifice make me sick(and believe me that is the nice way to say what I am trying to say about your sorry butts).
I don’t want to get banned so I won’t rant further.
Limerick on September 16, 2007 at 7:01 PM
Exactly! You make the point that is was over in less than 6 months, unless you think the WWII is still a war (troops in Germany) and Korea is still a conflict (troops in South Korea). Because people do not qualify their statements does not give others license of interpretation. The battle in Iraq was over quickly and the WOT terror continues.
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 7:02 PM
My collie says:
CyberCipher on September 16, 2007 at 7:11 PM
Hope ya didn’t have to scrape off to many layers of skin trying to get clean after being around a bunch of filth like that .
Quickest way to solve that problem is opening a nice big 24 ounce can of all American red white and blue whoop ass.
Mojack420 on September 16, 2007 at 7:12 PM
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 7:14 PM
the WOT terror continues.
Wade on September 16, 2007 at 7:02 PM
The “war on terror” does not necessitate keeping 130,000 to 170,000 American troops tied up “nation building” in Iraq.
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 7:18 PM
If they would have tried that traitor Hanoi Jane maybe people would think words and actions have a consequence.
But on the good side OJ stole their 24/7 news coverage.
Mojack420 on September 16, 2007 at 7:18 PM
Do you suppose that it is too late to use water-cannons and attack dogs on Jane Fonda?
My collie says:
CyberCipher on September 16, 2007 at 7:19 PM
there are video clips finally up on youtube
Mojack420 on September 16, 2007 at 7:22 PM
A very well written post, Bryan!
I predict violence if they don’t get their way over Iraq. Not everyone of them, but the hard-core cadre will (as they did during Vietnam) start making and using bombs in order to terrorize the rest of us into surrendering the war.
By the way, the connection between ANSWER and the communists is not theoretical. Sherrie Gossett wrote an article in WorldNetDaily on 10/28/02, tracing the origins of the ANSWER and the other anti-war groups.
Read the article for the rest.
From the very get-go, the left has been against America in this war:
Since the Democratic Party has openly joined the hard-core left:
Potestas Democraticorum delenda est!
georgej on September 16, 2007 at 7:25 PM
Great post Bryan. One thing must be at least acknowledged, most of the people on our side work for a living. All the leftist have to do is pick up the welfare check or close the tattoo parlor for a day or two and boom, they’re at a protest. Free bus ride, meals, lawyers, you name it.
Your son is on the side of the Angels. Have Faith. God will take care of the rest.
Zorro on September 16, 2007 at 7:31 PM
I see it playing out almost exactly as you outlined, Bryan.
Indeed they do, and it energizes them.
petefrt on September 16, 2007 at 7:40 PM
I absolutely agree and don’t ever think that effort and sacrifice goes unnoticed.
Every American casualty is a terrible price to pay for the luxury we enjoy of untold freedoms and rights.
That these young men and women do so of their own choice makes that luxury, that much more valuable.
Any of us who lived through the Vietnam conflict should realize the incredible job being accomplished in avoiding that terrible price being paid by many many more than have and are.
During that time the evening news would have same day casualty lists usually at the end of the program I remember the rare day that the lists of dead would not have to scroll to see them all.
During heavy action periods the scroll would go for far far too long.
What happened in that war can’t possibly console the terrible loss suffered by military families at any time, it’s just unimaginable; even more so is, it has been, and could be, many times more terrible, and will be again if we quit.
Speakup on September 16, 2007 at 8:07 PM
Brian
Will you please go over what you just said here in your later half to Allah. Some things are just more important than politics.
War is a winner take all game. You either win or are defeated.
Its not about how soon we can go home, or when can we draw down troops, the only question is what is needed for victory. Then whatever that is make it happen.
We can fight this GWOT today with heart felt but historically minor losses or we can kick this can to our children or grandchildren to fight with losses and sacrifices that will make WW2 look like a cake walk. Think more like the Roman days.
C-Low on September 16, 2007 at 8:09 PM
For a while now I have been making a feeble and non-productive effort to understand the folks that I personally know who are rabidly anti-war. Can’t find any consensus except one(and even that does n’t apply to all) The consistent ones I know(and these are admittedly few)are those with sons or grandsons who would be of draft age and elegibility IF the draft existed. They seem to think this is a possibility. The rest are a motley group of retro hippies seeking to re-create the past,people who are just “against war”, those who blindly follow the lead of some one who directs their activities, some who just want to belong to a group(any group)and the most astounding of all, some want to be able to tell their kids they were part of a “movement”..ie:arrested etc. Some of these people I have known a while and they are decent people in every other respect….they just flatly, totally and completely refuse to listen to any side or argument that might justify the war. Long post, with only me interested???LOL
jeanie on September 16, 2007 at 8:27 PM
Very good analysis.
