Zogby poll: 42% of Democrats think Bush either caused 9/11 or let it happen

posted at 3:46 pm on September 6, 2007 by Allahpundit

I guess we should be grateful it’s not a clear majority, eh? You can thank the turds at 9/11 Truth for commissioning the poll; SLC spotted it earlier and has since been digesting the numbers. Spend some time with the data, paying special attention to question 402 starting on page 5 of the PDF. The results run on for several pages as Zogby breaks it down by age, region, religious belief, even gun ownership. The data for party affiliation comes on page 8. Here’s the most interesting bit, though, which I’ve taken the liberty of screencapping and highlighting. Click for large size:

zog002.png

The left has been downright giddy about its stranglehold on the youth vote, but note well the caliber of voter they’re attracting there. Note the result for Hispanics, too. I suspect there’s a fair amount of disgruntlement over unrelated issues, i.e. immigration, bleeding over into perceptions of 9/11 here, maybe not unlike many on the right extrapolating from the Clintons’ general loathsomeness that they must have had Vince Foster whacked. As for the data on Asians, though, I’m at a loss as to how to explain it. Is that immigration backlash too? Are they including south Asians, like Pakistanis, in the group? Hmm.

Update: A nice catch by Slublog from page 6. The Ron Paul candidacy explained:

Chose “Made it Happen”
Progressive/Liberal – 6.7%
Moderate – 5.7%
Conservative/Very Conservative – 5.1%
Libertarian – 11.6%


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Since the truthers make up their “facts”, perhaps they’re making up poll results too?

stonemeister on September 6, 2007 at 3:49 PM

Truthers put their eggs in the wrong basket. Had the LIHOP (let it happen on purpose) truthers remained vigilant and didn’t let the MIHOP (made it happen on purpose) truthers take control; the democrat party could be -really- interesting. But sadly. MIHOP is too ridiculous.

lorien1973 on September 6, 2007 at 3:50 PM

That is disgusting beyond belief.

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 3:51 PM

That’s just a disturbing figure…

Scorched_Earth on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 PM

Proving once again that 75% of those under 25 are either willfully or maliciously stupid…

Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 PM

Mohammad and OBL were to blame for 9/11.

If one were to insist on blaming an American President, which would be wrong, it would make more sense to blame Clinton.

9/11 had been in the planning stage for years and at the time of 9/11 Bush had been President for less than 8 months and Clinton had just been President for 8 years.

Do the math.

MB4 on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 PM

I can’t help but notice that under the 18-24 age cohort, you have the official story (28%), let it happen (72%), made it happen (no response) and not sure (no response).

None in that cohort believed that Bush was behind this? This is the only cohort that doesn’t have a response in that category. Curious.

lawhawk on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 PM

Good to know that kids who were 12-18 when it happened are so enlightened.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM

I blame Bush.

Marvin Bush.

JammieWearingFool on September 6, 2007 at 3:55 PM

Zogby poll: 42% of Democrats think Bush either caused 9/11 or let it happen

This is where I always show up with the inevitable “told ya so!”, and point out that this “movement” has far from reached it’s peak… we’re still headed for 50/50 public endorsement of some form of Trutherism, I say within a decade.

RightWinged on September 6, 2007 at 3:56 PM

Good to know that kids who were 12-18 when it happened are so enlightened.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM

Excellent point.

IrishEi on September 6, 2007 at 3:57 PM

Actually, the last numbers were 35% of Democrats were insane/thought this way; or was it 35 of all Americans?

Simply means more of them have gone over the edge.

JammieWearingFool on September 6, 2007 at 3:57 PM

It looks like to me that the more education one has, the more likely one will believe the official story. As income/education increases, the percentage of those who believe the official story increases. That is a very telling statistic about the “truthers.” It’s only the uneducated who believe that we either “let it happen” or “made it happen.” (read: Truthers are uneducated idiots).

pullingmyhairout on September 6, 2007 at 3:58 PM

Zogby poll: 42% of Democrats think Bush either caused 9/11 or let it happen

In other words, 42% of Democrats are IDGITS.

Troy Rasmussen on September 6, 2007 at 3:58 PM

El Chupacabra was behind 9/11.

Dash on September 6, 2007 at 3:59 PM

Dear Lord! Mind-boggling. I’m at a loss for words.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 3:59 PM

Here is the question.

402. There are three main schools of thought regarding the 9/11 attacks. The first theory is the official story, and maintains that 19 Arab fundamentalists executed a surprise attack
which caught US intelligence and military forces off guard. The second theory known as Let It Happen argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were
coming but consciously let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives; and the third theory Made It Happen contends that certain US government elements
actively planned or assisted some aspects of the attacks. Based upon your knowledge of 9/11 events and their aftermath, which theory are you more likely to agree with?

