I read Qur’an in the early 90’s before it was fashionable, when my multi-lingual FIL had a copy on his vast library shelves. The Oxford educated Doctor explained as much as he could to me, finishing the job a Jesuit priest had started when the Marine Barracks was bombed and I was confused back in college. Having the dots connected here, in this forum, is a useful and frightening education that is too narrowly appreciated, I am afraid.

THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU for doing this, Robert.

AND PRAISE BE TO ALLAH (literally)for allowing you too. ;)

SMOOCHES and HUGS OXOXOXXO!

Is it just my imagination, or does the Qur’an actually just ramble in and out of different subjects? There doesn’t seem to be much continuity with it.

“Allah will destroy all religions except Islam”

.
Well, great. Since allah (pissbeuponhim) does NOT exist, we can focus on the crazed moooslims now, because a made up moon god can’t do squat.

The Ummah of Muhammad is immune from error when they all agree on something, a miracle that serves to increase their honor, due to the greatness of their Prophet. …

Mr Spencer, Does this also explain one reason why there is such hostility between shiite and sunni, with regards to prophetic inheritance after Muhammed’s death?

To some degree, insofar as the opposing group is seen as holdouts to consensus. Although if the opposing group is classified as heretical, as it often is, one can establish consensus anyway.

Allah will not forgive those who leave Islam twice

Really? Jesus once told Peter to forgive wrongdoers seventy times seven times. But that is usually not taken as a literal number, but as a way of saying ‘forgive continually’. Is leaving the faith twice taken literally here? It seems to me more a way of saying, “If you waffle in and out of the faith, wavering in your commitment to Allah, well, forget it, Allah will not honor that.” How is this passage usually interpreted?

Says Ibn Kathir: “Allah states that whoever embraces the faith, reverts from it, embraces it again, reverts from it and remains on disbelief and increases in it until death, then he will never have a chance to gain accepted repentance after death. Nor will Allah forgive him, or deliver him from his plight to the path of correct guidance.”

v163:

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

Mr Spencer, are all these biblical characters considered ‘prophets’ in Islam? If Jesus was revered as a prophet, what does Islam teach about him specifically? So far, all we have learned is that he somehow escaped crucifiction. What else does Islam teach about Jesus and his teachings? For instance, would Islam revere Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount?

Yes, these are Islamic prophets. The views of Jesus’ teachings vary widely. Many Islamic spokesmen have quoted the New Testament, referencing sayings of Jesus, without getting into questions of the corruption of the Scriptures etc. Then there are many sayings of Jesus in Islamic tradition. You may be interested in checking out The Muslim Jesus: Sayings and Stories in Islamic Literature by Tarif Khalidi.

Mr Spencer, One more question. V171 is powerful. It in no uncertain terms says that Jesus is in no way the Son of Allah, and that Allah is one God. But, it also says that Jesus is Messiah. You also stated in your essay that Muhammed declared that Jesus will return to Earth someday to Islamicise the world. Does Islam currently teach that Jesus, while not God’s son, was still a Messiah figure of some kind who will return again to Earth in judgement?

There are varying explanations of Al-Masih (Messiah) in Islamic tradition. They usually have to do with the giving of Jesus some appellation or designation that is distinctive but doesn’t amount to how Christians see the Messiah. Islam’s current teachings are in line with Muhammad’s statements.

Thanks again for your effort.

HeIsSailing on September 9, 2007 at 12:33 PM

Robert, to whom does v114 refer to, and what is meant by ’secrecy’? I am having trouble putting this in any kind of context:

In most of their secret talks there is no good: But if one exhorts to a deed of charity or justice or conciliation between men, (Secrecy is permissible)…

Generally it is understood as referring to lying. This means that if it is done for a good purpose, it is allowed. Muhammad allowed for lying in war, in reconciling people, and between a husband and a wife.

Commentator Anisa Mehdi would like to propose a word that could be used instead of “jihad.”

I would like to propose a location where NPR can stick their multicultural BS.

What are your thoughts on that?

BadgerHawk on September 9, 2007 at 10:36 PM

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/004575.php

NPR: “Rethinking the Word ‘Jihad’”

All Things Considered, January 7, 2005 · “Jihad” is one of the few Arabic words used in English. It means “spiritual struggle,” but many Muslims have pointed out that “jihad” is almost always used in English in the context of terrorism, even though the actual meaning is broader. Commentator Anisa Mehdi would like to propose a word that could be used instead of “jihad.”