What about disturbances here? What if we get a communist, Hillary Clinton, in the presidency? And an un American Senate and House of Reps? What if we get back to an economy like that of the glorious Carter years? You know? When we had double digit inflation and unemployment … The Misery Index. What if the Jackass generation suddenly finds themselves in direct competition with 20 million new citizens from south of the border in obtaining jobs at Taco Bell or MacDonalds to pay for thier X Box and cell phone? What if these people along with the socialistic new citizens, vote for a radically, or should I say more radical, redistribution of wealth thereby killing off, if not literally then at least financially, our strongest asset – the middle class.
We’ve got a lot a troubles brewing abroad but we’ve also got some major issues that are going to arise internally as well.
BowHuntingTexas on September 16, 2007 at 8:51 PM
Yours is the nightmare scenario, the perfect storm for USA. I agree with another observer that odds today are about 80% it will happen.
petefrt on September 16, 2007 at 8:58 PM
Coming in late to the site tonight, I just thought I’d add how noisy the anti-war crowd is, and they’re getting noisier. It’s all drums, shouting, screaming, tuneless braying. With the Troofers it’s yelling, yelling, yelling. Oh, and yelling.
It’s all tantrums. That’s all they have. In the case of the anti-war/Impeach-the-Bastiches crowd, they have well-funded tantrums.
Thanks, Bryan, for that astute analysis.
Gottafang on September 16, 2007 at 9:02 PM
Bryan, thank you for this post. You were looking at the bigger picture, and some of the common-taters here were getting caught up in the minor details.
Big picture: Tug Of War. Constant traction. Most of the rest of the world (and the hard-line anti-war thugs you mention) are trying to pull us into Hell, or Chaos. On our end, we are trying to pull the world back from the brink, back to stability. I wish us well. Tug of War. Militant anti War thugs. Contrary by nature. I wish us well.
Doug on September 16, 2007 at 9:03 PM
I saw some of the coverage of GOE III on C-Span this afternoon. Funny how these voices aren’t heard with the same coverage that the shrill hate-filled left’s voices are broadcast.
highhopes on September 16, 2007 at 9:05 PM
Because, once a long time ago, before Carter, there were Democrats that were honorable. And we refuse to abandon the principles of the party from the days of Truman and Roosevelt and JFK (although he’s anathema to some Reps too). We don’t support Silky (I’m with Rudy so far myself), but we support the Blue Dogs, and you should thank your lucky stars for them.
And really, who do you have to blame for the Democrats taking back Congress? Their great campaign managers? No, it’s the beltway Republicans, who dropped the ball when they were running all the plays. So really, don’t demonize the centrist Dems, because ultimately we’re on your side (at least when it comes to the war).
I hope I’m not being too harsh, it’s just tiring being lumped in with Ariana Huffington.
SouthernDem on September 16, 2007 at 9:22 PM
Your completely correct. Democrats and Republicans might have been at each others throats for differences in ideology but the good of the country always came first and their allegiance was never in doubt.
To my mind forty or so years ago some Democrats cut left and became liberals, they then spawned the ideology of hatred for America we see today and they’re influence has brought a great deal which is very bad for this nation.
Speakup on September 16, 2007 at 9:52 PM
Been there…Done that…..Shan of Iran
Legions on September 16, 2007 at 10:04 PM
War is a winner take all game. You either win or are defeated.
If your enemy wins the war, you are defeated.
- Sun Tzu’s nephew
In the practical art of war, you must be prepared to fight at any time in the future. In the impractical art of war, you should have been prepared quite some time ago, and it’s probably already too late. You’re screwed.
- Sun Tzu’s nephew
Its not about how soon we can go home, or when can we draw down troops, the only question is what is needed for victory. Then whatever that is make it happen.
What does this envisioned victory in Iraq look like? Like Bush’s “democracy that respects the rights of their people, uphold the rule of law … …”? How many tours would the same troops have to do in Iraq before something so un-islamic as that would happen? 5 tours? 10 tours? 15 tours? How many guys are going to join the Army if they think that they are going to spend half the next 20 years in Iraq? Time itself may come to an end before Iraq becomes a “democracy that respects the rights of their people, uphold the rule of law … …”. Lions and wolfs will lay down together before Shiites and Sunnis will do that.