Notice that in the first sentence they classify the official story as a theory.

LakeRuins on September 6, 2007 at 4:02 PM

This is where I always show up with the inevitable “told ya so!”, and point out that this “movement” has far from reached it’s peak… we’re still headed for 50/50 public endorsement of some form of Trutherism, I say within a decade.

RightWinged on September 6, 2007 at 3:56 PM

I agree. I believe my children (I have none at the moment) will be taught some form of trutherism in school.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 4:03 PM

What I found interesting was on page 6, which breaks it down by ideology.

Chose “Made it Happen”
Progressive/Liberal – 6.7%
Moderate – 5.7%
Conservative/Very Conservative – 5.1%
Libertarian – 11.6%

Slublog on September 6, 2007 at 4:07 PM

Good to know that kids who were 12-18 when it happened are so enlightened.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM

In their moron-defense, they did hear about it on the intertubez so it has to be true!

Hoodlumman on September 6, 2007 at 4:08 PM

In other words, 42% of Democrats are IDGITS.

Troy Rasmussen on September 6, 2007 at 3:58 PM

Um, no…42% of democrats are screaming imbecilic retards, the rest are IDGITS…

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:09 PM

I agree. I believe my children (I have none at the moment) will be taught some form of trutherism in school.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 4:03 PM

Only if you are actually stupid enough to let them go to a public school.

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:11 PM

What, exactly, were the numbers Zogby was telling us that Kerry was going to win by again?

Discredited on that, discredited on this. Come on. Guess what percentage of people will tell you that the Feds are covering up Area 51 and UFOs, too. I’d bet the numbers shake out about the same.

Meryl Yourish on September 6, 2007 at 4:13 PM

Only if you are actually stupid enough to let them go to a public school.

Our minister of education and propaganda admitted yesterday in an op-ed that they are introducing environmentalism in every grade, just to reinforce it, making it part of the core subjects, along with math, english, french, and art.

my daughter will be getting her science and math education at home…

Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on September 6, 2007 at 4:16 PM

Um, no…42% of democrats are screaming imbecilic retards, the rest are IDGITS…

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:09 PM

Touche!

I was trying to be polite, but I will admit, you are closer to the truth.

Troy Rasmussen on September 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM

Trutherism – bringing Christians and atheists together!

Born Again – Yes
Official Story – 68.1%
Let it Happen – 20%
Made it Happen – 2.8%

Born Again – No
Official Story – 70.6%
Let it Happen – 20.2%
Made it Happen – 6%

Slublog on September 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM

Maybe Meryl, but lets not forget, we’ve seen polls that estimate Trutherism pretty high already, so I’m not ready to discount this entirely because its Zogby(though you take any Zogby poll with a big grain of salt).

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 4:19 PM

Looks like Trey and Matt, need to come up with another “Truther” episode for “South Park.”

Troy Rasmussen on September 6, 2007 at 4:20 PM

This poll cannot be right. Most people don’t know anything about WTC7. Zero. Most people don’t know there was a WTC7. Plus, 1000 people just doesn’t qualify as a valid sample. Take this with a pound of salt. A Zogby poll commissioned by Troofers just happens to find that 72% of people 18-24 think Bush LIHOP?? It’s just too convenient. These suckers were cherry-picked by Zogby and frog-marched through leading questions. I don’t buy a word of it.

What percentage of 18-24 even know who the president is? Remember that HA post with the video that showed college students who didn’t know what year 9/11 happened? And these were college students. Yet Zogby wants me to believe that 72% of 18-24 year olds believe in the LIHOP myth? Puh-leez! This is Troofer porn pure and simple.

If another poll provides similiar numbers I’ll consider believing it. But this is a Zogby-Troofer propaganda designed to be released near the 9/11 anniversary as part of their hateful agenda. I’m a pessimist and a misanthrope but even I don’t think people are this freakin’ stupid. Nice try Zogby, you spineless cretin.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 4:22 PM

Good to know that kids who were 12-18 when it happened are so enlightened.

thebrokenchair on September 6, 2007 at 3:54 PM

You know why this is? I guarantee you its because kids online get bombarded with Truther propaganda. The Truther pigs are as tenacious online as the Ron Paul robots, and much more numerous.

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 4:23 PM

How wonderfully convenient that they have forgotten the Clinton/Gore administration and its responsibility for 9/11. They were woefully ignorant and inactive in figting terrorism.

katieanne on September 6, 2007 at 4:24 PM

When people truly believe in nothing, they’ll believe in anything.