Sure. The actual meaning is broader. Nevertheless, jihad is the word used by those who are taking up arms against non-Muslims all over the world. But by trying to get Westerners to use a different word, Anisa Mehdi is only deflecting attention from the real source of the problem: the Islamic doctrine of jihad warfare, which enables terrorist groups to recruit members among Muslims everywhere.

You tell me, Anisa Mehdi: are these men talking about a spiritual struggle?

“Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge.” — Osama bin Laden, November 24, 2002.

“We ask Allah to make us mujahideen (holy warriors). We ask Allah to make us shaheed. Our immediate duty now is to correct our own homeland. So let us open our eyes, let us not go for jihad which is far away from our countries.” — Abu Hamza al-Masri.

“In Islam the only meaning of jihad was killing, and those who projected the concepts of Jihad Akbar and Jihad Asghar were against Islam,” — Maulana Masood Azhar.

“Jihad is actually considered a Rahma (mercy) in Islam. If there is an oppressor and there is Jihad to stop his oppression, it is a mercy on him (the oppressor).” — Hamza Yousef, November 3, 2004.

There are many more like these. Just search the archives here.

Posted by Robert at January 8, 2005 8:26 AM

On an unrelated note Robert, in one of our cultural awareness classes the instructor mentioned he thought it was a bad idea to use the term jihadi since, as all Muslims are required to perform inner and outer jihad, it could actually give legitimacy to the claims made by radicals. What are your thoughts on that?

Ezekial 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech were your clients; they exchanged slaves and bronze items for your merchandise.

Is anyone seriously suggesting that people in the Levant were trading with Moscow in the ancient past?

Here is some interesting rethinking about the prevailing ideas about M & T.

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/JR/Future/ch10_the_revived_islamic_empire.htm

(By the way, Robert Spencer gave this comment about the book I got this from: “A fascinating and provocative work. A must read for priests and pastors, students and lay-readers everywhere”

Here is an image of the book’s cover with Mr. Spencer’s quote:

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H216ANRPL._SS500_.jpg
)
Meshek and Tubal

Regarding Meshek and Tubal, here again, we find some prophecy teachers once again giving them a Russian identification. Many very well-known prophecy teachers base their opinions primarily on the fact that the Scofield Study Bible identifies these two “nations” as correlating to the modern Russian cities of Moscow and Tobolsk. The problem again, is that the basis of this interpretation comes primarily from the similar sound of the words: Meshek – Moscow, and Tubal – Tobolsk. While this may be convincing to some, the weakness of this reasoning has already been discussed above. Again, unless one can legitimately trace the roots of a particular word back to its Hebrew origin, then the argument is based on very weak evidence. It is a forcing of the puzzle piece where it doesn’t naturally fit.

Mark Hitchcock, a well-known Bible teacher accurately points out that Meschek and Tubal are mentioned in Ezekiel 27:13 as trading partners with ancient Tyre. Tyre was in what is today Lebanon. “It is highly doubtful” says Hitchcock, “that ancient Tyre was trading with people as far north as Moscow and Tobolsk.” In fact, it is questionable whether or not these areas were even very well populated in Ezekiel’s day. Hitchcock concludes that:

A closer study of these names reveals that Meschech and Tubal are the ancient Moschi/Mushki and Tubalu/Tibareni peoples who dwelled in the area around, primarily south of, the Black and Caspian Seas in Ezekiel’s day. These nations today are in the modern country of Turkey, possibly parts of southern Russia and northern Iran. 2

Meschek was located near what was known as Phrygia, in central and western Asia Minor, while Tubal was located in eastern Asia Minor. So with Meshek and Tubal, we are dealing with portions of modern Turkey. Today this region is predominantly Islamic. While modern Turkey has undergone a drastic secularization in the last century, within even just the past few years there have also been some quiet, though very strong trends toward a return to a stronger Islamic identification. 3

Ditto that, Vince. Good work-I’ve heard some of the same explanations from Walid Shoebat-who makes note that the enemy countries mentioned by name in Scripture who wage war against God and His special possession Israel are now all Muslim countries.
Good work.

Doug on September 9, 2007 at 2:14 PM

The enemy countries mentioned by name are in Ezekial 38

Wasn’t Russia supposed to be on that map?