C-Low on September 16, 2007 at 8:09 PM
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Apparently, MB4, you never studied history. Perhaps you should take a remedial course (hint: go to a PRIVATE school for best results).
When you are ready to graduate, try answering the following:
1. How long were we in Germany, and how many troops were stationed there 5 years after the end of WW2? How many were there 10, 20, and 30 years after the end of WW2? Who won WW2?
2. 1. How long were we in Japan, and how many troops were stationed there 5 years after the end of WW2? How many were there 10, 20, and 30 years after the end of WW2? Who won WW2?
When you get these questions right, you can move on to study more complicated subjects without sounding like a kid who thinks war is a video game which can be finished in an afternoon.
landlines on September 16, 2007 at 10:28 PM
Some may ask what these baffoons have. The answer. A vote.
Add 20 million from south of the border with their socialistic inclinations after a Hillary admin grants them citizenship and …
BowHuntingTexas on September 16, 2007 at 10:58 PM
Apparently, MB4, you never studied history. Perhaps you should take a remedial course (hint: go to a PRIVATE school for best results).
There are those who say that when someone starts with the ad hominum attacks, he must be losing the debate. Generally speaking I agree with that.
When you are ready to graduate, try answering the following:
1. How long were we in Germany, and how many troops were stationed there 5 years after the end of WW2? How many were there 10, 20, and 30 years after the end of WW2? Who won WW2?
We? I was never there. Maybe you were. My dad was there and he came home in 1945. The number of troops that were there 4 and a half years after the overthrow of Hitler was minuscule in comparisons to the number of troops that were there in 1944-1945. As I don’t like to state the obvious I will say that some would say that the Soviets won.
2.
1.How long were we in Japan, and how many troops were stationed there 5 years after the end of WW2? How many were there 10, 20, and 30 years after the end of WW2? Who won WW2?We? I was never there. Maybe you were. About 7 uncles were in the pacific. They came home in 1945. The number of troops that were there 4 and a half years after the overthrow of the Japanese goverment was minuscule in comparisons to the number of troops that were there in 1944-1945. As I don’t like to state the obvious I will say that some would say that Honda and Toyota also won.
When you get these questions right, you can move on to study more complicated subjects without sounding like a kid who thinks war is a video game which can be finished in
an afternoonfour and a half years with no end in sightWhen you can come up with rational arguments for so many American troops staying in Iraq for so long with no end in sight and not some highly illogical dysfunctional comparison between Iraq and Germany/Japan, just maybe, although probably not, you can move on to armchair warrior about more complicated subjects without sounding like a kid who thinks
warTHIS COUNTER PRODUCTIVE IRAQI QUAGMIRE is a video game which can be finished by someone else going there over and over and over again for God only knows how long with SO LITTLE advantage to America to show for it.landlines on September 16, 2007 at 10:28 PM
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 11:09 PM
Ugh.
Nonfactor on September 16, 2007 at 11:31 PM
If you weren’t out there marching to Brian Becker’s tune, I wasn’t talking about you.
Bryan on September 16, 2007 at 11:34 PM
MB4, America has been in Germany since 1945. They’ve a military presence there since the fall of Nazi Germany. Ditto for South Korea, except it’s been since the Korean War.
What happened when America left Vietnam? Massacre. What would have happened if America left Germany in 1948? The Russians would have taken over the whole place and that’s right – massacre.
Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps America should get the heck out and let “nature” take its course. Another warlord taking over the “government” of Iraq, who is just as bad, if not worse, than Saddam. Or Iran coming in and threatening everyone around there. You think it’s bad now? If America and the coalition leaves, it’ll get worse.
Perhaps it’s conjecture. Perhaps I’m too pessimistic. Perhaps if America leaves everywhere and Pres. Bush is no longer in charge, the whole world will get together and sing “Kum-Bye-Ya”, but I really doubt it.
mjk on September 16, 2007 at 11:40 PM
landlines,
For extra-credit we can come up with the number of combat casualties we suffered in Germany and Japan after V-J day or V-E day. Also, did either Germany or Japan have the level of sectarian conflict that we see in Iraq?
If you read through the work that the U.S. State department contributed to the Marshall plan, notably George Kennan, it highlights that today our military is courageously trying to dig us out of a problem that was created by President Bush’s difficulty in riding herd over his State Department and Defense Department.
Probably putting Zalmay Khalilzad in place instead of Paul Bremmer would have helped, but by then things were already in tough shape.