Asher on September 6, 2007 at 4:34 PM

The lady … well, ok, not “lady” … the *female* across the street from me thinks Bush “did 9/11″. I always thought she was a moron, now I know.

When I debated her about it she tried to change the subject and weasel out of it. These idiots have no idea what the hell they’re talkin’ about. All they know is that they hate Bush, therefore he must’ve done it.

Tony737 on September 6, 2007 at 4:42 PM

Trutherism – bringing Christians and atheists together!

Born Again – Yes
Official Story – 68.1%
Let it Happen – 20%
Made it Happen – 2.8%

Born Again – No
Official Story – 70.6%
Let it Happen – 20.2%
Made it Happen – 6%

Slublog on September 6, 2007 at 4:17 PM

Heretic…may Allahpundit strike you down……..

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:44 PM

If another poll provides similiar numbers I’ll consider believing it. But this is a Zogby-Troofer propaganda designed to be released near the 9/11 anniversary as part of their hateful agenda. I’m a pessimist and a misanthrope but even I don’t think people are this freakin’ stupid. Nice try Zogby, you spineless cretin.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 4:22 PM

I wish I could believe that people really weren’t that stupid but experience tells me other wise.

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:46 PM

Heretic…may Allahpundit strike you down……..

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:44 PM

opps, that was suppose to be Allahpundit strike you down……..

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 4:47 PM

This is just more proof that the Democratic Party needs to be outlawed, their funds and property seized, and the DNC HQ in DC imploded and redeveloped as a hot dog stand.

I only ask that the building be filled with “truthers” before they set the charges off. Gots to give them something for their delusions.

georgej on September 6, 2007 at 4:47 PM

I’d bet the numbers shake out about the same.

I bet you’re right.

My dad always used to say that he didn’t know how many truly stupid people there were (and how truly stupid people could be) until he enlisted in the Air Force and met some real winners in basic training. There have always been stupid people amongst us, only nowadays they have a forum–the internet.

Woe is me!

Bob's Kid on September 6, 2007 at 4:48 PM

One reason I know this poll is wrong: if 42% of Dems in fact did believe Bush LIHOP then at least one candidate would say so, trying to get their votes. The campaigns are constantly running real polls of just Democratic voters, constantly searching for some niche to tap, for some as-yet unseen advantage. These are serious, hard-nosed polls by people whose future careers depend on mining the polling data accurately.

If 42% of Dems really in fact believed this then some candidate would jump all over it. People win primaries with less than 42% of the vote. A second-tier candidate would seize this in an attempt to break out of the pack. The fact that no candidate, front runners, second tier or lunatic fringe has addressed this tells me that internal polling doesn’t show anything like these numbers.

This is a Troofer fairy tale, a fiction, a wet dream. My subscription to The Incredible Hulk has more basis in reality.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 4:49 PM

Our minister of education and propaganda admitted yesterday in an op-ed that they are introducing environmentalism in every grade, just to reinforce it, making it part of the core subjects, along with math, english, french, and art.

Yep, here too. New law. I am supposed to be piloting some of the lessons for science, and am very interested in how much crap will be included.

Bob's Kid on September 6, 2007 at 4:50 PM

How are rational people supposed to deal with Troofers? How can listening to them lead to anything productive, when their entire logic is so far off base? All you can do is slap them in the face with cold hard facts, which they then counter with their own ridiculous fairy tale ones. There is no way to get them to accept a logical, rational point. The fact that Ron Paul and a lot of Democrats take them seriously is highly disturbing.

BadgerHawk on September 6, 2007 at 4:56 PM

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 4:49 PM

I disagree, its still shameful to be openly Truther at this point, and it would damage the Dems in 08.

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 4:58 PM

Get ready for President Hillary, everybody, for the GOP has lost a generation of Hispanic voters over the unrealistic hard-line stance they have of shipping everyone back to Mexico. Gays have already abandoned the GOP over their stance on gay marriage because they can see the bigotry behind it, just as the Hispanics see the GOP bigotry behind the whole “shamnesty” debate. Whatever happened to that “Big Tent”?

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 4:58 PM

This is the Scott Thomas Beauchamp of polls. By the end of next week half a dozen stat geeks will blast hole all through this.

Does anyone here really believe that 19% of Republicans think Bush ‘Let It Happen’ or ‘Made It Happen’? Or that 6% of Republicans ‘Aren’t Sure’? C’mon! One out of four Republicans?! That’s pure, refined, industrial-strength, crap.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 5:00 PM

This is just more proof that the Democratic Party needs to be outlawed, their funds and property seized, and the DNC HQ in DC imploded and redeveloped as a hot dog stand.