Yeah, that map does not jive with what I remember from my old Hal Lindsay books. But since Meshech and Tubal can no longer be the Soviet Union, I guess they have been moved to.. Turkey?? And Meshech was supposed to be Moscow (false cognates if there ever was any). But then again, from what I remember, Lindsay also thought Gomer was Germany and Merchants of Tarshish was Great Britan, and her young Lions was the United States. And didn’t he also think that those who dwell securely on the coastlands was the United States? Man, it has been forever since I read that stuff, so I am really stretching my memory.

Well, I guess in the post-Cold War era, the table of nations had to get redefined, and the apocalyptic map got updated.

Google Gog and Magog.

No, I understand Gog,Magog, Ezek 38-39, etc as referenced by VinceP. I just don’t understand what it has to do with anything being discussed here. A little non-sequitor.

VinceP1974 on September 9, 2007 at 3:43 PM

Wasn’t Russia supposed to be on that map?

HeIsSailing on September 9, 2007 at 6:38 PM

Google Gog and Magog.

VinceP1974 on September 9, 2007 at 3:43 PM

I liked your first comment but.. well… you kinda lost me with this one.

What exactly is the point of these “Blogging the Qur’an” things?

I think Sun Tzu bears repeating here.

It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.

Islam is not only the enemy of the Jew and the Christian, but of civilization and progress as well. We do well to understand them.

What exactly is the point of these “Blogging the Qur’an” things?

I’d say it’s about grasping the depth of the hatred and intolerance that must constitute the mental state of any Muslim who interprets this stuff literally.

http://www.mysteriousworld.com/Content/Images/Journal/2003/Autumn/Giants/TableOfNationsMap.jpg

shows the location of most of attackers in the Ezekiel 38 Gog war against Israel.

A Prophecy Against Gog

38:1 The word of the Lord came to me: 38:2 “Son of man, turn toward1 Gog,2 of the land of Magog [Turkey],3 the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal[Turkey].4 Prophesy against him 38:3 and say: ‘This is what the sovereign Lord says: Look,5 I am against you, Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 38:4 I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and bring you out with all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them fully armed, a great company with shields of different types,6 all of them armed with swords. 38:5 Persia[Iran],7 Ethiopia[Horn of Africa], and Put8 [Libya] are with them, all of them with shields and helmets. 38:6 They are joined by9 Gomer [Northeast Turkey/Caucauses] with all its troops, and by Beth Togarmah [Syria] from the remote parts of the north with all its troops – many peoples are with you.10

Blogging the Qur’an: Sura 4, “Women,” verses 104-176

……

VinceP1974 on September 9, 2007 at 12:20 PM

Vince, thanks for your fascinating comment. You answered a lot of my questions.

***********************

The Ummah of Muhammad is immune from error when they all agree on something, a miracle that serves to increase their honor, due to the greatness of their Prophet. …

Mr Spencer, Does this also explain one reason why there is such hostility between shiite and sunni, with regards to prophetic inheritance after Muhammed’s death?

*********************

Finally! The Islamic plan of salvation! V124:

If any do deeds of righteousness,- be they male or female – and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them.

********************

v137:

Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

Robert Spencer:

Allah will not forgive those who leave Islam twice

Really? Jesus once told Peter to forgive wrongdoers seventy times seven times. But that is usually not taken as a literal number, but as a way of saying ‘forgive continually’. Is leaving the faith twice taken literally here? It seems to me more a way of saying, “If you waffle in and out of the faith, wavering in your commitment to Allah, well, forget it, Allah will not honor that.” How is this passage usually interpreted?

**************************

So far our Quran readings seem to be preoccupied with the punishment of the unbeliever. In this part of the Quran especially, every other verse seems to contain the threat of Hell or Fire or Punishment. I just find that doctrine the bane of our monotheistic religions – the doctrine of Hell and eternal punishment is just barbaric and cruel. I have to wonder if the Muslim takes these threats seriously and uses the fear of Hell to stay faithful and committed to Islam.

*************************

v163:

We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

Mr Spencer, are all these biblical characters considered ‘prophets’ in Islam? If Jesus was revered as a prophet, what does Islam teach about him specifically? So far, all we have learned is that he somehow escaped crucifiction. What else does Islam teach about Jesus and his teachings? For instance, would Islam revere Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount?

*********************

Mr Spencer, One more question. V171 is powerful. It in no uncertain terms says that Jesus is in no way the Son of Allah, and that Allah is one God. But, it also says that Jesus is Messiah. You also stated in your essay that Muhammed declared that Jesus will return to Earth someday to Islamicise the world. Does Islam currently teach that Jesus, while not God’s son, was still a Messiah figure of some kind who will return again to Earth in judgement?

Thanks again for your effort.