Also, I usually find MB4’s comments informative and reflective of being well-read.
dedalus on September 16, 2007 at 11:43 PM
Perhaps it’s conjecture. Perhaps I’m too pessimistic. Perhaps if America leaves everywhere and Pres. Bush is no longer in charge, the whole world will get together and sing “Kum-Bye-Ya”, but I really doubt it.
mjk on September 16, 2007 at 11:40 PM
Kum-Bye-ya ??? I rather doubt it too, but at least not whistling past the graveyard would be an improvement.
BTW, I have never advocated leaving everywhere. I do not even advocate leaving Iraq completely as I think that we should keep a few tens of thousand of troops in Kurdistan, the one bright spot in this tarbaby. Possibly even a base or two in the rest of Iraq, depending.
MB4 on September 16, 2007 at 11:53 PM
Hey Bryan and Michelle,
Thanks for your presence at the Gathering of Eagles. It’s truly a newish thing and certain to pick up steam in times to come, probably with much due to the help and publicity of the HA team. Please: Keep Up the Good Work.
I recognize your pessimism, Bryan. I used to feel the same way when I attended college, a state university and town in N. Cal. rated very highly by the Utne Reader. Need I say more? Humboldt State University in Arcata, to be exact. Being surrounded by those toxic attitudes, rabid anti-Americanism, just bleeds confidence, and there is no doubt about it. I remember this guy in chem lab who had made his own “bullet riddled” t-shirt, even sewing in red squares of cloth under the holes and adding more blood with a red marking pen, upon which was scrawled “US OUT OF EL SALVADOR.” I don’t think he wore it every day, because sometimes he broke up the monotany with a Che Guevarra shirt. Seriously, no joke.
Doesn’t El Salvador have troops in Iraq now? My God, we’re good! No wonder the moonbats are going batpoop crazy.
I, too, am becoming concerned, even alarmed, at the stances of Russia and China. The days of Boris Yeltsin and Deng Xiaoping seem like forever ago. However, they seem to me like they have more ambition than actual power still.
Por ejemplo:
Putin just made a national holiday begging people to have more babies. And those rickety bombers that pootypoot is sending out… How many are broken down back at the base for every one he can send up? Victor also thought poisoning his critic, Litvinenko, in London with plutonium whatnot-7 was a smooth move? Is Pathetic a river in Russia?
China can’t make simple plastic toys or dog food or drugs that don’t poison kids and pets. Whether ignorant or not, does that make a difference? And these Olympics coming up in Beijing, what can one say? Comedy aplenty. Does the Pathetic River flow from Russia through China, too?
But still, they have resources, potential and ambitions. Feelings of dark concern are valid.
MB4 and that other guy with the letters-and-numbers name: Man, do you guys really want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
Contrary to such popular belief, the Middle East had many places and faces that were very cosmopolitan and secular as recently as the 60s, even the 70s and 80s. The peoples of Iraq, Iran, Egypt and especially Lebanon were full of friendly, modern and somewhat secular world citizens. The region was not rife with, as Hamid Karzai put it, this “godless” Islamism. IMHO, I trace all this BS to what happened in the 1972 Munich Olympics, when the Palestinian terrorists, ooooooooooooohhh Black September it was called, kidnapped and killed some Israeli athletes. This fight is decades old, not centuries, and it is fuelled and/or oxygenated by our beloved creature: ABCNBCCBSTimeNewsweekCNNNYTimesLATimesWAPOCNN.
This is not a hopeless fight. It’s a good fight, a just fight. And like the Good Book says: Fight the good fight… Mourn our grievous losses, we must, but many of our fallen would tell us: Enough now, off your knees, pick up where I left off and win this victory.
silverfox on September 17, 2007 at 4:26 AM
MB4 and that other guy with the letters-and-numbers name: Man, do you guys really want to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory?
silverfox on September 17, 2007 at 4:26 AM
You are just being silly now foxy. I could not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in Iraq on my most powerful day, even if I wanted to. I’m not Clark Kent.
Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is what Bush did when he decided to stay in Iraq to “nation build” that “shining example” for the rest of the Muslim world.
MB4 on September 17, 2007 at 4:46 AM
I was there in DC on Saturday. The moonbats are nothing more than people whose emotional growth was arrested in their adolescent stage. The immaturity of their shock speech and infantile protest costumes and songs show them for the perpetually moronic children they are.