I only ask that the building be filled with “truthers” before they set the charges off. Gots to give them something for their delusions.

georgej on September 6, 2007 at 4:47 PM

dag nabit georgej I got Stone Ruination IPA all over my monitor and keyboard now……..

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 5:05 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 4:58 PM

Glad you can stay on topic. First off, thats crap, amnesty would’ve sunk us to permanent minority party anyway, so Hill would have won anyway, and the Dems would rule as one party for generations. FAIL

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 5:06 PM

I disagree, its still shameful to be openly Truther at this point, and it would damage the Dems in 08.

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 4:58 PM

But if this poll were accurate it wouldn’t be shameful because something like 20% of Americans would be Troofers or near-Troofers. If this poll was accurate there would be more Troofers than Blacks and Asians combined. If this poll were accurate there would be many times more Troofers than gays and Mormons combined. Tens of millions of Troofers and sympathizers. Does that pass the smell test to you? To me it stinks like rotten, maggot-infested meat.

Trooferism is shameful because in reality Troofers and their fellow travellers are a small, small minority of loud, stupid tools. It’s shameful because most people will eagerly shout down the Troofers for what they are: evil idiots.

Thomas the Wraith on September 6, 2007 at 5:10 PM

Proving once again that 75% of those under 25 are either willfully or maliciously stupid…

Canadian Imperialist Running Dog on September 6, 2007 at 3:52 PM

Dumber than a box of sinkers. And to think these excrement heads can vote.

saiga on September 6, 2007 at 5:12 PM

Get ready for President Hillary, everybody, for the GOP has lost a generation of Hispanic Plantation owner voters over the unrealistic hard-line just very mild stance they have of shipping everyone some of their serfs back to Mexico.

MB4 on September 6, 2007 at 5:13 PM

it is truly depressing to be living in this incredible nation, with an amazing document (Declaration of Independence) and have this level of stupidity – or willful ignorance. I think public school can take a huge percentage of the blame – taking the kids away from their parents and indoctrinating them from a young age. And we allow it! Too many people can’t believe that there is another way but this form of schooling/indoctrination has only been around for a hundred years or so. And kids are not taught anything important but how to be drones and perfect consumers willing to work crappy jobs in order to buy crappy products and be happy (but we’re not happy!), that nothing is important (the bell system saying you must stop whatever it is you are doing and move onto the next torture chamber – like Pavlov’s dog!) Today’s society has such a short attention span and, unfortunately, the war wasn’t over in two hours. Truthers are the end result.

Blight on September 6, 2007 at 5:13 PM

I do give AP props for the title of this thread. 42% sounds a lot better than “6% of Democrats believe Bush caused 9/11.”

Nonfactor on September 6, 2007 at 5:14 PM

Get ready for President Hillary, everybody, for the GOP has lost a generation of Hispanic Plantation owner voters over the unrealistic hard-line just very mild stance they have of shipping everyone some of their serfs back to Mexico.

MB4 on September 6, 2007 at 5:13 PM

Meh…I hate it when you say things that I actually agree with, it makes it so damn hard to ignore you for the retard I am sure you are…

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 5:17 PM

Blight on September 6, 2007 at 5:13 PM

Public schools will be the death of this nation, you can thank the democrats for that……

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Brainwashing at an early age still works and the dems are exploiting it. If you go to the KOS site, it is nothing but hate and rage being a group thing. Democracy has many enemies.

volsense on September 6, 2007 at 5:19 PM

I guess we shouldn’t worry so much about the “browning of America”, but should focus on the “lobotomizing of America”.

With a public so stupid, we may be more effective with the Middle East as we sink to the same intellectual level.

saiga on September 6, 2007 at 5:19 PM

What was it Charles Manson said?

saiga on September 6, 2007 at 5:23 PM

Glad you can stay on topic. First off, thats crap, amnesty would’ve sunk us to permanent minority party anyway, so Hill would have won anyway, and the Dems would rule as one party for generations. FAIL

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 5:06 PM

AP brought up Hispanic attitudes toward the GOP, so I believe it is on topic. And who fed you that crap that so-called amnesty would ruin the GOP? Talk radio? So alienating a huge voting block in the much-coveted southwestern states is going to save the GOP? New Mexico is going blue next year, and likely Colorado and Nevada too. Don’t even dream about California either, for the GOP will always cede those 55 electoral votes from the start every election. Ex-Gov. Pete Wilson’s hard-line on immigration is to thank from that.

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 5:24 PM

Immigration cheaters are cheaters and do not disserve anything other than deportation. Legal immigrants should be touted as the future of our country. If the voting Hispanic population can’t understand that, they too will have the third world future they disserve.

