it points out the logical inconsistency of asking students to accept their teachers as knowledgeable and authoritative on the subjects we deem important to life

There’s a difference between a student taking the knowledge learned via books and teacher and learning it and possibly hearing an opinion of a teacher and adopting it as their own. Kids in high school aren’t mindless drones; I’m always amused when I hear older people talk about fifteen year olds like easily swayed saints considering what fifteen year olds are like nowadays.

This assumes they know the reason they believe the way they do, and fails to recognize a pattern of subtle indoctrination that is not occurring by simply one teacher, but by an entire system of teachers who share an ideology.

DrMagnolias on September 11, 2007 at 3:55 PM

So you’re claiming that high school teachers indoctrinate their students in a way that the students are ignorant of so that when questioned about their beliefs they won’t be able to say where they got their opinions from? Seriously? Where are these teachers because in my life I’ve never seen one, and in learning from my parents they’ve never seen one either.

That isn’t the logical extension at all. Another word for it would be slippery slope. What I’m talking about is the political opinions of students and how teachers don’t mold them to fit their own.

This is not at all a slippery slope argument. Rather, it points out the logical inconsistency of asking students to accept their teachers as knowledgeable and authoritative on the subjects we deem important to life, while also expecting them to discern what is fact and what is opinion from these same authorities.

Ask anyone why the think about political issues a certain way and I can guarantee you they won’t say “my tenth grade geometry teacher.”

This assumes they know the reason they believe the way they do, and fails to recognize a pattern of subtle indoctrination that is not occurring by simply one teacher, but by an entire system of teachers who share an ideology.

Why is this happening? Leftist ideology, specifically the combined clout of laziness on the part of teachers (unionists, gov’t employees, no competitive threat to their job security, tenure), deemphasis on formal education (we’ve gone from too formal to too much feeling, its unbalanced and stubborness and inertia on the part of leftist dominated education thinktanks aren’t helping), too much relativism and postmodernist squishiness in the social sciences and I believe heterogenous teaching philosophy has been an utter failure (yes, I’ve read some of the studies, no I don’t buy that it works).

You’ve identified a problem that’s prevalent in certain schools, but assigned a false answer. My dad was a principle at two schools in Compton/Long Beach, he ran things very strictly, he was also a Democrat, I’m sure most all the teachers at the school were Democrats as well, but this fact didn’t turn the school into a cesspool of disobedience or laziness. Are certain teachers lazy in their teachings? Yes. Are certain students disobedient in their learning? Yes, but this isn’t due to one or the others political bent.

I remember my Economics teacher in High School was a staunch Catholic and Republican. He agreed with many of the “liberal” teachers, some we wouldn’t have suspected as being liberals. His class wasn’t any more orderly than the others.

Every person has things they are capable of and incapable of, and they should be taught so that they can maximize their individual output, I don’t believe heterogenous teaching can do it.

Bad Candy on September 11, 2007 at 12:39 AM

Aristotle’s calling. It sounds like you’re just not a fan of the system, not just teachers. Your idea may have worked a couple thousand years ago when every child could be assigned a personal tutor to maximize his “virtues” and “faculties,” but nowadays it’s just not realistic.

Bad Candy on September 11, 2007 at 12:55 AM

You can create a school system where students aren’t treated equally and they take certain tests to get into certain classes to maximize their faculties, but there isn’t a school district I can think of where students aren’t allowed to skip grades, take advanced classes, or take courses at junior colleges.

fred5678 on September 11, 2007 at 1:03 AM

You guys are all talking about a school system that isn’t plausible. What you’re describing sounds exactly like the ancient Grecian scholars who tutor only the rich. When students outnumber teachers by great margins this isn’t realistic.

The logical extension of this view is that teachers don’t have a great deal of influence over students, period. If this is so, why are students in school?

DrMagnolias on September 11, 2007 at 7:20 AM

That isn’t the logical extension at all. Another word for it would be slippery slope. What I’m talking about is the political opinions of students and how teachers don’t mold them to fit their own. Ask anyone why the think about political issues a certain way and I can guarantee you they won’t say “my tenth grade geometry teacher.”

I can’t watch Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy anymore. Mos Def played Ford Prefect. His spewing just turned me off to one of the funniest movies I own.

The Boss was brilliant as always.

Mooseman

Michelle is really the only relevant aspect of The Factor anymore.

infidel4life on September 10, 2007 at 10:33 PM

Amen! infidel4life

The last couple of times Michelle has been on the O’R show she has looked a little subdued to me. Has anyone else gotten that impression? I hope she is not letting Jeraldodo
get to her with his very unprofessional conduct. O’Reilly doesn’t have the guts to denounce those ’spittin’ remarks publicly. So in my mind that makes O’Reilly as guilty as Jeraldodo.

Rosie is an ignoramus pimple.

John Cougar couldn’t find a Bible with Jack, Diane, and Elaine Erwin all helping his sorry @$$.