Theseus on September 17, 2007 at 9:16 AM
Well written and clear enough for the blind to hear. This is the result of their aging Hippie parents abandoning their illegitimate children or abortion rethought. This abandonment resulted from their parents pursuit of the all mighty dollar that they realized is essential to their continued pursuit of the happiness they did not find in the chemicals or rhetoric of the 60’s because they were looking in all of the wrong places.
MSGTAS on September 17, 2007 at 9:24 AM
On the one hand we have well-reasoned approaches designed to effectively solve complex problems:
Old: Military defeat, followed by a restructuring and rebuilding of the German and Japanese governments in order to replace dangerous repressive regimes with more democratic governments less likely to wage war on the rest of the world. Results: after a long, hard effort, successful Germany and Japan are now allies whose populations are very productive, much better off than before, and no longer a threat to others.
New: In response to attacks and the continuing world-wide threat from a stateless enemy, the US declares that their protectors will be held responsible, and then proceeds to follow through by attacking enemy suppliers and strongholds, and replacing the dangerous repressive regimes with more democratic governments less likely to wage war on the rest of the world. Results: after a very short effort, largely successful in reducing the threat to the US and Isreal, and reducing danger from/to other countries in the Middle East. Major progress in rebuilding has already forced the formerly hard-to-locate enemy into the open in Iraq, where its concentrated forces can be identified and defeated militarily.
On the other hand, we have immature, unreasoned responses to complex problems which present no alternative solutions at all:
It’s hard, let’s quit, let’s bang a drum….oh look, a squirrel!
landlines on September 17, 2007 at 11:16 AM
Sadly, I agree with MB4. While we shouldn’t leave, and if the Dems have their way, they will pull out of the whole War on Terror effort and it will be the 1990s all over again. But George “Stubborn as a mule” Bush won’t change his strategy. He’s not capable of listening to anyone. And if you wonder why Al Qaeda gained a foothold in Iraq, it’s because of this war. They were not there before. There was no proof of it, except what the Bush administration made up to go to war.
mram on September 17, 2007 at 12:25 PM
You can tell a lot about someone by who their friends and enemies are. Standing with the Eagles against the hippies, commies, jihadis, and assorted moonbats, I was in good company.
Let me just say, after being downwind of the moonbats, I found myself needing three things: a shower, new sinuses, and that detox stuff in case I get drug tested in the future.
ticticboom on September 17, 2007 at 12:32 PM
Here’s a win-win situation for this long and winding war: Wall off the Sadr City slum, throw all the Sunnis and Shias together and let them tear each other apart like Michael Vick’s dogs. And throw in the Gramscian hos (whores, but in gangsta talk) like red meat given to lions. That might give the world a little peace for a while. And we can focus on Ahmadinutjob and his puppet handlers, the Ayatollahs.
mram on September 17, 2007 at 12:43 PM
Excellent analysis Bryan.
infidel4life on September 17, 2007 at 1:02 PM
Thank you Bryan and Michelle for being there. Thanks to all the Vets and families of the fallen who went to face the onsluaght of viciousness.
Having read thru all of the comments, I think it can be said that this is the best site for spirited debate. While I don’t agree with all, I’m still baffled by the “cut and run” crowd. You all seem to just dismiss any idea that if we left there wouldn’t be any consequences.
We will see something worse than we see now I’m afraid.
JohnnyD on September 17, 2007 at 6:20 PM
and to think…. my grandparents had a Victory garden when they were my age. It is this thought which inspires me to wish for success for our troops. To wish for failure and defeat was alien to my grandparents, but it’s all the Left seems to aspire to these days. Strange.
stevezilla on September 17, 2007 at 10:42 PM
You all seem to just dismiss any idea that if we left there wouldn’t be any consequences.
We will see something worse than we see now I’m afraid.
JohnnyD on September 17, 2007 at 6:20 PM
All actions have consequences. Bush’s “nation building” in Iraq is having a benefit/cost ratio that is very deeply in the red.
One must be as a lion to frighten off wolves, but as a fox to recognize traps.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
The wise man does sooner what the fool does later.
- Niccolo Machiavelli
MB4 on September 18, 2007 at 3:23 AM
Admit it, MB4,
You still have a Kerry/Edwards 04 sticker on the back of your Volvo.
It’s so boring to quote Macho Machiavelli. So how about a jealous, probably drunk, long forgotten German general:
God is on the side of children, drunks and the United States of America.
And it’s always cool to quote Casablanca (1942):
[about Rick]
Major Strasser: You give him credit for too much cleverness. My impression was that he’s just another blundering American.
Captain Renault: We musn’t underestimate American blundering. I was with them when they blundered into Berlin in 1918.