Many immigrants come here to flee corruption. Pandering to criminals promotes corruption, plain and simple.

saiga on September 6, 2007 at 5:30 PM

LakeRuins on September 6, 2007 at 4:02 PM

If I’m understanding correctly and LakeRuins was posting the question as asked in the poll, it’s easy to see how the numbers could get so high.

It asks if you believe “that certain elements in the US government” let/made it happen.

This means that if I believe George Bush lit the dynamite himself, I can say yes. If I believe Bill Cllinton ‘let it happen’ because he was too busy with interns to capture Osama, I can say yes. If I believe that there are members of the US government that look like ordinary government appointees, congressmen and janitors that are actually part of a shadow government that planned the whole thing, I can say yes.

In short, we know that a certain amount of people don’t believe the official story, but we don’t know what that breakdown of people is. It’d be wrong to assume that all of those people believe the Trooooother’s version of events.

It’s the same thing that happens with media polls about approval about Bush’s handling of the Iraq war. If I say that I disagree with his handling of the Iraq war, when they report the result, they say “X% of people disapprove of Bush’s handling of the war and want him to withdraw”. It doesn’t matter if I disapprove because I think we should send in far more troops, be much more aggressive with insurgents and their supporters and that Bush should do a much better job of promoting the successes of the war……as long as I say no, they assume that I must support the Democratic party platform.

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 5:31 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 5:24 PM

Are you saying 12 to 40 million new voters who would mostly vote Democrat wouldn’t ruin the GOP? Colorado was going blue anyway, NM was too, California is called the People’s Republic of Cali for a reason. They were all trending left, and continue to do so.

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 5:33 PM

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 5:33 PM

I don’t have any actual data (so, take this with a huge helping of salt) but anecdotal evidence is that a lot of Californians are moving to surrounding SW states. There are now whole areas in Nevada and Arizona that are basically retirement communities for wealthy Californians. I guarantee those folks aren’t going to stop voting Democrat just because they moved to a state that used to be more conservative. If the migration of people from California to surrounding areas is large enough, this alone could account for a trend in these states from mildly red to mildly blue.

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 5:37 PM

The Sinner – Bad Candy Don’t give up too easy. You might just be suprized what happens with the GOP in the next few years. When the going gets tough, the Republicans have the brains to make things happen and get things done. All the dems can do is bitch. They have shown it many times. Unfortunately, it looks like the going is going to get tough sooner rather than later.

saiga on September 6, 2007 at 5:37 PM

Are you saying 12 to 40 million new voters who would mostly vote Democrat wouldn’t ruin the GOP?

Bad Candy on September 6, 2007 at 5:33 PM

Tell that to Dick Morris. And say adios to that voting block forever.

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 5:48 PM

Whatever happened to that “Big Tent”?

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 4:58 PM
I would rather belong to a minority party with principles. The DIMS may win big in the next election but sooner or later common sense will triumph again.

SIJ6141 on September 6, 2007 at 5:50 PM

I’m surprised that the Black numbers were not the same as the Asian and Hispanics. Could this be the only anti-Bush conspiracy theory my fellow African Americans aren’t buying.

Zaire67 on September 6, 2007 at 5:57 PM

Public schools will be the death of this nation, you can thank the democrats for that……

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 5:19 PM

Agree. Of all the methods used by the Democrats to gain influence nothing has propelled their socialist / Godless agenda more than the public schools. Turning our children’s minds over to government indoctrination each day has led to a generation with no concept of American values or the Constitutional mechanisms that allow them to work. The public schools have been worse than a total failure. We really need to get government completely out of education, they never had Constitutional authority for it in the first place.

Maxx on September 6, 2007 at 5:58 PM

I’m surprised that the Black numbers were not the same as the Asian and Hispanics. Could this be the only anti-Bush conspiracy theory my fellow African Americans aren’t buying.

Zaire67 on September 6, 2007 at 5:57 PM

Na, you guys were just disenfranchised again…Opp’s did I actually post that???

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 6:00 PM

I would rather belong to a minority party with principles have no hispanics or gays in the GOP. The DIMS may win big in the next election but sooner or later common sense will triumph again.

SIJ6141 on September 6, 2007 at 5:50 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 6:01 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 6:01 PM

Put the crack pipe down and back slowly away from it..oh hell no run for your life from it…

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 6:03 PM

SIJ6141 on September 6, 2007 at 5:50 PM

Should we also go for the incarcerated criminal vote by having the President pardon everyone currently in jail? That’ll have the added bonus of allowing the President to brag that he solved the prison crowding issue.

If I’ve lost the illegal immigrant vote by saying no to amnesty, GOOD. They’re not supposed to vote. As for losing the vote of hispanics (and anyone else) that thinks that anyone anywhere has the right to come to the US and violate our border/SS laws/labor laws/etc just because they feel like it, I couldn’t care less. I’d be willing to bet my life savings that most of those people were not conservatives to begin with.

As far as your implication that we’ve lost “the hispanics” because we didn’t support amnesty for illegals, you seem to imply that all hispanics vote the same and that this is their most important issue. I’m in SoCal and know plenty of Hispanics that run the gamut from 2nd/3rd/4th generation American to recent legal immigrant that don’t support illegal immigration. They all played by the rules (if not them, then their parents/grandparents) and they don’t see why anyone else should cut in line.

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 6:14 PM

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 6:14 PM

You tell en Jade…….

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 6:18 PM

It’s only a Zogby poll.(apologies to The Beatles)
Randy

williars on September 6, 2007 at 6:23 PM

JadeNYU,
Why put words in my mouth ? I am only saying that somewhere we have to draw a line. I welcome Hispanics, gays and everybody else (even MUSLIMS) in the party if they have the same conservative values and believes most of us have. What is wring with that ?

SIJ6141 on September 6, 2007 at 6:34 PM

The poll really doesn’t make sense does it?

The primary truther rhetoric is “Made it happen” – but by far, more people believe we “Let it happen” – those are two totally distinct beliefs. Why are there far more “made it happen” videos and sites than “let it happen”?

RP would be a “let it happen” truther. Loose change/Michael Moore etal would be a “made it happen” truther. Totally distinct concepts.

Do people honestly believe that, or is “let it happen” more pallatable when asked from someone they dont know?

lorien1973 on September 6, 2007 at 6:48 PM

The key to this poll, as in all polls, is in the wording of the questions. Those being polled were given three options, but notice the wording used to describe the first two options. For the “official story”, particularly this:

19 Arab fundamentalists executed a surprise attack which caught US intelligence and military forces off guard

Then, compare it to the wording used to describe the second option, in particular, these words:

The second theory known as Let It Happen argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming

NOTE – Nothing in option #2 says – Let it Happen ON PURPOSE, instead they use the much harder to parse “consciously let them proceed”.

Now, being asked this, especially by someone on the phone who simply read you the answers, I can see how a significant number of people would think to themselves: “Hmm, our intelligence and military folks are pretty good, so I am betting that someone, somewhere probably had some hint or inkling that something was in the works prior to 9/11. Therefore, it wasn’t a total 100% surprise.”

They would continue to mull it around in their mind and think: “Well, we know that nothing was done ahead of time to stop it, so someone, somewhere, somehow had some idea and either didn’t or couldn’t do anything about it.”. Therefore, my answer is number 2. Not a 100% complete surprise and nothing happened to stop it, so #2 is the best answer.”

I have no doubt that lots of folks here can see how that could happen, and that’s why polls like this are useless and really don’t reflect anything other than its hard to fully understand polls like this, especially when things are phrased in this manner over the phone!

Fatal on September 6, 2007 at 6:49 PM

Put the crack pipe down and back slowly away from it..oh hell no run for your life from it…

doriangrey on September 6, 2007 at 6:03 PM

do you have anything substantive to add to this discussion besides stupid unfunny jokes and “you go girl” shout outs? what are you 12 years old?

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 6:50 PM

This is just more proof that the Democratic Party needs to be outlawed, their funds and property seized, and the DNC HQ in DC imploded and redeveloped as a hot dog stand.

I only ask that the building be filled with “truthers” before they set the charges off. Gots to give them something for their delusions.

georgej on September 6, 2007 at 4:47 PM

Good grief. Do you live on an Aryan compound somewhere in Idaho?

Fatal on September 6, 2007 at 6:49 PM

Good points.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:05 PM

Should we also go for the incarcerated criminal vote by having the President pardon everyone currently in jail? That’ll have the added bonus of allowing the President to brag that he solved the prison crowding issue.

has anyone reported a straw man missing? here he is!

If I’ve lost the illegal immigrant vote by saying no to amnesty, GOOD. They’re not supposed to vote. As for losing the vote of hispanics (and anyone else) that thinks that anyone anywhere has the right to come to the US and violate our border/SS laws/labor laws/etc just because they feel like it, I couldn’t care less. I’d be willing to bet my life savings that most of those people were not conservatives to begin with

You are right about one thing, illegal immigrants don’t vote. It’s the hypocrisy of blasting illegals while still hiring them to mow your lawn plus the perceived (whether true or not) underlying racialist persecution of fellow hispanics (legal or not) by that has lost Hispanics like me for the GOP.

As far as your implication that we’ve lost “the hispanics” because we didn’t support amnesty for illegals, you seem to imply that all hispanics vote the same and that this is their most important issue. I’m in SoCal and know plenty of Hispanics that run the gamut from 2nd/3rd/4th generation American to recent legal immigrant that don’t support illegal immigration. They all played by the rules (if not them, then their parents/grandparents) and they don’t see why anyone else should cut in line.

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 6:14 PM

Wow you are so worldly! I am sure the polls and actual 2006 voting results are all wrong then. “but but but some of my best friends are (blank)” is always an indication you have lost your argument.

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 7:07 PM

Allah

Please provide the poll that showed that 42% or so of Republicans believed that the Clintons had Vince Foster killed.

If you can’t find one I’d like to ask you to stop smearing Republicans

Capitalist Infidel on September 6, 2007 at 7:09 PM

NOTE – Nothing in option #2 says – Let it Happen ON PURPOSE, instead they use the much harder to parse “consciously let them proceed”.

Er, no. You’re bowdlerizing the question. Here’s the full question, emphasis mine:

“Let It Happen argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but consciously let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives

Allahpundit on September 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 7:07 PM

I think it is reasonable to say that the rhetoric was excessive by some on both sides. But fair or not the Republicans have most of those attributed to them. I don’t think the Republicans will get the same percentages Bush brought in, maybe as much as 15%, which could tip the scales in some states.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM

If you can’t find one I’d like to ask you to stop smearing Republicans

It seems that all you ever do is accuse me of smearing Republicans. I didn’t say that 42% of Republicans think the Clintons killed Vince Foster. I said that disliking people for one thing can lead you to think they’re culpable in other things.

Allahpundit on September 6, 2007 at 7:11 PM

Allahpundit on September 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM

I’d prefer to see a poll question that simply asks “Yes or no, Do you believe the US government was involved in the planning and execution of the 9-11 attacks”

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:13 PM

The shame is the democrats consider this good news.

right2bright on September 6, 2007 at 7:23 PM

I think it is reasonable to say that the rhetoric was excessive by some on both sides. But fair or not the Republicans have most of those attributed to them. I don’t think the Republicans will get the same percentages Bush brought in, maybe as much as 15%, which could tip the scales in some states.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:10 PM

You are dead-on, and that is a plunging of 30%(!) in just 3 years. The talk radio crowd doesn’t seem to comprehend the damage they are doing, but I am sure Hillary’s electoral vote victories in Nevada, Colorado and New Mexico will be a huge reality check.

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 7:27 PM

Allahpundit

I disagree. I was pointing out that theory #2 is commonly known as the “Let It Happen On Purpose” concept and yet that language did not appear anywhere in the question. The only language in that question that could even conceivably communicate the concept of “on purpose” was those I noted “consciously let them proceed”. The rest of it: “for various political, military and economic motives” is just the “why”.

If the poll designers wanted to allow people to really understand what theory #2 was, they should have said something more along the lines of:

The second theory known as Let It Happen On Purpose argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but consciously purposely let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives;

The fact that they didn’t do that just added to the liklihood that people would pick that choice without really understanding what the pollsters were driving at. If they hadn’t wanted to skew the poll, they would not have played around with the language on choice #2.

Fatal on September 6, 2007 at 7:36 PM

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 7:27 PM

I didn’t describe the numbers very well. I think they could lose as much as 15% but not drop to 15%. That would still be a major blow for the state we mentioned.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:38 PM

The rest of it: “for various political, military and economic motives” is just the “why”.

Yes, the “why” is the purpose. The let it happen for “various political, military and economic motives,” i.e. on purpose. I don’t follow your distinction at all.

Allahpundit on September 6, 2007 at 7:39 PM

I think they could lose as much as 15% but not drop to 15%. That would still be a major blow for the state we mentioned.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 7:38 PM

Indeed. Hispanic support for Republicans dropped exactly 15% from 2004-2006. That number only seems more likely to grow thanks to the talk radio crowd.

The Sinner on September 6, 2007 at 7:54 PM

AllahP

I “get” that adding “for various political, military and economic motives” clarifies the term “consciously let them proceed” in your mind to be equivalent to “on purpose”.

However, I was just pointing out how someone else might be confused by the use of the term “conciously let them proceed” instead of “did it on purpose”! I am not sure why there is a disagreement here unless you don’t think there is anyway possible that someone would take:

The second theory known as Let It Happen argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but consciously let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives

as meaning something different than:

The second theory known as Let It Happen On Purpose argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but purposely let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives

I think that there are lots of folks out there who would think to themselves: “Hmm, I can “consciously” do something, without doing it “on purpose”. I can “consciously” bump into you because we were in a crowded elevator, but that doesn’t mean I did it “on purpose”.

So, by using terminology different than “Let It Happen On Purpose”, the poll allowed a different meaning to be conveyed than many people understand “on purpose” to mean even if they addended a “why” to it.

Fatal on September 6, 2007 at 8:18 PM

SIJ6141 on September 6, 2007 at 6:34 PM

Sorry. I grabbed the wrong name to quote. I was actually responding to The Sinner.

has anyone reported a straw man missing? here he is!

Actually, you’re incorrect. It’s not a straw man as I never claimed that’s what you were arguing for. It’s close to a slippery slope argument, but, as I’m not saying that amnesty leads to full pardons for everyone in prison, it’s NOT a slippery slope either.

You seemed to me (perhaps my interpretation was incorrect) to be arguing that opposing illegal immigration was wrong because it would/is cause/ing the Republican party to lose the Hispanic vote. This implication being that we shouldn’t enforce the law or punish a people for their criminal acts (and yes, illegally crossing the border IS a criminal action and is often, though not always, accompanied by other criminal acts such as document fraud, identity theft, driving without insurance, etc) because the Republican party would lose votes.

I was simply extending your point to other criminals that might be more inclined to vote Republican if Republicans were to ‘amnesty’ them of their crimes.

Is it a more extreme example? Absolutely. But the point remains that you think it’s alright to pardon crimes to get votes. I guess that, from your opposition to my example, you have a sliding scale of which crimes are eligible for pardoning in order to influence voting blocs (those related to illegal immigration) and which are not (all others).

You are right about one thing, illegal immigrants don’t vote.

They are not supposed to vote. In most states, all that’s required to register to vote is a valid driver’s license. 10 states currently allow illegal aliens to acquire state issued ids that are identical to those that any citizen could get. These can easily be used to register to vote. You can’t prevent an illegal from voting when you can’t distinguish them from anyone else. I’m sure that the fact it’s illegal for a non-citizen to vote will stop them from doing it. They showed so much respect for US laws when they crossed the border (or overstayed their visas).

Furthermore, even when illegals don’t vote in elections, they still influence elections by increasing the population in census data. A bigger population equals a larger number of reps in congress.

It’s the hypocrisy of blasting illegals while still hiring them to mow your lawn

Actually, my cousin Jason mows my lawn. He’s got a lawn mowing business (which struggles because his prices are way undercut by illegals that offer to do the same work but don’t have to build taxes and employee benefits into their profit margin). You are right though. My cousin’s lawnmowing business employs quite a few hispanic immigrants because he’s found they are extremely hard working. The only catch is that all of his employees are legal immigrants.

that has lost Hispanics like me for the GOP.

Wait! Is this where I get all insulting and say “Wow! You are so worldly!”? I’m sorry. You should have told me that you were Hispanic. Afterall, “I’m a blank” is a much stronger argument than “Many of my friends are blanks” Looks like we were both operating off of anecdotal evidence. The only difference is that I wasn’t being a bastard about it.

Wow you are so worldly! I am sure the polls and actual 2006 voting results are all wrong then. “but but but some of my best friends are (blank)” is always an indication you have lost your argument.

How did the amnesty debate of 2007 affect the outcome of the 2006 midterm election? Time machines?!? Besides, NBC told me that Republicans lost the 2006 elections because of Iraq or Mark Foley or any number of other issues that NBC disagrees with Republicans on. I don’t remember illegal immigration even being mentioned on their list.

As far as losing the argument goes, there’s not much to lose as it’s not much of an argument.

You claim that Republicans are doomed to lose “the Hispanic vote” because we didn’t pass amnesty and cite as evidence the fact that you’re a Hispanic that left the party because we wouldn’t reward lawbreakers with US citizenship.

I’m sorry if I give the Hispanic community more credit than you do. I don’t see them as some monolithic, single issue voting bloc the way you do.

Are we going to lose some of them? Sure. Every time a party takes a stand on any issue they are going to win some votes and lose some votes. What you are forgetting with your argument is that the Republican party stands to lose far more votes by violating a core Republican value and rewarding lawbreakers while simultaneously devaluing US citizenship than they stand to gain.

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 8:51 PM

Blight on September 6, 2007 at 9:01 PM

(This is possibly a duplicate post – if so, sorry!)

Blight on September 6, 2007 at 9:19 PM

JadeNYU on September 6, 2007 at 8:51 PM

There is quite a difference between losing votes of people who want blanket amnesty for illegals versus allowing some of the fearmongering that occurred about Hispanics in general causing LEGAL Hispanic voters who had been trending Republican to go with a different party.

Bradky on September 6, 2007 at 9:49 PM

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