And as for that simple minded illiterate “rap” “artist”, well…he is a train wreck that can’t speak enough English to be understood no how.;)

But the larger problem is that IGNORANT TELEVISION ZOMBIE AMERICANS DO believe them.

That is where WE come in. Neighbors and friends must SPREAD THE WORD of the new media and all its information and WAKE UP A FRIEND to life in the REAL WORLD.

REACH ONE. TEACH ONE.

I mean, am I understanding that clearly?

So the brown women and girls being tortured, mutilated, raped, and killed in Iraq at the hands of fringe whack job fascists is OK?

Got it, Rosie.

A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
Today highlighting 9/11 posts, along with other must read info from around the net….

But we should be asking of the Times, not MoveOn.org: Do you hate your country that much? Have you no shame?…

The left again does not fully understand basic grammar, how to parody a name, or what the face of the people look like.

Move On should Move On.

He needs to take a chill pill, relax, and reflect.

Also, let’s fast forward a bit. Speaker Pelosi is safe from any challenge from Cindy because her removal from the floor yesterday will brand her with a felony conviction making her ineligible to run for public office.

But, then again, when you are a Democrat, and this is your party, and you have to go on TV to represent it – I suppose you aren’t given much of a choice. It is either embrace it honestly, or deny it dishonestly.
nailinmyeye on September 10, 2007 at 11:21 PM

Bull. How can anyone embrace either side completely honestly these days? You could, as in many Blue Dogs situation, disown it and become a centrist (of course, this makes us Bush Dogs in the Left’s eyes). That’s the only honest thing to do for us disenfranchised (former) Dems.

You do seem to live in the bubble where teachers constantly preach political opinions to their students or attempt to indoctrinate them into a certain world view. This just doesn’t happen, or at least not on the hyperbolic stage that you seem to indicate.

As a college professor, I see plenty of evidence that it does. I’m at a university with relatively high standards for admission, and I can’t tell you how many grossly uneducated students I have–students who cannot construct a grammatically sound sentence or coherent paragraph, who know almost nothing of history or science, and who fail to see how any of these things might be relevant to them–who are political experts and know exactly how everything ought to be. They have to be taught basic reasoning skills, and that feeeeeeelings are not the basis of sound decisions, nor are they effective tools of persuasion to those of us not given to histrionics.

People form their own political opinions, teachers in high school are probably the least influential group affecting the opinions of students.

The logical extension of this view is that teachers don’t have a great deal of influence over students, period. If this is so, why are students in school? Why would we think they would learn anything? Or do we think students have such effective analytical skills that they deftly discern fact from opinion, absorbing the former and discarding the latter? How is a parent to instruct their children to learn from a teacher, but that only some of what the teacher says is true? And how, when I am trying to correct years of propagandizing on the part of their revered teachers, am I to say, “I am sure your high school history teacher was a very nice man, but exactly how would he know that in 20 years we would find out who really shot Kennedy?” Where does one even begin to deconstruct that mess?

I should note, I haven’t actually taught. Considered it, and decided jumping into a train about to wreck is a dumb idea.

Bad Candy on September 11, 2007 at 1:07 AM

It was a train wreck – 50% of time spent on class discipline. I taught science, having qualified with BS in engineering and Masters in Comp. Sci., had worked on Surveyor lunar lander, Project Corona (first spy satellite), and AA’s SABRE reservation system. Also had commercial pilot license, but did not get to teach honors course, which spent extra month on AVIATION AND SPACE SCIENCE. I snuck all that good stuff in anyway.

Note I said ONE year (9/11 gave me the impetus). I now teach instrument flying to grownups.

You do seem to live in the bubble where teachers constantly preach political opinions to their students or attempt to indoctrinate them into a certain world view. This just doesn’t happen, or at least not on the hyperbolic stage that you seem to indicate.

What? What world do you live in? My daughters have spent the last 6 years between them in one of the more respected area public high schools in Chicago, and they were both subjected to an unending stream of leftism from their teachers which had absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter. It was an outrage, and a gross violation of teaching ethics. In my world, every one of these teachers who do this to kids would lose their certificates.

People form their own political opinions, teachers in high school are probably the least influential group affecting the opinions of students.

Nonfactor on September 11, 2007 at 12:11 AM

In your humble opinion? Or are you back to just making up weird things and calling them facts? What makes you think this?

conservnut on September 11, 2007 at 12:25 AM

I’m working on my 14-year old grandson now. Having helped him with homework, I know exactly what he is being taught.

fred5678 on September 11, 2007 at 1:03 AM

I should note, I haven’t actually taught. Considered it, and decided jumping into a train about to wreck is a dumb idea.

Another biggie is the union system. We always hear that teachers get underpaid…again, bullsh*t! Good teachers get underpaid criminally, crappy teachers get overpaid on an equally criminal level. Good teachers are basically subsidizing the sh*tty ones because the crummy ones pay protection to the Unions.

Bad Candy on September 11, 2007 at 12:39 AM

Ditto. I was forced to join the union and it put a ceiling on my salary as far as I’m concerned. Oh, for a free market in education, with school choice and teacher review by merit.