And a pro pos to you:
Rick: Don’t you sometimes wonder if it’s worth all this? I mean what you’re fighting for.
Victor Laszlo: You might as well question why we breathe. If we stop breathing, we’ll die. If we stop fighting our enemies, the world will die.
Rick: Well, what of it? It’ll be out of its misery.
Victor Laszlo: You know how you sound, Mr. Blaine? Like a man who’s trying to convince himself of something he doesn’t believe in his heart.
silverfox on September 18, 2007 at 4:49 AM
And what is the “benefit/cost ratio” of pulling out MB4? Surely our troops would be “safe”. But for how long? Don’t you think that at some point we would have to do it all again? And as for “nation building”, so it would have been better to just leave once Saddam was gone?
Leaving at this point can not be an option until Iraq can do for itself what we are doing. Leaving now would only show weakness, as Bryan pointed out. It would embolden not just the jihadist but many who oppose us. These are the consequences I spoke of.
Futhermore, allowing the anti-american/war radicals any glimmer of winning would also give rise to something more terrible, IMHO than what we have today.
JohnnyD on September 18, 2007 at 5:02 AM
MB4 et al: since you seem to be stuck in the 60’s, here’s a sixties slogan for you:
“Lead, Follow, or Get Out of the Way”
(another way of saying that criticism without a constructive alternative is just immature whining)
landlines on September 18, 2007 at 11:41 AM
I was in DC last week. What really scared me about the anti-war protestors is their age. They are so young (and naive (or stupid)). I felt like these kids really didn’t have a clue about what makes this country great. I’m sad and scared at the same time for our future.
Aggie85 on September 18, 2007 at 2:40 PM
While not intended to be harsh or unsympathetic or ungrateful to our fine soldiers, sailors, marines and airmen, Professor Blather is correct.
How long have we been in Iraq (this time)? Since March 2003, and it’s now September 2007. 4 years and 6 months. And how many U.S. war deaths have there been? As of Sept. 16, 2007, the figure is 3,782. Source:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1107AP_Iraq_US_Deaths.html
For comparison purposes, do you even realize, B26354, how many U.S. combat deaths happened in the Korean War? Or are you like “most Americans” and you really don’t know jack-sh!t about history.
The Korean War lasted for three years, and the U.S. had approx. 33,00 combat deaths. Thirty-three THOUSAND in THREE YEARS. Source:
http://www.va.gov/oaa/pocketcard/korea_summary.asp
The bottom line is you don’t know jack-sh!t about American history, and the sacrifices that have been made before. And sadly, there’s a large chunk of the American populace who are also ignorant of American history and what sacrifice really is.
eanax on September 18, 2007 at 5:00 PM
33,000 combat deaths in Korean, that is.
eanax on September 18, 2007 at 5:01 PM
Hey, way to regurgitate the “Big Lie”. Bravo. You’ve done your deed for the day, automaton.
Al Qaeda was operating in Iraq BEFORE we went in there. Zarqawi was operating at Ansar al Islam out of Northeastern Iraq. Zarqawi also fled to Iraq after being chased from Afghanistan in the Fall of 2001.
Besides, the bigger point is Saddam was one of the most powerful terrorists himself – certainly in the Middle East if not the world. He funded terrorist organizations, and he gave safe harbor to world-reknown terrorists like Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas. He also operated terrorist training camps — the most well-known is Salman Pak located south of Baghdad.
Saddam went after Abu Nidal in the summer of 2002 because he didn’t want to be seen as harboring terrorists (but Saddam was doing exactly that). Abu Nidal, as reported by Iraqi officials, killed himself when Saddam’s secret police showed up to arrest him.
The U.S. captured Abu Abbas (April 2003) in Iraq shortly after we went in to depose Saddam.
Do you think either Nidal or Abbas went to Iraq for some vacation time? Isn’t it odd that two of the world’s most notorious terrorists were living in Iraq?
Iraq was a terrorist state under Saddam Hussein. It funded terrorism, it harbored terrorists, and it engaged and facilitated terrorist operations. And that’s the bottom line…
eanax on September 18, 2007 at 5:25 PM
Constructive alternatives?
How about a foreign policy that looks ahead decades, not just to the next election.
How about refusing to install and support dictators and tyrants just because they are on our side.
How about refusing to support nascent terrorist groups like Al Qaeda just because they oppose our enemy.
How about giving the Iraqis self-determination by leaving them alone.
B26354 on September 18, 2007 at 5:31 PM
Comment pages: